Saving Face - Thailands Biggest Problem

[thhMan]

This is an interesting thread and it hits home. I have felt the same way the OP has and done similar things, my wife has take exception to some of them even though she agrees with my reasoning. After thinking it over I have to agree with her, I have moved here to live so I must accept the thai ways, right or wrong I need to accept what happens. That little phrase that comes out so often, "doesnt matter" is spot on, just because some arse hole lacks any patience or courtesy doesnt mean I have to react to them. I still flip the bird at some of them when I am by myself but nowhere near as much as I used to, I am even thinking of speaking to the local monks about accepting this life better. I love it here, its laid back compared to Australia and I really need to learn to slow down and move at thai pace, not aussie. My wife is a lot more important to me than those idiots that aggravate me so I am seriously trying to learn to be more like the locals(without all their bad habits) and hopefully by not getting too worked up over things I will relax more and not have any stress in my life therefore enjoying it more. Sounds like a lot of bullsh*t but it is the way I have started to think lately, well most of the time anyway but I will still come in here and have a go because most of you bastards arent thai,hahahahahahaha

I totally agree... and do it the Thai way.. but which one... the one that has got them this far with their culture, art, magnificent buildings, amazing family unity or the latest incarnation of distrust, greed, illogical thoughts, injustice and so on....

[rubberduck]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce

right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes, simply because

people save face and also safe face of others. Even at a school level.

that's just true ! they develop completely in the wrong direction.

[ABCer]

"Saving Face" = Not much of a face to save.

"Thai Culture" = Not much of a culture to show.

"Thainess" = Not much of a national identity.

"Thai Family" = Not much of a family.

"Thai man" = Not much of a man.

"Thai woman" = Not much of a woman.

"Thai Crackdown" = Not much of a crackdown.

"Thai Laws" = Not much of a Law Rule.

"Thai Education" = Not much of an Education.

... you may continue this list...

YET... I do like Thailand; I am NOT a Thai Hater; I am a Cultured and Educated person; I have a National Pride of my own; I do believe in Family; I think I am a Man; I do live with a Woman; I obide by the Laws...

and I would like to see a crackdown on stupid, baseless "Thainess" where the common "Humanity" should be the Norm.

It is high time for Thais to join the Humanity and stop dreaming of their exclusivity.

Stop being objective

Brilliant!

I do take this as a compliment...

Could you elaborate a bit, please, so that I can mark "Like it"?

...or better still - why not add to the list?...

something like "Thai Army" =

"Thai Money" =

"Thai Hi-Tech" =

"Thai Safety First" =

Edited May 22, 2013 by ABCer

[Berkshire]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

What in your opinion would British people do or say if they see a Thai with a totally skanked out hooker?

Wasn't there a thread just recently, asking whether all western tourist think that all Thai girls with farang guys are hookers? You get the evil eye. The shaking of the head. The look of disgust. That sort of thing.

[rubberduck]

"Saving Face" = Not much of a face to save.

"Thai Culture" = Not much of a culture to show.

"Thainess" = Not much of a national identity.

"Thai Family" = Not much of a family.

"Thai man" = Not much of a man.

"Thai woman" = Not much of a woman.

"Thai Crackdown" = Not much of a crackdown.

"Thai Laws" = Not much of a Law Rule.

"Thai Education" = Not much of an Education.

... you may continue this list...

YET... I do like Thailand; I am NOT a Thai Hater; I am a Cultured and Educated person; I have a National Pride of my own; I do believe in Family; I think I am a Man; I do live with a Woman; I obide by the Laws...

and I would like to see a crackdown on stupid, baseless "Thainess" where the common "Humanity" should be the Norm.

It is high time for Thais to join the Humanity and stop dreaming of their exclusivity.

This is just simply true, hahaha.

[rideswings]

Saving Face in traffic reminds me of this great movie clip... maybe its not just a Thai thing...

[samran]

Most of your post is not describing the concept of face but rather that of Ow Dair Jai.

Spot on.

[louse1953]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Well spotted, in fact, it works both ways.

Thanks for noticing. The whole philosophy of "saving face" is really not as nefarious as many make it out to be. Simply put, it just means that one should avoid publicly offending or humiliating another unnecessarily. Wouldn't it be great if we all lived our lives like that? Well, we actually do....or we try. Back in the states, as a manager, we know that we should never chew-out our subordinates in front of others. And why not? So they don't lose face. I would think that this is a common sense sort of thing the world over.

But you still get chewed out in private,not so here.

