topt Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Tried a few of these cheapies and the reds have been fine. I bought nothing older than 2011, white or red, and I got there early enough to get a few excellent bargains. 88th Drop Shiraz 2012 very good; exactly the same wine over 700 baht in Villa. I paid under 200. Bushmans Gully 2012 Shiraz perfectly acceptable and now on sale as our house wine. Paid 142 baht a bottle. Mainly bought red as many of the whites were too old but the three whites I've sampled have been perfectly drinkable. Certainly went down well at a birthday party last week! I think only the dregs left on the shelves now. So it was YOU..........who took all of the good wines because there was nothing but "dregs" left when I got there yesterday!!!!Sounds like it was a good plan of yours and certainly the 88th drop 2012 was a damn good buy, as I bought some when they were on special at Tesco Lotus on the bypass road. And cannot complain about Bushman's Gully at that price. On the one hand, good on you – – and on the other, please share your good fortune sooner!! Yes, I do apologise for that but I completely forgot. But on the day I bought all mine, there were a couple of other buyers filling their trolleys, one Thai guy in particular grabbing all the better white wine options. I think my timing was just lucky. I went in to buy something completely different! From prices quoted it seems clear that different areas seem to work on a very different "clearance" price method. Most of the recent stuff on clearance in the Pattaya Tesco Lotus stores (that I have seen) have been starting at 300 or more often 400/499 baht. One can unfortunately only dream of anything drinkable here under 200 very envious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 GS.......... don't think I spied the "fruit wine" words on the back of the label, however as I need glasses for small print now, it could quite easily be there!!! Yeah I mentioned the elephant in the cellar because of the way the front labels read "fruity red" this gives me the impression that there's something other than 100% grapes in it. There's nothing (generally) wrong with 'NV' stock, more prevalent in champagne or sparkling wines than table wine but it's certainly not stuff you put away for a special occasion.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylophone Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 GS.......... don't think I spied the "fruit wine" words on the back of the label, however as I need glasses for small print now, it could quite easily be there!!! Yeah I mentioned the elephant in the cellar because of the way the front labels read "fruity red" this gives me the impression that there's something other than 100% grapes in it. There's nothing (generally) wrong with 'NV' stock, more prevalent in champagne or sparkling wines than table wine but it's certainly not stuff you put away for a special occasion.. Well now you come to mention it, I have the same mindset and whenever I see the words "fruity/fruit driven/berries etc etc" I am extremely cautious and search the back label for anything which says "fruit wine". Had another look at the Hardys VR range and they do have a vintage year on the label, for example "Merlot 2013" so that precludes a combination of years being blended to produce the final product, or at least it should do! Not only that, how they manage to get an alcohol content of 10% is beyond me. On some of the bottles I'm sure I have seen the words "sweet and fruity" on the label which is even more puzzling, and then on the website this; "Our VR range retains the purity of single varieties without the complexity of secondary winemaking practices". This is open to speculation, however "secondary winemaking practices" could well refer to the malolactic fermentation which takes place after initial fermentation? So perhaps the alcohol content is low and there is a certain "sweetness/fruitiness" to the wine because it hasn't undergone a malolactic fermentation and the fermentation process has been stopped? Curiouser and curiouser! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Well now you come to mention it, I have the same mindset and whenever I see the words "fruity/fruit driven/berries etc etc" I am extremely cautious and search the back label for anything which says "fruit wine". Had another look at the Hardys VR range and they do have a vintage year on the label, for example "Merlot 2013" so that precludes a combination of years being blended to produce the final product, or at least it should do! Not only that, how they manage to get an alcohol content of 10% is beyond me. On some of the bottles I'm sure I have seen the words "sweet and fruity" on the label which is even more puzzling, and then on the website this; "Our VR range retains the purity of single varieties without the complexity of secondary winemaking practices". This is open to speculation, however "secondary winemaking practices" could well refer to the malolactic fermentation which takes place after initial fermentation? So perhaps the alcohol content is low and there is a certain "sweetness/fruitiness" to the wine because it hasn't undergone a malolactic fermentation and the fermentation process has been stopped? Curiouser and curiouser! I believe, could be wrong as I don't drink the stuff, but I believe after the '13 vintage the label changed to its current format whereas previously it had the vintage year on it. So I'd be interested to see if it has indeed changed to an 'NV' format or it's displayed on their