State Pensions, Australia & Others

[swissie]

Careful, this is Bar-Talk. Goes like this:

Australians, living in Thailand, are getting less Pension-Money than in Australia since they live in a "cheap-country" ?

True or false ?

If true, are there other countries applying the same mathematics ?

Thanks & cheers.

[giddyup]

False. They don't get any concession allowances though if living overseas.

Edited May 29, 2013 by giddyup

[Billy The Kid]

State Pension in Ireland is €230 (8,510 baht) a week. Is that better or worse than Australians State Pension ? Sorry for hijacking your thread OP.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Billy The Kid

[kevvy]

False .. they get the same without the benefits . but you have to apply for your pension before you move overseas permanently . If you leave before 65 and you are out of the country for more than two years and return when you are 65 you will have to qualify again , that will be 2 years time . it sinks.

[BookMan]

PLease. Lets not make it another UK pension thread

[soi41]

Ofcourse it is true!

And if Australians stay in cheap, cheap Cambodia, they have to pay Canberra!!

[swissie]

False .. they get the same without the benefits . but you have to apply for your pension before you move overseas permanently . If you leave before 65 and you are out of the country for more than two years and return when you are 65 you will have to qualify again , that will be 2 years time . it sinks.

So it must be the "no benefits, that they are talking about. Thanks.

[swissie]

Ofcourse it is true!

And if Australians stay in cheap, cheap Cambodia, they have to pay Canberra!!

Sorry, no understand. Cheers.

[swissie]

PLease. Lets not make it another UK pension thread

Better not. Over 2500 posts on this one already. But is the UK Pension-System so complicated, that it is cause for over 2500 posts???

Cheers.

[harrry]

The real thing about wheter you get paid different ouside Australia depends mainly on how long you have lived in Australia during your working life. If you have worked less that an amount (which is being raised to 35 working age years ) in Australia you will get paid a full pension in Australia but you will have to claim the proportions you are due from the other countries if you can. If you leave Australia the governemt only pays a pension for the proportion of time you have lived in Australia so you may only get aq 10% pension paid outside Australia if you have only lived 5 years or so. You are also not entitled for extras like rent supplement or phone allowance etc if you live outside australia.

[swissie]

The real thing about wheter you get paid different ouside Australia depends mainly on how long you have lived in Australia during your working life. If you have worked less that an amount (which is being raised to 35 working age years ) in Australia you will get paid a full pension in Australia but you will have to claim the proportions you are due from the other countries if you can. If you leave Australia the governemt only pays a pension for the proportion of time you have lived in Australia so you may only get aq 10% pension paid outside Australia if you have only lived 5 years or so. You are also not entitled for extras like rent supplement or phone allowance etc if you live outside australia.

This helps. My brother emigrated to Australia in 1982. Was self employed most of the time. Get's an Aussie-Pension plus some pension-money from Switzerland. Has his own home (no bank-loan), but contemplating moving to Thailand. I tell him to stay where he is and visit Thailand as a tourist frequently.

Cheers.

[harrry]

The real thing about wheter you get paid different ouside Australia depends mainly on how long you have lived in Australia during your working life. If you have worked less that an amount (which is being raised to 35 working age years ) in Australia you will get paid a full pension in Australia but you will have to claim the proportions you are due from the other countries if you can. If you leave Australia the governemt only pays a pension for the proportion of time you have lived in Australia so you may only get aq 10% pension paid outside Australia if you have only lived 5 years or so. You are also not entitled for extras like rent supplement or phone allowance etc if you live outside australia.

This helps. My brother emigrated to Australia in 1982. Was self employed most of the time. Get's an Aussie-Pension plus some pension-money from Switzerland. Has his own home (no bank-loan), but contemplating moving to Thailand. I tell him to stay where he is and visit Thailand as a tourist frequently.

Cheers.

sorry..I put worked...it is lived in during their working age...ie 16 to 65. And many countries have a recipricroal arangement. Switzerland and Australia have one so time spent in each country counts but the pension is paid by each party for the required time. He may get more that the aussie pension.

