National Rifle Association Calls For Armed Guards In U S Schools

[FritsSikkink]

Isn't that the kind of "police state" the right wing nutters are all so afraid off?

Oh no...it is their own crazy people, who guard schools with guns...and malls with guns...and football- matches with guns...and cinemas with guns....

Here is a little thought experiment: Sandy Hook...the guy takes a GUN, from HIS MOTHERS HOUSE...puts on a BULLET- PROOF VEST....and thanks to MOMS SHOOTING TRAINING, takes out the 2 guards from a distance...then set out on his killing spree!

What then???

Armed neighborhood patrol?

24/7?

But guess what: the crazy guy STILL had the bullet- proof vest. So...he takes out the neighborhood watch from a distance (remember? he can shoot, thanks to the loonie mother! ) and goes on a killing spree as planned!

What then???

When will you FINALLY accept, that no gun, no guard, will guarantee safety?

He could even take the guards out and steal their guns!

But having his mom denied the guns, on the basis of stricter laws and background checks, would have made it more difficult for him, to get the hands on the guns! is that so hard to understand?

No gun- sales at gun -shows, no second- hand gun dealing to UNCHECKED and UNLICENSED people...might have done the trick!

No,no....you need MORE guns!

Another thought- experiment:

100 people on a lonely island....1 gun! Probability of gun accidents: low!

100 people on a lonely island...50 guns! Probability of gun accident: high!

100 people on a lonely island...100 guns! ...figure it out!

It DOESN'T WORK the other way around!

It is called "logical thinking"!

errm... excuse me but I would dare to say that after applying logic and reason that "100 people on a lonely island...100 guns!" would result in a low probability of gun incidents (let's not disguise the word "accident" as an "incident" in which the shootings were premeditated) because when everyone knows that everyone else is packing a weapon then the likelihood of an attack upon a person or persons would be likely to backfire!

No somebody just shoots first

[chuckd]

.....

There are normally armed police officers at any sort of house fire. I don't know where they were in the latest incident.

....

My buddy is a volunteer fireman in Texas. There's absolutely NO truth to what you claim to be 'normal' with regard to the presence of armed police officers. They may come along beforehand or shortly but in general, the FD is the 'first responder'.

I never claimed the police arrived before the fire department vehicles. The police are NORMALLY at a fire scene if for no other reason than to direct traffic and NORMALLY arrive as soon as is possible.

Please thank your buddy for his service.

[Jingthing]

I think (and hope) the NRA's extreme no compromise reaction to the current discussion on gun control ... BACKFIRES! The mainstream of America is ready to make some changes. Not radical changes, not nearly enough changes, but something.

[Neurath]

It would actually be a great victory for the hardcore NRA membership if they could get armed guards in place at every school in the USA, perhaps along with all shopping malls, theaters, childrens play areas, in fact any area where children might be found in numbers. After all, if children grow up surrounded by armed guards it'll help install the paranoia that attack is imminent and no doubt they'll all grow up wanting to be armed to the teeth themselves.

Little Johnny grows up dreaming of one day being a lauded hero by saving friends, family and acquaintances from threatening gunman wielding weapons at the ready. Johnny dreams of the accolades and the interviews and the fame. But these opportunities don't come around easily or often and Johnny is having difficulty getting himself into a position where he can wallow in that fame and that praise. Oh well, have to settle for the fame/infamy them - school shooting. Probably each shooter dreams of being the lone hero - the one who stops the bad guy with the gun by being the good guy with the gun.

Complete bullshit example. What you're describe is mental illness. So now we're blaming guns for mental illness! Haha

Sure, partly I am.

Fact is, these shooters are almost universally male.

Mental illness? Well, maybe so:

Edited December 26, 2012 by Scott

[gl555]

It would actually be a great victory for the hardcore NRA membership if they could get armed guards in place at every school in the USA, perhaps along with all shopping malls, theaters, childrens play areas, in fact any area where children might be found in numbers. After all, if children grow up surrounded by armed guards it'll help install the paranoia that attack is imminent and no doubt they'll all grow up wanting to be armed to the teeth themselves.

