Must Read---- How My Friend Lost 15K Baht W His Bangkok Bank Debit Visa

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I have an account with Kasikorn and requested them to lower the amount that the debit card would enable a purchase in a shop to ZERO.

This effectively make the card an exclusive ATM card.

Problem solved.

Bangkok Bank's telephone banking system also will allow their Be1st cardholders to check their POS daily limit, and adjust the limit as well. Also can set the card to 0 for POS, meaning purchases would not be allowed. You just need to call and enter your card number and 4 digit PIN number for the card.

Last time I checked, you couldn't make that change thru BKKB's online (Internet) banking system. But you can make the change through their automated telephone system.

I wouldn't carry a Be1st card anywhere without having its POS daily amount set to ZERO. Other than zero, the next lowest choices are 20,000 or 50,000 baht.

The one time I had a U.S. bank card stolen in Thailand, the thieves rang up almost $1,000 U.S. in charges at a local mall in less than the approximately one hour it took me to get home from the Skytrain and call my bank to report the card stolen (since it was part of my wallet that was pickpocketed while riding on the BTS).

Fortunately because it was a U.S. issued bank card, I got 100% of those fraudulent charges refunded to my account within about two weeks. Had it been a Thai bank card, I would have been S... O.... L....

Edited February 18, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Bpuumike]

A lot to do with the merchants simply not checking signatures of cards/slips, combined with the banks refusing to punish the merchants (i.e. not paying the merchant if signature doesn't match).

If you can't remember your PIN, which they often don't ask for anyway, then any old signature will do.

As posted earlier, how can you expect a Thai person to distinguish some farang signature.

Very good advice already given to keep a 'minor' operating account and not have a debit card against a more serious money account.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If you can't remember your PIN, which they often don't ask for anyway, then any old signature will do.

Generally speaking in Thailand, there is no PIN-based system widely deployed for use in making POS purchases with VISA/MC debit cards. It's pretty much all swipe and sign, which offers ZERO security.

At least in other countries where a PIN system is required and/or often available for POS purchases, the cardholderis provided at least some security. Why such a system has never been deployed in Thailand, I don't know or understand.

BTW, I don't buy the notion that Thais can't recognize an English characters signature. I can't read Thai, but I certainly can visually recognize a string of characters and whether they are the same or different from another string, or even more basically, whether the handwriting style looks the same.

Of course, right now, that doesn't really matter most of the time anyway, since the typical Thai cashier NEVER bothers to check the signature on the back of a credit or debit card anyway, regardless of whether the customer is Thai or farang.

Put it all together (lack of card security combined with lack of legal fraud protection for the cardholder), and you'd almost think it's a system that's been designed by and for thieves... Ohh... now that I think about it... !!!

Edited February 19, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[monty]

I also do not buy into the "cannot read Western script" excuse for not being able to check the signature.They simply do not look at them.

It has worked fine for eons in the Traveler cheque era, where signatures had to match to a very high degree or the issuer didn't pay out. Then they could check the signatures! Wrong signature accepted and they did not get money!

And it goes as far as sales clerks accepting credit/debit cards in foreign names used by and signed of by Thai persons. Maybe those clerks also have problems distinguishing the ethnicity of people????

I have no idea why the chip and pin system from Bangkok bank (which works quite well) is not being copied by the other banks. It's not only POS sales security, but also security at ATM's as these cards cannot get skimmed. Bangkok bank has all their atm machines upgraded in a very short time, at least I haven't found one yet not compatible with the new cards.

All the ATM machine vendors (Diebold, Siemens,...) have upgrade modules to accept the chip cards, no need to replace complete machines...

And I guess all the POS machines can handle chip and pin cards, at least the one I had in the business I ran 3 years ago could handle UK chip and pin cards just fine. It actually printed out a slip clearly stating "PIN authenticated, no signature required".

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Monty, I'm no banking technology expert, but I think the BKK Bank approach is not the ideal solution.