[sausageandmash]

So (and correct me if I am wrong), the more people that dont enforce right from wrong, the more backwards this country goes,

Well I can't agree with this. This is Thailand and it is run by Thais, albeit Chinese Thais. This is obviously the way they like it. The economy seems to be OK. So we are not going backwards?

The west is a guilt focused society, Asia is shame focused society. So being reassigned as a government official is shame enough.

My recent thinking about westerners complaining about things being wrong in Thailand is more reflection on the demographics of the westerners now coming here and not that things in Thailand and becoming increasingly wrong or bad.

Congratulations. You have just won the "naive comment of the day" award. The point that you are missing is that a lot of Thais themselves complain about Thailand. So no, it's not the way they like it.

There are some great things about Thailand, just as there are in the West, but basic things like good customer service and not having the guts to admit you are wrong are very childish failings.

As far as the economy goes, the Baht is spiralling out of control and the bubble will burst in the next 2 years. This is a great time to be sending money back to the West.

[sausageandmash]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

What in your opinion would British people do or say if they see a Thai with a totally skanked out hooker?

Probably point and laugh. It's much more fun!

[norrona]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

What in your opinion would British people do or say if they see a Thai with a totally skanked out hooker?

Wasn't there a thread just recently, asking whether all western tourist think that all Thai girls with farang guys are hookers? You get the evil eye. The shaking of the head. The look of disgust. That sort of thing.

total paranoia there but in general if it is a skanky girl from wherever for sure you are going to get looks and snide comments ....however if that skanky girl and her man are spending money or paying for a service then they will be treated as a normal couple until they leave when the snide comments or gossiping will then start in Thailand or farang land so sorry your original comparison is null and void.....try again

[norrona]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

What in your opinion would British people do or say if they see a Thai with a totally skanked out hooker?

Probably point and laugh. It's much more fun!

They do that in Thailand as well, not blatantly but they do it....

[norrona]

Saving face in Thailand--When Thais see a farang guy with a totally skanked-out hooker and pretends like they are just a normal couple. Just so the farang guy won't lose face. That's pretty decent of them, don't you think?

Well spotted, in fact, it works both ways.

Thanks for noticing. The whole philosophy of "saving face" is really not as nefarious as many make it out to be. Simply put, it just means that one should avoid publicly offending or humiliating another unnecessarily. Wouldn't it be great if we all lived our lives like that? Well, we actually do....or we try. Back in the states, as a manager, we know that we should never chew-out our subordinates in front of others. And why not? So they don't lose face. I would think that this is a common sense sort of thing the world over.

But you still get chewed out in private,not so here.

in Thailand whatever isn't said to your face will most certainly be discussed behind your back same as in farang land....no difference at all!

[transam]

Just had a bloke come around my outside on a scooter and cut in front of me to turn left. I slammed on the anchors and hooted, he stopped and looked at me, l gave him a few gestures and some ''foreign'' language. he did not like it one bit, lost face.

[bobthomas]

"Saving Face" = Not much of a face to save.

"Thai Culture" = Not much of a culture to show.

"Thainess" = Not much of a national identity.

"Thai Family" = Not much of a family.

"Thai man" = Not much of a man.

"Thai woman" = Not much of a woman.

"Thai Crackdown" = Not much of a crackdown.

"Thai Laws" = Not much of a Law Rule.

"Thai Education" = Not much of an Education.

... you may continue this list...

YET... I do like Thailand; I am NOT a Thai Hater; I am a Cultured and Educated person; I have a National Pride of my own; I do believe in Family; I think I am a Man; I do live with a Woman; I obide by the Laws...

and I would like to see a crackdown on stupid, baseless "Thainess" where the common "Humanity" should be the Norm.

It is high time for Thais to join the Humanity and stop dreaming of their exclusivity.

This is just simply true, hahaha.

A very superficial analysis that conveniently excludes the realities within the Thai world.. I think we expect more from a western educated person. Or was Prathom 5, as far as you got?

[bobthomas]

Thai Culture

A comprehensive book about Thai culture would probably be over a thousand pages. That’s a lot of rules!!!

Knowing when there is a necessity to adhere to these “rules” and when you can ignore them is the key.

But expecting all Thai people to follow all the rules all the time is a sure recipe for disaster.

Cultures in which emotions are suppressed by the “Indigenous cultural paradigm” must have some way of letting off steam, maybe that’s cutting to the front of the que, or maybe it’s getting drunk on Songkran and acting out of context.

If everyone followed the “rules of the road” while driving, you would have a line of cars and bikes 30 K long in and near every large town and city within the Kingdom.

