Is Wp Needed For Online Work?

[MKTL]

I'm married to my Thai hubby and we want to do a website on hotel bookings etc in Thailand. When it's my husbands site and I simply help him, would I then need a WP? I'm on a marriage visa and knows that I'm allowed to help my husband with his business but don't know about online work? Also would their be any benefits of starting a company in Europe and do the site through that company vs starting a company in Thailand and do the site through there? Many thanks in advance!

[Tywais]

Will move this to the Visa/Work Permit forum.

[Mario2008]

In Thailand you are not allowed to help your husband in his business, online or not, without a work permit.

[MKTL]

Okay thanks:-) If I do the site through a European company (on paper I would be based in Europe and because the work would be online I could be sitting anywhere in the world) would this be okay? Thanks

[ubonjoe]

Work is work while you are in Thailand it does not matter if you are working online or otherwise.

[Arkady]

Okay thanks:-) If I do the site through a European company (on paper I would be based in Europe and because the work would be online I could be sitting anywhere in the world) would this be okay? Thanks

It would not be OK according to the 2008 Working of Aliens Act which stipulates that any work needs a work permit except for some specified exemptions like working for embassies or multilateral agencies or doing urgent emergency work on a temporary basis. The definition of work even makes clear that unpaid work needs a work permit. There is no mention of exemptions for helping a Thai spouse in his or her business. The wording of the Act referring to work permits for aliens to work in the Kingdom clearly implies that it is the physical location of the worker that counts, not the location of the employer, hosting service or anything else. I attach a translation of the Act for your perusal.

Having said all that, and not wishing in any way to contravene forum rules by encouraging you to break the law, I would suggest that, if you are working on a computer at home, it would be extremely difficult for Labour Ministry investigators to conclude that you were working at the computer, rather than updating your facebook page or sending emails to your friends. It would equally be a challenge for them to determine whether it was your fingers gliding over the keyboard that created business related web pages or your husband's. Get the drift?

You could apply for a work permit and many small businesses do successfully but you might find it somewhat burdensome for the business. You don't need one for visa purposes because you can get extensions to your NON O based on marriage without one. If you are going to be sitting in an office and contacting customers or working in any type of exposed role, you should certainly consider applying for a WP.

Finally you should look into applying for Thai citizenship. As the wife of a Thai national you can apply under Section 9 of the Nationality Act which provides easier terms than for foreign men with Thai wives, who until 2008 weren't allowed to apply at all without obtaining permanent residence first. Thai law is still chauvinistic and expects foreign wives to stay home as housewives and mothers. Thus, unlike male applicants, you don't need a work permit or tax receipts to apply. They will look at your husband's income and assets instead to determine if he is able to support a foreign wife but the requirements are fairly easy - income of only Bt 15,000 a month I think. You need to have been legally married for 3 years, or only 1 year, if you and your husband have produced a new Thai citizen. You must have a yellow tabien baan but this could be the day before your application for citizenship. No need to be totally fluent in Thai, as your husband will attend all the interviews with you, but you should be able to handle basic conversation and not just sit like a wall flower at the meetings. You won't be asked to read or write or sing the National or Royal Anthems. The fees are minimal and it clears up all problems of being a foreigner in Thailand once and for all. It takes several years but one thing is sure: if you don't apply, you will never get it. If interested, consult the relevant threads on TV which contain a mine of information on the topic.

Working of Aliens Act 2008.pdf

Edited May 23, 2013 by Arkady

[MKTL]

@Arkady Thank you so much for your reply! Very helpful and I appreciate it:-) regarding citizenship I would meet all the requirements. Been married more than 3 years, we have a 2,5 yr old daughter together, already have a yellow book and can get by in Thai. I have actually never really thought about it before as it was never a problem for us and at the moment I don't want to give up my Danish citizenship but it is something to consider for the future:-) again thank you!

[KonKorat]

is selling things on online auctions such as ebay etc considered as working?

[scorecard]

@Arkady Thank you so much for your reply! Very helpful and I appreciate it:-) regarding citizenship I would meet all the requirements. Been married more than 3 years, we have a 2,5 yr old daughter together, already have a yellow book and can get by in Thai. I have actually never really thought about it before as it was never a problem for us and at the moment I don't want to give up my Danish citizenship but it is something to consider for the future:-) again thank you!

Perhaps you may NOT need to give your Danish citizenship. Thailand allows dual citizenship with many countries but I don't know if this includes Denmark. Others on this forum may perhaps have a complete list of the countries with which Thailand allows dual citizenship.

On the other hand perhaps Denmark doesn't allow dual citizenship? Worth some checking, and also checking whether citizenship can be regained if needed.

In regard to the work permit, it's often not that difficult to obtain. But be aware that if caught working without a work permit then deportation is possible.

You mention that you have a young toddler. Her welfare is IMHO a key decider.

Edited May 23, 2013 by scorecard

[stoffel45]

Arkady, what a comprehensive and just plain kind response to the OP.

