Is Chiang Mai Losing Its Charm?

[siam-i-am]

> Is CM getting more visitors but lower per tourist spend revenues and

> thus lower incomes into the local economy?

No, exactly the other way around. 10+ years ago there were almost ONLY backpackers, and some package tourers who didn't venture much beyond their hotel and restaurants immediately next to them. Does seem that more single men made it up to Chiang Mai 10 years ago though, that segment is completely dominated by Bangkok, Patters and other beachy desintions now. Loi Kroh is indeed pretty gloomy in many ways. (Compared to foreign nightlife areas in Pattaya or Bangkok or Phuket)

> Is it because it's Taksin's home town people (particularly Thai's), are sceptical of

> investing?

No.. Look at all the 5 star mega hotels going up. 10+ years ago there were NO 5 star hotels. (Well, perhaps just what used to be the Westin)

And look for example at Nimmanaemin Road 'Then and Now', then tell me again local people aren't investing.....

> Is it because CM is noticeably spreading out further from the city centre?

Ha, consider the alternative: Unabated expansion INSIDE the city center. Channelling away from the old center is a local policy, AND one that's working.

BTW, some examples posted by people aren't really fair.. Like a picture of Khlong Mae Kha Canal, which was a MUCH bigger mess 10 years ago. It's been beautified on many places on the outside, now what's left is just the water quality. (Which was atorcious also 10 years ago).

> Bad roads

Thapae is a mess, but other than that, the new Ring roads are among the best in Thailand (with the tunnels). The inner city has a one-way system that WORKS. Canal Road is a stellar road now, too. All major roads to outlying districs have been made 4/6 lane separate-lane roads. There's the New Sankamphaeng road, the old one was super dangerous. That one has recently been beautified too with bicycle lanes, footpaths, lanterns and signage in an additional language nobody can read. Remember what it was like driving to Doi Saket or the Sankamphaeng area 10 years ago? Yikes! THAT was bad!!!

> Unfinished projects

Nope. After the economic crisis, almost everything has been picked up again, including the VERY nice new Pantip Plaza.

> Increased traffic

Of course. Comes with growing into a bigger city. If it gets too big then there's always Lamphun or Phrae or something, or Doi Saket, Sanpatong, etc, etc.

If Chiang Mai wasn't a nice place, it wouldn't be growing so fast...

> Filthy air

Is a problem, especially (only?) in the dry season.

> Concrete flyovers

They changed their ways on that one. It's now tunnels galore, which look MUCH better... The people in local govenrment dont like flyovers either, so changes were made for the better. Imagine the old Lamphun road with a big fat concrete flyover.. It got a tunnel you don't even see from that road.

> Expansion in high rise development

Of course. However the new roads and the chanelling of development away from the center means there's a lot of land available AND accessible, so less need for Condo's. The main condo boom was during the bubble years anyway, when they were considered modern and hi-so. There's laws in place that ban high rise condo's in the old center. (And no point in building them further away where land is cheap.). Kudos to the Tessaban on this one.

> Carnival Safaris

Just one at last count. Indeed I don't think this type of project is the way to go. Another ill-conceived Taksin brain fart. Let's hope it will remain just this monumental f-up.

> Early closing

If you DONT have nightlife regulation laws (like before) then you get people complaining about the Karaoke shack next door that keeps blaring until 4am and people would say Chiang Mai is going to the dogs because of the ABSENCE of such regulations. And it's a nationwide thing, obviously. If anything it helps stop the Pattayafication of Chiang Mai.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Chiang mai is certainly more polluted, the powers that be still lack common sense, unless undulating streets through the city and hiding the likes of doi suthep behind hoardings is the new tourist attraction? Why lay new pavements then plant trees and bollards in the middle of them? Maybe because only poor people walk. There's nothing wrong with Chiang mai that political will (and tea money) cant fix. I avoid the city like the plague outside there are still a few beauty spots.

[Maejo Man]

Seriously, I like the way the haze enhances the glow of the Khom Loy floating in the sky, and riding on the superhighway at night on the weekends has given me a courage most only find in combat.

Good one cdnvic

[Johpa]

Sounds like you're in a better place now, living in America and visiting here once every few years. Congratulations.

