Montclair Wine

[GrantSmith]

xylophone,

Yeah it is an offence against the Alcohol Control Act to "advertise" or "promote the sale of" alcohol. This is why, if you look at the Tops website (to get home delivery for example) you won't see any labels or bottle shots of anything alcoholic. There was a restaurant here in Bangkok that was fined (460,000 Baht) earlier this week for showing - what looks like - a glass of beer on their menu.

Advertising or Promoting the sale of alcohol is a really grey area and seems selectively enforced.

Back to wine, very much looking forward to heading to Spain in a couple of weeks to get stuck into some Rioja and Rueba del Duero.

I hope you mean Ribera del Deuro - or is that a new classification

I envy you as it is a while since I had a decent bottle of either Ribera used to be pretty unknown in the UK but not sure about now.

Rueba's the 'second growth' of Ribera

Ribera's getting quite the name for itself (and consequently commanding quite the price), though not likely to happen in Thailand any time soon (though one lives in hope).

But like the vast majority of all new 'secondary' regions entering into the market (and I say that not in a bad way), Burgundy following from Bordeaux, Hunter Valley following from Barossa, Sonoma following Napa, Barolo following Tuscany etc. One can hope that Ribera can ride in on the back of Rioja.

Though that being said D.O Rioja's would largely be lost on the local market.

[topt]

xylophone,

Yeah it is an offence against the Alcohol Control Act to "advertise" or "promote the sale of" alcohol. This is why, if you look at the Tops website (to get home delivery for example) you won't see any labels or bottle shots of anything alcoholic. There was a restaurant here in Bangkok that was fined (460,000 Baht) earlier this week for showing - what looks like - a glass of beer on their menu.

Advertising or Promoting the sale of alcohol is a really grey area and seems selectively enforced.

Back to wine, very much looking forward to heading to Spain in a couple of weeks to get stuck into some Rioja and Rueba del Duero.

I hope you mean Ribera del Deuro - or is that a new classification

I envy you as it is a while since I had a decent bottle of either Ribera used to be pretty unknown in the UK but not sure about now.

Rueba's the 'second growth' of Ribera

Ribera's getting quite the name for itself (and consequently commanding quite the price), though not likely to happen in Thailand any time soon (though one lives in hope).

But like the vast majority of all new 'secondary' regions entering into the market (and I say that not in a bad way), Burgundy following from Bordeaux, Hunter Valley following from Barossa, Sonoma following Napa, Barolo following Tuscany etc. One can hope that Ribera can ride in on the back of Rioja.

Though that being said D.O Rioja's would largely be lost on the local market.

Just tried to Google Rueba and absolutely nothing comes up other than of course Rueda?

However it did bring up this article which may of interest to others wanting to know a bit more about Ribera from last year -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/wine/10784938/Move-over-Rioja-were-all-drinking-Ribera-del-Duero-wines-now.html

We're a long way from Mont Clair here

[xylophone]

xylophone,

Yeah it is an offence against the Alcohol Control Act to "advertise" or "promote the sale of" alcohol. This is why, if you look at the Tops website (to get home delivery for example) you won't see any labels or bottle shots of anything alcoholic. There was a restaurant here in Bangkok that was fined (460,000 Baht) earlier this week for showing - what looks like - a glass of beer on their menu.

Advertising or Promoting the sale of alcohol is a really grey area and seems selectively enforced.

Back to wine, very much looking forward to heading to Spain in a couple of weeks to get stuck into some Rioja and Rueba del Duero.

I hope you mean Ribera del Deuro - or is that a new classification

I envy you as it is a while since I had a decent bottle of either Ribera used to be pretty unknown in the UK but not sure about now.

Rueba's the 'second growth' of Ribera

Ribera's getting quite the name for itself (and consequently commanding quite the price), though not likely to happen in Thailand any time soon (though one lives in hope).

But like the vast majority of all new 'secondary' regions entering into the market (and I say that not in a bad way), Burgundy following from Bordeaux, Hunter Valley following from Barossa, Sonoma following Napa, Barolo following Tuscany etc. One can hope that Ribera can ride in on the back of Rioja.

