F1 2013

[JAS21]

Red Bull and Ferrari have proposed turning the upcoming Young Driver Test at Silverstone into a full blown tyre test with race drivers in order to help Pirelli find a solution to the issues it experienced at the British Grand Prix.

........................

Why doesn't that surprise me.

Did anyone see the BBC guy examining the kerb on Turn 4. It looked a bit stepped to me but there again I wasn't watching in HD ... mores the pity.

[Totster]

So what do we think of the debacle {in my opinion} of the quite clear infraction of the rules perpetrated by Mercedes and being allowed to determine their own punishment, or should that read; reward.

There is a difference of course when a new spec is introduced and there is a subsequent ban on some of the parts after a few races, I feel that the interpretation of the rules are subjective and frequently need to be refined as anomalies arise from the original intent but the rules on testing clearly state, no current year car, car must be at least two yrs old and only test drivers allowed to test.

Ross Brawn says he's happy they did nothing wrong and that Mercedes can now move on but then I never heard him censor M, Shumacher for his cheating ways at Ferrari so perhaps this attitude is "win at any cost" and the end justifies the means.

Cannot wait to read the Mercedes apologists reasoning that they did nothing wrong and by the way, when Ferrari tested not so long ago the car was two yrs old and had their test driver at the wheel.

David.

It's an absolute disgrace that Mercedes should be allowed to gain the advantage that they clearly showed at the Silverstone race and go unpunished. But hey, cheating and Brawn in F1 is not new, witness the 1994 season ! Benetton got away with probably the most illegal car to win the championship then too !

The disgrace will be, if it turns out, the changes Pirelli wanted to make. Could have prevented those tyres exploding, but 3 or 4 teams blocked it.

Indeed !

One could argue that mercedes didn't gain anything considering that the race leaders tyre burst and sent him to the back of the pack, and there was a punishment albeit the other teams didn't like it. To single out Mercedes as cheats is naive, all the teams will employ whatever means they can to get an advantage, Red Bull and Ferrari are just pissed off because they weren't invited to the party.

Here's the big point though, Brawn made the comment along the lines of, now you see why we wanted to try and do something about it (talking of the illegal testing).. seems to me they have come out nice and righteous after all.

Regarding the proposed changes to use the kevlar structure, I can understand that some teams thought they would loose out as their cars had been designed around the current tyre, personally I would rather loose a 10th of a second than have a tyre burst at 300kmph and I think now it's a case off tough shit, suck it up and deal with a more durable tyre.

Obviously there is something very wrong with the testing rules, Pirelli should IMO have good access to all the current cars to enable thorough testing, otherwise how can they be held responsible for poor tyre perfomance.

totster

[wackysleet]

Well totster, your quote of Brawns about doing something to rectify the tyre problem was not at the time perceived to be a problem except by Mercedes who had excessive tyre wear, after all, Pirelli designed a tyre to the spec requested of them but guess whose car was the heaviest on tyre wear and no surprises to who then did the illegal testing, perhaps they didn't gain any advantage but please do not kid yourself that was their intention and as for Lewis having a tyre burst so did several others on the same corner and the same wheel so perhaps if the drivers had stayed on the track where they should have been instead of riding the kerbs like they were then perhaps there would have been no blowouts.

As for cheating, Brawn has been in more than enough questionable situations to wonder about his sportsmanship.

David.

[b19bry]

So what do we think of the debacle {in my opinion} of the quite clear infraction of the rules perpetrated by Mercedes and being allowed to determine their own punishment, or should that read; reward.

There is a difference of course when a new spec is introduced and there is a subsequent ban on some of the parts after a few races, I feel that the interpretation of the rules are subjective and frequently need to be refined as anomalies arise from the original intent but the rules on testing clearly state, no current year car, car must be at least two yrs old and only test drivers allowed to test.

Ross Brawn says he's happy they did nothing wrong and that Mercedes can now move on but then I never heard him censor M, Shumacher for his cheating ways at Ferrari so perhaps this attitude is "win at any cost" and the end justifies the means.

