English Language Test In Thailand For Uk Visa

[durhamboy]

Thank you EFF1n2ret for that useful history.

I would just take slight issue on 2 points :-

1. The test companies here CPA and Vantage run tests that are not their own. They run TOEIC and BULATS respectfully so I think they have very little control over the actual content of the tests. If TOEIC and BULATS say reading and writing have to be taken then CPA and Vantage have to go along with this. Also these tests are being run for a number of different reasons not just UKBA so really why should they mess around with their test formats?

2. You say the UKBA doesnt possess the skills or infrastructure to construct their own tests but this seems to have been accomplished with the Life in the UK tests. Surely if they had wanted to do it properly then they could have commissioned a company of language test specialists to design the test and then roll it out to test companies worldwide. In my opiniion they chose the cheaper option to save costs because they really couldnt give a dam_n about the problems the current system causes applicants.

[7by7]

1) Neither BULATS nor TOEIC insist on candidates taking reading and writing as well as speaking and listening. That CPA and Vantage do so is their decision.

2) You are being to parochial; this test is not just required in Thailand, remember.

There is a big difference between running a specific test which can be taken only in the UK and running a worldwide test.

If the government (and it's the last Labour government who decided this, not the UKBA) had designed a test which was conducted by UKBA staff and therefore could only be taken in a British embassy there would no doubt be many complaints about having to travel to the embassy to take the test and the delay in visa processing which would result from the UKBA staff within the embassy conducting English tests instead of processing visa applications.

[bangkockney]

7by7,

Re 1):

No, there are two TOEIC modules: Listening and Reading and Speaking and Writing. Test centres have no choice in the selection of which modules a condidate can sit.

The same is true for BULATS, but they offer the Standard Test or three independent modules.

More curiously to me is why IELTS is still not on the list as being acceptable for the settlement route, whereas it is fine for different visa classes.

[neilk]

My Girlfriend took the A1 test in November last year in the UK whilst on a holiday visa, because we couldnt find anyone in Thailand, it cost £80 and took all of 6 minutes, she got a B+ because she forgot what the date was that day, We used Trinity College, who do the tests in variuos parts of the UK on certain dates

http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/site/?id=2046&utm_source=jump&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=gesevideos these are videos 0f the test and what to expect

[durhamboy]

1) Neither BULATS nor TOEIC insist on candidates taking reading and writing as well as speaking and listening. That CPA and Vantage do so is their decision.

2) You are being to parochial; this test is not just required in Thailand, remember.

There is a big difference between running a specific test which can be taken only in the UK and running a worldwide test.

If the government (and it's the last Labour government who decided this, not the UKBA) had designed a test which was conducted by UKBA staff and therefore could only be taken in a British embassy there would no doubt be many complaints about having to travel to the embassy to take the test and the delay in visa processing which would result from the UKBA staff within the embassy conducting English tests instead of processing visa applications.

7by7,

Re 1):

No, there are two TOEIC modules: Listening and Reading and Speaking and Writing. Test centres have no choice in the selection of which modules a condidate can sit.

The same is true for BULATS, but they offer the Standard Test or three independent modules.

More curiously to me is why IELTS is still not on the list as being acceptable for the settlement route, whereas it is fine for different visa classes.

7x7 seems you are wrong!

Also why do you think I am being parochial? I think settlement applicants are experiencing these sort of problems worldwide.

Finally, I didnt say that the UKBA should conduct the tests only that they should design one which could be run by the test providers such as Vantage and CPA.

Seems to me that you, for some reason, do not want to accept any criticism of the UKBA.

[7by7]

If you think I don't accept criticism of the UKBA, or criticise them myself, then you have obviously not read much of my posting history!

The government, not the UKBA, decided that designing their own tests was unnecessary as many tests which were universally recognised as meeting the required standard already existed! Which was not the case for the LitUK test

I know several people who have taken their test in the UK and have not been tested on reading and writing; but I do not know off hand which test they took.

I have emailed both TOEIC and BULATS to ask if it is they or the test providers in Thailand who insist on candidates taking unnecessary reading and writing tests. I will post their replies, if any, once received.

Edited February 22, 2013 by 7by7

[gprit]

Sorry to re-open this one - I am trying to avoid going to Bangkok for the A1 Level English Test. One of the previous posts stated there was one centre in Chiange Mai that was approved, but I have been unable to find details of it.

Is there one? where?

thanks

[durhamboy]

CPA have a centre in Chiang Mai - www.cpathailand.co.th and see the page for their Northern Regional Office

[gprit]

Thanks for the pointer. Unfortunately it seems they only hold the Speaking test in Bangkok!