Though that being said D.O Rioja's would largely be lost on the local market.

Just tried to Google Rueba and absolutely nothing comes up other than of course Rueda?

However it did bring up this article which may of interest to others wanting to know a bit more about Ribera from last year -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/wine/10784938/Move-over-Rioja-were-all-drinking-Ribera-del-Duero-wines-now.html

We're a long way from Mont Clair here

Yes we are a long way from Mont Clair here and I think we owe a vote of thanks to the Mods (LiK In particular) who have allowed us to expand the thread, especially as wine is such a huge subject.

Interesting article on the Ribera del Duero, topt (thank you) and I think it just about nails it............many, many years ago I did try this wine and really didn't think much of it because it was quite tannic and not really very approachable in my view, then many years later I tried another bottle (can't remember the producer, too long ago now) however it was much better, approachable, had a good nose and some character and depth to the wine, so obviously I changed my view, and good to know from the article it was because of better management and techniques and more careful use of oak.

In the past, many of Spain's better wines suffered from the overuse of oak, and in particular Rioja Gran Reserva and although they did have a big following at one time, modern tastes have changed and winemakers like Miguel Torres have led the way with more fruit driven wines with better use of oak (not to mention the use of non-native Spanish grapes such as Cabernet Sauvignon).

As for your trip to Spain GS, quite willing to carry your bags for you!!!!!!

[topt]

Yes we are a long way from Mont Clair here and I think we owe a vote of thanks to the Mods (LiK In particular) who have allowed us to expand the thread, especially as wine is such a huge subject.

Interesting article on the Ribera del Duero, topt (thank you) and I think it just about nails it............many, many years ago I did try this wine and really didn't think much of it because it was quite tannic and not really very approachable in my view, then many years later I tried another bottle (can't remember the producer, too long ago now) however it was much better, approachable, had a good nose and some character and depth to the wine, so obviously I changed my view, and good to know from the article it was because of better management and techniques and more careful use of oak.

In the past, many of Spain's better wines suffered from the overuse of oak, and in particular Rioja Gran Reserva and although they did have a big following at one time, modern tastes have changed and winemakers like Miguel Torres have led the way with more fruit driven wines with better use of oak (not to mention the use of non-native Spanish grapes such as Cabernet Sauvignon).

As for your trip to Spain GS, quite willing to carry your bags for you!!!!!!

Seconded (if allowed to comment at all on "moderation" ) Must admit to being a bit of a fan of the older style.

However you will need to get in the queue as bag carrier

[JetsetBkk]

Yes we are a long way from Mont Clair here and I think we owe a vote of thanks to the Mods (LiK In particular) who have allowed us to expand the thread, especially as wine is such a huge subject.

<snip>

Just ask LiK to delete "Montclair" from the title.

[LivinginKata]

Yes we are a long way from Mont Clair here and I think we owe a vote of thanks to the Mods (LiK In particular) who have allowed us to expand the thread, especially as wine is such a huge subject.

<snip>

Just ask LiK to delete "Montclair" from the title.

Let's just leave the topic name as is ...

[metisdead]

Without reading the whole thread , what is the best box wine in Thailand ? Still Mont clair ? 5 litre box is 960 baht at Makro.

Exclusive to Makro for the past couple of months: Mont Clair in an 8 liter box for 1,199 Baht.

[LivinginKata]

Innapropriate link - removed.

[GrantSmith]

Yes we are a long way from Mont Clair here and I think we owe a vote of thanks to the Mods (LiK In particular) who have allowed us to expand the thread, especially as wine is such a huge subject.

Interesting article on the Ribera del Duero, topt (thank you) and I think it just about nails it............many, many years ago I did try this wine and really didn't think much of it because it was quite tannic and not really very approachable in my view, then many years later I tried another bottle (can't remember the producer, too long ago now) however it was much better, approachable, had a good nose and some character and depth to the wine, so obviously I changed my view, and good to know from the article it was because of better management and techniques and more careful use of oak.

In the past, many of Spain's better wines suffered from the overuse of oak, and in particular Rioja Gran Reserva and although they did have a big following at one time, modern tastes have changed and winemakers like Miguel Torres have led the way with more fruit driven wines with better use of oak (not to mention the use of non-native Spanish grapes such as Cabernet Sauvignon).

