The Importance Of Preparing A Will In Thailand

[JimGant]

Do I need a separate will in Thailand when all my assets and property of any value is in Europe. I'm married to a Thai and live 10months annually in Thailand!

No bank account? Then, probably no need for a separate Thai Will just to make sure your wife will get your toothbrush and bicycle.

But, if you have a bank account, even joint, take the time to at least write in longhand a Will-- and for good measure (as it's not required for a holographic Will) have two witnesses, not beneficiaries. Your wife may, or may not, need this Will to free up your bank account -- even joint (as some on this forum have reported).

And, if you both die in the same car crash, where you stuff (junk) goes to -- a favorite niece, perhaps -- will have the skids greased. Same argument for the wife having at least a simple holographic Will. Or, maybe it doesn't make any difference -- let those pesky relatives argue over your golf clubs.

My two cents, for what it's worth....

[simple1]

Do I need a separate will in Thailand when all my assets and property of any value is in Europe. I'm married to a Thai and live 10months annually in Thailand!

No bank account? Then, probably no need for a separate Thai Will just to make sure your wife will get your toothbrush and bicycle.

But, if you have a bank account, even joint, take the time to at least write in longhand a Will-- and for good measure (as it's not required for a holographic Will) have two witnesses, not beneficiaries. Your wife may, or may not, need this Will to free up your bank account -- even joint (as some on this forum have reported).

And, if you both die in the same car crash, where you stuff (junk) goes to -- a favorite niece, perhaps -- will have the skids greased. Same argument for the wife having at least a simple holographic Will. Or, maybe it doesn't make any difference -- let those pesky relatives argue over your golf clubs.

My two cents, for what it's worth....

If for a Thai bank account, has to be written in Thai or tranlated into Thai and notarised

Edited September 16, 2014 by simple1

[JimGant]

If for a Thai bank account, has to be written in Thai or tranlated into Thai and notarised

Sounds like the situation reported on one of these Will threads, where a certain bank manager required the Thai language/notarization criteria to release the bank account to the named beneficiary -- without having to go through probate. And, as we're seeing, different bank managers have different criteria regarding releasing bank accounts to beneficiaries -- with or without probate. However, a simple handwritten Will, whether or not in Thai, is considered "valid" if written in accordance with the rules (e.g., being of required age). However, a bank manager would probably be more likely to require probate if strictly handwritten, with no witnesses, nor notarization. But even that situation sure beats not having a Will.

[Felt 35]

Do I need a separate will in Thailand when all my assets and property of any value is in Europe. I'm married to a Thai and live 10months annually in Thailand!

No bank account? Then, probably no need for a separate Thai Will just to make sure your wife will get your toothbrush and bicycle.

But, if you have a bank account, even joint, take the time to at least write in longhand a Will-- and for good measure (as it's not required for a holographic Will) have two witnesses, not beneficiaries. Your wife may, or may not, need this Will to free up your bank account -- even joint (as some on this forum have reported).

And, if you both die in the same car crash, where you stuff (junk) goes to -- a favorite niece, perhaps -- will have the skids greased. Same argument for the wife having at least a simple holographic Will. Or, maybe it doesn't make any difference -- let those pesky relatives argue over your golf clubs.

My two cents, for what it's worth....

Bank account yes, but there its anytime never more than my monthly income. We are married after the law both in Thailand and my home country so my wife will be okay if I die first, yes she get the bicycle (How you know I'm a cyclist? ) and after the law in my home country inherit a house in Europe with a good Western marked value + a pension from she is 55 -67 years old.

If we both die at same time, then I believe the will written back home comes to use, and its here my question comes in. If I have no will in Thailand but in home country and as you said we both die, can here family in Thailand demand anything as long as property and assets are in Europe?

[zapatero]

Suppose one creates two wills, one for Thailand and one for home country. What is the implication of the term "Last"? Can/should both wills be labeled "Last Will and Testament"? Is the implication that the one with the latest date will take precedence?