[durhamboy]

Oh right .... didn't know that. So wherever you live in Thailand you have to go to Bangkok at least 3 times for a settlement visa :-

1. English test

2. TB test

3. Submit application

All adds to the cost of the visa doesn't it?

[gprit]

Anyone confirm??

My wife took the Cambridge level test in BKK today (Pearson soi 21) - she was not impressed (more later).

We have received the score report but have no idea whether the results are acceptable to UKBA for Spouse visa application.

Reading the sumary it seems to indicate that anything between 10-29 reaches the A1 level needed. is that correct..

Secondly, if the overall score was low but the individual Listenign and Speaking parts were higher can they be treated as a higher score?

thanks

[durhamboy]

Sorry but I don't know very much about the Pearsons Test except that of the 3 options I think it is the most expensive.

I'm not surprised that you are confused. I found the whole system to be confusing and shambolic. Actually I feel quite sorry for wives/fiancées that don't have their UK partners with them in Thailand to help them understand this mess. It must be incredibly difficult for them. As I've said many times before these tests were, and have never been, designed for UK visa purposes. Therefore the companies that run them usually don't tell you if your score is sufficient for UKVI purposes.

Regarding your last point - you only have to pass the Speaking and Listening parts for UKVI purposes. Therefore you can score zero for Reading and Writing and still pass. So really each part should be looked at in isolation and I don't think that any combining of scores makes any difference as far as the visa is concerned. Good luck.

[gprit]

"don't think that any combining of scores makes any difference as far as the visa is concerned"

What does that mean??? She scored 29 in Listening and 22 in Speaking.

I have seen now on the UKBA website that Pearson PTE Academic A1 level scores are Listening 24 ..Speaking 24.....Reading...24 ...Writing 24.

The only comment the Test centre have is that scores of 10-29 meet A1 level, which they describe as:

Can understand and use familiar everyday expressions and very basic phrases aimed at the satisfaction of needs of a concrete type. Can introduce him/herself and others and can ask and answer questions about personal details such as where he/she lives, people he/she knows and things he/she has. Can interact in a simple way provided the other person talks slowly and clearly and is prepared to help.

Now then...her overall score over the four areas was 22.

BUT...seeing that only Listening/Speaking is required her overall score on these two was 25.5

In addition Pearson score explanation states that A1 Reading has a 3.6 error measurement.

For example, if the reported score is 60 and the error of measurement is 3, then the true score, with 68% certainty, is within one measurement error from the reported score; that is within the range of 57 (60-3) and 63 (60+3). The true score, with 95% certainty, is within twice the measurement error; that is within the range of 54 (60-2x3) to 66 (60+2x3).

So...with a Speaking score of 22....

This means that the true score - with 68% certainty is 18.4 (22-3.6) to 25.6 (22+3.6)

This means that the true score - with 95% certainty is 14.8 (22-2x3.6) to 29.2 (22+2x3.6)

Any experts here like to say whether that is sufficient grounds for persuading UKBA she is proficient???

[TCA]

From Pearson's website:

"Spouse visa applicants require a minimum PTE Academic score of 24 in Listening and Speaking only."

http://pearsonpte.com/TestMe/About/Pages/HowtousePTEAcademicwithUKBA.aspx

According to UKBA:

" Where two or more components (reading, writing, speaking and listening) of an English language test are examined and awarded together, for example a combined exam and certificate for reading and writing skills, the specified evidence submitted by the applicant must show that he achieved the required scores in all the relevant components during a single sitting of that examination, unless exempted from sitting a component on the basis of his disability."

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/immigrationlaw/immigrationrules/appendixo/

My reading of that is that the level is set per individual component, not overall. But maybe not, so why not just call UKBA and ask them?

[gprit]

Yes I saw tyhat - and yes I have contacted them by email...but.....have not yet had a reply.

I just wondered if anyone else had had a similar situation.

[durhamboy]

gprit you say "The only comment the Test centre have is that scores of 10-29 meet A1 level"

TCA you say "From Pearson's website - "Spouse visa applicants require a minimum PTE Academic score of 24 in Listening and Speaking only."

For UK spouse visa you need A1 level so it seems to be a difference in what you guys are saying.

gprit - I suggest you find out the minimum pass level for A1 from Pearsons before getting into complicated mathematical calculations.

[gprit]

Let me enlighten you.

All my previous quoted are from Pearsons website content.

This is the problem - they say scores 10-29 meet A1 Level (and defines it as post #43), but they also say elsewhere "Spouse visa applicants require a minimum PTE Academic score of 24 in Listening and Speaking only". They give an overall score for the test (Listening/Speaking/Writing/Reading). However, as we know Writing and Reading scores are irrelevant for UKBA purposes.