By offering a particular chip and PIN approach/option for their Be1st cards, anyone choosing that particular card automatically is unable to use them in ANY of the other Thai banks' machines. And if I recall correctly, also unable to use them in many other countries outside Thailand including the U.S.

Admittedly, the chip feature does prevent/fight card skimming. But if they had gone at least with the more basic PIN system for POS purchases, that's something that's widely used around the world. And at least would prevent the widespread swipe and sign fraud that leaves every cardholder in Thailand vulnerable (unless they've disabled POS on their account).

I've never opted for BKK Bank's chip/pin card option because of its limited use problems as mentioned above. But if they offered a PIN based card that could be used pretty much everywhere including other banks' ATMs, then I'd take that in a minute.

Let me add, I do see PIN code entry pads sometimes at various merchants around town, but I never see them used by any customers, so it's not clear to me just what they're there for. To adopt a PIN-based POS system, I don't know whether it would require all new terminals at the countless merchants here....or whether they could implement that with their existing equipment.

Edited February 19, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[monty]

I'm no banking technology expert either, but my guess is that the technology is not different at all, but rather that there is a lack of agreements etc. to have their system tie in with other banks and/or countries. More like a communication/protocol problem. I doubt Diebold and the other ATM machine makers have designed a system specifically only for Bangkok bank, pretty sure it's simply existing stuff.

The pin keypads you see are used when customers from abroad use their pin and chip cards. Most notable from the UK.

I had a POS unit (no separate pin keypad) before, and with several UK customers the customer actually had to come up to the POS machine to enter his PIN for the transaction to go through. No subsequent signature needed.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

That sounds right, Monty...

It's pretty sad that BKKB couldn't get together with the other Thai banks to work out a comprehensive solution at least for everyone inside Thailand.

You'll recall, via the Thai Bankers Assn., of which BKKB and all the other Thai banks are members, they had no problem collectively implementing the 150 baht fee on foreign bank card withdrawals...

Too bad they couldn't/haven't yet been able to manage the same collective approach to the security of Thai bank cards.

[phutoie2]

This is a good topic, I for one did not realise that you could have an ATM machine Debit card only with Bangkok Bank. I have a BE1st card which I find useful at the local fuel station and Tesco's, you could write "Micky Mouse" or anything on those slips they give you to sign. Never seen them checked.

One thing I have always done here is not to keep big bucks in my main savings account with the ATM card, so if it was stolen it would not be too much!, if I want big amounts to withdraw I always do it in the branch with a passbook from my other savings account.

Edited February 19, 2013 by phutoie2

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It's the same Be1st card with BKKB... They used to have an ATM only card (no POS) but no longer do.

Now, it will be a combined ATM/POS card with a VISA logo, meaning it can be used for purchases. But the account holder has the option to go into their account settings via telephone banking and set the POS limit to ZERO, meaning POS would not be allowed.

That's also a setting that can be changed at any time by the account holder, using the same automated telephone system.

[Swiss1960]

I'm no banking technology expert either, but my guess is that the technology is not different at all, but rather that there is a lack of agreements etc. to have their system tie in with other banks and/or countries. More like a communication/protocol problem. I doubt Diebold and the other ATM machine makers have designed a system specifically only for Bangkok bank, pretty sure it's simply existing stuff.

The pin keypads you see are used when customers from abroad use their pin and chip cards. Most notable from the UK.

I had a POS unit (no separate pin keypad) before, and with several UK customers the customer actually had to come up to the POS machine to enter his PIN for the transaction to go through. No subsequent signature needed.

Not only a question of the terminal (POS). If the POS could process EMV (Europay-MasterCard-VISA) chip based transactions, then the backoffice application (for big merchants) or the banking application (for the Thai bank accepting the merchant payments) would also need to be enhanced to accept the new protocols.

No integration at all needed with other banks / countries, only certification activities with VISA / MC / AMEX etc.