Little Johnny grows up dreaming of one day being a lauded hero by saving friends, family and acquaintances from threatening gunman wielding weapons at the ready. Johnny dreams of the accolades and the interviews and the fame. But these opportunities don't come around easily or often and Johnny is having difficulty getting himself into a position where he can wallow in that fame and that praise. Oh well, have to settle for the fame/infamy them - school shooting. Probably each shooter dreams of being the lone hero - the one who stops the bad guy with the gun by being the good guy with the gun.

Complete bullshit example. What you're describe is mental illness. So now we're blaming guns for mental illness! Haha

Sure, partly I am.

Fact is, these shooters are almost universally male.

Mental illness? Well, maybe so:

And your point is?

The majority of spree killers and serial killers(not using guns) are also male.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Scott

[Scott]

Posts and replies that are off-topic or who have attracted off-topic responses, have been deleted. Some of the examples used may be relevant, but the thread isn't about drugs, driving offenses, etc.

Please don't call other people trolls. Your post will get deleted. If you don't want to answer, feel free to not post.

[samran]

It would actually be a great victory for the hardcore NRA membership if they could get armed guards in place at every school in the USA, perhaps along with all shopping malls, theaters, childrens play areas, in fact any area where children might be found in numbers. After all, if children grow up surrounded by armed guards it'll help install the paranoia that attack is imminent and no doubt they'll all grow up wanting to be armed to the teeth themselves.

Hey - just like downtown Mogadishu or Baghdad.

[HeijoshinCool]

I'd like one of you who is against gun ownership to rationally articulate your plan on how to remove 300,000,000 guns from the hands of Americans.

Please, in a thousand words or less, tell us.

I see many people and organizations (the Economist most recently, advocating repealling the 2nd amendment) spouting off against guns, rabidly in many cases, but no one has set forth a plan on how to remove all those guns from private hands.

Anyone here volunteering to go door-to-door?

[samran]

I'd like one of you who is against gun ownership to rationally articulate your plan on how to remove 300,000,000 guns from the hands of Americans.

Please, in a thousand words or less, tell us.

I see many people and organizations (the Economist most recently, advocating repealling the 2nd amendment) spouting off against guns, rabidly in many cases, but no one has set forth a plan on how to remove all those guns from private hands.

Anyone here volunteering to go door-to-door?

Four words:

Australian gun buyback programme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_buyback_program#In_Australia

Edited December 26, 2012 by samran

[HeijoshinCool]

I'd like one of you who is against gun ownership to rationally articulate your plan on how to remove 300,000,000 guns from the hands of Americans.

Please, in a thousand words or less, tell us.

I see many people and organizations (the Economist most recently, advocating repealling the 2nd amendment) spouting off against guns, rabidly in many cases, but no one has set forth a plan on how to remove all those guns from private hands.

Anyone here volunteering to go door-to-door?

Four words:

Australian gun buyback programme

http://en.wikipedia....am#In_Australia

Buy back 300 MIILLION guns? Do the math, Samran.

And, what about those who don't want to sell? Got three more words for them?

[GentlemanJim]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Forget Gun control, start some bullet control!

Let the NRA have their wish, Guns for everyone, but lets make bullets $5000 each!

Chris Rock nails it.

[samran]

I'd like one of you who is against gun ownership to rationally articulate your plan on how to remove 300,000,000 guns from the hands of Americans.

Please, in a thousand words or less, tell us.

I see many people and organizations (the Economist most recently, advocating repealling the 2nd amendment) spouting off against guns, rabidly in many cases, but no one has set forth a plan on how to remove all those guns from private hands.

Anyone here volunteering to go door-to-door?

Four words:

Australian gun buyback programme

http://en.wikipedia....am#In_Australia

Buy back 300 MIILLION guns? Do the math, Samran.

And, what about those who don't want to sell? Got three more words for them?

Jail I guess. 3 words.

As for the cost - what price to you wish to apply for each of the 20 children murdered recently?

