Citizenship Refusal

[Neeranam]

I'm wondering how many people that apply for citizenship are refused. Is there anyone on these forums that has been refused and, if so, why?

Could it be any criminal record in the home country?

Not being fluent enough in Thai - failing the interview ?

The panel not liking you for any reason?

Not contributing enough to Thailand?

Age - is it better to be younger or older?

[Mario2008]

A criminal record disqualifies you for Thai nationality. (Not sure in howfar the nature of the offence is taken into account).

Points are awarded based on your age, your income, level of Thai etc.

Edit:

If you don't stand a chance you will hear that when you file your application. I guess that not many are refused after filling their application.

[Neeranam]

Thanks Mario

I was concerned as I have a more criminal record from 25 years ago. However, I think it is'spent' as I actually got a police clearance here for work a few years ago.

[Neeranam]

I've just found a source that says that 40-50 is the age taht gets maximum points(10)

20-30- 2 points

30-40- 5 points

50-60- 8 points

over 60 - 5 points.

So, they prefer older guys.

[samran]

Special Branch generally won't even accept the application if it doesn't even stand a chance of succeeding. So if you get that far you stand a good chance of eventually getting it.

[Dork]

I've just found a source that says that 40-50 is the age taht gets maximum points(10)

20-30- 2 points

30-40- 5 points

50-60- 8 points

over 60 - 5 points.

So, they prefer older guys.

Yes, I've wondered what the logic is behind this too. Though nowadays I would fall into the 10 points bracket, citizenship would have been much more beneficial to me in my thirties. Now in my late forties and possibly looking at 5 - 10 years more after application, I'm having trouble convincing myself it's worth the hassle.

[roamer]

I might consider it if they are prepared to grant it posthumously .....

[Pib]

I might consider it if they are prepared to grant it posthumously .....

Application final approval now only takes half-a-lifetime.

[samran]

I've just found a source that says that 40-50 is the age taht gets maximum points(10)

20-30- 2 points

30-40- 5 points

50-60- 8 points

over 60 - 5 points.

So, they prefer older guys.

Yes, I've wondered what the logic is behind this too. Though nowadays I would fall into the 10 points bracket, citizenship would have been much more beneficial to me in my thirties. Now in my late forties and possibly looking at 5 - 10 years more after application, I'm having trouble convincing myself it's worth the hassle.

Thats the thing - it really isn't too much hassel if you already basically qualify. Just sitting and waiting.

[culicine]

I might consider it if they are prepared to grant it posthumously .....

I'm not sure it carries over to the next life though...have to do the paper work again

[Dork]

I've just found a source that says that 40-50 is the age taht gets maximum points(10)

20-30- 2 points

30-40- 5 points

50-60- 8 points

over 60 - 5 points.

So, they prefer older guys.

Yes, I've wondered what the logic is behind this too. Though nowadays I would fall into the 10 points bracket, citizenship would have been much more beneficial to me in my thirties. Now in my late forties and possibly looking at 5 - 10 years more after application, I'm having trouble convincing myself it's worth the hassle.

Thats the thing - it really isn't too much hassel if you already basically qualify. Just sitting and waiting.

I think that depends on individual circumstances and especially whether you are a male or female applicant.

When I look back at my own situation, having spent years living and working legally, paying a lot of taxes, married to a Thai, investing considerable amounts in various businesses and employing many people, I think it would be fair to say that I should have been eligible for Thai citizenship long ago. However it has always remained elusive. Firstly the previous requirement for 5 years of PR before applying made it seem onerous especially when you consider the ongoing debate about whether PR itself is worthwhile. Then I finally did apply for PR in 2006 and as most reading this will know, that wasn’t approved until late last year. In the meantime, in 2008 the rules on nationality changed so that a male married to a Thai no longer needed 5 yrs of PR to apply. However I wasn’t able to apply unless I dropped my pending PR application, so that was out.

It’s only now that I find myself really eligible. However apart from all the standard hoop jumping, I have understood from Arkady’s posts that it is necessary to maintain a work permit throughout the (God only knows how many) years before an application is approved. And that means committing to continue to meet all the labour department's employer & employee requirements (even including the bizarre syphilis test) and keep paying a reasonable sum in personal taxes for absolutely no other benefit. To me this alone qualifies as a pretty big hassle.