Pearson howver do not clarify whether 29 and 22 combined (making an overall score of 25.5) meets the requirement of 24. The UKBA statement does seem to indicate 24 in each of the four components, despite Writing and Reading not being required). This is why I then went on to explore the error of measurement.

'Complicated mathematical calculations' have a very definite bearing on the score in my opinion. Again - to quote from the Pearson 'understanding your score' they say:

The TRUE score of a test taker is within a range of scores around the reported score. (my bold/underline/larger text)

The size of that range is defined by the error of measurement.

then go on to show examples I have quoted above...with the results I have shown above.

This error of measurement calculation is EXTREMELY pertinent to the score given - the difference between definitely meeting UKBA requirements or not.

I have emailed them but as yet have had no response. I will expand on the test itself when I have gathered replies from various places.

.

[TCA]

This error of measurement calculation is EXTREMELY pertinent to the score given - the difference between definitely meeting UKBA requirements or not.

Let us know what they say. Unlikely you'll get a quick response from an email but you never know.

IMO you're probably clutching at straws with error measurements. I think the scores are the scores. There wouldn't be much point in them saying a score (or a range of scores) of x is A1 level, but then also saying a score (or range of scores) of x +/- y%, is also A1 level. But it's pretty unclear what x is to begin with!

Good luck.

Edited February 10, 2014 by TCA

[durhamboy]

The UKVI website as you say shows the A1 pass levels as 24 for each component. Almost unbelievably this is the same passmark for an A2 level - unless someone made an error!!!

See - www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/new-approved-english-tests.pdf

It is well known that in the TOEIC and BULATS that it is a lot easier to achieve the Speaking passmark than the Listening passmark. Presumably this is also the case with Pearsons. If so, then it would really not be logical to amalgamate the scores and average them. Almost certainly you would have to pass each one in isolation but I wish you luck.

Btw, you are the first person that I've known to opt for Pearsons. Everyone else (in this forum and people I know personally) go for TOEIC or BULATS - indeed the visa agents in this forum seem to recommend BULATS. If you don't mind me asking why did you choose Pearsons?

[gprit]

Choosing Pearson - I assumed BULATS was more Business orientated, TOEIC if I remember wasn't being offered in timescales. Main reason though was (and this is one of my gripes with the test taken) is that the sample/training papers provided BY PEARSON, were very simplistic, and my wife had no problem in attaining 70-80% in our practice sessions. Not sure if I am allowed too upload them here. My comment to Pearson:

Prior to the test we downloaded from your website practice papers 1/2/3 in Speaking and Written exercises, dated July 2011, for the A1 Level examination.

Whilst the papers do state that the actual test may differ, the test undertaken on 7th February in Bangkok bore NO RELATION whatsoever to those sample papers. The test was clearly aimed at a higher audience, with no repeated audio, and included such examples as a description about the recession during the 1990's complete with economic graphs, which then required an opinion formed from the graph and commentary. This FAR exceeds what is required for A1 level requirements.

The test itself was also entirely computer-based, and some of the spoken words were in American and Australian accents - why??? They also spoke exceedingly rapidly. I am sure you will agree that effective communication is best achieved in a face-to-face situation, not impersonalised by computer generated speech. With regard to Spoken responses, the computer ends the question if the applicant has not spoken within THREE SECONDS!

In addition there were questions that required written answers input to the screen of 200-300 words in a twenty minute period, something that would be beyond most people. KEYBOARD / TYPING SKILLS are NOT supposed to form any part of the A1 Test.

I would also add that the people supervising the test were extremely offhand. Not a 'good morning and welcome' or even a smile and the Personal Recording at the start..... - not enough time to say much.

[durhamboy]

Yes BULATS is more business orientated but you do get a much more personalised treatment there especially if you go for the 3 day intensive tuition which concentrates on exam technique rather than teaching English. It is a bit more expensive but ultimately worth it in my opinion. CPA/TOEIC is a joke especially after the Panorama program on BBC last night (see related topic). TOEIC takes nearly a month to mark the papers - because the Speaking tapes are sent to America for marking. Also TOEIC seem to be just a money making production line and they don't care if people fail because it means more retests to them (whereas BULATS have about a 99% success rate if you also take the tuition).

An example of CPA's attitude - we found out that they had put additional sittings on the day my wife took her test. We were booked for the 9:00am slot which was a bit inconvenient because we had to travel in from outside Bangkok. So we asked to be switched to the 4:00pm slot. No problem they said that will cost THB1,000. Yes, £20 for a couple of keystrokes on the computer! I told them they were being ridiculous and we kept the early slot.