Edited December 26, 2012 by samran

[HeijoshinCool]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Forget Gun control, start some bullet control!

Let the NRA have their wish, Guns for everyone, but lets make bullets $5000 each!

Chris Rock nails it.

And what about the millions of owners who have endless spent shells, and reloading equipment?

[HeijoshinCool]

I'd like one of you who is against gun ownership to rationally articulate your plan on how to remove 300,000,000 guns from the hands of Americans.

Please, in a thousand words or less, tell us.

I see many people and organizations (the Economist most recently, advocating repealling the 2nd amendment) spouting off against guns, rabidly in many cases, but no one has set forth a plan on how to remove all those guns from private hands.

Anyone here volunteering to go door-to-door?

Four words:

Australian gun buyback programme

http://en.wikipedia....am#In_Australia

Buy back 300 MIILLION guns? Do the math, Samran.

And, what about those who don't want to sell? Got three more words for them?

Jail I guess.

See, that's what I'm talking about.

Millions of unregistered owners. How you gonna find them? Who's going to volunteer to confiscate their guns? The courts are over burdened already. Jails and prisons are overloaded.

No plan. No one has a viable plan.

[GentlemanJim]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Forget Gun control, start some bullet control!

Let the NRA have their wish, Guns for everyone, but lets make bullets $5000 each!

Chris Rock nails it.

And what about the millions of owners who have endless spent shells, and reloading equipment?

[gl555]

I'd like one of you who is against gun ownership to rationally articulate your plan on how to remove 300,000,000 guns from the hands of Americans.

Please, in a thousand words or less, tell us.

I see many people and organizations (the Economist most recently, advocating repealling the 2nd amendment) spouting off against guns, rabidly in many cases, but no one has set forth a plan on how to remove all those guns from private hands.

Anyone here volunteering to go door-to-door?

Four words:

Australian gun buyback programme

http://en.wikipedia....am#In_Australia

Buy back 300 MIILLION guns? Do the math, Samran.

And, what about those who don't want to sell? Got three more words for them?

Jail I guess. 3 words.

As for the cost - what price to you wish to apply for each of the 20 children murdered recently?

In other words, no you don't have a viable plan also.

[samran]

See, that's what I'm talking about.

Millions of unregistered owners. How you gonna find them? Who's going to volunteer to confiscate their guns? The courts are over burdened already. Jails and prisons are overloaded.

No plan. No one has a viable plan.

I guess big ambition is beyond some. A country can send a man to the moon, but throw their hands up of the 'complexity and expense' of a gun buyback.

Money on the table is a huge incentive. It has been done successfully elsewhere. There is a template.

Get the incentives right, other things follow.

BTW - you still haven't given me the calculus of the worth of the lives of those 20 kids.

Edited December 26, 2012 by samran

[HeijoshinCool]

Samran: 1. See, emotional. You are casting aspersions that I care nothing about the lives of little children.

gl555: No, I don't. It's an impossibility. That's my point, no one does. The media and the government don't either. They simply want us all riled up and at each others throats.

[HeijoshinCool]

See, that's what I'm talking about.

Millions of unregistered owners. How you gonna find them? Who's going to volunteer to confiscate their guns? The courts are over burdened already. Jails and prisons are overloaded.

No plan. No one has a viable plan.

I guess big ambition is beyond some. A country can send a man to the moon, but throw their hands up of the 'complexity and expense' of a gun buyback.

Money on the table is a huge incentive. It has been done successfully elsewhere. There is a template.

Get the incentives right, other things follow.

BTW - you still haven't given me the calculus of the worth of the lives of those 20 kids.

It's not just the complexity and expense, it's simply not possible, so why waste more taxpayer money and divide us further?

[samran]

Samran: 1. See, emotional. You are casting aspersions that I care nothing about the lives of little children.

gl555: No, I don't. It's an impossibility. That's my point, no one does. The media and the government don't either. They simply want us all riled up and at each others throats.

Never said you didn't care.

All I am asking is the value you must be placing on those lives to make you think a gun buyback isn't worthwhile.

