How Corrupt Is Thailand, Your Perception.

[SteeleJoe]

From BBC News website Map: Which country pays the most bribes?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23231318

It should be remembered that - contrary to what so many posters implicitly or explicitly contend - "corruption" encompasses FAR more than the occasional bribery paid in the course of the average person's life.

[pistachios]

good to hear that i am amusing you. it means i don't have to be grateful for your amusing me.

by the way... theft, embezzlement and fraud is not corruption. there... there... there's really no need to beat up your wife! you were thinking of it... weren't you?

and don't even think about kicking your dog! you hear me?

[wilcopops]

From BBC News website Map: Which country pays the most bribes?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23231318

From BBC News website Map: Which country pays the most bribes?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23231318

Nice page - of course if you ask someone in Thailand if they have paid a bribe or similar they are likely to say "NO" as many don't even realise that that is what they are doing.

As for being "the norm" therefore it will always be there? - TOSH!

It cannot last, it is destined to either be reduced or it will implode.

Looked at globally the kind of endemic corruption - and it's not static - will bring down a country either politically or economically or both. Uneven distribution of wealth and power will inevitably lead to unrest - The result as the corruption is endemic means there are no institutions infrastructure or people in power with integrity and the country could reduce to bloody civil war and chaos.

Edited July 11, 2013 by wilcopops

[NoshowJones]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

One of the best posts I have read in this forum. But I cannot comment on Australian politics, and also cannot imagine any Government or MPs being worse than those in the UK where fleecing the public and putting themseves first is concerned.

[SteeleJoe]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

One of the best posts I have read in this forum. But I cannot comment on Australian politics, and also cannot imagine any Government or MPs being worse than those in the UK where fleecing the public and putting themseves first is concerned.

A post that egregiously diminishes the devastating impact of corruption in this country and absurdly reduces it - I can't share your opinion of it as one of the best ever. Not to mention essentially the same thing has been said a few times on the thread.

This part is particularly ridiculous and uninformed (either that or deliberately dishonest as it makes for a better chance to both make excuses for Thailand and bash Australian politics):

"The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians."

Notice only the people "involved in" corruption here are mentioned but for Australia those that are "running it" are the ones he singles out. And even without getting into the old fallacious red herring about "poorly paid police officers, one can't help but notice that no mention is made of the fact that virtually EVERYONE in government service - up to and ESPECIALLY those politicians (as well as some not so poorly paid senior police) at the top tier of it - is corrupt and perpetuates corruption. Who does he think is "running the corruption" here?

By the way, compared to the pay one would get as a CEO with even anywhere remotely near the sort of workload and responsibility as a POTUS has to bear, a US President's pay is quite low. I know nothing about Australian politicians or politics but could it be that the PM is, unlike a POTUS, paid something more commensurate with her job?

[NoshowJones]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

One of the best posts I have read in this forum. But I cannot comment on Australian politics, and also cannot imagine any Government or MPs being worse than those in the UK where fleecing the public and putting themseves first is concerned.

A post that egregiously diminishes the devastating impact of corruption in this country and absurdly reduces it - I can't share your opinion of it as one of the best ever. Not to mention essentially the same thing has been said a few times on the thread.

This part is particularly ridiculous and uninformed (either that or deliberately dishonest as it makes for a better chance to both make excuses for Thailand and bash Australian politics):

"The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians."

Notice only the people "involved in" corruption here are mentioned but for Australia those that are "running it" are the ones he singles out. And even without getting into the old fallacious red herring about "poorly paid police officers, one can't help but notice that no mention is made of the fact that virtually EVERYONE in government service - up to and ESPECIALLY those politicians (as well as some not so poorly paid senior police) at the top tier of it - is corrupt and perpetuates corruption. Who does he think is "running the corruption" here?

By the way, compared to the pay one would get as a CEO with even anywhere remotely near the sort of workload and responsibility as a POTUS has to bear, a US President's pay is quite low. I know nothing about Australian politicians or politics but could it be that the PM is, unlike a POTUS, paid something more commensurate with her job?

You do make some good points SteeleJoe, but in the main, I was very impressed with the post I answered.

[SteeleJoe]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

One of the best posts I have read in this forum. But I cannot comment on Australian politics, and also cannot imagine any Government or MPs being worse than those in the UK where fleecing the public and putting themseves first is concerned.

A post that egregiously diminishes the devastating impact of corruption in this country and absurdly reduces it - I can't share your opinion of it as one of the best ever. Not to mention essentially the same thing has been said a few times on the thread.

This part is particularly ridiculous and uninformed (either that or deliberately dishonest as it makes for a better chance to both make excuses for Thailand and bash Australian politics):

"The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians."

