How Corrupt Is Thailand, Your Perception.

[IMA_FARANG]

I will say, having known a number of Thais, that at street level much of the corruption is really small scale, and regarded as a "cost" of doing business in Thailand.

Not that I'm condoning it.

Take a stall holder in a market selling some cheap goods.

You don't get a "license" (legal or not) to have that stall without paying someone off.

Try to fight the system as an average Thai, and some "accident" is probably going to happen to you and/or your business quite soon .

Just ask a Thai "market stall" holder, if you can get one to talk to you honestly, and they will tell you the facts.

They know, and don't like it, but it is a part of the "cost' of setting up their business.

[slapout]

The title of this thread asks two questions, our preception of corruption is what we spend or see being spent on corruption, graft or whatever. The majority of the population of Thailand or any country have no real concept of the size of the corruption nor how it has affected them as they are not directly involved. This would probably apply to TV members also.

Those paying the brides/kick backs, etc build this expense into their expense budget, which the population knows virtually nothing about. Those on the receiving side drop a few crumbs, but spend most of their effort ensuring those proceeds remain 'theirs'. The group paying would not be privy to the total amount the corrupt receive, except from their own direct payments. Those on the receiving end, have never been know for their honesty anyway, so any info from them is suspect.

This looks like an exercise in trying to answer a question, with little or no real information at our desposal. Those that do have the info would probably plead the 5th amenment.

[jpeg]

You guys may be missing the point. The problem in Thailand is the lack of rule by law, allowing corruption to flourish.

I'll be banned from Thaivisa if I mention my theory about why there is no rule of law here.

Patience old boy. The clock is ticking. Change will come.

Given the alternative, I very much doubt it.

[dao16]

I think it depends who you talk to. I've driven here for 6 years and never even been stopped by police, yet I have friends who bike and they are constantly bemoaning being fined - getting a car is a simple solution.

My other perception is informed by my Thai wife's family - that's given me direct insight into how Thais receive a stipend to vote the right way (around 500b) - they live in Bangkok, not a village and this has happened in all the elections since 2007 to my knowledge. Their reasoning is that were they not to accept it, someone else would keep it. Based on that, I'd say 99%, give or take.

Hahaha.....the thing is, most of the families where I am at take all of the "stipends" and go ahead and vote how they want to. Take the one everyone supports in broad daylight and later tell the opposition guy you would take it, but you don't want the neighbors to see.....he will go inside with you and pay....double the money, double the fun!!!!

Thailand....never a dull moment.

[PaullyW]

When I flew into the Thai airport yesterday, after clearing immigration, the first 5 people I encountered were scammers, so it set the tone.

Makes me think all Thais are scammers......

Welcome to Thailand.

And, you'd not be wrong for thinking so.

[Heng]

Actually no. I know one family to speak to and they collect, sort and sell everything and make a lot more than a basic government worker on 300Baht/day The daughter recently bought a new scooter and the father has a new pickup

Meet them by day and they are really filthy from the rubbish, but they scrub up well !!

Of course, making a bit more than 300 Baht a day is doable. Your original comparison was to an average UK pensioner.... which I would have assumed would be a bit more than US$300 a month.

:-)

[wilcopops]

DiNiro - I think you miss the significance or your encounter .

Scamming....mmmm is that really corruption or just criminal activity?........the significance to me is that these people are allowed to operate in the airport on a daily basis......why? Because those that run the airport and their minions are corrupt...they are the ones taking a slice of whatever the scammer earns.

Edited July 6, 2013 by wilcopops

[DiNiro]

DiNiro - I think you miss the significance or your encounter .

Scamming....mmmm is that really corruption or just criminal activity?........the significance to me is that these people are allowed to operate in the airport on a daily basis......why? Because those that run the airport and their minions are corrupt...they are the ones taking a slice of whatever the scammer earns.

I was not pleased with the treatment at the airport and phoned the AOT.

The lady I spoke with said "same thing happens in your country."

Maybe if I was from Nigeria....

[wilcopops]

DiNiro - I think you miss the significance or your encounter .

Scamming....mmmm is that really corruption or just criminal activity?........the significance to me is that these people are allowed to operate in the airport on a daily basis......why? Because those that run the airport and their minions are corrupt...they are the ones taking a slice of whatever the scammer earns.