[HeijoshinCool]

Samran: 1. See, emotional. You are casting aspersions that I care nothing about the lives of little children.

gl555: No, I don't. It's an impossibility. That's my point, no one does. The media and the government don't either. They simply want us all riled up and at each others throats.

Never said you didn't care.

All I am asking is the value you must be placing on those lives to make you think a gun buyback isn't worthwhile.

Priceless.

[samran]

See, that's what I'm talking about.

Millions of unregistered owners. How you gonna find them? Who's going to volunteer to confiscate their guns? The courts are over burdened already. Jails and prisons are overloaded.

No plan. No one has a viable plan.

I guess big ambition is beyond some. A country can send a man to the moon, but throw their hands up of the 'complexity and expense' of a gun buyback.

Money on the table is a huge incentive. It has been done successfully elsewhere. There is a template.

Get the incentives right, other things follow.

BTW - you still haven't given me the calculus of the worth of the lives of those 20 kids.

It's not just the complexity and expense, it's simply not possible, so why waste more taxpayer money and divide us further?

Why is it that it is doomed to failure? Or is the example of a developed nation with a substantial rural population and thus gun culture getting rid of its guns not a good enough example for The Greatest Nation On Earth

Edited December 26, 2012 by samran

[Scott]

The topic of what the life of a child is worth is emotive and off-topic.

[maidu]

I'm in favor of armed guards for EVERY child, not just the privileged few.

When I was a child, luckily I was a boy, so was able to run hither and thither. I hopped on and off trains when I was 7, in Paris, going from place to place on my own. Later, I would wander all sorts of places, sometimes crossing int'l borders without checking in with authorities. I'm not an average person, but my life would have been a lot different if I'd been required to have an armed guard with me everywhere.

There are 300 million guns in circulation in the USA. The bad guys are always going to be able to find guns unless they ban guns 100% and destroy every gun out there. I very much the government will do that.

So why not have armed guards at schools? Crazies are not stupid. You never hear of massacres at a police station do you? They always soft targets like schools which are no gun zones. Psychos and criminals aren't going to follow the rules and not attack 'no gun zones'.

And don't forget to send a SWAT team to every fire reported now!!!! Where does it stop , let me think STOP the GUNS.

Armed guards can go blotto also. Every heard of 'going postal?'

Here's a headline we don't want to read in 5 years (if the NRA and Republicans get their way): "An Armed Security Guard Shot and killed a dozen children and three teachers today. Authorities don't know why, but suspect it was either a pay dispute with his employer or a jealous response to his thwarted attempts to date one of the teachers."

Outlandish? Not nearly as much as the recent killing at schools; Columbine, etc. in the USA.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Scott
font

[gl555]

*quote edited out*

There have been numerous cases of citizens with legal handguns who stopped a potential gun massacre by stopping the crazed individual. The liberal press never puts any of these incidents in their headlines so most people never read about them.

As for armed security guards in schools, I would hope they would perform extensive background and psychogical checks on these people before letting them guard our children. As for your nightmare scenario, it could happen to a armed policeman. So you're saying policemen should be unarmed also?

Edited December 26, 2012 by Scott

[Chicog]

I love the fact that the NRA are trying to claim it is not possible to remove 300,000,000 guns from the populace, therefore there is no point in doing *anything*. Who is asking to remove 300,000,000 guns?

We are talking about doing *something*. Start by making the penalties for illegal ownership, and especially use, guaranteed life in prison. Have an amnesty for those who wish to dispose of illegal guns.

Then a buyback of weapons that can easily be converted to be fully automatic. Then make them illegal and punish those who break that law.

Like any Security aspect, you can never make it 100%, you just try and mitigate the risks that you can. Less risk = less deaths.

This hogwash about no viable plan is laughable. Not being able to get rid of 300,000,000 guns is not an excuse to avoid starting to get rid of the first 1,000,000 most dangerous.

And no, this is not a palliative to ignore the obvious need to try and mitigate the other factors that so easily allow murderous weapons to fall into the hands of the emotionally disturbed.