Great!

[LivinLOS]

Interestingly officials have stated that online trading (stocks shares etc) does not need a work permit..

Hard to see the rationale but still..

I also tried to get (via the Phuket gazettes issues and answers) anyone to have a stab at defining why gambling (spread betting) is any different that futures trading.. Not surprisingly no one wanted to tackle that issue.

[asiamint]

Apple, Starbucks, etc all in the press lately for what? No one has been arrested at those companies because there not doing anything wrong. There not abiding by mainstream opinion of the letter of the law.

Mark Zuxkerburg visited Bangkok, do you really think he did not check in on his online business?Did he need a work permit?

Is Thailand going to ban wealthy western stock/commodity traders/businessman coming here for a long term holiday?

The point im trying to make is that there is the letter of the law and there are many different interpretations of a particular law.

Over the years I've meet many traders/ wealthy people who have paid for lawyer's opinions in Thailand and consulted many top ranking Thai's and the questions was

Can I manage my overseas investments from Thailand if I stay for a longer period of time?

and the answer has always been yes. So long as you don't buy any Thai investments and all dealing must be overseas and you must have a tourist visa.

The simple fact is (not according to the letter of the law) you can mange overseas investments from Thailand on a tourist visa.

Think about it rationally Thailand wants to attract wealthy tourists, it's a well known stated goal of the thai government.

All Wealthy people have overseas investments, and they need to manage those investments while their on holiday, hence why the law is unenforceable on a tourist visa.

To stick to the letter of the law you would have to arrive in Thailand and switch of all contact with the outside world to abide by mainstream opinion of this

law.

[DiNiro]

You can get away with some online work until someone gets upset and turns you in.

[atyclb]

Out of curiosity, what about a person that plays the stock markets online while physically in Thailand? They are not employed but are making money.

Anyone know?

[Arkady]

Out of curiosity, what about a person that plays the stock markets online while physically in Thailand? They are not employed but are making money.

Anyone know?

That is considered as personal investment. If you do it for yourself, it is not work, any more than depositing your money in a bank account. If you do it for someone else, it is work and would also require some kind of license. You can also invest in unlisted Thai companies and buy and sell condos without a WP.

[Arkady]

MKTL. I am sorry, I didn't realise you were from a country that doesn't permit dual nationality as most on TV are from Anglo-Saxon countries where it is no problem. Pity about that but the Danish government is apparently considering making the nationality law more liberal. Hopefully the change will come soon. The Thai Interior Ministry has a new policy to inform embassies whenever any of their citizens are granted Thai nationality. So there is no way around this for you until the Danes change the law.

[hellodolly]

Don't really have any answers just a few questions.

If it is her husband's (Thai) company would he be able to have just one foreign employe and no other Thai employe's?

As for setting it all up and running it through a foreign company could this not cause problems with getting money and paying bill's where as if a Thai company it would all be straight forward.

As I say I don't know but those questions did occur to me,

[chrisartist]

Here is the definition of "work" as captured in metaphorical stone by Thai law:

Work = (defn.) Any work that involves effort, whether paid or not.

Obviously, this is the biggest joke since the definition of prostitution in Thai law. It has two problems:

(i) It is completely uninformative and has no content, because the definition actually uses the word that is supposed to be being defined;

(ii) Assuming per impossibile that the first problem can be circumvented, it entails, logically and absolutely unavoidably, that any activity at all that involves effort is work. This includes cleaning your teeth and helping your wife do the washing up.

Now, a quick response to this (and one that has been made in the media by Thai Immigration officials) is that the law does not apply to cleaning your teeth and that it means something else, i.e. [insert interpretation by Thai Immigration official]. However, of course, this response is nonsense, because the law is supposed to tell you what falls under it, which the definition of work clearly does not because it applies to any activity that involves effort. Sure, the law requires interpretation sometimes, but when the letter of the law applies to any activity whatsoever that involves effort, any attempt at all to interpret it will necessarily be arbitrary.

What all this means for the OP is that apart from obvious cases of work (i.e. what rational people would call work; for example, being a paid employee for a company), you can do what you like unless (a) someone dobs you in and ( the official in charge of your case takes a dislike to you and interprets the law in such a way that you fall foul of it.

Enjoy Thailand!

[Sophon]

MKTL. I am sorry, I didn't realise you were from a country that doesn't permit dual nationality as most on TV are from Anglo-Saxon countries where it is no problem. Pity about that but the Danish government is apparently considering making the nationality law more liberal. Hopefully the change will come soon. The Thai Interior Ministry has a new policy to inform embassies whenever any of their citizens are granted Thai nationality. So there is no way around this for you until the Danes change the law.

The Danish government is a minority government (always is), so they can't change the law without support from other parties. So far there haven't been support for any change but it seems like the largest party have now had a change of heart, and the government is saying they plan to present legislation later this year to allow dual citizenship (to the OP: See this Danish newspaper story for details).