Edited May 29, 2013 by harrry

[swissie]

The real thing about wheter you get paid different ouside Australia depends mainly on how long you have lived in Australia during your working life. If you have worked less that an amount (which is being raised to 35 working age years ) in Australia you will get paid a full pension in Australia but you will have to claim the proportions you are due from the other countries if you can. If you leave Australia the governemt only pays a pension for the proportion of time you have lived in Australia so you may only get aq 10% pension paid outside Australia if you have only lived 5 years or so. You are also not entitled for extras like rent supplement or phone allowance etc if you live outside australia.

This helps. My brother emigrated to Australia in 1982. Was self employed most of the time. Get's an Aussie-Pension plus some pension-money from Switzerland. Has his own home (no bank-loan), but contemplating moving to Thailand. I tell him to stay where he is and visit Thailand as a tourist frequently.

Cheers.

sorry..I put worked...it is lived in during their working age...ie 16 to 65. And many countries have a recipricroal arangement. Switzerland and Australia have one so time spent in each country counts but the pension is paid by each party for the required time. He may get more that the aussie pension.

THX, Harry. Even without any pension, we figured out, that he would be able to support his way until the age of 108! We had a good laugh. But not for long, because we realized, that the most part of the future "working-populace" on this globe will not be in such a comfortable position, once they reach the age of retirement. Not even in Europe.

Cheers.

[seajae]

I was on a dissability pension in Australia(severe back injury in '93), they said it would continue over here but it was stopped a few months ago because they said I could sit for more than 10 minutes and drive a car for up to 20 minutes even though isuffered pain doing both, didnt matter. It has become a big thing to stop paying aussies living overseas with the current govt, your pension remains on the same rates but they do not pay any of the extras which reduces it around $100 plus a fortnight but they look for any excuse to stop paying it. I am going through the "reinstatement" process but it has been almost 3 months and I have heard nothing, they have 3 different panels that will take turns if the one before it says no so this process could take up to a year to complete, I am lucky my wife has a top job.

[simple1]

False .. they get the same without the benefits . but you have to apply for your pension before you move overseas permanently . If you leave before 65 and you are out of the country for more than two years and return when you are 65 you will have to qualify again , that will be 2 years time . it sinks.

Not correct. If you are assessed as an Australian resident upon return, you are obliged to remain in Australia for a minimum of two years in order than the Aged Pension is paid if you move back overseas. Not that you will only be eligible for Aged Pension after return to Australia for two years.

Note that after 01/2014, Australian Working Life Residence, aside from other criteria, for full Aged Pension will increase from 25 to 35 years for new applicants.

[kurnell]

What is my pension likely to be in 18 years time? Will it cover a cappuccino, a six pack and a bit of slap and tickle?

[MrWorldwide]

Let's be clear here - are we talking Superannuation or the Australian Aged Pension ? The latter is taxpayer-funded, and was never intended to finance overseas holidays (of whatever duration) -very different to the British 'pension fund' each worker pays into for the duration of their working lives.

[cpofc]

hehehe Bar Talk. If there was ever a place to get the wrong advice it would be an Ex Pat Bar in Thailand. Blokes have been off the plane for 24 Hrs and think they know all the answers.

Having joined the military at 15, I have been on a Pension since I turned 35. Although the practise of paying Pensions to 20 Year Military Veterans ceased in the early nineties and no longer exists in the Australian Military today. IMHO it was the worst thing our government/s ever did. But this is another story.

However. There may be some element of truth in what you heard in the bar when it comes to Australian Taxation Laws.

If you intend to live outside of Australia permanently. I.E. Leaving no fixed address in Australia and declaring yourself a 'Non Resident For Taxation Purposes' AND if your Pension is being paid by an Australian Institution into an Australian Bank (which by law has to be paid this way) then the ATO will tax you from the first dollar you earn at the nominal rate! That's is, you will not receive the now $18,000 Dollar Tax Free Threshold. This can add up to a fair amount of money lost in Tax and cuts into your pension big time! Even if you claim it back at the end of the Tax Year. I have actually spoken to a high powered public servant in the Taxation Department about all this.

Department of Veteran Affairs (DVA) Pensions are also paid at the same rate to Vets living overseas, and receive all the rises and adjustments.

