Problems With Discover Card From America

[KRS1]

It's good luck that your Discover card does not work.

Discover will find every way possible to screw you over, and that includes changing payment due dates on you without telling you.

Best to stick that Discover card back into the drawer.

Edited May 23, 2013 by KRS1

[Pib]

Here's a good and recent article on "Find the Best No Foreign Transaction Fee Credit Cards." Link. Might be helpful to U.S. folks, whether they live in the U.S. and/or Thailand, shopping for a new credit card.

And under the Discover card link in the article there is a more detailed discussion on the Discover card. I use to have a Discover card about a half dozen years ago but cancelled it when its rewards program mutated to having too much fine print and at that time they had a foreign transaction fee. However, Discover seems to have fixed a lot of those issues although they still seem to have a limited but growing international acceptance. When I did use the card it was widely accepted "in the U.S." but some smaller merchants would not take it...the same smaller merchants who would accept Visa or MasterCard or even American Express. But like I said, that was a half dozen years ago. But my sister in the U.S. still uses her Discover card for some of the special, higher cash back quarterly Discovers offers...but she still primarily uses her CapOne MasterCard which provides a better overall cash back program and does the same higher quarterly offering thing....seems most credit cards are getting into offering limited timeframe higher cash back/reward points...but I expect that is really just manufacturer XYZ getting with the Discover/MasterCard/Visa/American Express/etc., and providing a subsidy of sorts when the customer buys their product if using credit card XYZ.

For me, I've never really been able to take advantage of those special/higher cash back offers since it was products/services I wasn't interested in, or if I was interested in higher cash back say from Lowe's Hardware Store for Jan-Mar as it turns out I didn't need anything from Lowe's Hardware Store during that quarter. I much prefer credit cards that give a flat rebate program of X percent pretty much whatever, whenever, or wherever you buy it. Keep the cash back program simple and straight forth with little to no fine print....none of this you have to have spend so much during the current year before you get the higher percentage, etc. But with that being said, the special, higher cash back offers are generally a good thing when the offer matches up with a current buy need you have. And of course, I want a card that does not charge an annual fee, which none of my U.S. credit/debit cards do. And another of course, a card which is widely accepted worldwide is a must for anyone who travels.

For me, I'll stick to my no foreign transaction fee CapOne Mastercard credit card which pays 2% or 1% cash back (2% for most of my buys in Thailand to include all Lotus/Big C buys) and my CapOne Visa card card which pays a 1.5% on everything. I've got another no foreign transaction fee Visa credit card from the Pentagon Federal Credit Union which provides a 0.25% cash back program, but it lives in my safe as a backup in case CapOne ever changes their no foreign transaction fee policy. And as mentioned in one of my earlier posts you fair a little better on exchange rates with a Visa card than a MasterCard....I can't speak to the exchange rate offered by Discover. And I can't remember seeing an "We Accept Discover Card" signs in Thai stores like Lotus, Big C., etc., like you see for Visa and MasterCard, but maybe stores like Lotus, Big C do accept Discover card. I guess what may determine if Big C or Lotus accepts the Discover card at the checkout cash register is which local Thai bank network is used to process the point of sale transaction...heck, I'm guessing....maybe there are other folks living in Thailand who have and use their Discover card in Thai stores...would be interesting to hear from those folks. Cheers.

[ianguygil]

Good, informative post by Pib

One other item to consider is that the number on your card has what is called a "BIN" number. This is the most significant (left hand) of the 16 digit credit card number. If that is a range reserved for Visa your card is a Visa card, and so on. It may be a debit card or a credit card, but if it uses one of the ranges reserved for an international network it is one of their cards, by definition.

Please see the following for the list of reserved BIN numbers. We all use a DB which is a bit more up to date probably

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Issuer_Identification_Numbers

[Pib]

Yeap, all the important data is the number itself and the info encoded on the chip/magnetic strip. The pictures, logos, etc., is just visual/pretty stuff for the humans looking at the card...but of course if a store only takes Visa for example that Visa logo then gets important just to convince the clerk to swipe the card through their transaction processing machine...of course the machine could care less about the logo as it's reading the number/encoded data.

