Proof Of Medical Insurance Proposed For 1 Year Visa

[ThaiBob]

A simple solution would be:

1. For tourists. A small increase in the airport tax that is added to the ticket cost. 100 baht for example which reimburses hospitals for any unpaid bills. This is not buying insurance for tourists, in fact they don't know it exists.

2. For uninsured retirees. Double the 65000/800000k requirement with the increase going to a special medical account which can only be accessed by claims filed against the account by hospitals. Nobody is grandfathered. Letting a medical lien placed against a chanote to satisfy this requirement should be considered.

You've just suggested kicking out over half the retirees here. Congratulations! (I call that suggestion SMUGNESS on steroids.)

I seriously don't think anything Thai immigration is going to come up with about this, if anything, is going to be nearly as BAT SHEIT CRAZY as some of the anti-foreigner suggestions here from some foreigners themselves.

Please read the links and you will note as reported, "As regards older expats on one year visas, the most likely outcome is that applications will need to be accompanied by valid medical insurance or proof of a greater income or cash deposits than is currently required (800,000 baht for a retiree visa and 400,000 for a farang with a Thai spouse)." So really you are calling the Thais "smug". The numbers I used was simply based on the fact the requirement amounts were doubled from the last increase many years ago. Through in inflation and higher medical costs and the what some people have posted about 1 million baht for emergency cardiac care then the increase in my post in probably in the ball park but I hope it is much less of course.

Grandfathering people simply passes the buck. I think being able to pledge as asset such as a condo in lieu of an increase or insurance makes sense and easy to do. A medical lien is placed on the chanote and must be cleared if the condo is sold.

Ok, over to you, what is your suggestion? Please don't say some kind of government medical insurance plan for retirees because it ain't goin' to happen. There are simply too many political, financial and philosophical road blocks.

[ThaiBob]

A simple solution would be:

1. For tourists. A small increase in the airport tax that is added to the ticket cost. 100 baht for example which reimburses hospitals for any unpaid bills. This is not buying insurance for tourists, in fact they don't know it exists.

2. For uninsured retirees. Double the 65000/800000k requirement with the increase going to a special medical account which can only be accessed by claims filed against the account by hospitals. Nobody is grandfathered. Letting a medical lien placed against a chanote to satisfy this requirement should be considered.

.... No need for all the chanote stuff and/or special bank accounts.

Well you are probably right but I think all this talk is simply the Thai way of preparing us for a big increase in the retirement requirement amounts. Using other and fairer options won't happen.

[Jingthing]

A simple solution would be:

1. For tourists. A small increase in the airport tax that is added to the ticket cost. 100 baht for example which reimburses hospitals for any unpaid bills. This is not buying insurance for tourists, in fact they don't know it exists.

2. For uninsured retirees. Double the 65000/800000k requirement with the increase going to a special medical account which can only be accessed by claims filed against the account by hospitals. Nobody is grandfathered. Letting a medical lien placed against a chanote to satisfy this requirement should be considered.

You've just suggested kicking out over half the retirees here. Congratulations! (I call that suggestion SMUGNESS on steroids.)

I seriously don't think anything Thai immigration is going to come up with about this, if anything, is going to be nearly as BAT SHEIT CRAZY as some of the anti-foreigner suggestions here from some foreigners themselves.

Please read the links and you will note as reported, "As regards older expats on one year visas, the most likely outcome is that applications will need to be accompanied by valid medical insurance or proof of a greater income or cash deposits than is currently required (800,000 baht for a retiree visa and 400,000 for a farang with a Thai spouse)." So really you are calling the Thais "smug". The numbers I used was simply based on the fact the requirement amounts were doubled from the last increase many years ago. Through in inflation and higher medical costs and the what some people have posted about 1 million baht for emergency cardiac care then the increase in my post in probably in the ball park but I hope it is much less of course.

Grandfathering people simply passes the buck. I think being able to pledge as asset such as a condo in lieu of an increase or insurance makes sense and easy to do. A medical lien is placed on the chanote and must be cleared if the condo is sold.

Ok, over to you, what is your suggestion? Please don't say some kind of government medical insurance plan for retirees because it ain't goin' to happen. There are simply too many political, financial and philosophical road blocks.