I was not pleased with the treatment at the airport and phoned the AOT.

The lady I spoke with said "same thing happens in your country."

Maybe if I was from Nigeria....

DiNiro - I think you miss the significance or your encounter .

Scamming....mmmm is that really corruption or just criminal activity?........the significance to me is that these people are allowed to operate in the airport on a daily basis......why? Because those that run the airport and their minions are corrupt...they are the ones taking a slice of whatever the scammer earns.

I was not pleased with the treatment at the airport and phoned the AOT.

The lady I spoke with said "same thing happens in your country."

Maybe if I was from Nigeria....

The topic is corruption............but you have also hit on another major problem in Thailand, that of customer service.....anyone who thinks that saying stuff like "same thing happens in your country." really would be sacked in any other country.......

[Somtamnication]

Not any more than other countries. It is just that here it is in the open and it is an accepted norm.

[wilcopops]

Not any more than other countries. It is just that here it is in the open and it is an accepted norm.

Not any more than other countries. It is just that here it is in the open and it is an accepted norm.

Corruption or CS?

Both here are incredibly widespread.

When it comes to graft, nepotism and corruption I am strongly of the opinion that even foreigners who have lived here for some time grossly underestimate the extent of corruption in Thailand. It is way beyond most people's wildest dreams/nightmares and so all pervasive that it sometimes simply goes unnoticed as casual observers just sit and watch without realising what is actually going on

[aussieexpat1068]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

Agreed. At least here you know it exists be it incorrect or not. Back home in Australia we know it exists but the corruption is extended by openly telling you it doesn't.

[aussieexpat1068]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

What a bunch of drivel. A former Prime Minister is unable to return to Thailand because of pretty serious allegations of corruption. Corruption exists at all levels of Thai society. The police are just the little foot soldiers.

Gillard lives in a country with a very strong justice system. If she has ever done anything wrong, it would have been prosecuted long ago. Her home state, Victoria, where the most pathetic allegations are sourced, is governed by the Liberal Party, the sworn enemy of both the ALP and the union movement. Do you really think that the Victorian Police, and the courts system, the Attorney General, and so on, are all standing around, with their hands in the pockets, while Gillard goes free? Not to mention that the Liberal Party was in power federally from 1996 until 2007, for most of those years Gillard was a Labor Party front-bencher.

If you do, I have a nice Harbour Bridge you might like to buy, slightly used, but very beautiful and with nice views.

Mate I don't care too much for politics but love your sales pitch on the Harbour Bridge. Any chance you could include the Opera House in the deal?

[Chicog]

A lot of the Gulf countries were on the list of the most corrupt. I think they paid to be removed.

[patongphil]

If you have never lived in Africa then you have no idea what corruption really is.

[NewlyMintedThai]

How were these "scammers" trying to "scam" you, deniro? I come through the airport dozens of times a year, and have been doing so for 30-odd years, but apart from the occasional "taxi? Pattaya?", no one has ever tried to "scam" me.

[CrypticBob]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

What a bunch of drivel. A former Prime Minister is unable to return to Thailand because of pretty serious allegations of corruption. Corruption exists at all levels of Thai society. The police are just the little foot soldiers.

Gillard lives in a country with a very strong justice system. If she has ever done anything wrong, it would have been prosecuted long ago. Her home state, Victoria, where the most pathetic allegations are sourced, is governed by the Liberal Party, the sworn enemy of both the ALP and the union movement. Do you really think that the Victorian Police, and the courts system, the Attorney General, and so on, are all standing around, with their hands in the pockets, while Gillard goes free? Not to mention that the Liberal Party was in power federally from 1996 until 2007, for most of those years Gillard was a Labor Party front-bencher.

If you do, I have a nice Harbour Bridge you might like to buy, slightly used, but very beautiful and with nice views.

Mate I don't care too much for politics but love your sales pitch on the Harbour Bridge. Any chance you could include the Opera House in the deal?

The bridge is knock-off from Newcastle. You;d be mad to take it

[BillyBobThai]

The laws for corruption should include these as the penalities for corruption for politicians, as they are public servents for the good of the populace. These people could not be pardoned or parolled.