Actually the decision whether PIN or signature shall be used for purchase authorisation is made in a communication between POS and card, they exchange their individual, prioritized authorization lists and choose the highest common one.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In many years of living in Thailand, using a wide variety of U.S. issued VISA and MC debit cards for purchases at a wide range of retailers, I've never once been asked or given the choice of doing a PIN based purchase.

If I was making the same purchases with the same cards in the U.S., most of the debit card transactions would require a PIN entry.

[monty]

In many years of living in Thailand, using a wide variety of U.S. issued VISA and MC debit cards for purchases at a wide range of retailers, I've never once been asked or given the choice of doing a PIN based purchase.

If I was making the same purchases with the same cards in the U.S., most of the debit card transactions would require a PIN entry.

Are those chip cards?

Only cards I've seen in Thailand using pin code are the UK "chip & pin" cards.

[IMA_FARANG]

I guess I'm old fashioned.

My Bangkok Bank ATM/debit card has a maximum DAILY withdrawal of 20K baht.

I get notified by text message every time a debit is made with where and when it is used.

I NEVER use it except in ATMs .... if I buying merchandice I pay cash personally withdrawn by myself.

I once bought a bought a notebook computer fror 25, 000 Baht .... with my valid PIN ... and my debit card was suspended for 48 hours by Bangkok Bank .... until I went there personally and verified the purchase to them.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In many years of living in Thailand, using a wide variety of U.S. issued VISA and MC debit cards for purchases at a wide range of retailers, I've never once been asked or given the choice of doing a PIN based purchase.

If I was making the same purchases with the same cards in the U.S., most of the debit card transactions would require a PIN entry.

Are those chip cards?

Only cards I've seen in Thailand using pin code are the UK "chip & pin" cards.

I think there are couple of small exceptions... But as a general rule, AFAIK, U.S. bank cards pretty much exclusively are the magnetic strip only variety. I've never had nor had the option of having a "chipped" card.

All of my U.S. debit cards would support PIN based POS transactions in the U.S., using the same PIN as used for ATM withdrawals. But here in LOS, for whatever reason, using those same cards only generates swipe and sign POS transactions.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I guess I'm old fashioned.

My Bangkok Bank ATM/debit card has a maximum DAILY withdrawal of 20K baht.

I get notified by text message every time a debit is made with where and when it is used.

I NEVER use it except in ATMs .... if I buying merchandice I pay cash personally withdrawn by myself.

I once bought a bought a notebook computer fror 25, 000 Baht .... with my valid PIN ... and my debit card was suspended for 48 hours by Bangkok Bank .... until I went there personally and verified the purchase to them.

With BKKB Be1st cards, there are two separate daily limits: one for ATM cash withdrawals, and the other for POS purchases.

The cardholder can set various limits for each, including setting the POS amount to ZERO, meaning no POS would be allowed.

At present, the bank gives you the choice between a traditional magnetic strip card, and the newer chip-based card. The downside to the chip-based cards is they can't be used at other Thai bank ATMs and likewise can't be used at many places outside of Thailand. The magnetic strip cards can be used everywhere, but don't have the same level of security (unless you set your POS limit to zero).

[Swiss1960]

In many years of living in Thailand, using a wide variety of U.S. issued VISA and MC debit cards for purchases at a wide range of retailers, I've never once been asked or given the choice of doing a PIN based purchase.

If I was making the same purchases with the same cards in the U.S., most of the debit card transactions would require a PIN entry.

Are those chip cards?

Only cards I've seen in Thailand using pin code are the UK "chip & pin" cards.

I think there are couple of small exceptions... But as a general rule, AFAIK, U.S. bank cards pretty much exclusively are the magnetic strip only variety. I've never had nor had the option of having a "chipped" card.

All of my U.S. debit cards would support PIN based POS transactions in the U.S., using the same PIN as used for ATM withdrawals. But here in LOS, for whatever reason, using those same cards only generates swipe and sign POS transactions.

1) Within Europe, the majority of the cards or chip based. Around 50% of those cards are now set to "Chip&PIN" for POS transactions.