But the fair dinkum answer is NO. They do not deduct anything from your Australian Pension based on geographical location. You also get the same increases etc., as if you lived in Aust.

As for Dole/Welfare (different kettle of fish) there have been some changes there. if you are on a Centrelink Disability Pension you can now only spend 6 weeks at a time out of the country before they stop paying you. But this only affects the bludgers.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

[simple1]

Let's be clear here - are we talking Superannuation or the Australian Aged Pension ? The latter is taxpayer-funded, and was never intended to finance overseas holidays (of whatever duration) -very different to the British 'pension fund' each worker pays into for the duration of their working lives.

There was a government funded study a few years back proving that payment, for those solely dependent of the Aged Pension who move overseas, is overall actually less costly to the government. Politicians do not publically refer to the study as it doesn't suit their populist agenda.

[weegee]

hehehe Bar Talk. If there was ever a place to get the wrong advice it would be an Ex Pat Bar in Thailand. Blokes have been off the plane for 24 Hrs and think they know all the answers.

Having joined the military at 15, I have been on a Pension since I turned 35. Although the practise of paying Pensions to 20 Year Military Veterans ceased in the early nineties and no longer exists in the Australian Military today. IMHO it was the worst thing our government/s ever did. But this is another story.

However. There may be some element of truth in what you heard in the bar when it comes to Australian Taxation Laws.

If you intend to live outside of Australia permanently. I.E. Leaving no fixed address in Australia and declaring yourself a 'Non Resident For Taxation Purposes' AND if your Pension is being paid by an Australian Institution into an Australian Bank (which by law has to be paid this way) then the ATO will tax you from the first dollar you earn at the nominal rate! That's is, you will not receive the now $18,000 Dollar Tax Free Threshold. This can add up to a fair amount of money lost in Tax and cuts into your pension big time! Even if you claim it back at the end of the Tax Year. I have actually spoken to a high powered public servant in the Taxation Department about all this.

Department of Veteran Affairs (DVA) Pensions are also paid at the same rate to Vets living overseas, and receive all the rises and adjustments.

But the fair dinkum answer is NO. They do not deduct anything from your Australian Pension based on geographical location. You also get the same increases etc., as if you lived in Aust.

As for Dole/Welfare (different kettle of fish) there have been some changes there. if you are on a Centrelink Disability Pension you can now only spend 6 weeks at a time out of the country before they stop paying you. But this only affects the bludgers.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

Thank you,.... CORRECT !!!....your post will clean up all the bullshit being flung around previously...you put the issue, simple and understandable (so the bar flies could even get the message through the haze)..

[cpofc]

Let's be clear here - are we talking Superannuation or the Australian Aged Pension ? The latter is taxpayer-funded, and was never intended to finance overseas holidays (of whatever duration) -very different to the British 'pension fund' each worker pays into for the duration of their working lives.

There was a government funded study a few years back proving that payment, for those solely dependent of the Aged Pension who move overseas, is overall actually less costly to the government. Politicians do not publically refer to the study as it doesn't suit their populist agenda.

quite true. Living overseas you are not helping clog up the Medical and Hospital (Medicare system) nor using up any of Australia's resources or infrastructure. Looking after elderly pensioners is a pain in the arse. its a win win for the government.

The way Australian treats its elderly is, overall, pretty shabby really.

Recently a town in Sweden was thinking about setting up a Retirement Home in Thailand to cater for their elderly. The Bean Counters had done their sums and found it a better option than importing 'carers' from the 3rd world to look after them.

Not a bad idea when you think about it.

[weegee]

Good idea actually...Good fresh vegetables at affordable prices...places and new people to meet. Probably would brighten up their life as well.

There are a lot of Australians looking for an alternative to living in their unmortgaged homes, with nothing left of the pension after they eat....

They built the country in some way or another, just to be shafted in the end....for some it isnt their fault they only ended up with a miserable pension to somehow survive on...

[weegee]

Let's be clear here - are we talking Superannuation or the Australian Aged Pension ? The latter is taxpayer-funded, and was never intended to finance overseas holidays (of whatever duration) -very different to the British 'pension fund' each worker pays into for the duration of their working lives.