As for your trip to Spain GS, quite willing to carry your bags for you!!!!!!

Seconded (if allowed to comment at all on "moderation" ) Must admit to being a bit of a fan of the older style.

However you will need to get in the queue as bag carrier

Yes this thread - albeit generally - far from the opening post has developed (for the most part) into a generally interesting thread. If you're keen on Montclair then more power to you. I won't begrudge anyone drinking it, so long as you're not trying to force your beliefs onto me.

As for Spain, judging by what I'm seeing (and I haven't even left yet) there's a lot to be excited about from one of the top 3 producers (by volume) in the world.

[xylophone]

Yes we are a long way from Mont Clair here and I think we owe a vote of thanks to the Mods (LiK In particular) who have allowed us to expand the thread, especially as wine is such a huge subject.

Interesting article on the Ribera del Duero, topt (thank you) and I think it just about nails it............many, many years ago I did try this wine and really didn't think much of it because it was quite tannic and not really very approachable in my view, then many years later I tried another bottle (can't remember the producer, too long ago now) however it was much better, approachable, had a good nose and some character and depth to the wine, so obviously I changed my view, and good to know from the article it was because of better management and techniques and more careful use of oak.

In the past, many of Spain's better wines suffered from the overuse of oak, and in particular Rioja Gran Reserva and although they did have a big following at one time, modern tastes have changed and winemakers like Miguel Torres have led the way with more fruit driven wines with better use of oak (not to mention the use of non-native Spanish grapes such as Cabernet Sauvignon).

As for your trip to Spain GS, quite willing to carry your bags for you!!!!!!

Seconded (if allowed to comment at all on "moderation" ) Must admit to being a bit of a fan of the older style.

However you will need to get in the queue as bag carrier

Quote topt: "Must admit to being a bit of a fan of the older style."

Yes me too at one time and I remember acquiring a case of 1964 Frederico Paternina Rioja Gran Riserva sometime in the late 70s and proceeded to drink the occasional bottle over the years and thought it was lovely. In the late 80s I was offered about $100 a bottle for the two remaining bottles I had which would have more than covered what I initially paid for the full case!!

My everyday drinking Rioja was Siglo Saco (you may remember the bottle which was covered in a sort of sack like material) as spending only one year in oak still left a nice fruity wine to enjoy. Have also enjoyed Marques de Caceres in the past and a few others probably too numerous to mention.

I think my tastes have changed somewhat now and when I tried some of the Miguel Torres Wines, my view of Spanish wines took on a new twist. Not that I wouldn't mind is the occasional bottle of Siglo if I could find it here?

[NigelKennedy]

Mont Clair now 1499 for 10 litre

Box....love it

[GrantSmith]

Hello Gents...

Have just returned from my sojourn to Ciudad Real & Madrid having attended the Spanish National Wine Fair (FENAVIN), spent 2 and a bit days going through the best of vino from Espana...

I have to say, I was in absolute heaven! Met with over 10 wineries tasted some 100 plus variations from Albarino to Verdejo and everything else in between. La Rioja (alta) and Ribera del Duero are king of the reds with some absolutely stunning Tempranillo/Tinto Fino/Graciano/Garnacha wines being produced.

If I have to choose favorites I would say that Casa Rojo (the overall package from design concept to wine structure) was my stand out. There's so much to like about these wines.

My other standout winery was Bodegas Medrano, solid, delicious moreish wines - fun fact, one of only two wineries to supply wines for FC Barcelona.

Notable mentions to Paco y Lola from Rias Biaxas who are producing a delightful couple of Albarino's and a very exciting Garnacha/Tempranillo blend.

Bodegas Bohedal also gets a notable mention for their use of alternative oak barrels, they're using a Romanian oak as opposed to traditional American and French oak. This romanian oak gives this Viura a tremendous buttery mouth feel that just lingers for the right amount.

Having chatted with the wineries about exports they're very keen on getting their wines into Thailand and they're also mindful of the exorbitant taxation regime that we have in Thailand - which they said was a factor for not pushing into the market earlier.