2) Each card has an authorisation list encoded that decides, what kind of authorisation the card would like to make (i.e. Online PIN for Cash, Offline PIN for POS, Online PIN for POS, Signature, no authorisation at all). Additionally, there are counters on the Chip that decide how many offline PIN transactions are allowed before the card must go online or counters that say how many contactless transactions up to which combined amounts are allowed before contact is requested.

3) Each POS has an equal list of acceptable authorisations. Card and PSO will now compare their authorisation lists and find the highest possible authorisation method.

4) all my personal Swiss cards (from 3 banks, 3 brands, debit and credit) are set for Chip&PIN but of course accept signature. Within Thailand, most terminals only allow signature, but once in a while I find a PIN terminal (i.e. Central Festival Foodhall Pattaya). ATM cash advance is Online PIN only

5) Online PIN is also possible with magstripe cards, i.e. US magstripe cards. However, those cards will NOT allow offline PIN check, as their are not enough security features (cryptograms and keys to encode and check PIN values) are available on the magstripe only cards.

As an add-on for the US: Since all major credit card brands have announced liability shifts for EMV transactions (i.e. for fraudulent transactions, the party not having EMV on POS or Card will be liable for any fraud), you can expect a massive rollout of chip cards and EMV terminals within the next years to come.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As an add-on for the US: Since all major credit card brands have announced liability shifts for EMV transactions (i.e. for fraudulent transactions, the party not having EMV on POS or Card will be liable for any fraud), you can expect a massive rollout of chip cards and EMV terminals within the next years to come.

Technology will always advance, and hopefully, the financial industry will take advantage of technology to make future bank card products more secure.

But the issue of cardholder liability for fraudulent debit and credit card transactions involving U.S. issued cards is not mainly governed by policies of the card syndicates or banks.

The details of how much, if any, a cardholder is liable for in cases of fraud are clearly and specifically spelled out in U.S. federal law, both for credit and debit cards.

Those are the rules that really govern cardholder liability. And any policies promulated by VISA, MC etc. would have to operate within the limits of that federal law.

I suppose the law on cardholder liability in the U.S. could be changed in the future. But I haven't heard any indication that there's any such talk underway.

Edited February 20, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Swiss1960]

As an add-on for the US: Since all major credit card brands have announced liability shifts for EMV transactions (i.e. for fraudulent transactions, the party not having EMV on POS or Card will be liable for any fraud), you can expect a massive rollout of chip cards and EMV terminals within the next years to come.

Technology will always advance, and hopefully, the financial industry will take advantage of technology to make future bank card products more secure.

But the issue of cardholder liability for fraudulent debit and credit card transactions involving U.S. issued cards is not mainly governed by policies of the card syndicates or banks.

The details of how much, if any, a cardholder is liable for in cases of fraud are clearly and specifically spelled out in U.S. federal law, both for credit and debit cards.

Those are the rules that really govern cardholder liability. And any policies promulated by VISA, MC etc. would have to operate within the limits of that federal law.

I suppose the law on cardholder liability in the U.S. could be changed in the future. But I haven't heard any indication that there's any such talk underway.

You are right from a cardholder perspective, and I don't expect the liability laws in the US to change at all. But you need to see it from a card scheme / bank / merchant perspective in order to realize why they want to migrate to EMV:

1) From a Card Scheme perspective, the non-EMV situation in the US is a huge pain in the ass, because the fraud that occurs there does not only affect the US cardholders but every person using her card within the US. And - at least within Europe - the liability regulations towards the cardholder are almost the same as in the US. I for one was always refunded for every transaction that I disputed.

2) From a US Bank perspective, the losses they have due to writing off fraudulent transactions grows more and more and with EMV and an according liability shift, they will be able to do much more chargeback to the point of fraud (i.e. merchants).

3) From a Merchant persective, if they offer EMV and PIN options on their terminals - together with an according liability shift - they can also reject any chargebacks from banks if they can proove that they offered EMV and PIN capabilities.