Cannot wait to read the Mercedes apologists reasoning that they did nothing wrong and by the way, when Ferrari tested not so long ago the car was two yrs old and had their test driver at the wheel.

David.

It's an absolute disgrace that Mercedes should be allowed to gain the advantage that they clearly showed at the Silverstone race and go unpunished. But hey, cheating and Brawn in F1 is not new, witness the 1994 season ! Benetton got away with probably the most illegal car to win the championship then too !

The disgrace will be, if it turns out, the changes Pirelli wanted to make. Could have prevented those tyres exploding, but 3 or 4 teams blocked it.

Indeed !

One could argue that mercedes didn't gain anything

totster

Except they closed out the front row of the grid and went on to win the race !

[Totster]

Well totster, your quote of Brawns about doing something to rectify the tyre problem was not at the time perceived to be a problem except by Mercedes who had excessive tyre wear, after all, Pirelli designed a tyre to the spec requested of them but guess whose car was the heaviest on tyre wear and no surprises to who then did the illegal testing, perhaps they didn't gain any advantage but please do not kid yourself that was their intention and as for Lewis having a tyre burst so did several others on the same corner and the same wheel so perhaps if the drivers had stayed on the track where they should have been instead of riding the kerbs like they were then perhaps there would have been no blowouts.

As for cheating, Brawn has been in more than enough questionable situations to wonder about his sportsmanship.

David.

Again, your naivety astounds me. EVERY single team will employ any means neccesary, and any other team will protest and complain. That's the nature of Formula One these days, unfortunately due to the sheer amounts of money involved sportsmanship takes second place over winning.

I have no doubt regarding Mercedes motivation behind the illegal testing, although the recent events allows them to be very righteous...

Except they closed out the front row of the grid and went on to win the race !

Right, Vettel would have won if his gearbox hadn't stopped working..

There is no proof that they were on the front of the grid as a direct result of the tyre testing. It could be that they are good drivers... perish the thought !!

totster

[wackysleet]

totster. I'm all sorts of things but naïve is certainly not one of my traits and I do not believe like you that all teams given the opportunity would cheat, stretch the rules as I previously stated in regards to subjective thinking in regards to new technologies but not out and out cheating as you appear to condone. So does cheating make it ok because you think all teams would do it?.

F1 is a sport and a business but still no reason to resort to blatant cheating to win and it is people with the attitude that "The end justifies the means" has completely**** up the game of football.

If people complained about the so called cheating then the powers that be would stop it quick enough, ie; the sponsors, sad to see that you appear to subscribe to that way of thinking.

David.

[ignis]

Little odd............ as Mercedes continue their domination of qualifying sessions in the 2013 F1 world championship season, long before the 'test'

As said 'Vettel' was well ahead before his problems + how many teams made an extra stop because of the tyre problem ? do not think Mercedes would have won? just were lucky with so long a safety car stunts which played into Mercedes favour

Edited July 1, 2013 by ignis

[Totster]

totster. I'm all sorts of things but naïve is certainly not one of my traits and I do not believe like you that all teams given the opportunity would cheat, stretch the rules as I previously stated in regards to subjective thinking in regards to new technologies but not out and out cheating as you appear to condone. So does cheating make it ok because you think all teams would do it?.

F1 is a sport and a business but still no reason to resort to blatant cheating to win and it is people with the attitude that "The end justifies the means" has completely **** up the game of football.

If people complained about the so called cheating then the powers that be would stop it quick enough, ie; the sponsors, sad to see that you appear to subscribe to that way of thinking.

David.

Ok, I think we differ in our thoughts regarding how far teams will go to win, however you misunderstand me in respect to my condoning it.. I haven't said that.

I certainly don't condone it, however I do realise and accept that it is part of the game these days, my point to you was that you singled out one particular team where in fact every team will 'try it on' given half a chance.