That quote was from a foreigner newspaper PATTAYA TODAY and was clearly a WILD GUESS and this guess was not attributed to ANY Thai official. Read my earlier post about that. Don't be fooled by the Bangkok Post connection. Its from PATTAYA TODAY.

So, no, I am not calling "the Thais" smug and I hope that is settled.

The Thais in the past have been rather COMPASSIONATE towards expat retirees here specifically with grandfathering exceptions. No, that is not guaranteed to continue in the future but it is at least a hopeful indicator.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[RubbaJohnny]

Simple solution is a

First

Money changer ATM upon arrival

Only allow healthy wealthy in have a queue at Swampy pay the Dr his bribe then proceed pre Immi to the Cash deposit nmachine

Deposit say $10 per day pre paid for each day you rquest so 1 year $3650

I like many othe retirees here wold happily pay $10 for 3 years in advance if it would spare endless photiocpies border runs and waste of time and energy.

Thailand of course could still deport or cancel visa of law breakers or carriers of contagious disease etc

If smart Thais will chage all inc toursts and keep it so as to pay for any defaulters

If generous it is a deporsit and refunded upon departure less any admin cosrs

Collect receipt approach immigration

Actual days allowed still subject to existing visa/discretion of Officer.

The defalut position will I fear be fit healthy folks paying for lots of insurance they dont need awhile old folks who would like health insurance being barred as individualas as unable to to pool thie risk which is the whole basis of insurance.

Borican Balcony are offering an early exit policy called the

Pattaya Assisted Balcony Exit

Once young lady has your PIN no all the rest FALLS into place

[Loptr]

Bearing in mind that it is very difficult to maintain health insurance policies past the age of 65 it would be a matter of the immigration authorities taking a decision on whether or not they actually want retirees in the country. Don't know how many there are, or even what their perceived value is to Thailand, but to make health insurance mandatory for the over 65's would be tantamount to telling them to leave.

Correct,and a win,win and win again option for Thailand PLC. At a stroke get rid of a section of the farang population that is hated and was hoisted onto them through the financial crash,all the illegal bought property issue ,all the ancient farang (bed bound young ones too) taking health care resources from the Thais,suddenly vanish. Can hardly say Thailand is unjust as a lot of other countries carry this requirement too.

You have obviously never had to make use of the medical system in Thailand or you would not make such a statement. Just try and get out of a Thai hospital without paying and see how far you get.

[Jingthing]

Dude, that first item that you quoted in the Bangkok Post which you originally used was SOURCED from Pattaya Today and the wild guess theory about specific changes was again, attributed to NOBODY. This is getting silly now.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[lopburi3]

One post has had to be removed for violation of forum rules.

[ThaiBob]

Dude, that first item that you quoted in the Bangkok Post which you originally used was SOURCED from Pattaya Today and the wild guess theory about specific changes was again, attributed to NOBODY. This is getting silly now.

The links have been removed but it is quite clear writer was not theorizing but reporting on studies and seminars conducted by the Public Health Ministry and it's Health Prime Minister Pradit Sinthawanarong which took place several weeks before the report. By the way this article was in the paper edition weeks before online. I would not dismiss these reports simply because they do not meet western standards of journalism. It sounds like you have been caught with your tit in the ringer and I am truly sorry. I was hoping for a dialogue for some better ideas and solutions than those reported and discussed so far.

Edited May 6, 2013 by ThaiBob

[Jingthing]

I differ in my interpretation of the article from Pattaya Today. Enough said.

[Morden]

If expats are forced to buy insurance who will buy a house or anything in Thailand

Once a again a insurance policy that is worth anything will cost at least 20 thousand baht a month

And will the medical care be as good as the care your home country that is free I doubt it.

Where did you get that figure? Fact or guess?

[Morden]

I really don't think that forcing expats to purchase medical insurance would accomplish anything as the insurers would simply exclude all pre-existing conditions. That leaves little else to be covered in most cases.

Utter nonsense!

[Nowhereman60]

Thank God none of you experts here about how Thailand should handle this issue work for Thai immigrations. This is a not going to happen issue, so dream on.

[lopburi3]

One post removed for comment on posters rather than topic.

[Morden]

You'd be surprised how many people over 50 have lifetime chronic conditions. Having treated high blood pressure, massively common, basically excludes you from coverage for ANYTHING to do with the heart including strokes.

Of course pre-existing problems aren't insurable! The best way to get around that is to be British and use the NHS which excludes nothing.