Thus, the change in the US will not influence any law but is in the interest of banks and merchants in order to reduce not only the fraud itself through offering higher security (Chip&PIN as one example) but also reducing the write-off amounts through liability shifts.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

That's fine, Swiss...

I was just trying to clarify that your earlier comments should not have been read as to suggest that there was some kind of liability shift in the U.S. that would increase cardholders' liability for fraudulent card activities. That's not the case.

As for Thailand, do you have any sense of whether the banking industry here will ever move to a more secure debit and credit card system -- one that better protects both the cardholders and the banks from losses associated with card fraud, by preventing the fraud in the first place?

[Swiss1960]

That's fine, Swiss...

I was just trying to clarify that your earlier comments should not have been read as to suggest that there was some kind of liability shift in the U.S. that would increase cardholders' liability for fraudulent card activities. That's not the case.

As for Thailand, do you have any sense of whether the banking industry here will ever move to a more secure debit and credit card system -- one that better protects both the cardholders and the banks from losses associated with card fraud, by preventing the fraud in the first place?

Well... technical fraud prevention needs investments into SW systems, card technology and POS technology... investments need a business case, the incentive for such a business case could come through various channels (without any order of priority or likelihood):

- Thai consumer protection laws making banks responsible for Thai-Thai fraud

- Card Schemes putting liability shifts onto Asia, forcing Thai banks / merchants to bear foreign fraud

- Card Schemes drastically changing interchange fees, so that non-EMV transactions will cost the Thai Merchant more and will give less income to the Thai Issuer

[AlexDorneles]

If they only require your fingerprint instead of signature for POS purchases the fraud would be almost gone overnight.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Dunno if this is potentially real or entirely fiction...

But I've actually seen a couple of TV shows or movies in past years where the bad guys (in those stories) killed and then cut off someone's thumb or other finger in order to gain access to some fingerprint-secured area, like military or government security installations.

Bank card fraud is bad enough. But I'd sure hate to get killed and dismembered over it...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Well... technical fraud prevention needs investments into SW systems, card technology and POS technology... investments need a business case, the incentive for such a business case could come through various channels (without any order of priority or likelihood):

- Thai consumer protection laws making banks responsible for Thai-Thai fraud

- Card Schemes putting liability shifts onto Asia, forcing Thai banks / merchants to bear foreign fraud

- Card Schemes drastically changing interchange fees, so that non-EMV transactions will cost the Thai Merchant more and will give less income to the Thai Issuer

Unfortunately, as long as the total absence of Thai consumer protection laws here continues to allow Thai banks to dump all fraud related charges onto their own cardholders (even when the cardholders aren't to blame in any way for the fraud), it would seem unlikely the banks themselves have much of an incentive to change/improve.

It would only be if the banks and the merchants were to begin to be held financially responsible for the fraud-vulnerable system they've created, then things might begin to change.

It's pretty sad, and a clear indictment of the local system here, to hear the member's account posted above of having written "Ask for ID" as the signature on his bank card purchase transactions slips, and then the merchants here accepting that as his signature for purchases.

Edited February 20, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Swiss1960]

Dunno if this is potentially real or entirely fiction...

But I've actually seen a couple of TV shows or movies in past years where the bad guys (in those stories) killed and then cut off someone's thumb or other finger in order to gain access to some fingerprint-secured area, like military or government security installations.

Bank card fraud is bad enough. But I'd sure hate to get killed and dismembered over it...

Not sure it needs killing, cutting off the finger would be enough... but I think even in Thailand, the sales person should be a little perplexed when you take a spare finger out of your pocket in order to do fingerprint verification

But technically, it would be feasible already today (needs again some investment), however the question is whether you want your bank to start collecting (and potentially loosing) your biometrical data... also the question is whether the fingerprint would reside on the chip of the card (thus could potentially be replaced by a fraudster) or within the card issuing bank (which would have implications on the data traffic and speed of authorisation)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Not sure it needs killing, cutting off the finger would be enough... but I think even in Thailand, the sales person should be a little perplexed when you take a spare finger out of your pocket in order to do fingerprint verification

Actually, around here, I don't think the store clerks would even notice...