From a structural standpoint, a system only functions if there is some flexibility found in that static behavioral code. So you drive on the sidewalk with your motorbike, and you drive in any way that facilitates efficiency, and you “allow” others to do so without having a mental breakdown and forcing the western paradigm upon the Indigenous, only then are you following the necessary and functional realities of the “system”.

By imposing a western paradigm upon the Indigenous- you do everyone a disservice.

One day, this place will be like the west.

Save your complaining for that day

Cheers all,

Uncle Bob

PS What I see written on these websites often sounds like culture shock- it’s cool, because it makes you question things- but when it turns to permanent culture shock? Then it is time to move up country or somewhere else completely.

[MAJIC]

My mum grew up in the German countryside, and says bourgeois culture there was just the same, nothing more important than what the neighbors thought.

McMansions, fancy cars, not exactly immune to the phenomenon in the West are we?

You are so right. Britain in the 70s and 80s - remember the expression "keeping up with the Jones's".

As I recall "Keeping up with the Jones's" was more about,showing you have more material possessions than the people next door.Not quite the same as saving face, and of course you didn't have to play their silly game. Some people can be very rich,but considering how they gained their fortune,does nothing at all for their social standing,especially illegal gains,such as Drug Barons.

[MAJIC]

IMO, Face is nothing more than a Countries mass agreement to disguise what is unpalable,i.e The Truth!

[MAJIC]

Saving Face is a myth, In any other Shape or form in another Country is called Embarasment, you have been caught out and unable to except responsibility for your own actions.

A kind of ready made get out clause!

[benalibina]

Saving Face is a myth, In any other Shape or form in another Country is called Embarasment, you have been caught out and unable to except responsibility for your own actions.

A kind of ready made get out clause!

Saving face is, in my opinion, indeed lack of accountability, primarily towards 1self. Therefore others can pay the price for it. Driving on the road in thailand , there is no saving face. Just lack of knowledge and awareness. Problem with saving face comes really into place in close relationships where 1 cannot directly confront someone with the truth, as how 1 sees it. In our societies this can than give room for discussion and understand 1s point of view. For that is thinking and empathy required. Logic ?? Many, especially the less educated, do not like to think. They like sabai sabai. Maj shop kit, pod hoea. So nothing changes, or only very very slow. A total and quick reform of the educationsystem is the only hope and a dimishing respect for the conservative elders and influentuals in society who are only busy in keeping it as it is. Selfinterest !!

[Trembly]

Too many farang apparently don't even understand what the concept of saving face is, judging by the first page.

[bobthomas]

It's kind of hard to take one Thai cultural trait and define it as static or absolute. We probably have to consider the context, participants and setting before we determine how the role of “face” will be played.

In a country where appearance often trumps substance, face serves as currency. It can be an indicator of wealth, power or status in situations where neither may actually exist. In a country with limited opportunities, sometimes it’s fun to exaggerate in order to make people feel good. So keeping in touch with that, often everyone smiles and agrees even when they know someone is clearly lying, bragging, being obnoxious, lewd, loud etc. Only when that person leaves will the rest of the cohorts openly denounce that person. Everyone saves face.

And even though faces can be fluid, in a situation where a subordinate is trying to gain access to a higher social cast, any out of context acts might cause him to lose his face…and his place among the financial and social opportunities that his cohorts may have offered in the future.

Face is expensive in the Thai world. Perhaps that is why it is guarded with such intent.

If we apply “face” to the highway we have to consider “space”. A substance Thais often consider to be shared by everybody. Westerners are territorial, even about space owned by the highway dept.!!! Blowing the horn like a mad dog is offensive to the Thai nervous system. It’s conditioning.

In a country where social interactions are often handled quietly, a loud horn can be viewed as an attack. Just try it sometime. Scream your head off at a Thai in public. If you’re lucky they will freeze- if you are not, maybe all that pent up frustration of having to save face in the most intolerable of situations will come out, and your punishment will far outweigh your crime.

[maxme]

It's kind of hard to take one Thai cultural trait and define it as static or absolute. We probably have to consider the context, participants and setting before we determine how the role of “face” will be played.

In a country where appearance often trumps substance, face serves as currency. It can be an indicator of wealth, power or status in situations where neither may actually exist. In a country with limited opportunities, sometimes it’s fun to exaggerate in order to make people feel good. So keeping in touch with that, often everyone smiles and agrees even when they know someone is clearly lying, bragging, being obnoxious, lewd, loud etc. Only when that person leaves will the rest of the cohorts openly denounce that person. Everyone saves face.