The reality is of course is that as long as the FIA deem whatever these teams are doing is 'ok' then nothing will change. Red Bull announced it was considering illegal testing - kind of makes my point right ?

totster

[wackysleet]

totster.

With regards to Red Bull it seems they are of the opinion that if you cannot beat them then join them, after all the penalty of blatantly flouting rules that are as plain as the nose on ones face is worth the reward.

I agree that a lot of teams with dubious attitudes to winning may well try it on but with regards to the power that is then jump on any team that does cheat.

With regards to my singling out Mercedes is simply because they were the team involved in the illegal testing that was compounded by the veil of secrecy although how they figured no one would find out beats me. Ferrari tested previously within the rules, all open and above board.

My apologies if I misunderstood your views but to me not condemning is much the same as condoning. Sport in any form does not have to be the domain of cheats unless we allow it.

David.

[wackysleet]

Little odd............ as Mercedes continue their domination of qualifying sessions in the 2013 F1 world championship season, long before the 'test'

As said 'Vettel' was well ahead before his problems + how many teams made an extra stop because of the tyre problem ? do not think Mercedes would have won? just were lucky with so long a safety car stunts which played into Mercedes favour

I think we can say that Mercedes one lap record in qualifying has not yet turned into an unbeatable team, in fact far from it and my belief is that pole position is not as important now as it once was with the tyre spec teams are running with and the degradation issues appear to have affected Mercedes more than most.

Would Seb have beaten Lewis if the blowout had not occurred, who knows? but I would be surprised on recent form if Lewis could have beaten the Red Bulls although that is not to say he is not capable of it but is the car.?

David.

[Totster]

Little odd............ as Mercedes continue their domination of qualifying sessions in the 2013 F1 world championship season, long before the 'test'

As said 'Vettel' was well ahead before his problems + how many teams made an extra stop because of the tyre problem ? do not think Mercedes would have won? just were lucky with so long a safety car stunts which played into Mercedes favour

I think we can say that Mercedes one lap record in qualifying has not yet turned into an unbeatable team, in fact far from it and my belief is that pole position is not as important now as it once was with the tyre spec teams are running with and the degradation issues appear to have affected Mercedes more than most.

Would Seb have beaten Lewis if the blowout had not occurred, who knows? but I would be surprised on recent form if Lewis could have beaten the Red Bulls although that is not to say he is not capable of it but is the car.?

David.

It's a good point, Lewis was looking quite strong at the beginning, he had a 2.something second lead before the tyre burst so he was pulling away. the problem at the moment is that the tyre variable is so unpredictable we will never really know.

I have divided thoughts regarding the tyres, on one hand I like the unpredictability, on the other it quite annoys me. One thing I do know is that I like a race that is unpredictable.

totster

[wackysleet]

I have just read that Lewis has split with long term girlfriend Nicole yet again, do hope it will not effect his racing performance like it apparently did last time.

David.

[Totster]

I have just read that Lewis has split with long term girlfriend Nicole yet again, do hope it will not effect his racing performance like it apparently did last time.

David.

source ?

t

[wackysleet]

MSN showbiz page and on there again this morning.

David.

[wackysleet]

Also reported on yahoos sports F1 page on dangerous tyre wear, bottom of the page.

David.

[ignis]

http://en.espnf1.com/

So the FIA is changing the Rules, can now test with 2013 cars and Race drivers !!

+ adding an extra day to the testing

Edited July 2, 2013 by ignis

[ignis]

Still cannot work out how they can test tyres for the 2014 cars when they are not ready yet......... ?

The new F1 2014 cars will be heavier and faster, so how can tyres be made and tested in May 2013 ?

Guess will be like Le Mans both the Diesel and petrol Hybrid were far faster, watched it Live on TV the other day on Euro Sport.

[Totster]

MSN showbiz page and on there again this morning.

David.

Thanks, he's better off without that tramp anyway IMO

totster

[wackysleet]

Tell it like it is hahahaha.

David.

[b19bry]

Except they closed out the front row of the grid and went on to win the race !

