How Corrupt Is Thailand, Your Perception.

[StreetCowboy]

"I've been fined quite a lot. But never for something i didn't do."

Let me offer an ad hoc definition of a fine.........

A "fine" is something you are ordered to pay by the judiciary as a penalty for a law you have transgressed. I have paid a speeding fine as a result of a speed trap - I sent the money order to the police of that region. The fine was documented and a photo of my vehicle was sent to me.

I assume that the money was then deposited in the right place - I haven't ay proof of that. I also assume that the speed camera was calibrated and that I was the driver - although in the picture it isn't clear......if I was in Europe, I would have easily checked out all of this, but in Thailand I don't, I tend to just accept it.

However on SEVERAL occasions I've been stopped by police who have claimed both correctly and incorrectly that I was committing some minor traffic offence, the result has been no paperwork whatsoever, but it is usually followed by the handing over of cash without a receipt. The transactions have pretty much invariably been carried out in a friendly way and I have been allowed to continue on my way often without any document or vehicle safety checks.

What are these officers doing? they are apparently "extorting" money from motorists regardless of whether or not they have committed an offence, no due process of law is carried out and I very much doubt that any of the money goes into the coffers it is supposed to.

THis practice is common, ubiquitous, endemic, pandemic and epidemic in Thailand and accepted by a ;large number of the populace as the norm.

It is NOT, it is a flagrant abuse of power and the law and a huge obstacle to Thailand ever becomimng a truly "free" or democratic country.

The fact is that this sort of behaviour is accepted by a vast number of the Thai population and exists in every aspect of business and government from the lowliest civil servant right to the highest echelons of Thai authority.

comparing this level corruption to that of other countries is pretty much becomes a furphy or red herring; it is Thailand that needs to address its own problem and the situation in other countries (better or worse) in no way justifies the situation in Thailand.

I've a good news for you and a bad news for a number of other people.

The good new is if you follow the Thai forums, more and more people get camera in their car and get corrupt policemen on video and post later on Pantip or Facebook.

The bad news is it's going to be more and more difficult to negotiate the fines ...

You don't negotiate fines, you negotiate bribes.

[JurgenG]

Also I've something to add. I recently read the news about the guy who killed a couple because he was speeding near the Lao border.

I drive fast, way too fast. I believe I'm a good driver but there is no way I can avoid an old lady on her motorcycle if she decides to cross my way on a straight line where I'm driving at 150 ++

To think you can pay 200 Bahts and it gives you the right to drive like an homicidal maniac is not right.

I've seen the improvement that speed control has made in other countries. I completely support a more honest police in Thailand.

[dominique355]

How corrupt is Thailand? The director of NIDA estimated that of every bath the Thai government spends, 40 satang go into various pockets.

The really alarming fact, however, is that according to several polls, most Thai agree with this practice, accept it and consider it as normal, as long as they also have some sort of advantage.

Thai people and Thai civil servants (MoP, member of the administration, Police, school principals etc) have absolutely no shame in admitting to be corrupt. See VP Chalerm who sees no harm in a police extorting "gifts" from businessmen. To accuse someone of being corrupt, even if it's true and can be proven, will land you in prison for slandering. There is no will and no determination to end it, or even to barndmark it as evil, no wonder, everybody, especially those in power profit from it.

[sunshine51]

On a 4.0 scale I'd give LOS an 8.8.

Mind you I give Indonesia a 9.5 and

Malaysia an 7.5.....Then there's the

P. I. in at 9.7....For what it's worth.

Edited March 1, 2013 by sunshine51

[JurgenG]

"I've been fined quite a lot. But never for something i didn't do."

Let me offer an ad hoc definition of a fine.........

A "fine" is something you are ordered to pay by the judiciary as a penalty for a law you have transgressed. I have paid a speeding fine as a result of a speed trap - I sent the money order to the police of that region. The fine was documented and a photo of my vehicle was sent to me.

I assume that the money was then deposited in the right place - I haven't ay proof of that. I also assume that the speed camera was calibrated and that I was the driver - although in the picture it isn't clear......if I was in Europe, I would have easily checked out all of this, but in Thailand I don't, I tend to just accept it.

However on SEVERAL occasions I've been stopped by police who have claimed both correctly and incorrectly that I was committing some minor traffic offence, the result has been no paperwork whatsoever, but it is usually followed by the handing over of cash without a receipt. The transactions have pretty much invariably been carried out in a friendly way and I have been allowed to continue on my way often without any document or vehicle safety checks.