And even though faces can be fluid, in a situation where a subordinate is trying to gain access to a higher social cast, any out of context acts might cause him to lose his face…and his place among the financial and social opportunities that his cohorts may have offered in the future.

Face is expensive in the Thai world. Perhaps that is why it is guarded with such intent.

If we apply “face” to the highway we have to consider “space”. A substance Thais often consider to be shared by everybody. Westerners are territorial, even about space owned by the highway dept.!!! Blowing the horn like a mad dog is offensive to the Thai nervous system. It’s conditioning.

In a country where social interactions are often handled quietly, a loud horn can be viewed as an attack. Just try it sometime. Scream your head off at a Thai in public. If you’re lucky they will freeze- if you are not, maybe all that pent up frustration of having to save face in the most intolerable of situations will come out, and your punishment will far outweigh your crime.

[MAJIC]

Saving Face is a myth, In any other Shape or form in another Country is called Embarasment, you have been caught out and unable to except responsibility for your own actions.

A kind of ready made get out clause!

Saving face is, in my opinion, indeed lack of accountability, primarily towards 1self. Therefore others can pay the price for it. Driving on the road in thailand , there is no saving face. Just lack of knowledge and awareness. Problem with saving face comes really into place in close relationships where 1 cannot directly confront someone with the truth, as how 1 sees it. In our societies this can than give room for discussion and understand 1s point of view. For that is thinking and empathy required. Logic ?? Many, especially the less educated, do not like to think. They like sabai sabai. Maj shop kit, pod hoea. So nothing changes, or only very very slow. A total and quick reform of the educationsystem is the only hope and a dimishing respect for the conservative elders and influentuals in society who are only busy in keeping it as it is. Selfinterest !!

"Driving on the road in Thailand,there is no saving face"

I agree with most of your post,except that driving on the road does also count ,as face dictates,not having to admit a fault,it suits the face issue,to blame the other driver.

Edited May 22, 2013 by MAJIC

[benalibina]

Driven many years there in a northern city and up and down to phuket. Its just lack of knowledge of traffic rules, lack to care about it as well. Many just not interested, selfcentered ?. Seen pick ups loaded full of fruit on the fast lane, driving 40 km/hour on the highway. U turn in 10 kms maybe ? Busses driving on fast lane as well. No face, sheer ignorance because lack of knowledge and correction by fellow thais. The very odd gets maybe angry. No different than in our societies. Been chased onces though because blew the horn extensively. U-turn saved me ! 55555

[mauGR1]

Good thread.

Imho, the saving face philosophy has worked very well for centuries, but it seems not to be coping very well with the abrupt change in life style brought by the technology in the last 40/50 years.

The advent of internet is destroying the old culture at a very fast pace too..the younger generations seem to have nothing to do with old traditions.

Especially on the highways, saving face has not much meaning, as the priority consists in saving your arse.

...And, yes, blowing the horn loud and repeatedly can be perceived like a physical attack, and dealt with,

[benalibina]

Saving face; no awareness - no thinking - no selfreflection - no empathy - ignorance - no knowledge - no confrontation - no correction -selfinterest - no accountability.Selfdestruction is the consequence.Mai pen rai !The ones around let it all happen. SELFINTEREST !!!!!!!!!Its all in the family !!If you can't beat them, join them.

Sorry is the hardest word to say for the facesavers !

We all make mistakes and when we have hurt somebody with it, and realise that, it should be easy to say SORRY !!!!!!!

[thhMan]

Saving face; no awareness - no thinking - no selfreflection - no empathy - ignorance - no knowledge - no confrontation - no correction -selfinterest - no accountability.Selfdestruction is the consequence.Mai pen rai !The ones around let it all happen. SELFINTEREST !!!!!!!!!Its all in the family !!If you can't beat them, join them.

Sorry is the hardest word to say for the facesavers !

We all make mistakes and when we have hurt somebody with it, and realise that, it should be easy to say SORRY !!!!!!!

Sorry is hard for people to say in any country.

But you have to have a sense of right and wrong plus morality/ethics to say sorry.

[farang000999]

Thailand's biggest problem is that lack of wealth distribution.

Do you really think all the silliness you see is because of culture tidbits and not because of the lack of education and equal opportunity?

[Berkshire]

Thailand's biggest problem is that lack of wealth distribution.

Do you really think all the silliness you see is because of culture tidbits and not because of the lack of education and equal opportunity?

Oooh, that term..."wealth distribution." You mention that in America and people will think you're a communist.