This brings me back to the point, why the points system discouraging younger guys? If I were already a Thai citizen, I would surely feel a greater incentive (& moral obligation) to continue investing back into the Thai economy than I do now. To make the prospect of becoming a Thai so difficult for someone with the most productive part of their career ahead of them makes no sense.

For me personally there are no sour grapes and I actively encourage others to apply. With the benefit of hindsight, I can see that In many ways it is my own fault that I’m in this dilemma. I really should have bitten the bullet and gone for PR much earlier than I did. Now that I am finally eligible to apply I still can’t make up my mind whether to go for it or not but given the above and looking at the effort vs benefits, I can’t help but lean towards “thanks, but no thanks”.

[Neeranam]

I've just found a source that says that 40-50 is the age taht gets maximum points(10)

20-30- 2 points

30-40- 5 points

50-60- 8 points

over 60 - 5 points.

So, they prefer older guys.

Yes, I've wondered what the logic is behind this too. Though nowadays I would fall into the 10 points bracket, citizenship would have been much more beneficial to me in my thirties. Now in my late forties and possibly looking at 5 - 10 years more after application, I'm having trouble convincing myself it's worth the hassle.

Then again, a younger guy may be able to learn Thai easier than an older guy. If a 30 year old loses 5 points on the age thing they could make up 5 points by being able to read and write.

[Time Traveller]

I've just found a source that says that 40-50 is the age taht gets maximum points(10)

20-30- 2 points

30-40- 5 points

50-60- 8 points

over 60 - 5 points.

So, they prefer older guys.

Yes, I've wondered what the logic is behind this too. Though nowadays I would fall into the 10 points bracket, citizenship would have been much more beneficial to me in my thirties. Now in my late forties and possibly looking at 5 - 10 years more after application, I'm having trouble convincing myself it's worth the hassle.

The logic is it's not what will benefit you, it's what will benefit the country.

[samran]

I've just found a source that says that 40-50 is the age taht gets maximum points(10)

20-30- 2 points

30-40- 5 points

50-60- 8 points

over 60 - 5 points.

So, they prefer older guys.

Yes, I've wondered what the logic is behind this too. Though nowadays I would fall into the 10 points bracket, citizenship would have been much more beneficial to me in my thirties. Now in my late forties and possibly looking at 5 - 10 years more after application, I'm having trouble convincing myself it's worth the hassle.

Thats the thing - it really isn't too much hassel if you already basically qualify. Just sitting and waiting.

I think that depends on individual circumstances and especially whether you are a male or female applicant.

When I look back at my own situation, having spent years living and working legally, paying a lot of taxes, married to a Thai, investing considerable amounts in various businesses and employing many people, I think it would be fair to say that I should have been eligible for Thai citizenship long ago. However it has always remained elusive. Firstly the previous requirement for 5 years of PR before applying made it seem onerous especially when you consider the ongoing debate about whether PR itself is worthwhile. Then I finally did apply for PR in 2006 and as most reading this will know, that wasn’t approved until late last year. In the meantime, in 2008 the rules on nationality changed so that a male married to a Thai no longer needed 5 yrs of PR to apply. However I wasn’t able to apply unless I dropped my pending PR application, so that was out.

It’s only now that I find myself really eligible. However apart from all the standard hoop jumping, I have understood from Arkady’s posts that it is necessary to maintain a work permit throughout the (God only knows how many) years before an application is approved. And that means committing to continue to meet all the labour department's employer & employee requirements (even including the bizarre syphilis test) and keep paying a reasonable sum in personal taxes for absolutely no other benefit. To me this alone qualifies as a pretty big hassle.

This brings me back to the point, why the points system discouraging younger guys? If I were already a Thai citizen, I would surely feel a greater incentive (& moral obligation) to continue investing back into the Thai economy than I do now. To make the prospect of becoming a Thai so difficult for someone with the most productive part of their career ahead of them makes no sense.

