Definition Of "work In Thailand"

[skiller]

I heard many times, you can not work in Thailand w/o work permit. In my home country it is exactly the same.

Here some examples:

A: My friend is here in Thailand for holidays (3 weeks) with his family. He is the owner/director from a European company. The company

is registered in UK, All taxes and VAT are going to the UK goverment.

Two times a day in the morning 90 minutes and in the evening 90 minutes, he is working via Remote and do some important things

for his company in UK. Sometimes he is getting phone calls via Skype from his secratary and he gives important advices.

In other words he is working in Thailand.

B: Another friend runs an offshore company in a tax haven country, British Virgin Islands. He runs some websites and he is selling electronic goods.

He is staying in Thailand with a retired visa. Two hours a day he is checking his emails and he gives support to his customers.

Every month he is sending 80000 Baht from his comany bank account BVI to Siam bank in Thailand.

He needs the money for live here in Thailand.

C: My best friend has is own website which is a non commercial site. 5 hours a week he is WORKING on his own website. He update the content

and pictures.

Are all this three guys working ilegal in Thailand?

Cheers

[TerryLH]

No, just the first two examples.

[skiller]

There must be a clear definition for "ilegal work in Thailand"

A is paying tax in UK his business break down without his advices. What shall he do now? He has one week from his holidays left. Shall he book a return flight tomorrow? He don´t want to break the law of Thailand?

B is a lucky man. He mustn´t pay any Tax. Only if he staying more than 180 days a year in his home country.

Edited May 23, 2013 by skiller

[Arkady]

A is a tourist who receives and makes some business calls and emails while on holiday in Thailand. Probably most businessmen on holiday have to do some of that. By the most anal definition possible a WP might be required but even a Thai court would throw out this case and anyway how is he going to get caught! A WP would technically be required if he is here to work temporarily at the Thai branch of his business. But I had a visit from Labour Ministry investigators who asked about a couple of farangs in the office and when the staff explained they were out from the London office visiting company offices on a tour of Asia, the Labour officials said fine and left.

B is clearly work performed in Thailand but no easy way to get caught. He is taxable on the 80k so is the BVI company because it has a permanent establishment in Thailand.

C seems to be a hobby like setting up a Facebook page. If he is working for a charity, it could be construed as work.

Bear in mind that people get caught working without WPs either because someone complains about them (usually a disgruntled Thai they or their associates have pissed off) or because they get caught up in a random raid on offices. If people are discretely working online at home, there is virtually no way for them to get caught. Equally there is virtually no way for them to get WPs without a Thai company, even if they want to go legal.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Arkady

[yoslim]

omg your friend is a hardened criminal and might face years of jail in Thailand, if I were him I would hop on the first taxi to airport and book a flight home. Working without a WP is a very serious offense

[smccolley]

How about this example?

I am paid by a Thai registered company. I have a work permit. I have no customers in Thailand and travel every week for work. I get home on the weekends and some holidays (like today). At this time I don't spend 180 days a year in Thailand.

Should I be paying Thai tax?

[ubonjoe]

From: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

1. Taxable Person Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any individual residing in Thailand for a period or several periods in total of at least 180 days in a tax year (January 1 – December 31). A resident of Thailand has a duty to pay tax on income remitted from a source in Thailand as well as on any income from a foreign source in connection with the taxpayers’ employment or business carried on abroad or a property situated abroad, and that income is remitted into Thailand within the year that the taxpayer receives that income (i.e. cash basis). A non-resident is subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.

The answer is no. But you would still have to pay tax monthly and submit proof when you file your tax return to get your money back.

[Mario2008]

Section 5 of the law gives a definition of work:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=162114

Mister A and B are working, with the Thai government probably not interested in mister A.

[chrisartist]

Section 5 of the law gives a definition of work:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=162114

Mister A and B are working, with the Thai government probably not interested in mister A.

Yes, it gives the definition of work, so it is at least clear what definition is used in Thai law. However, as I noted in another thread, nothing can be deduced from it other than that in Thailand, all activities constitute work, which is either not very informative or gives anyone in authority to interpret it in such a way that you fall foul of the law.

About the only thing you can say about what constitutes work in everyday practice (because the law is useless in this regard) is that sometimes work permits are granted and sometimes they are not. if you are granted a work permit for an activity, you are working, and if you ask whether or not a work permit would be granted for an activity if you were to apply and the answer is in the affirmative, you would be working if you performed that activity. if you are not or would not be granted a work permit, then you are/would be either not working or working illegally with no definitive way of determining which.