What are these officers doing? they are apparently "extorting" money from motorists regardless of whether or not they have committed an offence, no due process of law is carried out and I very much doubt that any of the money goes into the coffers it is supposed to.

THis practice is common, ubiquitous, endemic, pandemic and epidemic in Thailand and accepted by a ;large number of the populace as the norm.

It is NOT, it is a flagrant abuse of power and the law and a huge obstacle to Thailand ever becomimng a truly "free" or democratic country.

The fact is that this sort of behaviour is accepted by a vast number of the Thai population and exists in every aspect of business and government from the lowliest civil servant right to the highest echelons of Thai authority.

comparing this level corruption to that of other countries is pretty much becomes a furphy or red herring; it is Thailand that needs to address its own problem and the situation in other countries (better or worse) in no way justifies the situation in Thailand.

I've a good news for you and a bad news for a number of other people.

The good new is if you follow the Thai forums, more and more people get camera in their car and get corrupt policemen on video and post later on Pantip or Facebook.

The bad news is it's going to be more and more difficult to negotiate the fines ...

You don't negotiate fines, you negotiate bribes.

Sorry, I've been in Asia for too long, I negotiate everything

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Jurgen,

The degree to which "corruption," which you never really define clearly, and which could have a very broad spectrum of meanings, affects a given expat living here long-time will, in my opinion, vary greatly with: why a given expat is here; what they are doing here; and what their lifestyle is. And, where they live, who they live with, what Thais they are involved with, both personally, and in business.

And, "corruption" must, I believe be discussed in discrete categories: the corruption problems that a major outside-Thailand company doing business here may face, is, I believe, very different from what individual expats, or individual expats running small independent businesses, may face. And that's a very different scenario than a retired couple, not working, coming here to enjoy low cost-of-living, for the end of their days, and generally behaving politely, and within the law.

And, I believe that, just like the random urban crime and violence that can occur in any large modern city in America or Europe (particularly if you somehow are in the "wrong" neighborhood at night): well ... serendipity's lightning can strike, and random factors can set in motion a frightening escalation of events.

If you are an expat coming here to work, for an established multi-national company, your work-permit, and visa, taken care of, getting paid a home-country-level salary: that's one "kettle of fish."

If you are a "refugee expat," or "self-exile," from your home country, and you are running a business here, either off-the-books, or halfway-off-the-books, with the assistance of legal-trickery, and paying under-the-table for official "favors:" another kettle of something: something much more dangerous.

If you are here with a Thai partner, with businesses, and/or property in their name: another reality.

And, finally, we come, to the lower circles of Dante's Inferno, whence cometh those who arrive here for the altered-states of Amazing Thailand, (booze, sex, drugs, all the preceding) so easily available ... as long as the farang's money is flowing ... those who dwell, somewhat subterraneanly ... people who come here to self-destruct: drunkards, whore-mongers, shady con-artists passing themselves off as the fantasy of who they always dreamed of being. People whose tombstone epitaph might as well say: "lovin's just another word for nothing left to lose."

Is it corruption, if the Thai sovereign government legally changes the terms and conditions of foreigners doing business here ? For a large multi-national doing business here: perhaps: "yes," given long-term contractual agreements signed with official entities of the Thai government (like BOI), supposed to last for many years, and given international law, and country-to-country trade agreements: but, for the individual foreigners doing business, my guess is: they can be "squeezed" at any time.

Most of the expats I have seen get in "deep <deleted>" here over the years, were arrogant people who, intoxicated by the many charms of Thailand, and the flattery of Thais who spotted them, quickly, as "marks:" well, just as Ulysses' men were bewitched, seduced, on Circe's Island, and started turning into swine: these characters were either "swinish" to begin with, or had "high bacon-potential," in their genes. They played the loopholes, they attracted attention to themselves by behavior, or by display of wealth; and they never learned to keep a smile-on, no matter what bureaucratic latrine they had stumbled head-first into.

So, in conclusion, it is my humble opinion that, in discussing the relative corruption of nations, we have to be quite specific about "who" and "what" is experiencing "corruption," and what, exactly, that means to the members of that nation's culture(s). We need to distinguish between macro-level on-and-off the books economic inputs, and outputs, and micro-level impact on individuals daily-lives: here in Amazing T., there are a vast number of individuals "way down" a social spectrum characterized by great inequality of wealth (which is increasing in magnitude here, just as it is in America).