Overall I was thoroughly impressed with the Spanish wine scene, when we were out for dinner I was also impressed by the pricing of the wines (even in Michelin starred restaurants) the prices were decidedly reasonable (unless you were looking at 1st growth Bordeaux's but then again I wasn't in Bordeaux so I wasn't looking for them).

Having said that, I was lucky enough to be upgraded on my flight from Doha to Bangkok and was served copious amounts of 2009 Chateau Smith Haut Lafitte (Robert Parker gave this a perfect 100/100) and Pol Roger Champagne Rosé, which certainly rounded out the trip perfectly.

[LivinginKata]

^

Bah .... you are making us all jealous. Great reporting and images.

[laislica]

Well, not all of us perhaps.

We´ve been in the south east of Spain for almost a week now and will be here for six months more!

Oh how we suffer 555

Temperature was mid to high 20´s now dropped to low 20´s with a possibility of rain.

Almost perfect I´d say.

We actually get cold water out of the cold tap so we can add hot water from the hot tap.

What I really miss is the bird song.

We will have a visit from my daughter and family in June.

After that we plan a leisurely drive to Paris....

I won´t be the only driver so I can try some wine on the trip.

[topt]

^

Bah .... you are making us all jealous. Great reporting and images.

Seconded - funny I was just thinking about Albarino only the other day. If only it was available here at a reasonable price.......not that I have seen it anyhow.

[GrantSmith]

Well, not all of us perhaps.

We´ve been in the south east of Spain for almost a week now and will be here for six months more!

Oh how we suffer 555

Temperature was mid to high 20´s now dropped to low 20´s with a possibility of rain.

Almost perfect I´d say.

We actually get cold water out of the cold tap so we can add hot water from the hot tap.

What I really miss is the bird song.

We will have a visit from my daughter and family in June.

After that we plan a leisurely drive to Paris....

I won´t be the only driver so I can try some wine on the trip.

How was the heat wave last week! 39 last Tuesday.. In MAY! Thankfully the Cava was chilled, otherwise dehydration may have set in...

[GrantSmith]

^

Bah .... you are making us all jealous. Great reporting and images.

Seconded - funny I was just thinking about Albarino only the other day. If only it was available here at a reasonable price.......not that I have seen it anyhow.

The funny thing I found about Albariño, don't ever tell a Spanish wine maker you find similarities between it and Sauvignon Blanc!

As for price and availability here, whilst there's that horrible import tax and excise tax on wines from the EU, 'reasonable' will be continue to be a figment of our imagination.

That being said, the 'La Marimorena' (first on the left in the first pic I posted above) retails in El Cortes Inglés (Central would be the local equivalent) department store for about €15 retail (I think I paid about €18 in a restaurant for it).. Which is give or take between ฿550-600, add in taxes and shipping, and you're probably looking at a price here of ฿1500-1800 give or take..

'Reasonable' takes a totally different meaning here

[laislica]

Well, not all of us perhaps.

We´ve been in the south east of Spain for almost a week now and will be here for six months more!

Oh how we suffer 555

Temperature was mid to high 20´s now dropped to low 20´s with a possibility of rain.

Almost perfect I´d say.

We actually get cold water out of the cold tap so we can add hot water from the hot tap.

What I really miss is the bird song.

We will have a visit from my daughter and family in June.

After that we plan a leisurely drive to Paris....

I won´t be the only driver so I can try some wine on the trip.

How was the heat wave last week! 39 last Tuesday.. In MAY! Thankfully the Cava was chilled, otherwise dehydration may have set in...

True.

However, we arrived on the morning of Thursday the 14th and the weather was just right then.

We had some spare time so did a bit of sight seeing in Madrid which was very nice for Lek.

Everyone was talking about the heat wave though.

We were just lucky - again.

We will be in the Alicante area for the weekend and part of next week, staying with friends.

[GrantSmith]

True.

However, we arrived on the morning of Thursday the 14th and the weather was just right then.

We had some spare time so did a bit of sight seeing in Madrid which was very nice for Lek.

Everyone was talking about the heat wave though.

We were just lucky - again.