(I understand and agree that one needs to be specific about the country-scope of each document, my question is only in regard to the title of the documents.)

[JimGant]

Can/should both wills be labeled "Last Will and Testament"? Is the implication that the one with the latest date will take precedence?

Not sure why amplification info, not necessarily in legalese language, could not be added, e.g. "Last Will and Testament for my assets located in Thailand." Maybe even with a reference to the other Last Will and Testament for assets located in UK, US, "not in Thailand," whatever.

As the example below shows, such amplification most likely would have prevented the necessity for court action:

In a recent case, there was considerable confusion for the heirs of a man who died with two wills – one made in England and the other in a foreign country where he owned property. The difficulty arose because his foreign will – which was only intended to apply to the assets he owned in the foreign country – specified that it revoked all prior wills.

Although the “revoke all prior wills” clause is standard form language in a will, in that case it was not what the testator intended to do. He wanted to have two wills that worked in parallel – one for the bulk of his estate in the UK and one for his foreign assets. Fortunately, it seems that the court accepted that the man had not intended to revoke his English will, but the case (and the fact that it went to court) illustrates the potential for mishaps.

http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/estate_planning/other_estate_planning_topics/500272.html

Several common sense guidance on Google, such as:

Is there a downside to having two Wills?

Exercise great caution that the foreign Will does not revoke the domestic Will

and vice versa.

Each Will should contain a Declaration that such Will is to apply to property

within a particular jurisdiction or to which that jurisdiction’s laws apply and it

should also say “This Declaration also applies to the revocation clause

contained in this my will.”

[zapatero]

Good response, Jim. I concur with your amplification recommendation.

I am still struggling with the labeling/titling issue though, but from a different perspective. Perhaps I am just trying to put too fine a point on it (?)

Suppose I title the document, "Last Will and Testament for my assets located in Thailand", as you have suggested. "Will" and "Testament" customarily pertain to the disposition of real and personal property don't they? But I need to include additional clauses in the document that relate to, for example, guardianship of my young son, references to my Living Will/Advance Healthecare Directive, and funeral and remains disposal wishes. Now, suddenly, the scope of this document becomes greater than "Last Will and Testament for my assets located in Thailand" doesn't it?

So my question: Do you have any suggestions for an even further extension, or change, of title? Or am I just trying to be more precise than is necessary?

[JimGant]

Imprecise titling certainly won't invalidate the stated wishes contained in your Will, so I wouldn't ponder too much over that. But, you might want to consider what shouldn't be included:

But I need to include additional clauses in the document that relate to, for example, guardianship of my young son, references to my Living Will/Advance Healthecare Directive, and funeral and remains disposal wishes.

References to your Living Will might not be warranted, since those wishes will have been overcome by events by the time your Will is administered.

Why not use my will to leave instructions for my final ceremonies and the disposition of my body?

A will is not a good place to express your death and burial preferences for one simple reason: Your will might not be located and read until several weeks after you die -- long after decisions must be made. A will should be reserved for directions on how to divide and distribute your property and, if applicable, who should get care and custody of your children if you die while they're still young.

[zapatero]

Yeah, you are right Jim. It had been stuck in my mind that my wife would be familiar with the location and contents of my will already, so having in there a reminder of my healtcare directive and funeral wishes might provide a bit of comforting reassurance during a time of stress.

But the now obvious flaw in that thinking -- what if we both might die or become incapacitated at the same time?

You are right -- better to express those wishes separately.

[maphraw]

I can't understand why I, or my Thai wife, would need a will for joint bank accounts. My Thai wife has complete access to our joint accounts as do I. We don't need each other's permission to withdraw money from the accounts. It stands to reason that if one of us dies the other has a right to continue to have complete access to the funds in the joint account. Same with our Thai mutual funds. They are joint accounts. I guess the only way to get clarification on this is to ask a competent bank official or manager.