The tuk-tuk-driver who pays the local motosai Police "collector," a hundred baht a day to park in front of a certain hotel, which is a prime spot to pick up possibly "high-profit" farang tourists. The group of my neighbors who finally got their small soi paved by ponying up a donation, passed along through the village headman, to the "right people."

A friend of mine drove from Chiang Mai to Bangkok several years ago, in a relatively expensive car; he was pulled over four times in one day by motosai cops, and paid the de rigueur 500 baht "fine," on the spot, for the "violation" to "disappear." He was convinced they pulled him over because he was farang, and his license plates were from out-of Bangkok. Perhaps he should have had his windows darkened with whatever they use here to render them more opaque ?

Are events like these the "corruption," you are talking about here ?

Or, are you talking, on a more macro-scale, about the corruption surrounding the government, and its macro-economic major projects, and large-scale construction projects (often involving one, or more, large foreign multi-national companies); or, the procurement of imported goods; or, the tax-system, in which (as in the U.S.), the very wealthy can use all the loopholes ? The rice-pledge scheme ? The flood-control measures promised and promised for central Thailand and Bangkok ?

A more interesting question to ask may be: to what extent some form of "corruption" directly intrudes into, and affects, the daily personal lives of what percentage of the population here, compared to ... China, Vietnam, and other Asian countries: "corruption" as they perceive it.

If it is traditional here, in Amazing T., as I've witnessed personally, to see even farangs paying-off the police to perform collection services of unpaid (but legitimate) debts from other farangs: what does that mean in terms of how you define "corruption" ?

So, my friend, which end of the telescope are we looking through: or, are we looking into a mirror of the kind used in rear-view mirrors in automobiles; the kind that usually has the warning: "things may be closer than they appear."

In my grandfather's boy-hood (late in the end of the 19th. century, and a little ways into the 20th.), he remembered voting-days very well, down in the southern part of Georgia, in the U.S.: a wagon would come by, with a drummer, and a trumpet player, making whoopee, and full of barrels of free whiskey, being generously doled out, and his father, my gg-father, would go off on horse-back, or on the wagon, if there was room, to vote the Democratic whomever into whatever office, and then he would return home slightly drunk, whence my stern gg-grandmother would, in the words of those days, "throw a hissy fit, " when he got back. My gg-father was a Civil War orphan, who fathered 17 children, of whom only eleven survived beyond age ten: my grandfather was the last of them to die, at age 102.

Was 19th. century America, particularly high-population urban cities, run by corrupt political machines: yep. Did that tradition of "city-hall boss," and patronage system, very often involving the police, extend long into the 20th. century: is it still alive until day ? Did war-mongers, like Hearst, collude with the military, to create a fake "act of war," the sinking of "The Maine," that provided an excuse for the American conquest of Cuba, as, decades later, the so-called "Gulf of Tonkin" incident was faked in order to escalate the Vietnam war, as, later, true assessments of Iraq's WMD's were ignored, and false assessments used, to justify an invasion of Iraq?

The international "disagreement," over a millennium old Khmer temple to Shiva at Preah Vihar, and its use as a shuttlecock in the internecine badminton matches within Thailand's internal politics ... nominally an issue between Thailand and Cambodia, being adjudicated by a World Court body ... is that an example of macro-macro-national level ... corruption ?

Are we talking about large-scale geo-political "corruption" here, in the always Machiavellian interactions between nation-states ?

Corruption: is it in the very bowels of our human nature, as Chaucer once suggested, when he wrote the striking lines in "The Pardoner'sTale," in the immortal "Canterbury Tales:"

"O wombe! O bely! O stynkyng cod Fulfilled of dong and of corrupcioun!."