Congratulations are not in order. I had to relocate my family back to the US because of significant health issues facing my son back in 1991 based on the advice of his pediatrician. I am rather neutral as to whether I am in a better place here or in the Thai village where we still maintain a home. But even in the US, I rarely venture into the nearby big city or venture into the even closer local shopping mall.

[lamphun]

Chiang Mai has changed dramatically over the past few decades. For those of us who were enamoured by the city at some point in the past, well of course the "charm" of that era has changed just as we have changed and aged. But even way back when, the traffic along the major arterials like Thapae, Moon Muang & CHotana, and in front of Worarot was awful. Now it is awful in most places although the institution of the one-way roads along the moat did improve things a bit.

For many, the existence of the new roads provides and enables the modern charm. Many ex-pats now live a bit outside the city and would never accept the old death defying two-lane highways out to the main satellite towns of Mae Rim, Sankhampeng, and Hang Dong. Life outside the city use to be far too ethnic for most of todays ex-pats and traditional villages are not really an option, even for other Thais, unless you marry into one.

For those who like a vibrant modern city, I would imagine that Chiang Mai has more charm today than in past decades. It certainly has the modern conveniences and ease of shopping that it lacked back when Tantrphan was the major, and really only, department store in town. But for me, the old charm that first attracted me to the city evaporated once they brought in the tuk-tuks and closed the old Henessy Club off of Huay Khao. But the wife and kids sure like to visit and go see a first run movie in English at one of the newer shopping malls. It is just that I am not a mall kind of guy. I would rather hang with my neigbors in the village or visit the local cantinas decorated with colored lights and a single reflective disco ball and listen to country girls in high boots and fishnet stocking crooning Thai country songs while drinking Mae Khong. But even these traditional cantinas are disappearing as the soulless neo middle class mubaanjatsaans (new housing estates) take over the landscape in the outlying areas too.

Excellent post Johpa and says it all. I'd only disagree with you on the traffic. In the early eighties there were lots of motorcycles and sawng tow, but very few private cars. Crossing Thapae Road was about dodging between bikes.

I used to drink at "The Ship" near the riverside, cheap cocktails.

As for the rest it's changed from being a small town to a big city. People don't seem so friendly, but maybe I'm just getting on. Winters don't seem to be as cold as they were either.

I think things started to change after "Visit Thailand Year" 1986 ? more tourists, more money in the economy. New cars, new houses.

Edited March 27, 2006 by lamphun

[mrmillersr]

Your feelings still hurt from when I suggested you change your name to 'mrbummer'?

What a wimp

Very amusing. This guys got all the answers and if you don't buy into them he resorts to posts like:

"For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm."

How can you make a general snide remark like that for someone just expressing their own personal views? These people aren't misleading anyone like you do. They are basing their comments on experience so it's pretty lame to fault them for that.

I would also refrain from calling someone a "wimp" you don't know. That is the one thing I have never been called and I don't appreciate it. You can take the cheap shots you are good at but I suggest you choose your words a bit more carefully in the future.

[Ajarn]

The entire qote was..

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm. Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal?

I'm afraid you are reading way too much into my comments. Likely because you were reading them out of context, it seems to me. In the following sentences, I was trying to show that cities don't gain or lose charm, they smply grow and evolve. That the charm is from within each of us, and if your feelings change, then your feelings change. Charm is relative.

As for all the other crap, don't do wimpy things like piggy-backing on someone else's issue. Your own issues, in a relatively straight-up mannner, please.

And be careful of your reading skills. Not everything is as you 'feel' it.

Edited March 27, 2006 by Ajarn

[jomama]

It's hard for me to say whether Chiang Mai is losing its "charm." Like other posters, I'm not sure how charming I ever thought it was from an architecural or natural setting. It has always in my 14 years here been a busy place, sometimes filled with noxious smells, smoke and sounds.

What was different, and why I stayed, was the completely new way of life, new discoveries, the mysteries, etc. In the beginning I don't remember the pollution being this bad, but then I probably never got far enough out of town to get any perspective. I remember when I thought The Pub on Huay Kaew was far out of town. But back then, the road to Doi Suthep still had its markers noting the villages that donated manpower to build it, Huay Kaew was two lanes and there was no Central. I lived near Nemanheimin Road, and it was quiet indeed.