I wonder what would happen if you handed a clerk a card void of logo/picture/text...just the number showing on the card along with the chip/magnetic strip and your signature on the back (not that stores in Thailand seem to care about verifying a credit/debit card signature)? Hopefully, they would get suspicious.

[ianguygil]

The appearance of the card gets little scrutiny anywhere in the world. Some banks allow you to send a personal photo which is used for the whole background of the card. So while their logos may show, you and your dog are what is prominently on show (should you choose to send that photo).

One advantage that Thailand has is that we have adopted the EMV (Chip) standard for Credit Cards. So it is pretty much impossible to clone the card as the details are held in the Chip. Although a classic step is to disable the chip and to fake the mag stripe, and some unknowing merchants accept the strip details. But overall Credit Card "skimming" is pretty much unknown in Thailand.

Debit cards are another matter. We are as far as I know the only Thai bank to offere Debit Cards which are EMV compliant (we were some time ago and this may have changed, I am not sure as I only use BBL cards). The majority of our ATMs are able to accept these cards, as are ATM machines in most locations overseas. However, the other Thai bank ATM machines cannot, so if you get one, at least for now, you are tied to our ATM locations (about 8,000 of which are in Thailand).

In the US they have refused to accept EMV but they are being pushed into it. They have such fantastic processing speeds and huge AI engines in the background, that they are able to detect most fraud. Their losses are just a few basis points. But despite this they will be pushed to accept EMV for interoperability. As it is many US credit card holders are denied in Europe as they have no chip. Many US banks offer EMV compliant cards for those who travel a lot. This is a pretty hit and miss situation at the moment in the US but I am sure it will come to clarity in the next year or so.

Edited May 26, 2013 by ianguygil

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The chipped Be1st Smart Card is a nice feature for BKK Bank to offer. Unfortunately, the inability to use that card with ANY other Thai bank's ATMs is a bit of disadvantage.

It's really unfortunately that, given how the Thai banks cooperate and coordinate about so many things, that they couldn't manage to get together and adopt a cohesive unified standard for debit card security.

The fact that the Be1st Smart card can't be used at any other Thai bank ATMs besides those of BKKB, and the fact that at least for now, it also can't be used at ATMs in the U.S., is what's prevented me from getting one in favor of the traditional non-chipped Be1st card, which can be used at other Thai banks' ATMs and at ATMs in the States.

I'd really prefer to have and use the chipped version, if all else was equal.

I asked some BKKB branch staff recently if anything was on the horizon that might lead do changes that would allow for the use of the card in other Thai banks' ATMs... And I got the usual kind of "we don't have a clue" kind of answer.

Edited May 26, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Ditto. The Bkk Bk debit card using a chip is a nice security additive; however, I want the capability to use my Bkk Bk debit card in any Thai bank ATM so that is why I opted to stay with their debit card that uses the magnetic strip. There have been times a Bkk Bk ATM has not been readily available or was inop/out of cash so I had to use another Thai bank ATM.

Sent from mt tablet

[ianguygil]

The chipped Be1st Smart Card is a nice feature for BKK Bank to offer. Unfortunately, the inability to use that card with ANY other Thai bank's ATMs is a bit of disadvantage.

It's really unfortunately that, given how the Thai banks cooperate and coordinate about so many things, that they couldn't manage to get together and adopt a cohesive unified standard for debit card security.

The fact that the Be1st Smart card can't be used at any other Thai bank ATMs besides those of BKKB, and the fact that at least for now, it also can't be used at ATMs in the U.S., is what's prevented me from getting one in favor of the traditional non-chipped Be1st card, which can be used at other Thai banks' ATMs and at ATMs in the States.

I'd really prefer to have and use the chipped version, if all else was equal.

I asked some BKKB branch staff recently if anything was on the horizon that might lead do changes that would allow for the use of the card in other Thai banks' ATMs... And I got the usual kind of "we don't have a clue" kind of answer.

Tallguy (John)

EMV is the international standard. So at some point for ATM cards which can be used abroad all the Thai banks will need to go with EMV. But local cards will not unless the local regulators require it.

There is a huge capital expenditure to upgrade thousands of ATMs at each of the 4 largest banks, so why would you think that we could push our competitors to do this? We have done it to protect our customers and to protect ourselves against foreign fraudsters.