We will be in the Alicante area for the weekend and part of next week, staying with friends.

Oh yes you were very lucky, Tuesday was ridiculous, even by our Thai standards! The one thing I do love is even at 10pm it's only just getting dark, that and the late night dining mentality of the Spanish people.

Suffice to say after last weeks trip I will need to brush up on my Spanish.

[xylophone]

Great to have you back GS and many thanks for the reports.......... and you have prompted me to look at some websites with regard to travel to possibly Spain or France as I think a change is necessary, especially from paying through the nose for very average, to less than average wines here.

And I see it's time for your annual trip to Spain, Laislica.......... lucky bugger!!!!!!

Stay well and safe.

[GrantSmith]

Great to have you back GS and many thanks for the reports.......... and you have prompted me to look at some websites with regard to travel to possibly Spain or France as I think a change is necessary, especially from paying through the nose for very average, to less than average wines here.

And I see it's time for your annual trip to Spain, Laislica.......... lucky bugger!!!!!!

Stay well and safe.

Hey xylophone... Can't say I'm excited to back, all the wife and I wanted to do when we hit Swampy on Sunday was to say "&lt;deleted&gt; it let's go back for another week"... Life was simple, pace was great, food fantastic... But alas, reality bites...

France is next on the agenda, was hoping for an invite from UbiFrance to attend VinExpo in Bordeaux but alas probably not to be

[Bruzzzz]

Reliable climate, latent quality and Len Evans where the drivers of the early successes of the the Australian wine industry.

Now it's reputation drives the industry forward but unfortunately high Australian production costs and exorbitant Thai import tarrifs prevent Australian wine from being reasonablyaffordable in Thailand.

Sigh.....................

That and big, thick, rare, beef steaks are probably the only things I cannot afford in Thailand but there are compensations. All 42kg of her are awaiting for me in bed so I must go. Ha ha.

[GrantSmith]

Reliable climate, latent quality and Len Evans where the drivers of the early successes of the the Australian wine industry.

Now it's reputation drives the industry forward but unfortunately high Australian production costs and exorbitant Thai import tarrifs prevent Australian wine from being reasonablyaffordable in Thailand.

Sigh.....................

That and big, thick, rare, beef steaks are probably the only things I cannot afford in Thailand but there are compensations. All 42kg of her are awaiting for me in bed so I must go. Ha ha.

By exorbitant Thai import tariffs you mean the 'excise tax', right?

TAFTA has reduced Australian wine to 0% this year. Unfortunately that benefit was quickly eroded by the implementation of 2 new - albeit low - taxes this year, but it was across the board and not specifically targeting Australian wine..

[Bruzzzz]

Do you have any explanation why Australian wine retails for several times the price here. I estimate sea freight at about 5-10THB per bottle.

[GrantSmith]

Several explanations but two that are most common: Capitalism and The Excise Tax..

If someone is telling you it's because of the Import Tariff on Australian wine, they're either not doing it right or telling porky pies...

You'll find the cheaper shit that you find in Dan Murphy's et al back home is considerably more expensive here, but the mid-level ($20-30) market wines at home can be had here for around 50% more depending on the retailer...

As for sea freight, depends on how much the importer is bringing in...

[xylophone]

Changing the subject, but always grateful to read anything from GrantSmith ...............here is a link regarding the story about a 2000 yr old temple and cellar discovered in Tbilisi http://agenda.ge/news/36051/eng

Whilst it is not the oldest evidence of wine and winemaking ever found, what appears to be significant is the fact that there are some grape seeds in amongst the jars, and scientists may be able to pinpoint a bit of a history of what grapes were used in those days.

Winemaking appears to go back to around 6000 BC and evidence has been found in China and Georgia, with possibly Iran and then Greece following suit some time later.

It is a fascinating subject and one particular aspect of it has been the subject of much discussion between myself and another wine enthusiast, because he oft repeated the "fact" that the Shiraz grape originally came from Shiraz in Persia, when that has just about proven to be untrue. However, that's his story and he is sticking to it!!!