Notice only the people "involved in" corruption here are mentioned but for Australia those that are "running it" are the ones he singles out. And even without getting into the old fallacious red herring about "poorly paid police officers, one can't help but notice that no mention is made of the fact that virtually EVERYONE in government service - up to and ESPECIALLY those politicians (as well as some not so poorly paid senior police) at the top tier of it - is corrupt and perpetuates corruption. Who does he think is "running the corruption" here?

By the way, compared to the pay one would get as a CEO with even anywhere remotely near the sort of workload and responsibility as a POTUS has to bear, a US President's pay is quite low. I know nothing about Australian politicians or politics but could it be that the PM is, unlike a POTUS, paid something more commensurate with her job?

You do make some good points SteeleJoe, but in the main, I was very impressed with the post I answered.

Fair enough. Different strokes...

[midasthailand]

by the way... theft, embezzlement and fraud is not corruption.[\quote]

I wasn't going to get back into this thread despite so much I would be tempted to comment on (fallacies and distortions and illogical reasoning) but the above is just too much.

Rarely does one see something so dumb said by an otherwise intelligent person.

Seems to me that the wording above your avatar is particularly appropriate to the posts you make. This is a forum, people are not always going to agree with what others post! I would welcome any criticism from you regarding my posts, if you could back up your rebuttal of my opinions with some indication of what parts of my post regarding Australia compared to Thailand, were inaccurate?

Naam, really enjoying your battle of wits but remember the old adage: Before you enter a battle of wits, make sure your opponent is armed!

[wilcopops]

one notable difference between corruption in Australia and Thailand is that in Australia if you are caught you are punished and loose your job.

[wilcopops]

I have to say that I find corruption in Australia quite laughable in that the offenders usually quite naive in what they think they can get away with....eg. prostitutes on Government credit cards.........

There is corruption in all countries to some extent and in the West it is treated as a leach on society, but in Thailand we now have figures to indicate that 65% of the population is tolerant so long as it benefits them, which is a terrible indictment of Thai society as a whole.

[transam]

I have to say that I find corruption in Australia quite laughable in that the offenders usually quite naive in what they think they can get away with....eg. prostitutes on Government credit cards.........

There is corruption in all countries to some extent and in the West it is treated as a leach on society, but in Thailand we now have figures to indicate that 65% of the population is tolerant so long as it benefits them, which is a terrible indictment of Thai society as a whole.

It is worth remembering that here if someone gets dosh for doing nothing, by whatever means, it is a big from all. Noooooooooooooo question.

[jpinx]

I have to say that I find corruption in Australia quite laughable in that the offenders usually quite naive in what they think they can get away with....eg. prostitutes on Government credit cards.........

There is corruption in all countries to some extent and in the West it is treated as a leach on society, but in Thailand we now have figures to indicate that 65% of the population is tolerant so long as it benefits them, which is a terrible indictment of Thai society as a whole.

Corruption is another one of those traits which is just "different" between cultures. Neither is right or wrong except in the eye of the observer. You just can *not* impose western culture on asian/african/arab societies.

[transam]

I have to say that I find corruption in Australia quite laughable in that the offenders usually quite naive in what they think they can get away with....eg. prostitutes on Government credit cards.........

There is corruption in all countries to some extent and in the West it is treated as a leach on society, but in Thailand we now have figures to indicate that 65% of the population is tolerant so long as it benefits them, which is a terrible indictment of Thai society as a whole.

Corruption is another one of those traits which is just "different" between cultures. Neither is right or wrong except in the eye of the observer. You just can *not* impose western culture on asian/african/arab societies.

But in farang land folk go to jail IF it is proven in court, here

[thaibeachlovers]

In the backwater where I live it has caused the infrastructure to be appaling, but if they vote for the person who pays the most, they only have themselves to blame.

[misterphil]

Been stung for 40,000 baht traffic offence that I never committed. They BiB say I showed them a fake/counterfeit international driving licence. Load of BS, it was a genuine one, just because I showed them the plastic card part and not the grey booklet. Don't trust any of them and never will.

[benalibina]

Positive side of corruption is that on pety corruption the officials know it is not good, paperwork takes too much time. So when 1 can speak thai and make them smile 1 can get away with it. Its all a game ! Remain forcefull but calm and polite.

[cherochero]

The level of corruption in thailand is quite serious.

[jpinx]

I have to say that I find corruption in Australia quite laughable in that the offenders usually quite naive in what they think they can get away with....eg. prostitutes on Government credit cards.........

There is corruption in all countries to some extent and in the West it is treated as a leach on society, but in Thailand we now have figures to indicate that 65% of the population is tolerant so long as it benefits them, which is a terrible indictment of Thai society as a whole.

