Saving Face - Thailands Biggest Problem

[thhMan]

I have always wondered why Thailands people has been able to get away with so much.

Driving the wrong way in Traffic

I rarely hear complaints from others as there is a lack of horns firing away. So with nobody giving a rats ass, this practice will continue and accidents caused by this practice will keep on happening.

So why doesnt anyone use their horns... Every vehicle has one... As my missus said to me once.... "Stop doing that. Its embarrassing" !

Ive also started to use the second lane down Sukhumvit, simply to avoid getting cut off, having idiots on bikes tearing out from a side street, without looking and so forth. My missus hates me doing that, because its not what the people do (and we still need to overtake slower cars), but the outcome is that we are in 90% less situations of danger, due to idiotic drivers. So does that mean to save face is to drive in the slowest lane where most of the idiotic situations occur?

When I was a team leader for a company with lots of Thai staff, I was asked to go easy on the staff, when they royally screwed up... I asked why... and they said it embarrasses them. My reply was... "But they continue to make the same idiotic mistake over and over and if I dont say something, it continues"

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes, simply because people save face and also safe face of others. Even at a school level.

One day, I will say something when I see a Thai with all his knuckles up his nose.... One day I will say something when I get shoved out of the way at 7-11, because someone is in a hurry, because he is double/triple parked, one day I will say something when I see parents letting their kids terrorize a shopping mall with their wails and screams...

As face saving is so engrained in society, it does explain why public officials get transferred instead of sacked... Why the word "mai be lai" is used more than a "honk" from a car horn and so on...

BUT.... Thats my opinion.... and it seems to explain a lot !

[muythai2013]

I do say something when people push in front of me, some look at me like I killed someone.

Others just have that blank stare, whatever the case they know full well when they are pushing in what they are doing.

It's in their mind, "this is wrong, he is in front of me, but i'm gonna push in anyway".

Knowing that I think its right to tell them politely to move back.

[Payboy]

I've noticed that saving ass takes precedence over saving face.

[ozsamurai]

Saving face and non aggressive behaviour is not only in Thailand, Japan has the same mentality for one. The difference is that too many Thai's are not humble in their pusuit of what they beleive is rightfully theirs, they will take till you bleed if given the chance. Small things, big deals are all on the same playing field, whether it be helping themselves to fruit from your trees or ripping you off for millions of Baht, its all the same. That is why things will never change. Should they?

Oz

[TimTang]

Saving Face is a nice way of saying; "I'm failing to FACE up to my RESPONSIBILITIES". I think it's a pathetic way of getting out of a tight situation. I don't give a $hite about cultural differences, that's REALLY what it amounts to.

[Phronesis]

Most of your post is not describing the concept of face but rather that of Ow Dair Jai.

[TimTang]

You say saving face is a "non aggressive behavior"? So when a bus driver crashes a bus because he's drunk or driving erratically and many people die, then he flees the scene because he' "SAVING FACE" That's acceptable behavior?

[David48]

Saving Face ... Thailand's Biggest Asset.

All comes down to a matter of perspective.

Not that I particularity agree with either proposition but I do think you have a naïve concept of the principle outlined in your OP.

.

[soi41]

@ the OP. If you are going to enjoy your time here, you have to learn to chill out !

If you can't do that, "they" win.

[swissie]

Imagine this: All governments in Europe declare, that all retirees have to live in a foreign country starting tomorrow. Let's call this country "Xanadu".

In "Xanadu" the "not losing face syndrome" rules daily life. (Including cheating, not telling the truth if it's inconveniant, etc.etc.etc.) AND: The climate corresponds to the average temperature and humidity of a finnish-sauna for 8 months out of the year.

Undoubtedly, a wave of protest and outrage would swamp over Europe = "How can you send us to a Hel*hole like this! ....... "I want to talk to my lawyer" etc etc.

It's good to know, that Farangs living already in "Xanadu" have appearantly no problem with the "not loosing face syndrome" and everything that comes with it.

Of course the statement ......... "they are all just in Xanadu for the cheap pu**y and the cheap booze", must be dismissed as a vicious rumor anyway.

Cheers.

[transam]

Bought a couple of bits in Tesco today, put my stuff on the counter, a lady behind put all her stuff amongst my stuff on the counter, it confused the teller, and me. I had to chuck her stuff out the way.

Yeh it is a confusing conundrum.