SO DID AUSTRALIANS.....from around the late 1940's

[MrWorldwide]

News to me - I've only every known the Superannuation system : initially voluntaty and completely employee-funded, later mandatory Employer contributions. I stand corrected.

[samran]

Careful guys, you are giving the Brit's a run for their money on their never ending pension threads

[ripstanley]

hehehe Bar Talk. If there was ever a place to get the wrong advice it would be an Ex Pat Bar in Thailand. Blokes have been off the plane for 24 Hrs and think they know all the answers.

Having joined the military at 15, I have been on a Pension since I turned 35. Although the practise of paying Pensions to 20 Year Military Veterans ceased in the early nineties and no longer exists in the Australian Military today. IMHO it was the worst thing our government/s ever did. But this is another story.

However. There may be some element of truth in what you heard in the bar when it comes to Australian Taxation Laws.

If you intend to live outside of Australia permanently. I.E. Leaving no fixed address in Australia and declaring yourself a 'Non Resident For Taxation Purposes' AND if your Pension is being paid by an Australian Institution into an Australian Bank (which by law has to be paid this way) then the ATO will tax you from the first dollar you earn at the nominal rate! That's is, you will not receive the now $18,000 Dollar Tax Free Threshold. This can add up to a fair amount of money lost in Tax and cuts into your pension big time! Even if you claim it back at the end of the Tax Year. I have actually spoken to a high powered public servant in the Taxation Department about all this.

Department of Veteran Affairs (DVA) Pensions are also paid at the same rate to Vets living overseas, and receive all the rises and adjustments.

But the fair dinkum answer is NO. They do not deduct anything from your Australian Pension based on geographical location. You also get the same increases etc., as if you lived in Aust.

As for Dole/Welfare (different kettle of fish) there have been some changes there. if you are on a Centrelink Disability Pension you can now only spend 6 weeks at a time out of the country before they stop paying you. But this only affects the bludgers.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

I live permanently in Thailand. I receive a government superannuation pension. I contacted the the Taxation department and spoke to an officer in their superannuation department. I was advised that as I am a recipient of a government superannuation pension that I would always be a resident of Australia for taxation purposes. As such I get the Taxation Free Threshold. Only downside is I have to pay the medicare levy. When I fill out my taxation return I tick resident and give my Thailand address.

[cpofc]

I was already aware of this, Non resident for Tax Purposes thing that is why I rang the ATO.

Ok, my story. In 2004 I rang the ATO. it was first thing on a Monday morning and I said to the person on the other end of the phone, that I had an easy question for them to kick off the week. As it turned out it was not so easy after all. After being put on hold numerous times where no one could give me a specific answer the Departmental Boss finally got on the phone. It was a female and she told me what I said above. That if I failed to keep a permanent residential address in Australia and if I did not return to Aust at least once every two years or so I could be deemed as being a Non resident for Tax Purposes and have the full nominal rate of tax taken from my pension from the first dollar earnt. I.E. No Tax Free Threshold. The bit about returning to Oz every two years she said was 'off the record', but to take it as advice. I left it at that. I don't say that you are wrong, considering the problem the ATO had answering my 'simple' question in the first place, and maybe the rules have changed some time in the past 10 years, but what I am telling you is gospel.

A few years later, one fine day, I went to my CBA online account (Netbank) and saw a debit of a fairly decent sum which was nominated as 'Withholding Tax'. When I immediately rang the CBA they told me that THEY, THEM, the Bank had off their own bat deemed me to be a Non Resident for Taxation Purposes! Hence with withholding Tax. I fairly blew up and challenged their right to change my Status as an Australian National. I was incensed! You're a bloody bank for christs sake not a Government Agency. How dare you! They reinstated my status and paid the money back into my account immediately.

So there you have it. Maybe someone might try formally asking the ATO again.

[Will27]

hehehe Bar Talk. If there was ever a place to get the wrong advice it would be an Ex Pat Bar in Thailand. Blokes have been off the plane for 24 Hrs and think they know all the answers.