Right, Vettel would have won if his gearbox hadn't stopped working..

There is no proof that they were on the front of the grid as a direct result of the tyre testing. It could be that they are good drivers... perish the thought !!

totster

Seems like plenty of others seem to think 'the test' has turned Mercedes fortunes round :

Mercedes improvement linked to illegal test, say rivals

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/114139.html

[rixalex]

With regards to my singling out Mercedes is simply because they were the team involved in the illegal testing that was compounded by the veil of secrecy although how they figured no one would find out beats me. Ferrari tested previously within the rules, all open and above board.

With regards your question, how did they think nobody would find out.. i don't think they did. The notion of an F1 team doing this sort of fairly intensive testing on an actual F1 circuit, in relative public right after a race has finished, and not doing this testing alone, but in partnership with Pirelli and with all their respective staff present at the track, with the F1 team thinking, as is alleged, that they could do this without revealing what car was being used for the test, and without it ever coming to light who was driving, thanks to the cunning use of black helmets, is a preposterous and ridiculous idea in my opinion.

I don't think Mercedes ever thought it would remain a secret. I think it is far more likely that they knew full well that it would come to light, but they were confident that what they were doing, could be explained away and reasoned by their legal team. I think they took a calculated risk that what they were doing was stretching rules, rather than out and out breaking them. I don't know exactly how the FIA worded their verdict and how damning it was, whether or not they did consider it out and out breaking of rules, but judging from the punishment dished out, it seems they didn't deem it a terribly serious infraction.

You mention about Ferrari operating within the rules, and with regards this tyre testing business, i agree it seems they did, but the way in which Mercedes took a calculated risk by seemingly breaking laws and keeping their fingers crossed they would get away with it, is reminiscent to me of what Ferrari did a short while ago at a time when team orders were illegal. They decided that what the h3ll, the rules were daft and they could gain more by ignoring them than they would lose by following them and getting punished. And so it turned out. They weren't punished.. and more than that, the rules were changed to allow them to go on doing as they wished.

Point is, all teams bend and stretch the rules as far as they can, and sometimes they even take calculated risks by intentionally breaking them. It's not right and should not be allowed to happen, but i think the FIA are the ones to blame. When was the last time a team was disqualified for a season or really given the sort of punishment that would really make them stand up and take notice? I can't remember an occasion. The FIA have become overly officious when it comes to the drivers on race day, but they have gone the other way with regards the teams, in my opinion. Far too soft.

With regards the race, my biggest sympathies go out to Vettel. I think he would have ultimately won the race, even without Lewis's blowout,and Vettel could have done nothing about his DNF. The Mercedes has become a better car on the Sunday, but is still eclipsed by the Red Bull (and i think even the Ferrari), and the way that Webber reeled in Rosberg at the end i think illustrated that Mercedes are not the full package yet.. although they are getting close. One good thing though about Vettel going out was that it does keep the Championship interesting.

Congrats to Rosberg. Yes he may have inherited the win, but he still had to be there.

A lot of great come back drives. Webber made a great come back drive after a terrible start. Alonso did the same after starting from lowly ninth. Lewis came from the very back of pack up to fourth, although he was aided, as other drivers were, by the safety cars. That luck won't have pleased some, although his tyre giving way at the furthest point from the pits will i'm sure have given great satisfaction to them, at a time when they really needed it, considering how their predictions last year of him running around at the back of the pack this year all for the sake of money, have yet to come to fruition.

Save a thought also for Kimi. To have put in all that hard work and to be so well placed, for the team to neglect to bring him in for fresh rubber at the end and leave him as a sitting duck, must have been a hard one for him to swallow.

[wackysleet]

rixalex.

My apparent question as you put it was actually a tongue in cheek remark, pretty obvious that every team would find out about the testing. My concern over this was simply why not invite/inform every team about that test instead of keeping it quiet, after all one does not have to be Einstein to realise that once it became known, that there would most definitely be accusations flying about causing even more friction within the sport, far more sensible to consult with all the teams and demand that there was further testing on the tyres, keep it all open and above board.