[Morden]

It sounds like another get rich scheme by politicians with investments in medical insurance companies here to make medical insurance compulsory. I looked at the premiums here and found that although they offered B5 Million cover for around B100,000/year, this was reduced to 1 Million for each incident and further reduced by limits on room charges. For instance BUPA, AIA, LMG, and similarly Thai medical insurance companies, have a limit on the room charge, and I could see that it was unlikely that I would be reimbursed medical fees for more than the annual fee, so I put money aside to cover my medical costs. I went to Australia in February and landed in hospital for 3 weeks and was faced with a bill of B1million which I paid cash from my built up medical fund. When I checked what BUPA would have paid out to cover my costs had I taken out a B100,000 policy I found that they would only have paid me B90,000 and not the B1million per incident quoted cover. For instance the ICU room charge in Australia was B160,000/night but BUPA limit per night is only B16,000.

For these reasons I would object to being forced to pay for medical insurance which is a rip off. However, I do not object to foreigners being required to show that they have sufficient funds in an account to cover medical fees.

What would you suggest is 'sufficient funds'. My policy has a lifetime limit of THB60m. Would that be a suitable benchmark?

Why do you think that medical insurance is a rip-off?

[Morden]

It is for reasons like this that I, and quite a few others I talk to, are staying fluid here. To me, it sounds like there are going to be quite a few instabilities here in the next ten years. I would like to retire here permanently but I am not going to put down any real roots until I see which way the wind blows on a number of things. I am not a rich farang. If I had to pay out 800,000 B for medical expenses, it would leave me with not a whole lot left. It would also cover quite a bit of medical care. Then when it came time for my next one year visa, I might not meet the requirement. Wouldn't that fix the problem in and of itself?

Do you mean THB800,000 for treatment or for insurance?

That sum won't pay for very much major treatment.

I don't know where the figure came from if you mean premium. I've never heard of a figure that high for insurance here.

[JLCrab]

It sounds like another get rich scheme by politicians with investments in medical insurance companies here to make medical insurance compulsory. I looked at the premiums here and found that although they offered B5 Million cover for around B100,000/year, this was reduced to 1 Million for each incident and further reduced by limits on room charges. For instance BUPA, AIA, LMG, and similarly Thai medical insurance companies, have a limit on the room charge, and I could see that it was unlikely that I would be reimbursed medical fees for more than the annual fee, so I put money aside to cover my medical costs. I went to Australia in February and landed in hospital for 3 weeks and was faced with a bill of B1million which I paid cash from my built up medical fund. When I checked what BUPA would have paid out to cover my costs had I taken out a B100,000 policy I found that they would only have paid me B90,000 and not the B1million per incident quoted cover. For instance the ICU room charge in Australia was B160,000/night but BUPA limit per night is only B16,000.

For these reasons I would object to being forced to pay for medical insurance which is a rip off. However, I do not object to foreigners being required to show that they have sufficient funds in an account to cover medical fees.

What would you suggest is 'sufficient funds'. My policy has a lifetime limit of THB60m. Would that be a suitable benchmark?

Why do you think that medical insurance is a rip-off?

The BUPA Platinum policy Table of Benfits sets coverage figures for Thailand and will cover treatment anywhere in the world (except the USA) up to those limits. It does not say that it will cover expenses as they might be incurred anywhere in the world

Edited May 7, 2013 by JLCrab

[Morden]

It goes a little further than do you have or do you not have insurance. It goes into how much is that insurance valid for. Not only in monetary value but in what it does and doesn't cover. I have medical insurance, for a value up to 300,000. I could change plan to 700,000. But whatever the amount it won't cover heart problem as they are a preexisting condition exclusion.

If I have a heart problem I'm not insured, if I have an accident that requires 600,000 to fix me up as it did with a friend I'm only half insured. And for those too old to get insurance have some extra cash around to pay for medical event. How much? 400,000 for a stent, more than a million for a pit bull attack.

Do they give me a visa because they see a piece of paper? Do they refuse a visa because they read that piece of paper and decide I'm gonna have a heart attack and I'm not insured for it?

Spot on. The enforcement issue is a can of worms. Another reason they probably won't do this.

I agree. As I wrote the other day, setting the rules would be very difficult and, probably, beyond the ability of those charged with doing the job. The danger is that they would come up with a simple set of rules that defied reason.