Having joined the military at 15, I have been on a Pension since I turned 35. Although the practise of paying Pensions to 20 Year Military Veterans ceased in the early nineties and no longer exists in the Australian Military today. IMHO it was the worst thing our government/s ever did. But this is another story.

However. There may be some element of truth in what you heard in the bar when it comes to Australian Taxation Laws.

If you intend to live outside of Australia permanently. I.E. Leaving no fixed address in Australia and declaring yourself a 'Non Resident For Taxation Purposes' AND if your Pension is being paid by an Australian Institution into an Australian Bank (which by law has to be paid this way) then the ATO will tax you from the first dollar you earn at the nominal rate! That's is, you will not receive the now $18,000 Dollar Tax Free Threshold. This can add up to a fair amount of money lost in Tax and cuts into your pension big time! Even if you claim it back at the end of the Tax Year. I have actually spoken to a high powered public servant in the Taxation Department about all this.

Department of Veteran Affairs (DVA) Pensions are also paid at the same rate to Vets living overseas, and receive all the rises and adjustments.

But the fair dinkum answer is NO. They do not deduct anything from your Australian Pension based on geographical location. You also get the same increases etc., as if you lived in Aust.

As for Dole/Welfare (different kettle of fish) there have been some changes there. if you are on a Centrelink Disability Pension you can now only spend 6 weeks at a time out of the country before they stop paying you. But this only affects the bludgers.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

I live permanently in Thailand. I receive a government superannuation pension. I contacted the the Taxation department and spoke to an officer in their superannuation department. I was advised that as I am a recipient of a government superannuation pension that I would always be a resident of Australia for taxation purposes. As such I get the Taxation Free Threshold. Only downside is I have to pay the medicare levy. When I fill out my taxation return I tick resident and give my Thailand address.

I hope you're right, but I've got a feeling you are wrong.

Australians tax system is based on self assessment so you're being assessed as a resident

because that is what you've ticked.

Unless you have something in writing from the ATO such as a ruling, you could be in for a rude shock.

If you're audited and the ATO claim you to be a non-resident for taxation purposes, which I think you are,

you will be taxed at 32.5% with no threshold.

That is a huge chunk of change and personally I don't think it's fair.

Regards

Will

[ripstanley]

hehehe Bar Talk. If there was ever a place to get the wrong advice it would be an Ex Pat Bar in Thailand. Blokes have been off the plane for 24 Hrs and think they know all the answers.

Having joined the military at 15, I have been on a Pension since I turned 35. Although the practise of paying Pensions to 20 Year Military Veterans ceased in the early nineties and no longer exists in the Australian Military today. IMHO it was the worst thing our government/s ever did. But this is another story.

However. There may be some element of truth in what you heard in the bar when it comes to Australian Taxation Laws.

If you intend to live outside of Australia permanently. I.E. Leaving no fixed address in Australia and declaring yourself a 'Non Resident For Taxation Purposes' AND if your Pension is being paid by an Australian Institution into an Australian Bank (which by law has to be paid this way) then the ATO will tax you from the first dollar you earn at the nominal rate! That's is, you will not receive the now $18,000 Dollar Tax Free Threshold. This can add up to a fair amount of money lost in Tax and cuts into your pension big time! Even if you claim it back at the end of the Tax Year. I have actually spoken to a high powered public servant in the Taxation Department about all this.

Department of Veteran Affairs (DVA) Pensions are also paid at the same rate to Vets living overseas, and receive all the rises and adjustments.

But the fair dinkum answer is NO. They do not deduct anything from your Australian Pension based on geographical location. You also get the same increases etc., as if you lived in Aust.

As for Dole/Welfare (different kettle of fish) there have been some changes there. if you are on a Centrelink Disability Pension you can now only spend 6 weeks at a time out of the country before they stop paying you. But this only affects the bludgers.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

I live permanently in Thailand. I receive a government superannuation pension. I contacted the the Taxation department and spoke to an officer in their superannuation department. I was advised that as I am a recipient of a government superannuation pension that I would always be a resident of Australia for taxation purposes. As such I get the Taxation Free Threshold. Only downside is I have to pay the medicare levy. When I fill out my taxation return I tick resident and give my Thailand address.