[maphraw]

I got it. It is 50/50 ownership. So if I die, the wife needs a will to claim my 50%. Silly me.

[nong38]

I have been badgering the other half on this subject today and we have made some progress which might be of use to some of you out there.

There is the issue of the will and whether you use a lawyer or not, whether the will should be in Thai and or English ( would you sign something you could not read?) and when you die what happens?

Today we have found, well the wife has through facebook) that we a a lawyer living on the estate where we are and we have arranged to meet him for a chat on this subject on friday after which I will perhaps some much more concrete info for you.

At the moment he is asking for copies of passport page, blue/yellow book. I will give him the will I have drafted as well. From what the wife says he will do copies of the will in English and Thai, 3 copies of each, we have one each and he will keep one at the office, cost 2500bts for me 2500bts for the wife.

When death occurs the relevant papers go the Provincial Court for the rubber stamping, he said he would go as well to make sure things happened as expected, the fee here is 6500bts, which I understand to be from the Provincial Court for their work.

I will get back later with any further developments, I hope that answers a few questions, but there are others I want to ask clarification on as well and I dont know if he can speak or read/write English himself, await .

[nong38]

Today we went to see the Thai lawyer, as you can imagine there are going to be copies required, but some things which you need to add to add to lists!

Witnesses should provide Thai ID number and if possible copies of the blue/yellow book pages.

Bank customer reference numbers, although I would have thought it would suffice ona list of assets.

My basic will which I drafted is fine and needs to be translated into Thai and attached.

We need to get the witnesses to see me sign the will, they then countersign the English and Thai versions.

The 6500 bts I mentioned previously is for doing the work of or assisting the executor, basically getting the death certifciate and will to the provincial court and getting it approved ( so that assets can be released.)

The cost of the will is 2500bts per person as I mentioned above, 3 copies.

Hope that helps a little bit more.

Edited December 5, 2014 by nong38

[maphraw]

In my wife's village, where there are quite a few expats living, I was told that when an expat dies the wife takes the death certificate and marriage certificate to the bank and the bank then transfers everything to her name or account.Even without a will. Especially if one is well known or often seen in the bank. I don't recommend relying on this kind of procedure. I sent an email to Siam Commercial Bank asking if I needed a will for a joint bank account. They replied saying that, in the event if my death, my wife could keep using the account until there was no longer any money in it. But once the account was empty, she would have to open a new account. As for our mutual fund with Krungsri Asset Management, they said I would definitely need a will to transfer funds to a single account. I sent an email to Krungsri Bank asking if we would need a will for our joint accounts and they said yes.Our local bank manager then called us and asked us to come to the bank and discuss the procedure used to transfer funds in the event of one of our deaths. I talked to a lawyer in my wife's village, one recommended by a number of expats, and he said it is best to have a will but if the bank accounts are joint accounts, my wife or I would not have much difficulty in getting the account changed to a single account either of our names.,even without a will. He seemed to say that, especially because we have no children, a death certificate and marriage certificate would do the job. He was very generous with his time explaining the procedures that we would have to go through in the event that one of us dies. It did not try to convince us or pressure us to use his services. But, just to be on the safe side, we are going to have him do our will. He said he would keep a copy in his office and since he lives near by we could consult him if either of us ran into a problem. I don't think I need to have an English translation since I can read Thai. 2000 Baht for everything which sounds reasonable. One law firm I contacted in Pattaya wanted 15,000 Baht. One in Korat wanted 4,500 Baht.

Any comments?

[craigt3365]

I was with my neighbors a few days ago and they are involved in a real mess. A foreigner married to a Thai lady passed away last year. They have a joint account here and after his passing, she went to the bank to get the money out. Some 2MM Baht. Since it was joint, they let her take out 1MM, but said since there was no Thai will, she can't get the other 1/2. Documents needed are the deceased parent's birth certificates, etc.

She's been fighting this for over a year and is about ready to give up. They were married overseas and have a will done in his home country. A real mess.