website that way just for aesthetics. To get a wine down around 10%, you cut the initial fermentation process time short, plenty of whites that fall around that 10-11% abv. Like how they say "without the complexity..." that tells me it's an everyday drinking wine, sort of like a microwave meal from 7/11 vs a restaurant quality feast... Merlot is generally a more fruit driven varietal so it's not too much of a stretch if you cut the primary fermentation time you're going to have a sweet tasting wine, add in a bit of residual sugar and you have yourself a 10.5% abv wine. Interestingly enough, I was having a few bottles over the weekend with some friends and they brought out a bottle of 'Woodbridge' Cab Sauv. by Robert Mondavi (I'm no fan of Californian Cab Sauv. I find it's like drinking wine out of an ash tray) the first mouthful I had a look at the bottle as there was definitely something other than Cab Sauv (as shown on the label) a quick look at the tasting notes on their website: http://www.woodbridgewines.com/doc/wb_cab-sauv-2013-tn.pdf and one instantly sees the varietal breakdown, obviously the US wine industry labeling requirements are a little lower than Australia. I could only have the one glass as it was just too sweet and it was only worsened by that ash tray taste. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylophone Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Hmmm GS, that is some mix!! ..............77% Cabernet Sauvignon 7% Syrah 4% Barbera 3% Tannat 2% Petit Verdot 2% Merlot 5% other red varieties. As for the Hardys red, doubt I'll ever taste it, and as you say, cutting down the primary fermentation time, then no malolactic, will give you a cheap, fruity, lowish alcohol wine. This seems to be at odds with the recent press release from the CEO of McGuigans Wine, when he said there was a need to focus on "quality wines which will fetch a price premium" (in so many words) because there was too much wine swilling around the bottom end?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Hmmm GS, that is some mix!! ..............77% Cabernet Sauvignon 7% Syrah 4% Barbera 3% Tannat 2% Petit Verdot 2% Merlot 5% other red varieties. As for the Hardys red, doubt I'll ever taste it, and as you say, cutting down the primary fermentation time, then no malolactic, will give you a cheap, fruity, lowish alcohol wine. This seems to be at odds with the recent press release from the CEO of McGuigans Wine, when he said there was a need to focus on "quality wines which will fetch a price premium" (in so many words) because there was too much wine swilling around the bottom end?? Yeah it was 'impressive' and probably the worst wine of the night. McGuigan needs to practise what he preaches, especially when his company owns one of the biggest and cheapest mass produced sparkling wines in Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 xylophone, here's a new development... http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2015/03/will-wine-based-drink-damage-our-wine-industry/ Haven't seen these yet in Thailand and I dared say it will be a matter of when, not if, we will see them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topt Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 xylophone, here's a new development... http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2015/03/will-wine-based-drink-damage-our-wine-industry/ Haven't seen these yet in Thailand and I dared say it will be a matter of when, not if, we will see them... The writer could at least have reviewed them for taste............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) xylophone, here's a new development... http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2015/03/will-wine-based-drink-damage-our-wine-industry/ Haven't seen these yet in Thailand and I dared say it will be a matter of when, not if, we will see them... The writer could at least have reviewed them for taste............... Personally, I would've been put off by the perceived "expiration date" ("Best enjoyed within 1 year of purchase, drink within 2 days of opening") Here's another link to the original Daily Mail article, goes into it a bit more... I thought the Mail was still blocked in Thailand but apparently it's not... It includes a "review"... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2972026/Shoppers-misled-supermarkets-selling-wine-based-drink-s-75-wine-bottles-look-like-real-thing.html Edited March 2, 2015 by GrantSmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topt Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 xylophone, here's a new development... http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2015/03/will-wine-based-drink-damage-our-wine-industry/ Haven't seen these yet in Thailand and I dared say it will be a matter of when, not if, we will see them... The writer could at least have reviewed them for taste............... Personally, I would've been put off by the perceived "expiration date" ("Best enjoyed within 1 year of purchase, drink within 2 days of opening") Here's another link to the original Daily Mail article, goes into it a bit more... I thought the Mail was still blocked in Thailand but apparently it's not... It includes a "review"... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2972026/Shoppers-misled-supermarkets-selling-wine-based-drink-s-75-wine-bottles-look-like-real-thing.html Missed that. Does beg the question what is the difference between buying it and taking it home and how long it has been in storage/shelved by the store. Unfortunately that link is blocked for me - unless I use a VPN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Personally, I would've been put off by the perceived "expiration date" ("Best enjoyed within 1 year of purchase, drink within 2 days of opening") Here's another link to the original Daily Mail article, goes into it a bit more... I thought the Mail was still blocked in Thailand but apparently it's not... It includes a "review"... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2972026/Shoppers-misled-supermarkets-selling-wine-based-drink-s-75-wine-bottles-look-like-real-thing.html Missed that. Does beg the question what is the difference between buying it and taking it home and how long it has been in storage/shelved by the store. Unfortunately that link is blocked for me - unless I use a VPN. Based on the "recommended" consumption period, there'd have to be a manufacturing date on the bottle somewhere, similar to beer bottles... As for the link being blocked, I'm in Thailand, where the Mail has been blocked for a while now, not sure why it's working.. Oh wait, if I enter www.dailymail.co.uk it will got to the ICT blocked page, but clicking on the direct link seems to bypass that.. Strange.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylophone Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 xylophone, here's a new development... http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2015/03/will-wine-based-drink-damage-our-wine-industry/ Haven't seen these yet in Thailand and I dared say it will be a matter of when, not if, we will see them... Quote from the article; "But much more seriously, having this crap among real wine will devalue the sector and the brands. New Zealand wine makers must be proactive at making sure their product stands out as genuine". That is my stance as well and something I have been harping on about in this thread for some time. The puzzling thing for me is why there is a need to do it (add fruit juice to wine, that is) and I say this for the following reasons: – – It is not as if there is a worldwide shortage of wine, and more often than not there is a glut of wine, so there is no need to mix wine with anything else to make it go round. –Surely wine lovers will want to drink wine, not something which has been adulterated with fruit juice? – One can still purchase an everyday bottle of red wine in most countries (apart from Thailand and perhaps a few others with exorbitant taxes) for the equivalent of around NZ$12 a bottle, sometimes much lower if they are "cleanskins", for example. So it doesn't seem possible that price is too much of an issue. –This stuff will not improve with age or develop characteristics which sets wine apart from other drinks. The really annoying thing about it, and one which this article points out, is that very often the fact that the wine has fruit juice mixed with it is hidden from the purchaser, so they are not playing straight with the public. And back to my other point.........why is this necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Just chatting with a friend from England about this article, she had a bottle of this "Copper Red" the other day, said it tasted something similar to a proper wine riddled with brett - wet dog & mildew - and plenty of what she thought could've been residual sugar, after she read the article she's now of the opinion that sugar wasn't residual.. I'm sure there's no connection, but I'll throw on my tin foil hat for a second. Now, take a look at the wine company involved in the article - Australian Vintage Limited - do a little a bit of googling about where they distribute their wine and who they do it with... A conspiracy theorist would theorise that it wouldn't be a long bow to draw before these products find their way onto the shelves of Big C, Tesco and Tops... It's also quite ironic that it's the larger wineries (who do pretty well off their own bat) would want to devalue their bread'n'butter by producing such an inferior product. I am of the opinion that these fruit wines / wine drinks do nothing to enhance the image of wine and only fuel the "wine is so expensive in this country" mantra that plagues the industry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Just in case you needed a reason not to drink Gallo wines... http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2015/03/gallo-sued-over-arsenic-found-in-bottles/ I'd hate to be the importer of this wine right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony5 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Just in case you needed a reason not to drink Gallo wines... http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2015/03/gallo-sued-over-arsenic-found-in-bottles/ I'd hate to be the importer of this wine right now... In Europe there was a scandal several years ago about a wine importer adding anti-freeze to wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylophone Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Just in case you needed a reason not to drink Gallo wines... http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2015/03/gallo-sued-over-arsenic-found-in-bottles/ I'd hate to be the importer of this wine right now... In Europe there was a scandal several years ago about a wine importer adding anti-freeze to wine. And an Italian winemaker a couple of decades ago who used ground up black umbrella handles to give colour to his red wine.....these from defective handles produced in his friends factory!