However, that does not devalue the argument that expats. and tourists should arrange their own voluntary insurance that has benefits sufficient for the most serious accident or illness.

[gmac]

You'd be surprised how many people over 50 have lifetime chronic conditions. Having treated high blood pressure, massively common, basically excludes you from coverage for ANYTHING to do with the heart including strokes.

Of course pre-existing problems aren't insurable! The best way to get around that is to be British and use the NHS which excludes nothing.

Apart from British Expats who, having spent a lifetime paying into the system, are precluded from using it because they choose to live in Thailand!

[Morden]

A simple solution would be:

1. For tourists. A small increase in the airport tax that is added to the ticket cost. 100 baht for example which reimburses hospitals for any unpaid bills. This is not buying insurance for tourists, in fact they don't know it exists.

2. For uninsured retirees. Double the 65000/800000k requirement with the increase going to a special medical account which can only be accessed by claims filed against the account by hospitals. Nobody is grandfathered. Letting a medical lien placed against a chanote to satisfy this requirement should be considered.

1. How do you know that the amount you suggest would be sufficient? why should those with insurance fund those who can't pay?

2. Why should everyone pay the same amount, regardless of pre-existing health an age? How can it be certain that the 'fund' would be sufficient?

[Morden]

You'd be surprised how many people over 50 have lifetime chronic conditions. Having treated high blood pressure, massively common, basically excludes you from coverage for ANYTHING to do with the heart including strokes.

Of course pre-existing problems aren't insurable! The best way to get around that is to be British and use the NHS which excludes nothing.

Apart from British Expats who, having spent a lifetime paying into the system, are precluded from using it because they choose to live in Thailand!

Unless they are aged 65+ when they can, if able to travel, go back to Britain for free treatment. They no longer have to pay NI contributions either. Younger people can use the NHS free if they have been back in Britain for six months or more. No-one can get NHS treatment in foreign hospitals.

[kerrysum]

Smells fishy to me , that is all I will say.......

kilosierra........

[jayboy]

It amaze me why someone who wants to move to Thailand for retirement reasons would not plan in advance for health insurance before even coming here. That should be one of the top things to consider at that age before making a move.

Such a smug attitude clearly written by someone who doesn't know how it feels to be UNINSURABLE.

It may seem a little heartless but it does draw attention to an important point.There is no official Thai policy to encourage low and middle income foreigners to retire here.Certainly there are many such expatriates falling into this category but the phenonomen is relatively recent - certainly not more than thirty years or so.Thai Immigration policy is very liberal in some ways and the current arrangements represent a pragmatic response to the very large numbers seeking to retire here.Over the last few decades Thailand has developed fast and there is no pressing economic need to encourage a large population of relatively poor Westerners.I don't believe that existing retirees will be adversely affected but equally it's unrealistic to expect the Thai authorities to extend privileges in health care to people who can't afford medical treatment or who don't have comprehensive health insurance.The cost of the latter is sometimes profoundly underestimated.For a 65 year male the premium cost for a first class cover could easily be Baht 200,000 per year with increases thereafter well over the inflation rate.

The painful conclusion is that there are many thousands of expatriates -if they are going to be careful about their health - who should not really be here at all.They simply can't afford it.Realistically the vast majority can't or won't go home, and in the case of those who have Thai partners and families one can entirely understand their reasoning.

[Balance]

Another solution is to get countries of origin to extend their national health system coverage to other counties that meet requirements. At 65, Americans get hospitalization coverage as part of Medicare (with a 20% co-pay unless you buy a supplemental policy. You pay about $110 a month for the provider side of the cost structure (same co-pay). BUT, Medicare pays nothing if you are an expat. Retired military folks are covered in Thailand and other countries, however. I bought the top of the line AIA policy, including some life insurance for my Thai wife for TB 76,000 a year. .

A large international group of hospitals (including 2 or 3 in Thailand), recently hired a lobbying firm to push to redefine medical tourism as a trade issue and by doing so make insurance coverage valid across borders.

[Loptr]

You'd be surprised how many people over 50 have lifetime chronic conditions. Having treated high blood pressure, massively common, basically excludes you from coverage for ANYTHING to do with the heart including strokes.

Of course pre-existing problems aren't insurable! The best way to get around that is to be British and use the NHS which excludes nothing.