[GrantSmith]

Changing the subject, but always grateful to read anything from GrantSmith ...............here is a link regarding the story about a 2000 yr old temple and cellar discovered in Tbilisi http://agenda.ge/news/36051/eng

Whilst it is not the oldest evidence of wine and winemaking ever found, what appears to be significant is the fact that there are some grape seeds in amongst the jars, and scientists may be able to pinpoint a bit of a history of what grapes were used in those days.

Winemaking appears to go back to around 6000 BC and evidence has been found in China and Georgia, with possibly Iran and then Greece following suit some time later.

It is a fascinating subject and one particular aspect of it has been the subject of much discussion between myself and another wine enthusiast, because he oft repeated the "fact" that the Shiraz grape originally came from Shiraz in Persia, when that has just about proven to be untrue. However, that's his story and he is sticking to it!!!

The Shiraz thing, I find, is a bit of luck shrouded in good timing.. otherwise known as 'Marketing'...

Haven't delved too deep into it all but that's my first thought, I do remember being at a tasting last year in Khon Kaen (of all places) discussing this with a delightful young lady from Iran, whose name was or she was from Shiraz..

She too had heard the history and wasn't going to be told otherwise about Australian Shiraz...

I was doing some reading just the other day on the beginnings of wine and what grapes were used, must go back and have a look..

[xylophone]

Like you, I have done a lot of reading on the subject over the years, however as time has gone on, perhaps my memory has faded a little – – too much red wine or possibly my age?

I will attach some info regarding the DNA of the Syrah grape and it comes from two old French varieties, little heard of now. I've also seen many explanations of how Syrah became Shiraz in Australia and after some disbelief, I think it is quite easy to see a link from someone who would be trying to describe wines/vines/grapes in the plural (Syrahs) with a broad Australian accent (no offence intended) to Shiraz. Anyway, the Shiraz planted in Australia originally came from France and also from various clones of the same grape.

As for the Shiraz city/town in Persia, well it has been mentioned in various old documents that it was famous for its wine, however that wine was apparently a sweet white wine, so there is no doubt that wine was made in that place, but it wasn't made from the Syrah grape.

Fascinating subject and probably need to get back to a few books/Internet to brush up my knowledge, in the meantime here is the info I spoke about: –

"The true origin of Syrah has been shown through DNA testing to be a cross between two French varieties, Dureza and Mondeuse Blanche. Dureza is an obscure black variety and Mondeuse Blanche is a minor white variety, both of Rhône origin.

Previous myths of origin included the Middle East (Shiraz, Persia); Roman importation into Gaul; Syracuse (Sicily); and Syrah Island, Greece. Syrah has been known in the Rhône Valley of France for many centuries where it has recently had a resurgence of popularity. Only 3,300 acres remained in 1958, but by the mid-1990s, plantings in southern France had increased to more than 86,000 acres. It is classified as recommended in the Rhône Valley, Provence, Languedoc, and southwest France; it is used in the production of AOC wines such as those of Hermitage, Cotes-du-Rhône, and Coteaux du Languedoc.

The second largest plantings are in Australia where it is the leading red wine variety. Significant plantings also exist in South Africa and South America. Interest in the variety did not become widespread in California until the 1980s. It is now grown in a wide range of districts from the Central Valley and Sierra foothills to all but the coolest coastal districts.

Syrah is a very vigorous variety..........it has good blending qualities for deep color and not overly tannic, fruity aromas, producing popular blends such as Cabernet Sauvignon-Shiraz, an Australian conception, as well as traditional Rhône blends. Dessert wine potential is high, with Australian Port-type wines as good precedents".

Interestingly enough, the grape was very widely planted in Australia a few decades ago and produced a lot of very average wine, apart from a few people who realised its potential and made some great stuff (Max Schubert included), so the government encouraged producers to pull up some of the vines, which happened. However once the more "switched on" winemakers started to concentrate on this grape, there were some great wines produced and it has gone from strength to strength. That isn't to say that very poor to average wine can be made from this grape, because it can, especially in the more fertile soil, with younger vines.

[LivinginKata]

Another amazingly researched post. Well done xylophone.

[xylophone]

Another amazingly researched post. Well done xylophone.

Thanks LivinginKata..............much appreciated.