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eezergood Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Currently sat in Bali, the selections here are much worse and more expensive! Count your blessings gents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylophone Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Currently sat in Bali, the selections here are much worse and more expensive! Count your blessings gents Hope you will stay in touch Eezergood and good luck in your new venture. X 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmitch Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Interesting article, very much in keeping with the tone of this thread, from the Gazette. I think I'm allowed to link http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Special-Report-Thailands-wine-industry-crossroads/52624 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Interesting article, very much in keeping with the tone of this thread, from the Gazette. I think I'm allowed to link http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Special-Report-Thailands-wine-industry-crossroads/52624 Great article that probably sums up what we've been - for the most part - discussing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylophone Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Interesting article, very much in keeping with the tone of this thread, from the Gazette. I think I'm allowed to link http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Special-Report-Thailands-wine-industry-crossroads/52624 Great article that probably sums up what we've been - for the most part - discussing here. Agree with your comments although I do believe that the author has been a little bit lenient on the likes of Siam Winery because the non-disclosing of added fruit juice (and/or whatever else) would be illegal in most countries. And to quote something from the article, "But I would be far happier if I knew what went into them, or where they were boxed and bottled. If you are a consumer of budget priced drinks, try to identify the blue seal and drink boxed imported wines such as Castle Creek, Bodegas and Cedar Creek. In theory these are reaping the benefits of container technology, an Antipodean wine glut and a trade agreement on wines from Oz. But even here, alarm bells are ringing. Castle Creek, described as a "wine fruit product" contains not only sulphites but also milk and egg. Presumably these are added during the process of finding whereby impurities and solids are removed from the bottom of the fermentation tank". In the first paragraph the author seems to be saying that the boxed wines he has mentioned are only cheap because of the container technology and the wine glut, but he also fails to mention that they specifically state on the box that fruit juice is added, which is the main reason for the cheapness (I know he does mention Castle Creek as being a "wine fruit product" in the next para, but it is not in the same context). And as for milk and egg being used for fining purposes, well that has been done since time immemorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I'm glad some people got to read that article, apparently it has been pulled from the website.. A real sad state of affairs.. But not entirely surprised it was pulled. I'd also expect - unfortunately, because there is nothing defamatory about the article - the editor of the article to be hauled before whoever it is holds to account the press.. This article speaks the truth and as long as the government perceives to drive the excise tax upwards, these ghastedly 'fruit wines' will continue to 1. Have a place in the market and 2. Continue to market themselves as 'wine'. I don't have an issue with point 1, I do have an issue with point 2 being marketed as a wine product i.e a product made 100% from grapes... Recently, I've discovered a new entrant to the market whose wines are vegan friendly, that is, wines that do not use eggs or milk in the fining process. Whilst not 'certified' vegan, I know for a fact, they are as described. Fantastic wines too.. It's getting rather onerous trying to explain the difference between wines and fruit wines, especially when you're attempting to do so with people who should know better... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmitch Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'm glad some people got to read that article, apparently it has been pulled from the website.. A real sad state of affairs.. But not entirely surprised it was pulled. I'd also expect - unfortunately, because there is nothing defamatory about the article - the editor of the article to be hauled before whoever it is holds to account the press.. This article speaks the truth and as long as the government perceives to drive the excise tax upwards, these ghastedly 'fruit wines' will continue to 1. Have a place in the market and 2. Continue to market themselves as 'wine'. I don't have an issue with point 1, I do have an issue with point 2 being marketed as a wine product i.e a product made 100% from grapes... Recently, I've discovered a new entrant to the market whose wines are vegan friendly, that is, wines that do not use eggs or milk in the fining process. Whilst not 'certified' vegan, I know for a fact, they are as described. Fantastic wines too.. It's getting rather onerous trying to explain the difference between wines and fruit wines, especially when you're attempting to do so with people who should know better... Link is still working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyoldman Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'm