Sophon

[tigermonkey]

You can get away with some online work until someone gets upset and turns you in.

Do you really think that you will need to wait "until someone gets upset and turns you in". The Thai government is not as naive and incompetent as most here would have you believe. I employ an email tracking service which gives me date of opening, duration of opening, and IP address where opened for my emails. . Many of my overseas emails ( sent from Thailand) are quietly opened at IP addresses belonging to the Thai governement, sometimes more than once on an individual email. Do you suppose this is being done for the amusement of civil servants ?

[dighambara]

Well, I am puzzled

I have met 3 foreign women who received residence visas upon request, because they were married to Thai.

Why hasn't your husband made a request for a residence visa for you..??

[DRONGOH]

You do online busines and you're worried?

#1: You have to know you know what you're doing.

#2 55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

[DRONGOH]

You can get away with some online work until someone gets upset and turns you in.

Do you really think that you will need to wait "until someone gets upset and turns you in". The Thai government is not as naive and incompetent as most here would have you believe. I employ an email tracking service which gives me date of opening, duration of opening, and IP address where opened for my emails. . Many of my overseas emails ( sent from Thailand) are quietly opened at IP addresses belonging to the Thai governement, sometimes more than once on an individual email. Do you suppose this is being done for the amusement of civil servants ?

Thanx

TOR all the time from now on.

Have you ever heard of https?

[MKTL]

Well because the visa was never a problem for us. I am not looking to obtain a WP to stay in Thailand, am

very happy on my marriage visa and before that a tourist visa was fine for me. But as several ppl suggested a Thai citizenship might be a good idea as it makes everything easier. I know that the Danish government is talking about allowing dual citizenships so when that happens I might consider it:-) again thanks all for your advise and inputs! Very helpful and have given me something to consider.

[mjnaus]

You can get away with some online work until someone gets upset and turns you in.

Do you really think that you will need to wait "until someone gets upset and turns you in". The Thai government is not as naive and incompetent as most here would have you believe. I employ an email tracking service which gives me date of opening, duration of opening, and IP address where opened for my emails. . Many of my overseas emails ( sent from Thailand) are quietly opened at IP addresses belonging to the Thai governement, sometimes more than once on an individual email. Do you suppose this is being done for the amusement of civil servants ?

Try retrieving/sending emails over a secure connection

[comserve]

@Arkady Thank you so much for your reply! Very helpful and I appreciate it:-) regarding citizenship I would meet all the requirements. Been married more than 3 years, we have a 2,5 yr old daughter together, already have a yellow book and can get by in Thai. I have actually never really thought about it before as it was never a problem for us and at the moment I don't want to give up my Danish citizenship but it is something to consider for the future:-) again thank you!

Many people use a computer as a hobby. You don't need a work permit to have a hobby! I might be creating a website as a hobby. It does tend to be a bit boring living in Thailand without any goals in life, that's why so many people on this forum turn to alcohol. You wouldn't want to turn into an alcoholic, would you???

[tigermonkey]

You can get away with some online work until someone gets upset and turns you in.

Do you really think that you will need to wait "until someone gets upset and turns you in". The Thai government is not as naive and incompetent as most here would have you believe. I employ an email tracking service which gives me date of opening, duration of opening, and IP address where opened for my emails. . Many of my overseas emails ( sent from Thailand) are quietly opened at IP addresses belonging to the Thai governement, sometimes more than once on an individual email. Do you suppose this is being done for the amusement of civil servants ?

Thanx

TOR all the time from now on.

Have you ever heard of https?

I am using https. Of course, I have no way of knowing if the intercepted messages are being de-encrypted. Strangely, they are always viewed after being viewed by the recipient. I don't know that TOR would help - eventually the connection has to exiit/enter Thailand, although if anonymity has been achieved within Thailand, that would help. Anyway, I have nothing to hide, but I do have greatly increased awareness after living in China for 2 years.

[tigermonkey]

You can get away with some online work until someone gets upset and turns you in.

Do you really think that you will need to wait "until someone gets upset and turns you in". The Thai government is not as naive and incompetent as most here would have you believe. I employ an email tracking service which gives me date of opening, duration of opening, and IP address where opened for my emails. . Many of my overseas emails ( sent from Thailand) are quietly opened at IP addresses belonging to the Thai governement, sometimes more than once on an individual email. Do you suppose this is being done for the amusement of civil servants ?

Try retrieving/sending emails over a secure connection

I'm not sure what type of secure connection you might be referring to - please read also my post #27. I am always willing to learn more - of course, TOT ADSL in northern rural Thailand rather limits practical solutions.

[SurfRider]

.

"Interestingly officials have stated that online trading (stocks shares etc) does not need a work permit"

What if I wanted to pay a Thai to help with clerical duties for my online trading (much like hiring a maid or house keeper)?

WP needed or not???

.

[fxe1200]

is selling things on online auctions such as ebay etc considered as working?

..or if you work remote on your German server? As long we do this not in public, nobody cares.