Edited May 24, 2013 by chrisartist

[skiller]

Thanks for all answers.

I am guessing the major thing or defintion would be "you work in Thailand when you get paid inside the country"

I am not a maniac, here another true story. This is real life.

In March 2013 David Carlos Santana came to Bangkok. He made a big show. He came to Thailand with his stuff about 20 people.

Background singers, dancers, the guy who ajust his guitars 90 minutes before the show was starting, one guy was responsible for the stage,

he came one week before. He gave orders and advices, where to put the lights, where to put the speakers and so on.

All this guys were working and public. Do they had a WP? No!

Why not?

[Sophon]

Thanks for all answers.

I am guessing the major thing or defintion would be "you work in Thailand when you get paid inside the country"

I am not a maniac, here another true story. This is real life.

In March 2013 David Carlos Santana came to Bangkok. He made a big show. He came to Thailand with his stuff about 20 people.

Background singers, dancers, the guy who ajust his guitars 90 minutes before the show was starting, one guy was responsible for the stage,

he came one week before. He gave orders and advices, where to put the lights, where to put the speakers and so on.

All this guys were working and public. Do they had a WP? No!

Why not?

Where you are getting paid and even if you are paid at all is not part of the determination of whether you are working in Thailand or not. Even unpaid volunteers need work permits if they are working here.

I don't know about David Carlos Santana specifically, but entertainers performing in Thailand and their stage workers etc. do normally have work permits. There are special emergency/short time work permits available for such people.

Sophon

[Mario2008]

Per above, they had Work Permits and paid their taxes.

[Soutpeel]

Thanks for all answers.

I am guessing the major thing or defintion would be "you work in Thailand when you get paid inside the country"

I am not a maniac, here another true story. This is real life.

In March 2013 David Carlos Santana came to Bangkok. He made a big show. He came to Thailand with his stuff about 20 people.

Background singers, dancers, the guy who ajust his guitars 90 minutes before the show was starting, one guy was responsible for the stage,

he came one week before. He gave orders and advices, where to put the lights, where to put the speakers and so on.

All this guys were working and public. Do they had a WP? No!

Why not?

Well they are suppose to have WP's..the temporay variety of valid for 14 days, they may have been put in place by the promoter and the people you refer to just didnt know it...on a temp WP you dont get anything other than a letter, you dont get a blue book for you to keep

As regards your other point, where you paid whether Thailand or overseas is irrelevant to the definition of work in Thailand. per the current law if an offical in Thailand decides your working in Thailand your working...its that simple

Edited May 24, 2013 by Soutpeel

[Soutpeel]

Section 5 of the law gives a definition of work:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=162114

Mister A and B are working, with the Thai government probably not interested in mister A.

Yes, it gives the definition of work, so it is at least clear what definition is used in Thai law. However, as I noted in another thread, nothing can be deduced from it other than that in Thailand, all activities constitute work, which is either not very informative or gives anyone in authority to interpret it in such a way that you fall foul of the law.

About the only thing you can say about what constitutes work in everyday practice (because the law is useless in this regard) is that sometimes work permits are granted and sometimes they are not. if you are granted a work permit for an activity, you are working, and if you ask whether or not a work permit would be granted for an activity if you were to apply and the answer is in the affirmative, you would be working if you performed that activity. if you are not or would not be granted a work permit, then you are/would be either not working or working illegally with no definitive way of determining which.

Section 5 of the law gives a definition of work:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=162114

Mister A and B are working, with the Thai government probably not interested in mister A.

Yes, it gives the definition of work, so it is at least clear what definition is used in Thai law. However, as I noted in another thread, nothing can be deduced from it other than that in Thailand, all activities constitute work, which is either not very informative or gives anyone in authority to interpret it in such a way that you fall foul of the law.

About the only thing you can say about what constitutes work in everyday practice (because the law is useless in this regard) is that sometimes work permits are granted and sometimes they are not. if you are granted a work permit for an activity, you are working, and if you ask whether or not a work permit would be granted for an activity if you were to apply and the answer is in the affirmative, you would be working if you performed that activity. if you are not or would not be granted a work permit, then you are/would be either not working or working illegally with no definitive way of determining which.