For a lesser offence, this would probably be for about 25% of those convicted.

For those who commited far worse offences, maybe 70%, hard labor.

For the worst acts of corruption, maybe the top 5%.

[wilcopops]

If you have never lived in Africa then you have no idea what corruption really is.

This is a completely spurious argument. The poster thinks that by stating his personal experience of another continent he is somehow contributing to the discussion..... I'd like to hear how.

Edited July 7, 2013 by wilcopops

[WilliamCave]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

Sounds like you just described Canada , I call it legalized corruption in Canada,

Good on you for realizing it goes on in our countries just as it does here. And from what i see in other countries like the US , England , and Europe it is no different.

[wilcopops]

In a survey in the papers today 65% of people asked said they thought corruption was OK so long as they personally benefited from it.

Now that is the route of the problem - a population that can't see any other way.

[wilcopops]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

Sounds like you just described Canada , I call it legalized corruption in Canada,

Good on you for realizing it goes on in our countries just as it does here. And from what i see in other countries like the US , England , and Europe it is no different.

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

Sounds like you just described Canada , I call it legalized corruption in Canada,

Good on you for realizing it goes on in our countries just as it does here. And from what i see in other countries like the US , England , and Europe it is no different.

goes on in our countries just as it does here. '

Nothing could be further from the truth asnd it shows yet again that people simply have no idea of the crushing burden corruption imposes on Thai society, economy and liberties

[NewlyMintedThai]

In a survey in the papers today 65% of people asked said they thought corruption was OK so long as they personally benefited from it.

Now that is the route of the problem - a population that can't see any other way.

If it doesn't bother them, why should it bother you?

[rene123]

Of course Thailand is corrupt. What country isn't? That is not news. It is just that corruption is more visible in Thailand. Indirectly, corruption affects everyone, and it directly affects some of us if we break the laws of the country. Some officials can be bribed and that might affect anyone who wants to invest in Thailand. But, if you try to follow the laws and don't invest in anything that you can't afford to lose then life is pretty good. Thai Police commonly accept bribes, but that is mostly to supplement low wages. In western countries we can't bribe police, but the fines for breaking laws are 10 times as high. I just accept Thailand for what it is and enjoy the difference.

[EDL]

3 Words

TO THE CORE

[patongphil]

If you have never lived in Africa then you have no idea what corruption really is.

This is a completely spurious argument. The poster thinks that by stating his personal experience of another continent he is somehow contributing to the discussion..... I'd like to hear how.

What arguement?

[stiggy]

To it's very core.

[Naam]

If you have never lived in Africa then you have no idea what corruption really is.

This is a completely spurious argument. The poster thinks that by stating his personal experience of another continent he is somehow contributing to the discussion..... I'd like to hear how.

the argument is not spurious. "patongphil" is merely stating a fact! and based on my experience in Africa i can only second his statement and add that personally i would appreciate a wider, higher and deeper level of corruption in Thailand.

reason: it makes life much easier

now tell me that i did not contribute to the discussion. i can hardly wait to hear your "judgment"

[Heng]

Here: It's just easily accessible.

Back home (US in this case): Corruption is an elite game that I don't have access to but would be more than happy to participate in provided the chance.

Here: They also don't sugar coat it. It's served raw, medium rare, and well done at all levels of society.

Back home: We sugar coat it, spin it, call it other names like lobbying, and by the time we're fed it.... we think it's in our best interests.

[slapout]

Heng is spot on with " its easily assesiable"

Every country has gone thru a degree of corruption, recongized it and most did something to fight it. The US used harsh penalities (both monetary, other benifets and prison time) A extensive check and balance system, multi layers of referees, (banks, IRS, independent audit,etc) camera/electronic survalence (big brother is watching/listening), etc, wrote laws meant to stop not enhance corruption, wrote a monetary inducement programs which invited whistle blowing, snitching out others or whatever term you want, and that is just within the federal, the states have their systems to add to this. Then throw in a lot of cooperation with other countries, either thru agreement or pressure applied and in many cases, "corruption really does not pay"

Thailands approach to corruption is to keep polishing the apple so it shines like a diamond in a goats arse, and its just as full of sh.t inside.