The best hamburger was at the America Restaurant, and otherwise, we made do on the Bier Stube for farang food.

Interesting, yes. Charming, I don't know. I remember being fascinted by the circus that passed for social activity at some of the farang places with guys like the Welshman, Tony from the Black Cat, Alan from the Overlander. Today I would probably find it simply a circus and rather quickly leave the premises. So in that sense, the charm is gone. It's me that changed, mostly, but the city certainly has too.

Now I'm married to a great woman and have put down roots. I hardly get into town at all, and appreciate the new underpasses on the highways that Chanchao mentioned. Another thing that has changed is all the "crackdowns" -- one thing that first appealed to me about Thailand was its wide-open attitude. Now it doesn't matter to me personally whether the bars close at midnight or not, but part of its appeal (I wouldn't call it charm) was its very wildness.

The traffic is certainly worse and the constant building a bit tiresome. Something is considered venerable after its been here 20 years ... in that time it could have easily been torn down and rebuilt a couple of times. So many brainstorms for new businesses, so much more family money lost. But that's progress I guess.

Annecy, France is charming. Chiang Mai is busy, vibrant, colorful. Charming it's not.

[Octaviousbp]

If you guys could come up with an actual answer to the original question and post it I'd appreciate it. Uhm, if the answer is "yes", that it is losing its "charm", then I'll stop looking to relocate there. Okay thanks.

Couldn't resist. I think Ajarn hit it on the head with "charm is relative". Seems like a lot of people are grasping on to a pretty static view of the city as well...

[SamSipEt]

If you guys could come up with an actual answer to the original question and post it I'd appreciate it.

No!

Uhm, if the answer is "yes", that it is losing its "charm", then I'll stop looking to relocate there. Okay thanks.

Or then again perhaps Yes! South is very charming, very very charming in the south.

[jomama]

If you guys could come up with an actual answer to the original question and post it I'd appreciate it. Uhm, if the answer is "yes", that it is losing its "charm", then I'll stop looking to relocate there. Okay thanks.

OK, read my lips, or my words as simply as I can put them: Chiang Mai is not charming. Is that simple and clear enough for you? That indeed is an actual answer.

[Gary A]

Reading through the thread I read one post that said that as soon as I sell my car I'm moving to Chiang Mai. That got me thinking of my totally negative previous post. To be truthful the part I really HATE is driving in the inner city. Parking places are as difficult to find there as in Bangkok. If a person didn't have to drive, the city has interesting activities and many places to go and see. This is as close to an apology that I am going to make. I still prefer the boonies and wouldn't want to live in ANY city anywhere in the world.

[Ajarn]

I sure agree about driving in-town. Before I go, I have to plan for the best route at that time of day. The best time, in terms of traffic, seems to be between 1-2 pm. In addition, parking is normally out of the question. A few weeks ago I stopped in at Mikes to grab a shake and fries to go, with the idea of parking somewhere to enjoy the passing life, and my food. Unfortunately, no where to park, so my fries got cold and my shake got warm.

[Ulysses G.]

I sure agree about driving in-town. Before I go, I have to plan for the best route at that time of day. The best time, in terms of traffic, seems to be between 1-2 pm. In addition, parking is normally out of the question. A few weeks ago I stopped in at Mikes to grab a shake and fries to go, with the idea of parking somewhere to enjoy the passing life, and my food. Unfortunately, no where to park, so my fries got cold and my shake got warm.

You could park in the big parking lot next to Miquel's Mexican, but Mike would yell at you!

[chanchao]

> Parking places are as difficult to find there as in Bangkok.

Huh... Actually I find parking in Bangkok also not impossible. At least not compared with some major European cities.

You do have to read up on your back sois a bit. For Mike's I'd probably park on the inside of the moat, just inside Ratwithee Road. That's like a 30 second walk.

Same for Kafe Restaurant, where the food is a lot more varied than Mike's across the street!

Or if you don't want to cross the street, park at Rydges Thapae.. I know you (Ajarn) don't fancy the place, but it's easy enough to park for a bit. Also it provides an 'escape' from that back soi from Thapae that goes to Chang Moi, which is one-way. You can cut through their parking building so you don't get locked into a one-way trip towards the market.