[thhMan]

@ the OP. If you are going to enjoy your time here, you have to learn to chill out !

If you can't do that, "they" win.

I dont want to win.... Its not about winning or losing... Its all about the concept of saving face... Its not a public thing but a private thing... Being humble is a sign of intelligence and understand, but its seems in Thailand that being humble is defeat...

Which then makes all opinions correct as nobody would bow down and admit that someone else's opinion maybe correct... So I believe that would hold true with traffic rules, Government policies and life in general in Thailand.

Safe Face is selfish!

[thhMan]

@ the OP. If you are going to enjoy your time here, you have to learn to chill out !

If you can't do that, "they" win.

I live here long time...

Actually, I have 2 Thai kids and I would rather they tell me the truth instead of telling me some BS to save face... Sure they are only 4 and 8, but Dad and now Mom have no issue making a small scene in Tesco when they behave like little buggers... And when we do (very rarely these days), we do get approving smiles from the tourists and Thai's

EDIT...

Its weird when moms say that our kids are well behaved... When this happens (and it happens frequently), I keep thinking to myself, that these parents are to busy thinking about what other people think about them and just let their monsters go out of control.... Stop saving face, discipline your kids at the time an incident occurs and perhaps they will grow up to be respected community members instead of taxi drivers or jet ski operators. Its a vicious circle.... Be humble once in a while

Edited May 20, 2013 by thhMan

[Paangjang]

Its part of the culture and all we can do is learn to accept it or get pissed off with it every day forever. However i do feel it costs a lot of people their lives. People get embarrassed too easily here and hurt eachother quite easily too. Think it's down to lack of self confidence. Loosing face (getting embarressed) seems to scare them, then they get angry in order to defend themselves. Then people get hurt, shot etc...

[Nuna]

I do agree about idiot drivers around this country but it's nothing to do with saving face because Thais tend to avoid argument if possible. The problems here are lack of discipline and law enforcement.

"But they continue to make the same idiotic mistake over and over and if I dont say something, it continues"

Why don't you talk privately with them? Talking privately cannot solve the problem? It's nothing about saving face but it's embarrassing to all people not only Thais when their mistakes are exposed to crowd. Why 15 years old bullied american girl committed suicide if she didn't care what people think after she was exposed having been raped then taped by four boys? It was not even her fault. In fact, she'd lived her life normally 1 year before the tape was posted on Youtube. She could stand being raped, not the tape. Why?

"it does explain why public officials get transferred instead of sacked...

Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process.

[transam]

I do agree about idiot drivers around this country but it's nothing to do with saving face because Thais tend to avoid argument if possible. The problems here are lack of discipline and law enforcement.

"But they continue to make the same idiotic mistake over and over and if I dont say something, it continues"

Why don't you talk privately with them? Talking privately cannot solve the problem? It's nothing about saving face but it's embarrassing to all people not only Thais when their mistakes are exposed to crowd. Why 15 years old bullied american girl committed suicide if she didn't care what people think after she was exposed having been raped then taped by four boys? It was not even her fault. In fact, she'd lived her life normally 1 year before the tape was posted on Youtube. She could stand being raped, not the tape. Why?

"it does explain why public officials get transferred instead of sacked...

Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process.

Your wrong about the driving and face. .

[arthurwait]

A couple of weeks ago in the bank it was my number next by the time they got to it they had let 7 people push in which took over 20 minutes. When they finally decided to show some manners to the 20 people who had the manners to queue I stood up cheered and shouted ' hallelujah praise the lord' which recieved appaulse from some and laughter from others waiting. Unfortunately the bank staff didn't look too happy.

It must have worked as next time I visited the same bank they only let 4 people push in.

[Beetlejuice]

Considering some of the ugly mooshes on some Thai visa members, most of their faces are not worth saving.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[Berkshire]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

[anon210]

I do agree about idiot drivers around this country but it's nothing to do with saving face because Thais tend to avoid argument if possible. The problems here are lack of discipline and law enforcement.

"But they continue to make the same idiotic mistake over and over and if I dont say something, it continues"

Why don't you talk privately with them? Talking privately cannot solve the problem? It's nothing about saving face but it's embarrassing to all people not only Thais when their mistakes are exposed to crowd. Why 15 years old bullied american girl committed suicide if she didn't care what people think after she was exposed having been raped then taped by four boys? It was not even her fault. In fact, she'd lived her life normally 1 year before the tape was posted on Youtube. She could stand being raped, not the tape. Why?