Well, Chaucer was undoubtedly referring to the decay of the body by "corrupcioun:" is there a geo-body of a nation, that also decays, or is it just ceaseless change, and transmutation, to a new geo-body that proclaims itself a phoenix risen from the ashes of death, to mid-wife, and nurse, the childhood of a new-world order, where virtue is, once again, demanded to be perceived as ubiquitous, and where to deny the pure virtue of the truth's current version is: treason; and, warrants the death of the denier, as Giordano Bruno, found out, before he was burned by the Holy Inquisition, in 1600, for his views expressed in words like these:

"The beginning, middle, and end of the birth, growth, and perfection of whatever we behold is from contraries, by contraries, and to contraries; and whatever contrariety is, there is action and reaction, there is motion, diversity, multitude, and order, there are degrees, succession and vicissitude. "

~o:37;

[Eff1n2ret]

Thais imbibe corruption with their mother's milk, it has been ingrained for centuries, and is part of the culture along with the temples, elephants, food, and their weedy music. A while back I read a short book written by Peter Floris, who was a merchant with the English East India Company, and he set out on a trading voyage in 1611. There is a short passage relating to his arrival in Bangkok and Ayuttaya in the summer of 1612, and I was so struck by the resonances of dealing with some officialdom today, that I copied it out verbatim. The only person who treated them well was the King.

(Words in italics are mine) Peter Floris.docx

[transam]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Jurgen,

The degree to which "corruption," which you never really define clearly, and which could have a very broad spectrum of meanings, affects a given expat living here long-time will, in my opinion, vary greatly with: why a given expat is here; what they are doing here; and what their lifestyle is. And, where they live, who they live with, what Thais they are involved with, both personally, and in business.

And, "corruption" must, I believe be discussed in discrete categories: the corruption problems that a major outside-Thailand company doing business here may face, is, I believe, very different from what individual expats, or individual expats running small independent businesses, may face. And that's a very different scenario than a retired couple, not working, coming here to enjoy low cost-of-living, for the end of their days, and generally behaving politely, and within the law.

And, I believe that, just like the random urban crime and violence that can occur in any large modern city in America or Europe (particularly if you somehow are in the "wrong" neighborhood at night): well ... serendipity's lightning can strike, and random factors can set in motion a frightening escalation of events.

If you are an expat coming here to work, for an established multi-national company, your work-permit, and visa, taken care of, getting paid a home-country-level salary: that's one "kettle of fish."

If you are a "refugee expat," or "self-exile," from your home country, and you are running a business here, either off-the-books, or halfway-off-the-books, with the assistance of legal-trickery, and paying under-the-table for official "favors:" another kettle of something: something much more dangerous.

If you are here with a Thai partner, with businesses, and/or property in their name: another reality.

And, finally, we come, to the lower circles of Dante's Inferno, whence cometh those who arrive here for the altered-states of Amazing Thailand, (booze, sex, drugs, all the preceding) so easily available ... as long as the farang's money is flowing ... those who dwell, somewhat subterraneanly ... people who come here to self-destruct: drunkards, whore-mongers, shady con-artists passing themselves off as the fantasy of who they always dreamed of being. People whose tombstone epitaph might as well say: "lovin's just another word for nothing left to lose."

Is it corruption, if the Thai sovereign government legally changes the terms and conditions of foreigners doing business here ? For a large multi-national doing business here: perhaps: "yes," given long-term contractual agreements signed with official entities of the Thai government (like BOI), supposed to last for many years, and given international law, and country-to-country trade agreements: but, for the individual foreigners doing business, my guess is: they can be "squeezed" at any time.

Most of the expats I have seen get in "deep <deleted>" here over the years, were arrogant people who, intoxicated by the many charms of Thailand, and the flattery of Thais who spotted them, quickly, as "marks:" well, just as Ulysses' men were bewitched, seduced, on Circe's Island, and started turning into swine: these characters were either "swinish" to begin with, or had "high bacon-potential," in their genes. They played the loopholes, they attracted attention to themselves by behavior, or by display of wealth; and they never learned to keep a smile-on, no matter what bureaucratic latrine they had stumbled head-first into.

So, in conclusion, it is my humble opinion that, in discussing the relative corruption of nations, we have to be quite specific about "who" and "what" is experiencing "corruption," and what, exactly, that means to the members of that nation's culture(s). We need to distinguish between macro-level on-and-off the books economic inputs, and outputs, and micro-level impact on individuals daily-lives: here in Amazing T., there are a vast number of individuals "way down" a social spectrum characterized by great inequality of wealth (which is increasing in magnitude here, just as it is in America).

The tuk-tuk-driver who pays the local motosai Police "collector," a hundred baht a day to park in front of a certain hotel, which is a prime spot to pick up possibly "high-profit" farang tourists. The group of my neighbors who finally got their small soi paved by ponying up a donation, passed along through the village headman, to the "right people."