I would say that expecting line staff in branches to know about the strategies of our competitors is not at all reasonable. If there was a hard date at which all the banks had to upgrade to be compatible that would be different. But acting as if they are somehow "clueless" just shows your usual negative and critical approach to almost all things Thai/ Good luck with asking that kind of question in a BofA or CHASE branch back in your home town of LA.

Makes me wonder why you live here if everything is so poor here and so perfect for you back in the US......

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The Thai banks seemed to manage to collude on a variety of other things quite well, including the implementation of the 150 baht fee for foreign ATM card use. I was merely pointing out, it's too bad they couldn't collude equally well on a debit card security standard.

BKK Bank deserves credit for making the investment in a debit card security alternative. It just happens to be one that has disadvantages as long as it's a solo operation, incompatible with every other Thai bank. One might imagine that settling these kinds of issues in sensible, customer friendly way MIGHT have been the kind of thing the Thai Bankers Assn. was intended for...

As for the U.S., I don't believe the major banks there issue debit cards that are incapable of being used at other major U.S. banks.. so you've certainly got an edge on them there...

If my comments reflect any criticism, it's aimed at the collective Thai banking system for perpetuating an unsecure debit card system combined with banking regulations that provide no meaningful consumer protection against responsibility for fraudulent charges. Along with the seeming inability of that same banking system to come to a customer friendly solution that works across the entire banking system, not just BKKB.

Edited May 26, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ianguygil]

The Thai banks seemed to manage to collude on a variety of other things quite well, including the implementation of the 150 baht fee for foreign ATM card use. I was merely pointing out, it's too bad they couldn't collude equally well on a debit card security standard.

BKK Bank deserves credit for making the investment in a debit card security alternative. It just happens to be one that has disadvantages as long as it's a solo operation, incompatible with every other Thai bank. One might imagine that settling these kinds of issues in sensible, customer friendly way MIGHT have been the kind of thing the Thai Bankers Assn. was intended for...

As for the U.S., I don't believe the major banks there issue debit cards that are incapable of being used at other major U.S. banks.. so you've certainly got an edge on them there...

If my comments reflect any criticism, it's aimed at the collective Thai banking system for perpetuating an unsecure debit card system combined with banking regulations that provide no meaningful consumer protection against responsibility for fraudulent charges. Along with the seeming inability of that same banking system to come to a customer friendly solution that works across the entire banking system, not just BKKB.

Usual "hack" approach of evading the point

As I said, this type of question, not this specific question. The point being that average bank staff are not going to be aware of the unpublished strategies of their competitors. The job of the front line bank staff is to serve the customer needs with the Bank's products, not to speculate about competitors.

I realize you are somebody who has not actually every "done" anything, just spent your life commenting on what others do. Kind of like a professional mother-in-law. But if you were in the situation where you wanted to offer your customers something which will provide them with better security, but your completitors were not ready to take that step, what would you do? Just talking is not sufficient. We made the choice, we offer the product. There is some disadvantage that you can not use the ATMS of other banks at this point. But at least you have the choice.

Enjoy taking risks on getting skimmed, and on "commenting" your life away rather than actually doing something..

Edited May 27, 2013 by ianguygil

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As usual Ian, you prefer to engage in personal jibes more than discuss the issues and facts at hand.

I'm not going to go down that road with you. Suffice to say, you work for Bangkok Bank, and I don't. You're an employee and I'm a bank customer.

It's hardly surprising we'd have different views on this things.

The thread has run its course, and I'm pretty certain the OP has the info he was looking for. Why not give it a rest.

Edited May 27, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ianguygil]

Oh, John, did I hurt your feelings Funny that one who lords it over the forum and always has to have the last cynical word has such thin skin.

I will file your comments in my "abberant loner" folder and will try to provide constructive answers to the questions and requests of other customers while on this forum.

I gave up trying to do that with you a long time ago........

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks Ian for sticking to your normal style.

I don't have any thin skin and am willing anytime to have a productive conversation about Thai banking issues.

Unfortunately, it seems it's impossible to have such a conversation with you.

I'm simply trying to bring a graceful end to a thread that's run its course.

Edited May 27, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ianguygil]

And always have the last word....eh John..... A little compulsive there...........