....er the definition of working in Thailand is very simple its what the particular official decides is working at that particular point in time...the rational of saying that because you cant get a WP infers that its not working is not correct...

[Maestro]

How about this example?

I am paid by a Thai registered company. I have a work permit. I have no customers in Thailand and travel every week for work. I get home on the weekends and some holidays (like today). At this time I don't spend 180 days a year in Thailand.

Should I be paying Thai tax?

Look at your pay slip and you will find that you are already paying tax. Your employer deducts it from your salary and sends it to the revenue department.

[smccolley]

How about this example?

I am paid by a Thai registered company. I have a work permit. I have no customers in Thailand and travel every week for work. I get home on the weekends and some holidays (like today). At this time I don't spend 180 days a year in Thailand.

Should I be paying Thai tax?

Look at your pay slip and you will find that you are already paying tax. Your employer deducts it from your salary and sends it to the revenue department.

Oh they are! About 1 million baht per year! But the question is - if I am not in Thailand 180 days and when I am here I am not working on any projects in Thailand, can I file and get that money refunded at the end of the year?

[ubonjoe]

Did you read my post just after your previous post. I think I gave you a good answer.

[asiaexpat]

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any individual residing in Thailand for a period or several periods in total of at least 180 days in a tax year (January 1 – December 31

A non-resident is subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.

It seems very clear. File a return and see if you do not believe this.

[smccolley]

Did you read my post just after your previous post. I think I gave you a good answer.

Thanks UbonJoe. I did re-read that and that actually helps, about 2m baht is derived from sources outside of thailand so that should help reduce the amount I have to pay.

The company says they will have Ernst and Young do my taxes for me this year, I just wanted to be sure how much I had to set aside from the outside income for taxes here.

[Arkady]

What you earn from the Thai company is income that arises in Thailand and in taxable even if you are in Thailand less than 180 days. If you were a freelancer based abroad spending zero days a year in Thailand and doing work for a Thai company from offshore, your income will still be taxable and the Thai company would have to deduct tax at a flat rate (15% I think) which might be more than you would have to pay on salary with tax allowances. To avoid Thai tax on the income earned while abroad, you need to have a separate contract and salary from an overseas company. If this is a tax haven domiciled company, there will be no tax to pay for working outside the tax haven. Otherwise, you will have to pay tax in the jurisdiction the company is domiciled. In that case you might be better off taking the hit on the Thai tax, particularly if the other company is in a jurisdiction where you would need a work permit. If your company doesn't have a clue and just tells you Ernst and Young will take care of it, that means it will be too late to do any tax planning and you won't be able to save anything. Ernst and Yong will just file your PND 91 before the end of March and they make it sound very complicated and present a huge bill but you could actually do that yourself online in a few minutes.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Arkady

[Dork]

It is probably worthwhile being aware that if you work for a large company and normally renew your Non B extension & WP through the OSSC (One Stop Service Centre) that if you choose to file your personal income returns yourself, you will lose the right to use the OSSC and will have to revert to the cumbersome process involving immigration and the Labour Department that most plebs are forced to use.

[ubonjoe]

It is probably worthwhile being aware that if you work for a large company and normally renew your Non B extension & WP through the OSSC (One Stop Service Centre) that if you choose to file your personal income returns yourself, you will lose the right to use the OSSC and will have to revert to the cumbersome process involving immigration and the Labour Department that most plebs are forced to use.

This sounds more like rumor than fact.

How would they know that you filed you own tax returns?

Or course for most it would not matter because their employers would be paying for the accountant to do the return if they are working as an expat for multinational company.

Edited May 28, 2013 by ubonjoe

[Dork]

It is probably worthwhile being aware that if you work for a large company and normally renew your Non B extension & WP through the OSSC (One Stop Service Centre) that if you choose to file your personal income returns yourself, you will lose the right to use the OSSC and will have to revert to the cumbersome process involving immigration and the Labour Department that most plebs are forced to use.

This sounds more like rumor than fact.

How would they know that you filed you own tax returns?

Or course for most it would not matter because their employers would be paying for the accountant to do the return if they are working as an expat for multinational company.

I read about this while researching something in relation to BOI companies. It was quite a while ago so can't recall where.

Yes it could be just a rumour but with a quick search I could find at least one reference saying the same thing;

http://totallyexpat.com/global-immigration-news/thailand-expedited-visa-renewals-no-longer-available/