A friend of mine drove from Chiang Mai to Bangkok several years ago, in a relatively expensive car; he was pulled over four times in one day by motosai cops, and paid the de rigueur 500 baht "fine," on the spot, for the "violation" to "disappear." He was convinced they pulled him over because he was farang, and his license plates were from out-of Bangkok. Perhaps he should have had his windows darkened with whatever they use here to render them more opaque ?

Are events like these the "corruption," you are talking about here ?

Or, are you talking, on a more macro-scale, about the corruption surrounding the government, and its macro-economic major projects, and large-scale construction projects (often involving one, or more, large foreign multi-national companies); or, the procurement of imported goods; or, the tax-system, in which (as in the U.S.), the very wealthy can use all the loopholes ? The rice-pledge scheme ? The flood-control measures promised and promised for central Thailand and Bangkok ?

A more interesting question to ask may be: to what extent some form of "corruption" directly intrudes into, and affects, the daily personal lives of what percentage of the population here, compared to ... China, Vietnam, and other Asian countries: "corruption" as they perceive it.

If it is traditional here, in Amazing T., as I've witnessed personally, to see even farangs paying-off the police to perform collection services of unpaid (but legitimate) debts from other farangs: what does that mean in terms of how you define "corruption" ?

So, my friend, which end of the telescope are we looking through: or, are we looking into a mirror of the kind used in rear-view mirrors in automobiles; the kind that usually has the warning: "things may be closer than they appear."

In my grandfather's boy-hood (late in the end of the 19th. century, and a little ways into the 20th.), he remembered voting-days very well, down in the southern part of Georgia, in the U.S.: a wagon would come by, with a drummer, and a trumpet player, making whoopee, and full of barrels of free whiskey, being generously doled out, and his father, my gg-father, would go off on horse-back, or on the wagon, if there was room, to vote the Democratic whomever into whatever office, and then he would return home slightly drunk, whence my stern gg-grandmother would, in the words of those days, "throw a hissy fit, " when he got back. My gg-father was a Civil War orphan, who fathered 17 children, of whom only eleven survived beyond age ten: my grandfather was the last of them to die, at age 102.

Was 19th. century America, particularly high-population urban cities, run by corrupt political machines: yep. Did that tradition of "city-hall boss," and patronage system, very often involving the police, extend long into the 20th. century: is it still alive until day ? Did war-mongers, like Hearst, collude with the military, to create a fake "act of war," the sinking of "The Maine," that provided an excuse for the American conquest of Cuba, as, decades later, the so-called "Gulf of Tonkin" incident was faked in order to escalate the Vietnam war, as, later, true assessments of Iraq's WMD's were ignored, and false assessments used, to justify an invasion of Iraq?

The international "disagreement," over a millennium old Khmer temple to Shiva at Preah Vihar, and its use as a shuttlecock in the internecine badminton matches within Thailand's internal politics ... nominally an issue between Thailand and Cambodia, being adjudicated by a World Court body ... is that an example of macro-macro-national level ... corruption ?

Are we talking about large-scale geo-political "corruption" here, in the always Machiavellian interactions between nation-states ?

Corruption: is it in the very bowels of our human nature, as Chaucer once suggested, when he wrote the striking lines in "The Pardoner'sTale," in the immortal "Canterbury Tales:"

"O wombe! O bely! O stynkyng cod Fulfilled of dong and of corrupcioun!."

Well, Chaucer was undoubtedly referring to the decay of the body by "corrupcioun:" is there a geo-body of a nation, that also decays, or is it just ceaseless change, and transmutation, to a new geo-body that proclaims itself a phoenix risen from the ashes of death, to mid-wife, and nurse, the childhood of a new-world order, where virtue is, once again, demanded to be perceived as ubiquitous, and where to deny the pure virtue of the truth's current version is: treason; and, warrants the death of the denier, as Giordano Bruno, found out, before he was burned by the Holy Inquisition, in 1600, for his views expressed in words like these:

"The beginning, middle, and end of the birth, growth, and perfection of whatever we behold is from contraries, by contraries, and to contraries; and whatever contrariety is, there is action and reaction, there is motion, diversity, multitude, and order, there are degrees, succession and vicissitude. "

~o:37;

Where l come from parents do not have to pay corruption money for children to attend a particular school. They attend a school on THEIR merits, not pay towards someones new car.

[TommoPhysicist]

Where l come from parents do not have to pay corruption money for children to attend a particular school. They attend a school on THEIR merits, not pay towards someones new car.