[Pib]

The wife and I have use our US credit cards and Thai bank debit cards probably 20 times a month here in the Bangkok area (actually we use our US credit cards 95% of the time for point of sale card transactions)...been doing that for the last 5 years or so. Very, very few times did the checkout clerk appear to "glance at/compare" the signature on the receipt and back of the card; the great, great majority of the time they don't even look/compare signatures after they see you scribble a signature on the receipt. Aand quite a few times they hand the card back immediately after they swipe the card and before you sign the receipt. Only one time did a checkout clerk actually do a signature comparison (at a Tops grocery store) against the wife, noticed the signature on the US credit card was in English but she had signed the receipt in Thai...he just had her sign in English just above the Thai signature....we were shocked because that was the first time any clerk had done a signature comparison on any of our credit or debit card usage. And neither of us have never, ever had a Thai store ask to see ID to confirm the credit/debit card was really ours....we could have just found the card 5 minutes ago laying in the floor and decided to go on a shopping spree....chances are very high the checkout clerk will not even glance at/compare the signature on the card and receipt. Yeap, a lost card in Thailand can quickly turn into a shopping spree for a crook.

[monty]

I have to agree with TallGuy.

The consumer protection regarding bankfraud are a waste of the paper they are written on.

There are documented cases where there is clearly fraud or negligence on the side of the bank (e.g. a Thai person doing a counter withdrawal with a bank book in the name of a foreigner), where the defrauded victim has to initiate a civil/criminal lawsuit against the bank.

We all know this can take ages and costs a fair bit of money!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Aand quite a few times they hand the card back immediately after they swipe the card and before you sign the receipt.

Only one time did a checkout clerk actually do a signature comparison (at a Tops grocery store) against the wife, noticed the signature on the US credit card was in English but she had signed the receipt in Thai...he just had her sign in English just above the Thai signature....we were shocked because that was the first time any clerk had done a signature comparison on any of our credit or debit card usage.

And neither of us have never, ever had a Thai store ask to see ID to confirm the credit/debit card was really ours....we could have just found the card 5 minutes ago laying in the floor and decided to go on a shopping spree....chances are very high the checkout clerk will not even glance at/compare the signature on the card and receipt. Yeap, a lost card in Thailand can quickly turn into a shopping spree for a crook.

Ditto on that for me, Pib...

I regularly use my U.S. debit cards for shopping here. But in all the years of living here, I can't recall ever being asked to show any ID in connection with a bank card POS transaction.

Likewise, in my experience, the store clerk generally either a] never looks at the signature on the back of the card or b] hands the card back to me as soon as it's been swiped but before I've signed the charge slip.

I can, however, remember one odd instance out of thousands... I think it also was at a Tops, I signed my charge slip with my first and last name, whereas my bank card included my middle initial. The store clerk noticed that I hadn't included my initial in my signature, and asked me to add it... Needless to say, I was shocked!!!

Re the broader issue here, I really wonder, how hard would it for the banks to require that merchants ask for photo ID verification in performing any POS transactions. I'm always carrying a photo ID, and Thais supposedly are required to carry their national ID card... So why not? (other than that merchants wouldn't like it).

Back in the U.S., in cases of swipe and sign (as opposed to PIN based purchases), asking to see a photo ID like a driver's license is a pretty common thing...and no one gets out of their tree about it, and it hasn't brought the retailing world to its knees. No big technology or infrastructure investment requiired... Just a bit of common sense.

Edited February 21, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JimGant]

It's pretty sad, and a clear indictment of the local system here, to hear the member's account posted above of having written "Ask for ID" as the signature on his bank card purchase transactions slips, and then the merchants here accepting that as his signature for purchases.

Actually, the signature checking feature of "swipe and sign" has gone by the wayside in the States as well...

Go to Safeway, or whatever, and swipe your credit card (or your debit card, but choosing "credit," thus putting it into the "swipe and sign" mode -- which, in Thailand, is where most (all?) are hardwired to default to).