"it does explain why public officials get transferred instead of sacked...

Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process.

Your wrong about the driving and face. .

Correct. Thai law prescribes to drive in the leftmost lane, unless you are overtaking another vehicle. So, it is the OP who currently is mistaking "face" for "law-abiding" behavior. This being said, I avoid the left lane on Sukhumvit, not because of drivers coming out, but because of the numerous cars parked in that lane.

[varun]

I agree, and saving face leads to lack of accountability.

[kevvy]

i have a friend (thai) who is going to marry because his best friends wife introduced him to her sister , took her for about a month and then the father told him he will have to marry her ,So he is going to do that , does he love her ...no ..

save face yes

[PalMan]

Very common here upcountry for the "punishment" for sleeping with a young girl is for the man to marry her, and often the girl doesn't have much to say about it.

Sometimes even when the event would be called a rape by western standards.

Just touching or kissing can lead to the man's family having to pay the girl's. Often the local BiB are called in to help the families negotiate the penalty.

If the boy's from a wealthy family they can just pay a financial settlement without them having to get married - imagine the girl's relief.

Still I wouldn't lay the blame for all these cultural differences just on "face", that's a bit simplistic isn't it.

[thhMan]

Very common here upcountry for the "punishment" for sleeping with a young girl is for the man to marry her, and often the girl doesn't have much to say about it.

Sometimes even when the event would be called a rape by western standards.

Just touching or kissing can lead to the man's family having to pay the girl's. Often the local BiB are called in to help the families negotiate the penalty.

If the boy's from a wealthy family they can just pay a financial settlement without them having to get married - imagine the girl's relief.

Still I wouldn't lay the blame for all these cultural differences just on "face", that's a bit simplistic isn't it.

Yes it is simplistic...

But it explains a lot ....

Have you ever made a judgement called that was against what you thought was right, just to avoid embarrassment either to yourself or others?

I do all the time when my kids say that I am a good papa.... when I know deep down... I am an excellent papa (Its a poor attempt at humor)

Edited May 20, 2013 by thhMan

[benalibina]

Saving face; no awareness - no thinking - no selfreflection - no empathy - ignorance - no knowledge - no confrontation - no correction -selfinterest - no accountability.

Selfdestruction is the consequence.

Mai pen rai !

The ones around let it all happen. SELFINTEREST !!!!!!!!!

Its all in the family !!

If you can't beat them, join them.

[PalMan]

My mum grew up in the German countryside, and says bourgeois culture there was just the same, nothing more important than what the neighbors thought.

McMansions, fancy cars, not exactly immune to the phenomenon in the West are we?

[p_brownstone]

"it does explain why public officials get transferred instead of sacked...

Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process.

Sorry, may not have been "Transam" who Posted

"Official get transferred out of the area until the case is proved. If he stay in the position, his influence might affect the process."

but I can't Edit the Thread.

Anyway - it's nonsense to suggest that simply transferring someone to another Area will negate his influence there; such influence is not confined or personal to one individual, it permeates the whole infrastructure of the local Organisation and will persist and protect him even after he has been transferred to an "inactive" Position.

More importantly however, and to address the main Topic, I really feel that this concept of "Face" - seen by "Farang" as being a specific to Thais - is also total nonsense.

No-one likes to be embarrassed or made to look foolish - English, American, German, Thai - whoever, if you are shamed in public then the feeling and reaction will be similar.

To my mind there is absolutely no difference in the reaction - regardless of nationality.

Patrick

[mauGR1]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Well spotted, in fact, it works both ways.

[Berkshire]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Well spotted, in fact, it works both ways.

Thanks for noticing. The whole philosophy of "saving face" is really not as nefarious as many make it out to be. Simply put, it just means that one should avoid publicly offending or humiliating another unnecessarily. Wouldn't it be great if we all lived our lives like that? Well, we actually do....or we try. Back in the states, as a manager, we know that we should never chew-out our subordinates in front of others. And why not? So they don't lose face. I would think that this is a common sense sort of thing the world over.

[Baerboxer]

My mum grew up in the German countryside, and says bourgeois culture there was just the same, nothing more important than what the neighbors thought.

McMansions, fancy cars, not exactly immune to the phenomenon in the West are we?

You are so right. Britain in the 70s and 80s - remember the expression "keeping up with the Jones's".