You suggest that perhaps Mercedes legal team could sort out the problems after the testing, possibly true if they deemed the tests illegal and if that was the case then {I'm not suggesting it was, you are} then all the more reason the punishment {joke} should have reflected the seriousness of the offence, after all I don't believe even the most naïve among us think that there is any ambiguity in that particular rule.

Indeed, most teams have bent the rules but there is a difference between bending and breaking and as I pointed out in a previous post with regards to changing specs there is always ambiguity in that instance and defining the exact meaning is subjective and frequently the rules in retrospect have been clarified. Certainly other teams have cheated and deserve to be punished whoever it is with no exceptions but I disagree that it is entirely the fault of the FIA, after all Mercedes knew the rule in this case, surely it was "cause and effect".

I do think that Seb would have won but who knows for sure but I have made it known that I do not like Lewis, respect him as a talented driver but my view is and always has been that the best man on the day wins even if it's not one of my preferred favourites, as for Lewis having a blowout and making certain fans happy then in my view they are not fans of the sport.

With regards to those supposed fans who thought/hoped that Lewis would be a back marker were obviously hoping that would be the case but with the money Mercedes were pouring into the sport and the headhunting that was going on it was pretty obvious that was not their intention. As for Lewis possibly moving for the money I guess no one can be sure but in my opinion he is entitled to change his employer in the same way as any other employed person.

In a previous post before Lewis joined Mercedes I tipped Nico for a third position in the WDC driving a Mercedes behind I believe Seb and Fernando.

David.

[ignis]

Save a thought also for Kimi. To have put in all that hard work and to be so well placed, for the team to neglect to bring him in for fresh rubber at the end and leave him as a sitting duck, must have been a hard one for him to swallow.

Yes...... he does not talk a lot on the radio, but he did ask on car to pit radio in last safety car stint about changing tyres, they the team said NO...... no wonder he was a little vocal about the teams after the race.

[rixalex]

My apparent question as you put it was actually a tongue in cheek remark, pretty obvious that every team would find out about the testing.

OK then, so we agree. There are those though who have made much of the black helmets, holding them up as proof of Mercedes having been trying to hide identities, and they seem to be serious.

My concern over this was simply why not invite/inform every team about that test instead of keeping it quiet, after all one does not have to be Einstein to realise that once it became known, that there would most definitely be accusations flying about causing even more friction within the sport, far more sensible to consult with all the teams and demand that there was further testing on the tyres, keep it all open and above board.

Well, if we agree that Mercedes were trying to gain something of an unfair advantage, why would they start sending out invitations to the other teams? Kind of self-defeating, although i agree, it is what they should have done.

You suggest that perhaps Mercedes legal team could sort out the problems after the testing, possibly true if they deemed the tests illegal and if that was the case then {I'm not suggesting it was, you are} then all the more reason the punishment {joke} should have reflected the seriousness of the offence, after all I don't believe even the most naïve among us think that there is any ambiguity in that particular rule.

Indeed, most teams have bent the rules but there is a difference between bending and breaking and as I pointed out in a previous post with regards to changing specs there is always ambiguity in that instance and defining the exact meaning is subjective and frequently the rules in retrospect have been clarified. Certainly other teams have cheated and deserve to be punished whoever it is with no exceptions but I disagree that it is entirely the fault of the FIA, after all Mercedes knew the rule in this case, surely it was "cause and effect".

I don't think the FIA are entirely to blame, but i do think that if it doesn't properly punish wrong-doing, it can hardly be surprised when teams go on trying their luck and pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with. Do you not agree that the FIA has a history of being soft on teams?

[wackysleet]

rixalex.

I agree entirely that the FIA are too bloody soft and it seems to be softer with the bigger teams who by their very nature have more public appeal and support than the teams who just make up the numbers. What do you think would have happened if Mercedes had said, if you penalize us for points or in anyway we don't like then we will leave the sport, of course that is hypothetical but you see the point it would make the FIA appear to be a toothless bulldog.