The clerk is never handed your card (although sometimes the screen comes up: "Please show the clerk your card." Have never been asked to do this by any clerk....). Your signature is asked for in the rectangle box on the swipe machine. But, the clerk never looks at this -- and, of course, your actual signature is not on file to somehow compare to this electronic signature. I just sign my first initial -- and it processes, no problem -- apparently just having some motion in the retangular box being good enough. It's all become a charade, at least for less than big ticket items. In fact, I was surprised that Safeway didn't even ask for a signature for minor purchases ($25, or less?). Big ticket items, which I haven't done in awhile, maybe have more signature surveillance. I dunno.

Gas pumps in the States now ask for your zip code when swiping a credit card. Great security feature, particularly in a "clerk not present" situation. However, lawsuits have prevented this in "clerk present" situations, as it was determined that zip codes were not being asked for for security reasons -- but to determine your real address for future sales junk mail. Oh well.

Anyway, lacksadaisical signature checking by both Thailand and the US is interesting. But, as TallGuy points out, the US consumer is protected by law -- even in Thailand when using his US plastic. The holder of Thai plastic, however, is at risk -- except when that plastic is limited to the ATM mode.

[Pib]

I have to agree with TallGuy.

The consumer protection regarding bankfraud are a waste of the paper they are written on.

There are documented cases where there is clearly fraud or negligence on the side of the bank (e.g. a Thai person doing a counter withdrawal with a bank book in the name of a foreigner), where the defrauded victim has to initiate a civil/criminal lawsuit against the bank.

We all know this can take ages and costs a fair bit of money!

Unfortunately, the so called Consumer Protection Law(s) in Thailand regarding credit/debit cards should have been titled Banking Protection Law. With particularly non-existent and/or "no-teeth" consumer protection laws for credit/debit cards, it's pretty much whatever the card-issuing bank has as policy for its cards...and you can bet that policy is really written in the bank's favor vs the consumer. And when I say "the bank" I mean "any and all" Thai banks...from my review of various Thai bank websites and what I consider creditable posts/stories here on ThaiVisa all the banks seem to have similar policies when it comes to all their banking products, services, and fees. Don't get me wrong, Thai banks have a lot of good banking products/services, but credit/debit card Consumer Protection in case of fraud, lost cards, etc., is probably not one of them. I think they try hard to prevent fraud from getting though the front door so to speak, but once it gets in and hurts the consumer then the bank hunkers down to protect itself....and with no real consumer protection laws the bank has a really good defensive position....can hold off the screaming customer forever if necessary.

When I first arrived Thailand I wanted to get a Thai bank unsecured credit card (i.e., no securing deposit required) but just couldn't without a work permit (got plenty of retirement/pension money coming in until the day I die, but I guess without a job and work permit I wasn't considered trustworthy/a flight risk). Now, after learning about Thai credit cards lacking any real consumer protection, I'm so, so glad I never got a Thai credit card, either unsecured or secured. In fact, if all the major banks in Thailand sent a personal representative to my home offering me a unsecured Thai credit card I would politely send them packing--nope, I don't want to live more dangerously than I have too...have cards in my possession that can so easily be used by bad guys if the card gets lost/stolen. Just my carrying/occasional use of a Thai debit card is dangerous enough for me. I'll continue to predominately use my U.S. bank credit and debit cards due to the consumer protection offered and since my particular cards do not charge any foreign transaction fees. But I realize some folks do settle down in Thailand which don't have a home country credit card or do have one but maybe with healthy foreign transaction fees, and a Thai bank credit card can definite make some product/service buys easier.

Regarding store checkout clerks not checking ID/signatures, I think that is caused by the stores knowing the chance of a Thai bank credit/debit card charged being reversed is close to zero due to particularly non-existent consumer protection for credit/debit cards. And when people, like me, hand them a card from another country they maintain the "don't worry about the signature" attitude for various reasons...maybe a very low chance of a resident farang/tourist protesting a charge, etc.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Pib