Apart from British Expats who, having spent a lifetime paying into the system, are precluded from using it because they choose to live in Thailand!

Unless they are aged 65+ when they can, if able to travel, go back to Britain for free treatment. They no longer have to pay NI contributions either. Younger people can use the NHS free if they have been back in Britain for six months or more. No-one can get NHS treatment in foreign hospitals.

Not everyone is from the UK.

One would think that if something like this goes into effect, the Thai government would need to provide a means of insuring those that cannot obtain a policy through a private carrier in Thailand. Either by requiring private carriers to provide policies to older age groups or through conscription into the public system. The press would have a field day if the Thai government began deporting retirees because they cannot get an insurance policy that the government mandates.

[JLCrab]

From Post #204 above: A large international group of hospitals (including 2 or 3 in Thailand), recently hired a lobbying firm to push to redefine medical tourism as a trade issue and by doing so make insurance coverage valid across borders.

Medical tourism by definition would be someone who comes to Thailand or some other country for a given procedure and then, when sufficiently recovered to travel and no complications are evident, goes home.

[Soutpeel]

One would think that if something like this goes into effect, the Thai government would need to provide a means of insuring those that cannot obtain a policy through a private carrier in Thailand. Either by requiring private carriers to provide policies to older age groups or through conscription into the public system. The press would have a field day if the Thai government began deporting retirees because they cannot get an insurance policy that the government mandates.

Why should the goverment provide the means for this insurance ?....for the most part retiree's are neither PR or Thai citizens, the Thai goverment's only obligation is to look after its own citizens, not look after a collection of foreign people living here....you statements sound like they come from who has been living in a nanny state...they goverment has to do something...!!!

further they would not be deporting anyone, if something like this came in fruition, which incidently I dont think will happen, you will declined your extension/visa in other words you cant be here...this is not deportation by any stretch of the imagination.

The only goverments people should be appealing to, "to do something" should be their own goverments in their respective countries...get them to foot the bill

Edited May 7, 2013 by Soutpeel

[ThaiBob]

A simple solution would be:

1. For tourists. A small increase in the airport tax that is added to the ticket cost. 100 baht for example which reimburses hospitals for any unpaid bills. This is not buying insurance for tourists, in fact they don't know it exists.

2. For uninsured retirees. Double the 65000/800000k requirement with the increase going to a special medical account which can only be accessed by claims filed against the account by hospitals. Nobody is grandfathered. Letting a medical lien placed against a chanote to satisfy this requirement should be considered.

1. How do you know that the amount you suggest would be sufficient? why should those with insurance fund those who can't pay?

2. Why should everyone pay the same amount, regardless of pre-existing health an age? How can it be certain that the 'fund' would be sufficient?

1. I don't but the numbers of tourists going through Suvarnaphumi is something like 13 million so the revenue generated far exceeds the reported shortfalls from both the tourists and retiree community combined. Philosophically some may have a problem indirectly funding medical insurance for tourists.

2. Historically, Immigration has doubled this amount in the past but the amount could be a lot less or more. The increase is in the neighborhood of what people here have been throwing around for a major medical event. This really isn't a fund that the retiree uses to pay medical bills. It is more like a guarantee, it can only be accessed for unpaid hospital claims. The bond or fund could be in a higher interest account. If a claim is made against the account then the retiree must replenish the amount to renew the retirement visa. Only those with medical insurance are grandfathered since the older foreigners are at the greater risk. A retiree could put up his house or condo as collateral for the bond/fund. Just putting some ideas out there.

[Hedghog]

800,000 is money to spend in Thailand to live on, etc.

it all depends on the care you would require, a few nights in ICU will cost you a fortune. Especially at a private hospital. A 1 week stay at ICU will not leave you much money if you only have 800,000 baht and need hart surgery.

A one week stay at my local private hospital is Bht,3.500 per day plus medication.

Hardly breaking the bank.

[ThaiBob]

800,000 is money to spend in Thailand to live on, etc.

it all depends on the care you would require, a few nights in ICU will cost you a fortune. Especially at a private hospital. A 1 week stay at ICU will not leave you much money if you only have 800,000 baht and need hart surgery.

A one week stay at my local private hospital is Bht,3.500 per day plus medication.

Hardly breaking the bank.

Where's that?