I was interested in what you said about the type of questions at Pearsons. Actually this is also true of TOEIC - one question I remember (in their sample Listening test I think) was that you worked for a bank and an irate customer rang up to say their bank card had been swallowed up by the ATM machine and they were going on holiday the next day so advise them. Well the purpose of the test for UK visa purposes is that everyone should be able to speak simple English sentences and this is far in advance of that. BULATS is also quite technical as well so in my opinion these tests are not fit for purpose. HMG/UKVI should have designed there own tests rather than "piggy-back" on tests that were never designed for visa purposes. For those reading this who think I've got a "bee in my bonnet" about all this then your absolutely right I HAVE. You can only appreciate what an absolute shambles this is unless you have gone through it.

One last point - I would like to go back to your previous post about averaging scores. Sorry to say, but I don't think that can work because when Pearsons say the passmark is 24 for each component that doesn't necessarily mean 24% or even that 24 is out of the same score. E.g. in the TOEIC test the Speaking passmark is 60 out of 480 (i.e. 12.5%) whereas Listening is 50 out of 200 (i.e. 25%). Hope that makes sense.

[TCA]

Yes BULATS is more business orientated

My wife sat BULATS at Vantage Siam in Bangkok. Their online tutorials are horrific in so far as beginner learning goes. Far too difficult and of course very business orientated as was said. In the end I gave up on tutoring her and she just went for it, given A1 is (or should be) a very easy level to attain. Online BULATS apparently assesses your level as you go on. i.e. if questions are too difficult, it makes them easier until the correct level is attained for grading. My wife thankfully achieved A1 but not with flying colours. I imagine B1 level for ILR will take some effort!

[gprit]

Can I ask another question?

My travel plans now are:

France - mid March to mid June

Thailand - mid June to mid September (will apply for UK Visitor Visa wef end of November)

France - mid september to end November (spouse schengen visa or indeed I will also apply for a Carte de Sejour for my wife whilst in France).

UK - end of November on Visitor Visa

As the Trinity A1 Level test in London is so short (6 minutes), will take the test there in December.

Assuming a pass from that test, am I right in understanding that an application can then be made to extend the stay (as a partner of Person Present and Settled in the UK) beyond six months

via the FLR(M) application whilst we are both in the UK? The form seems to indicate that we can.

I meet residential and financial requiremensts.

thanks

Edited March 5, 2014 by gprit

[7by7]

A visit visa cannot be extended or converted to settlement in the UK.

[gprit]

That's what i thought before, but to me this link seems to say that it can be done??

It doesn't differentiate as to what type of visa a spouse used to enter the uk.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-to-extend-stay-in-the-uk-as-a-partner-form-flrm

[7by7]

From your link

You should read the ‘FLR(M) guidance notes’ before you apply.

FLR(M) guidance notes

2 QUALIFYING FOR AN EXTENSION OF STAY
To qualify for an extension of stay in the categories for which you have to use form FLR(M), you must meet the relevant requirements in Part 8 Section 1 of the Immigration Rules

Immigration Rules Part 8 section 1

284. The requirements for an extension of stay as the spouse or civil partner of a person present and settled in the United Kingdom are that:
(i) the applicant has or was last granted limited leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom which was given in accordance with any of the provisions of these Rules, other than where as a result of that leave he would not have been in the United Kingdom beyond 6 months from the date on which he was admitted to the United Kingdom on this occasion in accordance with these Rules,
(My emphasis)

You will see that there are two exceptions to this '6 month rule' but that a visit visa is not one of them.

Edited March 5, 2014 by 7by7

[bigyin]

I hesitate to wade into this earlier discussion on the difficulty of achieving A1 but Durhamboy is fairly spot on with his comments as I have just been through all this with my wife. The problem with the Key English Test as offered by Vantage-Siam is 2 fold. Firstly you have to do all 4 components of speaking, listening, reading and writing. You have to be able to read English to a reasonable level to understand the questions as the multi choice answers are written down. If you can't read them very well you are unlikely to get the right answer. So reading does play a part and that is a fact not an opinion. Secondly the result is an overall mark based on all 4 parts. So it is correct to say that UKBA only require A1 in speaking and listening but how do you evidence this if the mark is over all 4 and most Thai applicants will fall down to a greater or lessor degree on the reading and writing elements. They do supply a 'Customer Profile' which shows whether the applicant was weak, borderline or better for each part but it does not stipulate whether A1 or not. I have so far been unable to get any answer as to whether this customer profile would be acceptable to the ECO at the time of the visa application.

My wife gets her results and I really hope she passes..which is a mark of 45 by the way.. as if she doesn't we must decide whether to re sit or go with the customer profile and that seems risky. The test is, however, not easy to pass for the average Thai person and is a disgrace given the level that is actually required for visa purposes.