Really, parking is a lot easier than it seems. For Jerusamel Falafel, another place that would SEEM impossible to park near, you just pop into the soi just before it, turn around in the sub-soi intersection, then glue your car to the wall. Plenty of space really. (Turning around is needed because otherwise you can't get out of your car anymore after gluing it to the wall. )

USE the SOIS! Easy peasy..

[Ajarn]

Chanchao, maybe you should publish a 'Creative Parking in Chiang Mai' booklet for us neophytes

The Rydges doesn't really bother me. They have their own Karma to work out...

PS. Nice to see Gecko Books as a forum sponsor. Good luck, George!

Edited March 28, 2006 by Ajarn

[groo]

Chanchao, maybe you should publish a 'Creative Parking in Chiang Mai' booklet for us neophytes

The Rydges doesn't really bother me. They have their own Karma to work out...

PS. Nice to see Gecko Books as a forum sponsor. Good luck, George!

Creative parking in Chiang Mai by Chanchao

Presenting Volumes:

Beginner : Parking at Carrefour and Macro effectively.

Beginner to Intermediate: Parking at Airport Plaza with a 5 minute walk.

Intermediate: Parking at Airport Plaza without getting to Level 1 and above

Intermediate to Advance: Parking at Jiffy Gas station

Advance: Parking at Bangchak Gas station

Advance to Super advance: Parking along the sois of Loy Kroh, MoonMuang, Chaiyapoom, Kotchasan etc etc - Bonus course - tight parking by the wall and getting down the car effectively through the passenger door.

Super Advance: A parking lot in front of Spot Light.

Soon available at your local Gecko Book Stores. Cheers guys

Edited March 28, 2006 by groo

[chanchao]

Hahhahahahahahha Finally, a new career perspective..

[SamSipEt]

Super Advance: A parking lot in front of Spot Light.

I thought that there were lots of slots at Spot Light.

[paco]

Reading through the thread I read one post that said that as soon as I sell my car I'm moving to Chiang Mai. That got me thinking of my totally negative previous post. To be truthful the part I really HATE is driving in the inner city. Parking places are as difficult to find there as in Bangkok. If a person didn't have to drive, the city has interesting activities and many places to go and see. This is as close to an apology that I am going to make. I still prefer the boonies and wouldn't want to live in ANY city anywhere in the world.

I'm the one that posted about selling my car before moving to CM. I wasn't trying to make a point about driving, just that it's the last thing I have to do before booking my ticket to LOS.

But since you mention it, I'm amazed at the posts about driving and parking in CM.

I hate the "car culture" and it's one of the main reasons I want to get out of the US. (I do have other reasons!)

One of the things I consider most attractive about living in Chiang Mai, or anywhere in Thailand is that you don't need a car. So I don't understand why anyone would choose to drive a car there with all the cheap, convenient public transport. Tuk tuk, song tao. and now busses I hear. When I was there last year I walked everywhere and loved it. So much life on the streets! Now that's charm! Nothing like that here. You need a car to get anywhere and you have to deal with some extremely agressive drivers, especially here in San Antonio, Texas.

I have lived most of my life in the "boonies", but now that I'm older and recently single, I'm ready to enjoy city life without the burden of a car.

[KhunMarco]

You need a car to get anywhere and you have to deal with some extremely agressive drivers, especially here in San Antonio, Texas.

...snip

Yup, no agressive drivers here... heeee heeee.

One thing which always amazed me in my 1 year in Vancouve BC, was the pedestrians totally careless about cars: " I have the right to cross the road and they have to stop"..or something like that.

Here, you feel like the frog in the old video game

One thing for sure , a tyres shop must be a good business here, considering the number of screeching tyres I hear from my windows.

Now as someone else said, why the h, they put trees in the middle of the sidewalk , gee too funny!

Hey not complaining, it all adds to the adventure

[jackr]

I think it HAS lost it. It is a smaller version of Bangkok without the Sky Train or the Subway. Traffic is horrible and the air quality is really bad. I'd actually rather live in Bangkok and I don't want to live there either. Give me the boonies any day.