For me personally there are no sour grapes and I actively encourage others to apply. With the benefit of hindsight, I can see that In many ways it is my own fault that I’m in this dilemma. I really should have bitten the bullet and gone for PR much earlier than I did. Now that I am finally eligible to apply I still can’t make up my mind whether to go for it or not but given the above and looking at the effort vs benefits, I can’t help but lean towards “thanks, but no thanks”.

That is a very good post. I didn't know about maintaining the work permit which is indeed more than a bit of a pain, and it sounds like you are running your own business as well. So keeping all those balls in the air with an indeterminate end date does change the equation.

All I meant to say was that the paperwork in and of itself isn't very difficult and they do most of it for you. And for 5000 baht, it is is a cheap call option all in I'd reckon.

Edited January 9, 2013 by samran

[dantilley]

Other than the age listings given above, is there a guide somewhere to all the other criteria and how many points you can get for different values in each, and how many points in total you need to get citizenship?

[Dork]

All I meant to say was that the paperwork in and of itself isn't very difficult and they do most of it for you. And for 5000 baht, it is is a cheap call option all in I'd reckon.

That's absolutely true and is the one thing that may sway me. It's as you say, the "indeterminate end date" that I have trouble with. 3 years = acceptable, 5 years = too long, but maybe, 10 years = ridiculous, forget it.

[Mario2008]

Other than the age listings given above, is there a guide somewhere to all the other criteria and how many points you can get for different values in each, and how many points in total you need to get citizenship?

start reading here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Story-Thai-Citizenship-Applicatio-t121353.html

[GarryP]

I agree with Dork that the whole darned thing depends on individual circumstances.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I never went for the PR because I always thought it too expensive for what you got in return and I had my hopes pinned on the law eventually changing such that a PR was not a requirement to applying for citizenship for foreign men married to Thais, i.e. equal treatment for foreign men and women. That came to pass. However, I was not able to get a yellow house registration book until I was 48 (my former landlord could not be bothered to help and I did not push it) and the application did not go in until I was 49. Unlike, Dork, however, I do not have my own business. I am an employee so my concern is whether I will get citizenship before I am put out to pasture. Where I work retirement age is 55 so I need to get it before then, otherwise I would be disqualified for lack of work permit (assuming they do not keep me on and there is no guarantee that they will). We have stories of the process taking anywhere from 18 months to 10 years or more so this is a real concern.

Having said that, once I got my Tor Ror 13 (Yellow House Registration), the whole citizenship application process was very straight forward. I did not have to jump through any hoops. Once or twice I was asked to get another document or copy of something, but it was no bother at all.

With the worry about retirement, I wish I had gone for PR years and years ago (I would pursued somewhere to record my residence with more vigour) as I have been working for the same company for more than two decades and would have qualified. It would have saved a lot of worry in the long run as I could then have applied for citizenship based on PR and not needed to wait for the law to change. It serves me right for being such a tight arse.

Dork, as an officer in the naturalization section told me, there is no harm in submitting an application, and you won’t get citizenship without doing so.

Once the application is in, your interview with the NIA completed and your application forwarded to the MOI, it is just a matter of waiting to be called for an interview (eventually). 5k is not a lot to lose if down the road you decide it is not worth the hassle of keeping your work permit and tax records, i.e. you wish to shut up shop and retire and it will have no impact on you PR status if you decide to go that way.

[dantilley]

Other than the age listings given above, is there a guide somewhere to all the other criteria and how many points you can get for different values in each, and how many points in total you need to get citizenship?

start reading here:

http://www.thaivisa....io-t121353.html

A 27 page topic?!?!

Is there anywhere with a summarised guide to the points and how you can qualify for enough of them?

In the OP of that mammoth topic that you linked to is the text "All you need to do is satisfy the following to apply:", which then has a broken link. But it looks as though something's gone wrong with the way the forum renders the link as it's just a broken bit of Javascript. Any way that can be fixed?

[sbk]

took me some searching but found it and fixed it

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=759

[Dork]

took me some searching but found it and fixed it

http://www.phuketgaz...ails.asp?id=759

Good stuff. Lucky I'm not Vietnamese.....

[Dork]

Other than the age listings given above, is there a guide somewhere to all the other criteria and how many points you can get for different values in each, and how many points in total you need to get citizenship?

start reading here:

http://www.thaivisa....io-t121353.html

A 27 page topic?!?!