[MarkOZ]

We do Last Will and Testiments for 15,000 Baht.

[chiang mai]

We do Last Will and Testiments for 15,000 Baht.

In which case you're about THB 10k over priced, next!

[johnnybgood]

We do Last Will and Testiments for 15,000 Baht.

In which case you're about THB 10k over priced, next!

CM ............good to see you're back posting again.........

see you in the" financial section "

[TheFishman1]

Did will in CM 7000 bht

[elektrified]

Has anyone used http://www.thailandlawonline.com to buy a Last Will and Testament? Reputable?

I was thinking of getting one from them (740 THB).

Thanks in advance.

[stephenb465]

Hi there

I live in Chiang Mai and its about time I write up a will, I have written it in English but not in Thai as yet.

Do I need to translate it, if so, who would you recommend in Chiang Mai. Thanks

Sent from my HTC One mini using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[chiang mai]

Hi there

I live in Chiang Mai and its about time I write up a will, I have written it in English but not in Thai as yet.

Do I need to translate it, if so, who would you recommend in Chiang Mai. Thanks

Sent from my HTC One mini using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Kuhn Sumalee of 29 Tanin is the usual recommendation, she's very good and speaks perfect English. On the ground floor of the Punna Condo. building, just this side of CMU, on the left hand side. Google 29 Tanin Chiang Mai for a map.

[zlodnick]

We are going tomorrow to register our wills at the local Amphur.

We definatly need the two witnesses and an official stamp would be a nice touch, but why do we need to leave a copy with them? Will it make any difference to a judge if the will has been sitting in a drawer at the Amphur, rather than in a strongbox at our house?

[zlodnick]

Just got back from the Amphur. No way Jose, Farang cant register a will at the Amphur. Must do with a lawyer.

OK then, my wife will just register her will, she is Thai. No can do,either because she is leaving everything to a farang and farang cant own land. I explained that the law says I wont own the land and will have to sell it within one year. Answer, still no!

Well, one more try. How about I get a usufruct? Answer, No, farang cant have a usufruct.

Im getting the feeling maybe they dont like farangs at that office.

[chiang mai]

Just got back from the Amphur. No way Jose, Farang cant register a will at the Amphur. Must do with a lawyer.

OK then, my wife will just register her will, she is Thai. No can do,either because she is leaving everything to a farang and farang cant own land. I explained that the law says I wont own the land and will have to sell it within one year. Answer, still no!

Well, one more try. How about I get a usufruct? Answer, No, farang cant have a usufruct.

Im getting the feeling maybe they dont like farangs at that office.

You'll forgive me but none of what you've written reflects my first hand experiences not those of friends or the experiences I've read on TV in the past.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

We are going tomorrow to register our wills at the local Amphur.

We definatly need the two witnesses and an official stamp would be a nice touch, but why do we need to leave a copy with them? Will it make any difference to a judge if the will has been sitting in a drawer at the Amphur, rather than in a strongbox at our house?

If you're concerned about privacy, the amphurs have something they do called a private will, which our amphur in BKK said is the method most farangs here use.

In that route, the will document is sealed by you and they simply accept and register the sealed envelope. In the other route, the will is actually read out before the witnesses and then accepted by the amphur.

From what I've been able to gather, the amphur keeps the will document (though you certainly can keep copies at home) and gives the will-maker a receipt that can be used to retrieve the document upon the will-maker's passing, presumably by his executor and/or beneficiary.

[zlodnick]

chaing mai,

I understand others have had good experiences registering wills at thier amphur. Im just relating my experience. My local amphur is in a small Issan community and very seldom deal with farangs.

Several years ago I tried to get a yellow book there and they had no idea what I was talking about, They just kept saying Farang cant have Tabien Baan.

Actually, I think its a matter of face. There are always several people in the office and they are all interested in what the farang is doing there. The amphur officials would lose face if they admitted they didnt know something. Instead of saying they didnt know what a usufruct was, It was a face saver just to say a farang cant have one.