glad some people got to read that article, apparently it has been pulled from the website.. A real sad state of affairs.. But not entirely surprised it was pulled. I'd also expect - unfortunately, because there is nothing defamatory about the article - the editor of the article to be hauled before whoever it is holds to account the press.. This article speaks the truth and as long as the government perceives to drive the excise tax upwards, these ghastedly 'fruit wines' will continue to 1. Have a place in the market and 2. Continue to market themselves as 'wine'. I don't have an issue with point 1, I do have an issue with point 2 being marketed as a wine product i.e a product made 100% from grapes... Recently, I've discovered a new entrant to the market whose wines are vegan friendly, that is, wines that do not use eggs or milk in the fining process. Whilst not 'certified' vegan, I know for a fact, they are as described. Fantastic wines too.. It's getting rather onerous trying to explain the difference between wines and fruit wines, especially when you're attempting to do so with people who should know better... Yes indeedy, terrific vintage of Mulberry juice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'm glad some people got to read that article, apparently it has been pulled from the website.. A real sad state of affairs.. But not entirely surprised it was pulled. I'd also expect - unfortunately, because there is nothing defamatory about the article - the editor of the article to be hauled before whoever it is holds to account the press.. This article speaks the truth and as long as the government perceives to drive the excise tax upwards, these ghastedly 'fruit wines' will continue to 1. Have a place in the market and 2. Continue to market themselves as 'wine'. I don't have an issue with point 1, I do have an issue with point 2 being marketed as a wine product i.e a product made 100% from grapes... Recently, I've discovered a new entrant to the market whose wines are vegan friendly, that is, wines that do not use eggs or milk in the fining process. Whilst not 'certified' vegan, I know for a fact, they are as described. Fantastic wines too.. It's getting rather onerous trying to explain the difference between wines and fruit wines, especially when you're attempting to do so with people who should know better... Link is still working. Ahh so it is.. Must've been a technical glitch.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topt Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> I'm glad some people got to read that article, apparently it has been pulled from the website.. A real sad state of affairs.. But not entirely surprised it was pulled. I'd also expect - unfortunately, because there is nothing defamatory about the article - the editor of the article to be hauled before whoever it is holds to account the press..This article speaks the truth and as long as the government perceives to drive the excise tax upwards, these ghastedly 'fruit wines' will continue to 1. Have a place in the market and 2. Continue to market themselves as 'wine'.I don't have an issue with point 1, I do have an issue with point 2 being marketed as a wine product i.e a product made 100% from grapes...Recently, I've discovered a new entrant to the market whose wines are vegan friendly, that is, wines that do not use eggs or milk in the fining process. Whilst not 'certified' vegan, I know for a fact, they are as described. Fantastic wines too..It's getting rather onerous trying to explain the difference between wines and fruit wines, especially when you're attempting to do so with people who should know better...Link is still working. Ahh so it is.. Must've been a technical glitch.. I am presuming this applies to the imported cost to the distributor (the 600 baht) and not to the retail price? -"Products above 600 baht were to be additionally taxed at 36 per cent of the last wholesale price, though budget wines below 600 baht were exempted" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 The "600 baht" threshold is based on the 'wholesale' price, that is, the price that the distributor sells the wine to their customer at. The threshold applies to both imported and domestic products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topt Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> The "600 baht" threshold is based on the 'wholesale' price, that is, the price that the distributor sells the wine to their customer at. The threshold applies to both imported and domestic products. Thanks Grant. Presume distributor is also importer (IE that is where the tax is applied for imported wines) and do you know what sort of margin/mark up they would normally make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantSmith Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 <script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script> Thanks Grant. Presume distributor is also importer (IE that is where the tax is applied for imported wines) and do you know what sort of margin/mark up they would normally make? In a lot of cases the importer is connected to the distributor but it's not strictly monogamous. In terms of margins, there's no "set" or agreed upon amount, but that being said, anywhere between 30-100% seems to be in the ball park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ameadi Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Better if you go on drinking beer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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