What really has stuck in my throat is that sanctimonious Ross Brawn believes that the FIA exonerated Mercedes and now they can move on, sounds to me another way of saying "we got away with that transgression haha".

The very nature of the sport and the amount of money available to certain teams will always bring those teams to the top, with the exception of Maclaren this year so it's never really been a level playing field for years now and unless the viewing/paying public pass comment on the sport it will not be truly representative of what we really want to see. Red Bull, Ferrari, Mercedes, Lotus and Maclaren lock out but one must be careful of rule changes with regards to finance to ensure we do not end up as another A1.

David.

[rixalex]

rixalex.

I agree entirely that the FIA are too bloody soft and it seems to be softer with the bigger teams who by their very nature have more public appeal and support than the teams who just make up the numbers. What do you think would have happened if Mercedes had said, if you penalize us for points or in anyway we don't like then we will leave the sport, of course that is hypothetical but you see the point it would make the FIA appear to be a toothless bulldog.

What really has stuck in my throat is that sanctimonious Ross Brawn believes that the FIA exonerated Mercedes and now they can move on, sounds to me another way of saying "we got away with that transgression haha".

The very nature of the sport and the amount of money available to certain teams will always bring those teams to the top, with the exception of Maclaren this year so it's never really been a level playing field for years now and unless the viewing/paying public pass comment on the sport it will not be truly representative of what we really want to see. Red Bull, Ferrari, Mercedes, Lotus and Maclaren lock out but one must be careful of rule changes with regards to finance to ensure we do not end up as another A1.

David.

Yep, totally agree. The FIA constantly lives in fear of biting the hand that feeds it, and their decisions often reflect this. And when you have a man like Todt as President, what else should we expect?

[rixalex]

I do think that Seb would have won but who knows for sure but I have made it known that I do not like Lewis, respect him as a talented driver but my view is and always has been that the best man on the day wins even if it's not one of my preferred favourites, as for Lewis having a blowout and making certain fans happy then in my view they are not fans of the sport.

With regards to those supposed fans who thought/hoped that Lewis would be a back marker were obviously hoping that would be the case but with the money Mercedes were pouring into the sport and the headhunting that was going on it was pretty obvious that was not their intention. As for Lewis possibly moving for the money I guess no one can be sure but in my opinion he is entitled to change his employer in the same way as any other employed person.

I respect that.

I think where you stand on Lewis is the same place as i stand on Alonso. Yes, I really don't like him as a man (don't much care for his mustachio either ), but i recognise his abilities and his importance to the sport.

Last season when Lewis signed for Mercedes and there were those on hear rubbing their hands together with glee at the prospect, so they thought, of Lewis being a back-marker, i really couldn't understand how or why real F1 fans would feel this way. I genuinely wouldn't get any satisfaction at all from seeing Alonso becoming a back-marker. The sport needs its best drivers at the front of the field, in decent machinery, displaying what they are capable of.

[Guest]

BBC Sport F1 2013 - 08 British GP - Post-Race: Did this kerb cause Silverstone tyre chaos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98GB1I2TyrE

Edited July 3, 2013 by Guest

[Totster]

BBC Sport F1 2013 - 08 British GP - Post-Race: Did this kerb cause Silverstone tyre chaos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98GB1I2TyrE

Well, Pirelli are pretty much blaming everyone else for the tyre fails, everything and everyone apart from them are to blame (according to Pirelli)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23155008

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23141389

totster:)

[Guest]

90% of F1 is soap opera uh.. politics for boys:)

That video was anyway from the BBC crew, who might not be the first ones to blame local track for the tyre punctures.

I hope they would bring back the fueling stops (even if those can be dangerous) and mandatory 2-4 stops to each track so that the boys can drive around the track with full speed all the time.

Now Ferrari told that in season 2014 the cars will have 100kg fuel, which together with 5 engine limit means that the cars will have to slow down their speeds for half of the race lengths.