I hope you're right, but I've got a feeling you are wrong.

Australians tax system is based on self assessment so you're being assessed as a resident

because that is what you've ticked.

Unless you have something in writing from the ATO such as a ruling, you could be in for a rude shock.

If you're audited and the ATO claim you to be a non-resident for taxation purposes, which I think you are,

you will be taxed at 32.5% with no threshold.

That is a huge chunk of change and personally I don't think it's fair.

Regards

Will

When I spoke this the taxation department the decision that they quoted me is now linked to my tax file number. I was given a number which refers to the decision they made.

I spoke to an expert in their superannuation section.

Before I spoke with them I had the same belief as you. My niece who is an accountant was in the same opinion.

[Will27]

hehehe Bar Talk. If there was ever a place to get the wrong advice it would be an Ex Pat Bar in Thailand. Blokes have been off the plane for 24 Hrs and think they know all the answers.

Having joined the military at 15, I have been on a Pension since I turned 35. Although the practise of paying Pensions to 20 Year Military Veterans ceased in the early nineties and no longer exists in the Australian Military today. IMHO it was the worst thing our government/s ever did. But this is another story.

However. There may be some element of truth in what you heard in the bar when it comes to Australian Taxation Laws.

If you intend to live outside of Australia permanently. I.E. Leaving no fixed address in Australia and declaring yourself a 'Non Resident For Taxation Purposes' AND if your Pension is being paid by an Australian Institution into an Australian Bank (which by law has to be paid this way) then the ATO will tax you from the first dollar you earn at the nominal rate! That's is, you will not receive the now $18,000 Dollar Tax Free Threshold. This can add up to a fair amount of money lost in Tax and cuts into your pension big time! Even if you claim it back at the end of the Tax Year. I have actually spoken to a high powered public servant in the Taxation Department about all this.

Department of Veteran Affairs (DVA) Pensions are also paid at the same rate to Vets living overseas, and receive all the rises and adjustments.

But the fair dinkum answer is NO. They do not deduct anything from your Australian Pension based on geographical location. You also get the same increases etc., as if you lived in Aust.

As for Dole/Welfare (different kettle of fish) there have been some changes there. if you are on a Centrelink Disability Pension you can now only spend 6 weeks at a time out of the country before they stop paying you. But this only affects the bludgers.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

I live permanently in Thailand. I receive a government superannuation pension. I contacted the the Taxation department and spoke to an officer in their superannuation department. I was advised that as I am a recipient of a government superannuation pension that I would always be a resident of Australia for taxation purposes. As such I get the Taxation Free Threshold. Only downside is I have to pay the medicare levy. When I fill out my taxation return I tick resident and give my Thailand address.

I hope you're right, but I've got a feeling you are wrong.

Australians tax system is based on self assessment so you're being assessed as a resident

because that is what you've ticked.

Unless you have something in writing from the ATO such as a ruling, you could be in for a rude shock.

If you're audited and the ATO claim you to be a non-resident for taxation purposes, which I think you are,

you will be taxed at 32.5% with no threshold.

That is a huge chunk of change and personally I don't think it's fair.

Regards

Will

When I spoke this the taxation department the decision that they quoted me is now linked to my tax file number. I was given a number which refers to the decision they made.

I spoke to an expert in their superannuation section.

Before I spoke with them I had the same belief as you. My niece who is an accountant was in the same opinion.

I am of the opinion that if you don't have a ruling in writing or basically anything in writing from the ATO,

you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you were the subject of a random audit or data matching.

So for example, if you asked for a private ruling in writing outlining your circumstances and they provided

you with an answer saying you're a resident for taxation purposes, that would be great.

But just asking for advice on the phone and being given a reference number to me, doesn't cut it.

AFAIK, the source of your income has no relevance at all as to whether or not you're a resident of Australia.

Based on your own admission, you're a non-resident but assume you're a resident for taxation purposes.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure that is not correct, but would love to be proved otherwise. I know a few people

in your situation and technically/legally they're non-residents. Ticking that you're a resident doesn't just make

you one.

Regards

Will