Where I come from, parents have to buy/rent a house in the school catchment area for their children to attend that school. It's still about paying.

I thought we came from the same place?

[transam]

Where l come from parents do not have to pay corruption money for children to attend a particular school. They attend a school on THEIR merits, not pay towards someones new car.

Where I come from, parents have to buy/rent a house in the school catchment area for their children to attend that school. It's still about paying.

I thought we came from the same place?

Think you are twisting it a bit. Our lad wanted a school near bye and cash was required. In farang land a school near bye costs nothing, we are talking cash here in someones pocket.

[nodomino]

There has always been corruption in Thailand as with every other place where two or more humans are gathered. What is different in different places is the ebb and flow. My own homeland, America is a good subject to look at because it's entire experience has happened in historically recent times. It's first stage was administration by ruling elite which segued into competitive factions as industrialization created new wealth which fought for a piece of the governance pie and new money always needs to buy it's way in and so by the late 19th century, the USA was extremely corrupt and corruptions right hand man, incompetence, forced a backlash (usually signified by economic misallocated wealth) and a period of relative economic equality ensued until it to had run out of steam and by the 1970's, a counter backlash led by the once defeated forces have reclaimed their dominant position which has led to massive economic inequality of even greater degree than ever before. Of course, each place and time has it's own nuance but I see these parallels almost everywhere and certainly in Thailand

[cooked]

You guys may be missing the point. The problem in Thailand is the lack of rule by law, allowing corruption to flourish.

I'll be banned from Thaivisa if I mention my theory about why there is no rule of law here.

.

Please do speak candidly for the benefit of all of us. Honesty should be absolutely fine with TV.

My answer was deleted and quite right too. Think things through is all I can say.

[dundas]

Thailand corrupt?I don't know from my own personal experience, although I've heard more than a few stories from Thai friends. But these are second hand. I've only ever dealt with possible corruption here - for instance, I was pulled over when driving in a small town in the North and when I wound the window down and the policeman saw me, he said to his mate "Mai ao farang!" and waved me on. When riding a motorcycle I've been pulled over a number of times, I've removed my (full face) helmet and each time had the same conversation in English: "Where you going?" "Chiang Mai." "OK, bye bye." I'm pretty sure a Thai would have had a different conversation. Dual pricing can cut both ways sometimes ...

As for Australia being corrupt ... as other posters have pointed out, the Australian police aren't likely to pull people up looking for bribes. The kind of corruption I experienced working in the Australian public sector was that some departments do what they please and government will collude in that conduct because it's expedient. I'm thinking of the shameful blaming by one Australian government agency of a pilot for crash-landing a small ambulance jet in the ocean (when another government agency had already determined the airline involved lacked proper procedures for just the situation which resulted in the crash landing) and the way the Australian Tax Office treats whistleblowers (attempts to have them declared insane). I think that level of corruption is bad, but not as bad as what my Thai friends tell me happens here ...

[Beetlejuice]

My question to the OP:

He says; we own a house in Bangkok. Did he purchase this property strictly as imposed under Thai law?

How many ex-pats living here actually do abide by the laws regarding foreigners residing in the Kingdom? This includes, real estate and land purchasing, business ownerships, work permits, farms and so on.

Before giving any perceptions on how corrupt is Thailand, first it has to be considered how law abiding are those who are making these comments? If you`re not abiding by the laws, then you too are part of a corrupt system.

Obviously there is institutionalized corruption in Thailand at all levels. The questions are: how bad is it and how well established is corruption ingrained into Thai society?

[TomTao]

The corruption is obvious and in your face here, thats the way it is. Two choices here, support the corruption by greasing palms or not support it by not paying bribes, its up to the individual. I was confronted by corrupion and I followed the advice of others and slipped an envelope across the table at the Immigration office, but it never felt right to me, once I decided I wasn't going to feed the corruption beast any more and stopped slipping the envelope across and made it known I knew the rules the expectation of a little bribe went away, and I have had no problems since.

[phantomfiddler]

99%

>FUBAR / SNAFU

Interesting choice of words.

Mind to develop your thinking ?

FUBAR and SNAFU are military terms, to whit "<deleted> up beyond all recognition" and "Situation normal, all <deleted> up". Don,t you guys know anything ?

[brimacthai]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

As a victim of Aussie corruption I agree with you 100%. I fell much saver here in Thailand that I do in Australia!