To me its not a big deal. Ive been here long enough to know how the system works. I think of dealing with the government as an adventure not a problem.

Anyway, When it comes to these wills, Im sure most will agree, weather you paid 50 baht at the amphur or 50,000 to some hi-so lawyer in Bangkok, you have no idea what will happen when the time comes and you try to settle an estate. TIT, right?

[JimGant]

Elektrified, I see you asked the Somsak lawyer about a simple Will (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/792584-last-will-and-testament-from-thailandlawonline/ ) and he replied:

However. if your will is simple, then you can write it in your own handwriting and register it. Thailand does recognize holographic wills.

Register it? That's a new wrinkle. Register it with who? I asked Somsak lawyer a year ago about Amphur Wills -- and he said that they were a poor man's Will, and only in the preparation sense, since Amphur prepared Wills still needed to go thru probate court. That was a kick -- as much discussion on this forum about Amphur Wills had them as self-probating. But, are Amphurs the link to registration? If so, are lawyer prepared Wills also required to be registered with your local Amphur?

And the private Amphur Will that John talks about -- that would seem an excellent way to register/bless one's Will. And, for some time, I believed what I had heard and read elsewhere -- that Amphur Wills are self-probating -- thus you avoid needng a lawyer, and needing to go through probate court. Why else would there be Amphur Wills?

Well, maybe after all, it is just for registration/legal validation. If you think about it, a private Will, submitted to the Amphur and sealed with witnessing signatures, will need to be opened in front on some one that can add validation stamps. But, if opened in front of your local banker, he may be impressed enough to honor it -- without probate. But, with now an unsealed envelope, the next person you show it to won't be impressed. So, it makes sense that the first person you present this sealed private Will to is the probate judge. Then, he can put the necessary chops on it -- to satisfy both the cautious banker and land office honcho -- and whoever else.

Anyway, a few years back, I went round and round with Chiang Mai about the need for a lawyer. I now defer to his judgment, as a lawyer prepared Will seems the way to go. If you're going to end up in probate anyway, might as well already have the services of a lawyer, particularly one who had prepared your Will. And as far as registration at the Amphur with a lawyer prepared Will? Well, a lawyer prepared Will carries notarization authority, which, I would certainly believe, carries enough weight to enter probate court -- with no Amphur chop required.

There's just too much uncertainty about executing Wills in Thailand. I only have bank accounts, that need to go to the wife. And she can live nicely without needing to inherit these accounts on a timely basis. But, why take a chance on drawing out matters -- just for trying to avoid hiring a lawyer..... And this is more important for the wife's Will, as she has the land, house, cars, bank accounts that need go my direction without too much hassle. And if probate is required (which more and more it seems it will be), hiring a lawyer now seems to be in order.

Edited January 21, 2015 by JimGant

[chiang mai]

chaing mai,

I understand others have had good experiences registering wills at thier amphur. Im just relating my experience. My local amphur is in a small Issan community and very seldom deal with farangs.

Several years ago I tried to get a yellow book there and they had no idea what I was talking about, They just kept saying Farang cant have Tabien Baan.

Actually, I think its a matter of face. There are always several people in the office and they are all interested in what the farang is doing there. The amphur officials would lose face if they admitted they didnt know something. Instead of saying they didnt know what a usufruct was, It was a face saver just to say a farang cant have one.

To me its not a big deal. Ive been here long enough to know how the system works. I think of dealing with the government as an adventure not a problem.

Anyway, When it comes to these wills, Im sure most will agree, weather you paid 50 baht at the amphur or 50,000 to some hi-so lawyer in Bangkok, you have no idea what will happen when the time comes and you try to settle an estate. TIT, right?

No, not right! If you spend some money and have a will drawn up by a reputable lawyer you can fully expect that your wishes will be followed to the letter and that the entire legal system will support that.

[zlodnick]

You're kidding, right?