What a load of <deleted>. Chiang Mai has bags of charm and character on a city level and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same paragraph as Bangkok, let alone sentence. Perceived 'charm' can change on a whim depending on how one feels on a given day and who/what/how many tuk tuks they happen upon at a given moment. Personally I'd say it's even more charming and grown up than it was 10 years ago when I first visited and its surroundings leave anything within 500kms of the capital for dust... IMO

But keep telling yourself you were glad you were dragged into the 'boonies' by your significant little other if it helps

[jackr]

Oops, just realised the thread date but to keep OT, Chiang Mai is even more charming than it was in 2006!

[Theyreallrubbish]

I loved Chiang Mai when I first went there in 1992. It had exactly the right mix of still being a small Thai town but with enough tourist and western services. The people still had village friendliness rather than city hustle.

Everything felt free and easy. Police were easy going. People were easy going. It was possible to park in front Spotlight most of the time or at the worst in front of John's Place. Traffic wasn't too bad and prices were still dirt cheap.

I moved to Bangkok after a year, which I initially hated but grew to love.

Now I'm thinking of living in Chiang Mai for 6 months or a year for a break. If its really developed and lost the "charm" I originally enjoyed, where else has developed into what Chiang Mai was like 15 years ago? Chiang Rai? Lamphun? Fang?

[Ulysses G.]

I loved Chiang Mai when I first went there in 1992. It had exactly the right mix of still being a small Thai town but with enough tourist and western services. The people still had village friendliness rather than city hustle.

The first thing that I remember about Chiang Mai in 1989 is trying to figure out how to cross the street anywhere near Thapae Gate because of the non-ending traffic. I also remember numerous pedestrians getting slammed into by vechicles speeding down the street - often going in the wrong direction. It hasn't changed all that much.

I never found Chiang Mai to be all that "charming", but it has the right mix of reasonable prices, good food and lots of things to keep foreigners happy. Comparing it to the endless traffic jams of Bangkok, however, is just plain silly.

[Donnyboy]

I loved Chiang Mai when I first went there in 1992. It had exactly the right mix of still being a small Thai town but with enough tourist and western services. The people still had village friendliness rather than city hustle.

The first thing that I remember about Chiang Mai in 1989 is trying to figure out how to cross the street anywhere near Thapae Gate because of the non-ending traffic. I also remember numerous pedestrians getting slammed into by vechicles speeding down the street - often going in the wrong direction. It hasn't changed all that much.

I never found Chiang Mai to be all that "charming", but it has the right mix of reasonable prices, good food and lots of things to keep foreigners happy. Comparing it to the endless traffic jams of Bangkok, however, is just plain silly.

Confusius say; If Bangkok is one big carpark, Chiang Mai would be just a drive thru

[cm-happy]

Don't think CM has lost any of is allure or "charm"

What has changed is the development outside of the city. What used tobe countryside.

What used to be farm land is now turning into housing estates or condos.

more and more people moving outside of the city within easy commuting distance.

[Pantip]

I support Ulysses’ 2006 posting on this subject. I’ve been here for many years and my business is as good as it’s ever been, I have a lovely home and family life in a beautiful city – in fact I’m as happy as a pig in shit.

What I can’t understand is if people are really so unhappy living here – why don’t they up stumps and move to greener pastures, maybe winging about things is their form of happiness!!??

[PeaceBlondie]

I visit homes in the moobahns of northern Hang Dong, and it's just a suburb of Chiang Mai. Lamphun may be slightly more isolated, but you can commute to or from Chiang Mai if you wish to. The new highways are fast; even the moat traffic keeps moving, especially if you're not in a big truck.

Agreed, comparisons to Bangkok, Cleveland, or Katmandhu are absurd.

[elephantkungfu]

but in my opinion even Loi Kroh road certainly looks gloomy these days.

That was fron the OP. Since when was Loi Kroh ever charming??

[miltonbentley]

I support Ulysses’ 2006 posting on this subject. I’ve been here for many years and my business is as good as it’s ever been, I have a lovely home and family life in a beautiful city – in fact I’m as happy as a pig in shit.

What I can’t understand is if people are really so unhappy living here – why don’t they up stumps and move to greener pastures, maybe winging about things is their form of happiness!!??

Couldn't agree more. I'd rather live in CM than anywhere in the world.