Sure. And after all, that's all that matters, right? How you feel?

Who cares what it does to the country and it's people...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

What can we do about corruption? I have never been asked to pay an on the spot fine here for something I didn't do so I don't know how some of the others feel when it happens to them. But apparently by reading some of the posts, they don't feel too good about it... sometimes ones opinion is all about how they "feel" about something.

And yes, sometimes it's all about how I feel about things... just stating to me what is a fact... I feel safer here than in Oz, especially when it comes to the police!

[SteeleJoe]

The corruption is obvious and in your face here, thats the way it is. Two choices here, support the corruption by greasing palms or not support it by not paying bribes, its up to the individual. I was confronted by corrupion and I followed the advice of others and slipped an envelope across the table at the Immigration office, but it never felt right to me, once I decided I wasn't going to feed the corruption beast any more and stopped slipping the envelope across and made it known I knew the rules the expectation of a little bribe went away, and I have had no problems since.

And again it seems that some people think that 1) corruption only affects you if you want it to and 2) it doesn't damage society as a whole or 3) it doesn't matter if it does damage societysince it doesn't inconvenience them personally*

First two are fallacies. Third o e depends on one's outlook I suppose.

* except so much of what most of us find to be wrong with this country or in indents that outrage us couldn't be so or occur if it weren't for the systemic corruption.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

[comserve]

I think it depends who you talk to. I've driven here for 6 years and never even been stopped by police, yet I have friends who bike and they are constantly bemoaning being fined - getting a car is a simple solution.

My other perception is informed by my Thai wife's family - that's given me direct insight into how Thais receive a stipend to vote the right way (around 500b) - they live in Bangkok, not a village and this has happened in all the elections since 2007 to my knowledge. Their reasoning is that were they not to accept it, someone else would keep it. Based on that, I'd say 99%, give or take.

In the last local elections here in Buriram, my wife went along to a few political speaches & earner 500b each time, the village head man also rustled up a couple of gatherings where they earned 200b each time (me probably got the other 300b). All in all, with each candidate giving money she earned over 3,000b for the campaign.

It probably only made a difference to any candidate who did not participate. (he would have really been black listed!!

[SteeleJoe]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

As a victim of Aussie corruption I agree with you 100%. I fell much saver here in Thailand that I do in Australia!

Sure. And after all, that's all that matters, right? How you feel?

Who cares what it does to the country and it's people...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

What can we do about corruption? I have never been asked to pay an on the spot fine here for something I didn't do so I don't know how some of the others feel when it happens to them. But apparently by reading some of the posts, they don't feel too good about it... sometimes ones opinion is all about how they "feel" about something.

And yes, sometimes it's all about how I feel about things... just stating to me what is a fact... I feel safer here than in Oz, especially when it comes to the police!

You are one of the people I referred to in my first post: you simply don't very much at all about the topic at hand (and apparently haven't bothered to read some of the excellent posts by a couple posters that have explicated what it is and the effects it has); corruption isn't just down to paying an "on the spot fine here for something (you) didn't do"! Even if you did something wrong, paying a bribe ("on the spot fine" is such a wimpy and dishonest euphemism; if you are OK with paying bribes - I've done it myself - then call it what it is) to avoid punishment is STILL corruption; the sort of corruption that destroys any chance for Rule of Law or a just society.

On the ThaiVisa iPad app that I am using, directly below this topic is the thread about the law lecturer who assaulted a woman because she inconvenienced him. Watch the video and try to imagine how you'd feel if it was your wife or sister getting punched and kicked. Then consider that the guy felt he could do such a thing because there is no Rule of Law or accountability. Why? Corruption.

That, by the way is not even close to the only example or even the best one - it just happens to be right there...

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Edited March 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[wildorchid]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

So you think that Mr (Rabbit,) and his cronies are clean??? you jest,,, spoken by a lib supporter.

The Question was what are your thoughts on corruption here in LOS not Australia,

[brimacthai]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

As a victim of Aussie corruption I agree with you 100%. I fell much saver here in Thailand that I do in Australia!

Sure. And after all, that's all that matters, right? How you feel?

Who cares what it does to the country and it's people...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

What can we do about corruption? I have never been asked to pay an on the spot fine here for something I didn't do so I don't know how some of the others feel when it happens to them. But apparently by reading some of the posts, they don't feel too good about it... sometimes ones opinion is all about how they "feel" about something.