Is there anywhere with a summarised guide to the points and how you can qualify for enough of them?

In the OP of that mammoth topic that you linked to is the text "All you need to do is satisfy the following to apply:", which then has a broken link. But it looks as though something's gone wrong with the way the forum renders the link as it's just a broken bit of Javascript. Any way that can be fixed?

There is reference to a post by Arkady giving a detailed breakdown here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/516756-points-system-for-citizenship/#entry4896947

[samran]

All I meant to say was that the paperwork in and of itself isn't very difficult and they do most of it for you. And for 5000 baht, it is is a cheap call option all in I'd reckon.

That's absolutely true and is the one thing that may sway me. It's as you say, the "indeterminate end date" that I have trouble with. 3 years = acceptable, 5 years = too long, but maybe, 10 years = ridiculous, forget it.

Though I'm far from the worlds biggest fan of this government, they seem to be signing PR and citizenship applications at a steady clip. If I were a betting man, then now is proably as good as time as any....

[Mario2008]

Other than the age listings given above, is there a guide somewhere to all the other criteria and how many points you can get for different values in each, and how many points in total you need to get citizenship?

start reading here:

http://www.thaivisa....io-t121353.html

A 27 page topic?!?!

Is there anywhere with a summarised guide to the points and how you can qualify for enough of them?

In the OP of that mammoth topic that you linked to is the text "All you need to do is satisfy the following to apply:", which then has a broken link. But it looks as though something's gone wrong with the way the forum renders the link as it's just a broken bit of Javascript. Any way that can be fixed?

http://www.thaivisa....n-for-Natu.html English

http://post-a102367-...-for-natu.html/ Thai (Sorry, link seems to be broken)

[dantilley]

That PDF includes quite a few differences from the Phuket Gazette ariticle, do you know if it's up to date? I see the date on the Gazette is 2004 so I'm guessing the PDF is the one to refer to. A few worrying things in there though, especially point 7:

"7. Applicants should produce a document that they have submitted to their embassy or consulate in Thailand that demonstrates their intention to renounce their existing citizenship when they are approved for Thai citizenship."

Is this the case now for all nationalities? Or is this (and perhaps other conditions) not set in stone?

[GarryP]

That PDF includes quite a few differences from the Phuket Gazette ariticle, do you know if it's up to date? I see the date on the Gazette is 2004 so I'm guessing the PDF is the one to refer to. A few worrying things in there though, especially point 7:

"7. Applicants should produce a document that they have submitted to their embassy or consulate in Thailand that demonstrates their intention to renounce their existing citizenship when they are approved for Thai citizenship."

Is this the case now for all nationalities? Or is this (and perhaps other conditions) not set in stone?

Submitting the declaration is required and you first need to have it endorsed by the Vice Consul (if you are British). You then must have it translated and certified but not further endorsed by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. There is a lot of discussion on this issue on another citizenship thread. Whether or not you would ultimately have to surrender your exisiting citizenship is open to debate, but this is not a problem for me.

[Neeranam]

I've been reading about all the requirements for Citizenship and wonder if anyone can advise me on one issue.

I have a Yellow Tambien Bahn from my wife's family home in another province. I am hopefully buying a house later this year. Would it be wise/easier to wait until my name was on a tabien baan for Khon Kaen, where I live or would it be better to apply now? I read that they can come round to check that you actually live there?

[Dork]

Thanks Mario

I was concerned as I have a more criminal record from 25 years ago. However, I think it is'spent' as I actually got a police clearance here for work a few years ago.

I'm pretty sure I read that as opposed to PR, a citizenship application doesn't require a criminal record check from your home country.

[ubonjoe]

It is not required for citizenship but for many people they have to have PR prior to applying it. I suspect that is why it is not needed for citizenship. As part of the of citizenship process they do a local background check.

[sas_cars]

It is not required for citizenship but for many people they have to have PR prior to applying it. I suspect that is why it is not needed for citizenship. As part of the of citizenship process they do a local background check.

The requirements for PR and Citizenship are pretty identical. So in other words, If someone qualifies for PR, he qualifies for citizenship as well. But citizenship's biggest hurdle for people not married to thais is the requirement of having a PR for 5 years