Corruption is another one of those traits which is just "different" between cultures. Neither is right or wrong except in the eye of the observer. You just can *not* impose western culture on asian/african/arab societies.

But in farang land folk go to jail IF it is proven in court, here

Chances of proving it in court are slim, as has been seen many times, so farangland is not much better than Thailand in reality -- it's just that the style of corruption is different

[wilcopops]

the effects of corruption are quite identifiable and the effect they have on a country's society, democracy economy and infrastructure can be quite devastating. just compare the 2 countries - Oz and Thailand, both good economies, which has the stable government the roads the elections the judicial system, the healthcare and social security, social mobility through merit etc etc..or just compare wealth per capita....Thailand is considerably older than Australia - so what went wrong?..or compare with Japan and Korea............THailand has the population and resources to compete with any country on Earth, but it is run by a second-rate ruling class that gets and maintains its power and position through corruption, graft and nepotism....the result a country that some would describe as "third world" - IMO a complete misnomer

Edited July 27, 2013 by wilcopops

[benalibina]

Human nature is the same everywhere in the world. 1st 1self than the rest. Thailand is a top down society while in the west it is more bottom up. And getting to that more and more. Financial crisis consequense ?? Accountability by people to the abusers of power and position, governmental or private sector, is getting better in the west. Press ? Education ? Christian based society ? Western people in general see people as being equal, rich or poor. At least they know everybody must be treated same. As thailand lacks proper education therefore critical thinking and expression everybody looks up. What he/she does to enrich themselve, i can do as well. Top down ! This mentality is very hard to change and in our lifetimes we will not experience to see it. The big question is; what type of society is better to live in ? In the west we are in general better to hide corruption whilst in thailand it is easy visible. Day to day life and press, english language newspapers ! Only ?

[rayongchelsea]

I have to say that I find corruption in Australia quite laughable in that the offenders usually quite naive in what they think they can get away with....eg. prostitutes on Government credit cards.........

There is corruption in all countries to some extent and in the West it is treated as a leach on society, but in Thailand we now have figures to indicate that 65% of the population is tolerant so long as it benefits them, which is a terrible indictment of Thai society as a whole.

Corruption is another one of those traits which is just "different" between cultures. Neither is right or wrong except in the eye of the observer. You just can *not* impose western culture on asian/african/arab societies.

But in farang land folk go to jail IF it is proven in court, here

Chances of proving it in court are slim, as has been seen many times, so farangland is not much better than Thailand in reality -- it's just that the style of corruption is different

You must be kidding.

The court system here favors the very rich, they dismiss its accountability even where there is clear evidence of guilt..in farang land there is more transparency even if the burden of proof is onerous. Here in Thailand influence is everything..

Corruption is endemic and not really understood by foreigners until you confront it in court, have been bullied,racial slurs thrown,articles withdrawn from newspapers, defamation law threatened, intimidated..farang land is so much better, it's is just tolerated on a day to day level but when you decide to challenge it then reality hits you in the face..my reality is different to yours..both are valid, it's based on experience..I am still a little bit taken aback by the degree of it..but optimistic..

[Sunderland]

Just a thought: if you're here retired or married without kids perhaps the corruption can be seen as some "smoothening oil". But if you have kids here: do you really want them to grow up in this environment? Personally I've had enough and I'm preparing to leave for my old country in northern Europe. Got a 4 and 9 year old.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I think you are making a wise move. I may have kids in the next couple of years with my Thai wife, and neither of us are impressed with the apathetic feeling that many locals have towards the greasy wheels of corruption.

Hope all works out well for you and your family when you return home.

[NeverSure]

From BBC News website Map: Which country pays the most bribes?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23231318

I find this hard to believe. It shows Thailand at "only" 18% and the US at 7%. I am constantly hearing of people paying bribes in Thailand, but I've never heard of anyone paying one in the US. In fact if I offered a bribe I'd expect to go to jail.

The survey was of people paying bribes to officials. I don't buy it.

In the US the corruption is in the Capital, where the big politicians are "lobbied" by powerful groups, and given campaign contributions in return for favors. I think it happens at the state level too. However if someone is caught red-handed, they are prosecuted and punished.

Once again I don't believe that only 18% of Thais have paid a bribe to an official, and I don't believe that 7% of Americans have.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Spend a few hours at an American DMV office and you'd wish they accepted facilitation payments.

[Time Traveller]

Spend a few hours at an American DMV office and you'd wish they accepted facilitation payments.

I'm sure you meant to write Thai DMV.

[NewlyMintedThai]

No, I meant American DMV's.