And yes, sometimes it's all about how I feel about things... just stating to me what is a fact... I feel safer here than in Oz, especially when it comes to the police!

You are one of the people I referred to in my first post: you simply don't very much at all about the topic at hand (and apparently haven't bothered to read some of the excellent posts by a couple posters that have explicated what it is and the effects it has); corruption isn't just down to paying an "on the spot fine here for something (you) didn't do"! Even if you did something wrong, paying a bribe ("on the spot fine" is such a wimpy and dishonest euphemism; if you are OK with paying bribes - I've done it myself - then call it what it is) to avoid punishment is STILL corruption; the sort of corruption that destroys any chance for Rule of Law or a just society.

On the ThaiVisa iPad app that I am using, directly below this topic is the thread about the law lecturer who assaulted a woman because she inconvenienced her. Watch the video and try to imagine how you'd feel if it was your wife or sister getting punched and kicked. Then consider that the guy felt he could do such a thing because there is no Rule of Law or accountability. Why? Corruption.

That, by the way is not even close to the only example or even the best one - it just happens to be right there...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

It's like I said, I have not experienced corruption here beyond what I posted before. I have heard lots about other people. And even blind Freddy can see that it is rife here at all levels... as it is in most (all?) other countries. Maybe what I'm feel safe about is here you can see it where in Oz it's well hidden... that is until you become a part of it.

Yes it does hurt the country and the people... and I don't support that at all... so how do we fix it?

[SteeleJoe]

How do we fix it? That's a much different -- and much, much more difficult -- question than what was presented in the OP.

I could try and work up a long and complicated off topic answer that might even have some real merit, but I think I'll opt for the short answer:

F*^#ed if I know.

[transam]

How do we fix it? That's a much different -- and much, much more difficult -- question than what was presented in the OP.

I could try and work up a long and complicated off topic answer that might even have some real merit, but I think I'll opt for the short answer:

F*^#ed if I know.

You cannot, Why, top to bottom, to many fingers.

[TommoPhysicist]

What can we do about corruption? I have never been asked to pay an on the spot fine here for something I didn't do so I don't know how some of the others feel when it happens to them. But apparently by reading some of the posts, they don't feel too good about it... sometimes ones opinion is all about how they "feel" about something.

I have never paid a fine either, I give them my Thai D/L, they give me an official ticket.

I pass the ticket on to my BIL (police), he gets me back my D/L, no money involved.

......... oh bother, I'm corrupt too............

[khunken]

I think Thailand is very corrupt on a number of levels. Take the minor level first.

I've paid a bribe to the police for minor traffic violations - three times, two of which were real. Apart from that I keep as far a distance as possible between me & the BIB.

The medium level is with the police which is the most corrupt institution in the country - the instances of their treatment of rape victims, farangs being singled out for extortion, violence against activists, just turning a blind eye when a bribe is paid.

The high level is with politicians, bureaucrats & men in uniform in general. It is all pervasive.

New laws are passed when their replacement has never been really enforced. Thailand is not a lawless country but it is a law-ignored country.

[TommoPhysicist]

The medium level is with the police which is the most corrupt institution in the country - the instances of their treatment of rape victims, farangs being singled out for extortion, violence against activists, just turning a blind eye when a bribe is paid.

Gotta say, never experienced white foreigners being singled out by the police. More likely to let you off because they can't speak English. The Thais seem to suffer much more from police scams.

Edited March 1, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[Wiggy]

So many people miss the point that it's MY and YOUR money that goes into THEIR pockets. In theory, I pay taxes to help develop the country, but it ends up funding another private car for someone. Why does that not bother people?

[transam]

So many people miss the point that it's MY and YOUR money that goes into THEIR pockets. In theory, I pay taxes to help develop the country, but it ends up funding another private car for someone. Why does that not bother people?

Culture.

[khunken]

The medium level is with the police which is the most corrupt institution in the country - the instances of their treatment of rape victims, farangs being singled out for extortion, violence against activists, just turning a blind eye when a bribe is paid.

Gotta say, never experienced white foreigners being singled out by the police. More likely to let you off because they can't speak English. The Thais seem to suffer much more from police scams.

I've not had personal experience of Farangs being singled out either & agree that Thais suffer a lot more.

But I base my comment on cases reported here on TV, such as the Brit & Singaporean being scammed over furniture.