That needs addressing too.

I'm sure Joe Biden's Task Force will be aware of all of the issues, and will try and come up with some meaningful steps with which no reasonable person can disagree.

One thing that is certain is that the NRA will oppose absolutely anything using any poor excuse they can find - that's what they are paid to do.

[Credo]

Why not go for the death penalty. Oh, wait, that will be too harsh for some. Life in prison will bring out those critics who complain about the US having the highest incarceration rate.

Can't win, I guess.

[Chicog]

[There have been numerous cases of citizens with legal handguns who stopped a potential gun massacre by stopping the crazed individual. The liberal press never puts any of these incidents in their headlines so most people never read about them.

Background static. There have also been cases of students and tourists being murdered by overzealous gun owners who think everyone is out to rob them.

And there's George Zimmerman.

[gl555]

I love the fact that the NRA are trying to claim it is not possible to remove 300,000,000 guns from the populace, therefore there is no point in doing *anything*. Who is asking to remove 300,000,000 guns?

We are talking about doing *something*. Start by making the penalties for illegal ownership, and especially use, guaranteed life in prison. Have an amnesty for those who wish to dispose of illegal guns.

Then a buyback of weapons that can easily be converted to be fully automatic. Then make them illegal and punish those who break that law.

Like any Security aspect, you can never make it 100%, you just try and mitigate the risks that you can. Less risk = less deaths.

This hogwash about no viable plan is laughable. Not being able to get rid of 300,000,000 guns is not an excuse to avoid starting to get rid of the first 1,000,000 most dangerous.

And no, this is not a palliative to ignore the obvious need to try and mitigate the other factors that so easily allow murderous weapons to fall into the hands of the emotionally disturbed.

That needs addressing too.

I'm sure Joe Biden's Task Force will be aware of all of the issues, and will try and come up with some meaningful steps with which no reasonable person can disagree.

One thing that is certain is that the NRA will oppose absolutely anything using any poor excuse they can find - that's what they are paid to do.

I love the fact that the NRA are trying to claim it is not possible to remove 300,000,000 guns from the populace, therefore there is no point in doing *anything*. Who is asking to remove 300,000,000 guns?

We are talking about doing *something*. Start by making the penalties for illegal ownership, and especially use, guaranteed life in prison. Have an amnesty for those who wish to dispose of illegal guns.

Then a buyback of weapons that can easily be converted to be fully automatic. Then make them illegal and punish those who break that law.

Like any Security aspect, you can never make it 100%, you just try and mitigate the risks that you can. Less risk = less deaths.

This hogwash about no viable plan is laughable. Not being able to get rid of 300,000,000 guns is not an excuse to avoid starting to get rid of the first 1,000,000 most dangerous.

And no, this is not a palliative to ignore the obvious need to try and mitigate the other factors that so easily allow murderous weapons to fall into the hands of the emotionally disturbed.

That needs addressing too.

I'm sure Joe Biden's Task Force will be aware of all of the issues, and will try and come up with some meaningful steps with which no reasonable person can disagree.

One thing that is certain is that the NRA will oppose absolutely anything using any poor excuse they can find - that's what they are paid to do.

Do you really think congress would ever pass a law like that? Especially when 42% of polled Americans are opposed to gun control. This poll taken only a couple of days AFTER Sandy Hook. The Democrats have said they can't round up 15 million of the estimated illegal immigrants in America. That's only 15 million. This is 300 million. Do you really think congress will finance a massive buy back and enforcement to get rid of 300 million guns when 42% of Americans are against it? The ATF will be extremely with their windfall if it ever happens.

The problem with a lot of you is that you're blaming the NRA for this and that, while ignoring the fact that a lot of Americans, almost half, are against gun control.

[Chicog]

Why not go for the death penalty. Oh, wait, that will be too harsh for some. Life in prison will bring out those critics who complain about the US having the highest incarceration rate.

Can't win, I guess.

There's some work to be done there as well. Drug offences take up too much space in prison.