Surrounded By "enemy" Nationals On A Baht Bus; Confused As To Proper Etiquette

[Jingthing]

...

I was sitting by myself just wanting to cool down and move on, when one of them asks me where I came from. I give them a polite smile and tell them I'm from New Zealand. Without further ado, I get lambasted very strongly for a policy that my government had back in the 80's. That policy was to prohibit the visitation to our ports of any nuclear powered warships from any country. Back then, it was regarded by America as a snub and actually ended in our two countries breaking off military ties for a while.

...

I'll go out on a lamb (sorry ) limb here and assert that you can tell 99 percent of Americans that you are from New Zealand and have a happy time. Of course well over half won't even know what New Zealand is. Just bad luck you had with some sorry old rednecks. You can never tell I guess.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Jingthing

[rijb]

Gsxrnz -

Next time, stand up and loudly proclaim that Jane Fonda is a traitorous slut. And you're willing to fight anyone who disagrees. Real Vietnam Vets will smile and buy you a beer.

The U.S. has its share of idiots and loudmouths (many in the government). Don't let them skew your view.

There are many more Americans, at home, who are decent and appreciative. And they are the ones who have, and will continue, to put their lives on the line for their allies.

Edited June 1, 2013 by rijb

[mikemac]

JT is either very good at getting people going or he thinks too much. You were only pressured into engaging with them, not having group sex with them, get over it. You were bloody lucky your were not surrounded by drunk football hooligans who thought you were an enemy fan, that could have been serious.

Thanks for the laughs guys, have not laughed out loud like that for a while. The bloody sheep shagger from Pattaya has nothing to worry about. The Aussies have a lot more time for Kiwis than they think, we just don't want them to know.

[HOOD Robin]

I am American. I have met many Iranians here, but not drunk ones. They are all gracious people that I have met. If I meet one on a baht bus, I tell them "terrific. My government tells me you are my enemy. But I don't believe what my government tells me to do or think. Most governments are full of sh*t. Glad to meet you! My name is Emory. Are you enjoying Thailand?" This is done with genuine outgoing feeling. And they generally agree, and say their government full of it also. We have a good laugh, both feel good about the encounter, and a little bit of peace and understanding happens.

You don't know their politics. You are just guessing. With a large group of drunk people from a country in a long standing (MANY DECADES NOW) bitter conflict with your country, it's IDIOTIC to make such assumptions.

Jingthing i agree with you mate... ( i am sure the Iranian in the case above though by himself "what an <deleted>" )

[sustento]

Nooo not Iranians, they are not allowed to drink, so how could they have been intoxicated?

When we went back up to Bandar Shapour after the revolution the first question we were asked was 'Got any beer?'.

[Gsxrnz]

JT is either very good at getting people going or he thinks too much. You were only pressured into engaging with them, not having group sex with them, get over it. You were bloody lucky your were not surrounded by drunk football hooligans who thought you were an enemy fan, that could have been serious.

Thanks for the laughs guys, have not laughed out loud like that for a while. The bloody sheep shagger from Pattaya has nothing to worry about. The Aussies have a lot more time for Kiwis than they think, we just don't want them to know.

Cheers Mate.....but we know you don't want us to know!! Less of the sheep shagger or I might have to mention the underarm incident.

[DarrenLittlewood]

why would Iran be anti American... baffles me?

America really needs to start looking within and perhaps approach it's diplomacy in a different manner.

If you feel uncomfortable i'm guessing Iran feel uncomfortable too with half your navy pointing missiles at them just off their coast...

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/04/20/299282/north-korea-iran-expose-us-aggression/

[Groadie666]

I would like to ask all "Americans" (those from the US) to please never say your Canadian. We would want the rest of the world to think we are douche bags like you!! But if you are like most "Americans" (US) and you're only tough when in a crowd and you need to feel like you want to say your Canadian, it's ok because most Canadians hate "Americans" (US) too!! (Yes it's because of you idiot government and its "world policing")

[Jingthing]

why would Iran be anti American... baffles me?

America really needs to start looking within and perhaps approach it's diplomacy in a different manner.

If you feel uncomfortable i'm guessing Iran feel uncomfortable too with half your navy pointing missiles at them just off their coast...

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/04/20/299282/north-korea-iran-expose-us-aggression/

Thanks for posting the Russian propaganda. Russia and the USA are not really enemies, but definitely not friends either.

Yes, I understand, many Iranians feel justified to feel anti-American. That doesn't mean all of them are, but you just can't make too many assumptions either way with large groups of drunken strangers. Whatever they may feel, I still would be thrilled to see their theocratic regime toppled (from within); it doesn't hurt to wish.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Jingthing

[raro]

JT - I'm going to put a bit of a twist on your post.  I've had a similar situation in a small bar in the middle of the afternoon, just popped in to have a quick beer and sit under a fan to cool off.  I hadn't been to the bar before, but there were five blokes who were obviously regulars, obviously mates, obviously very drunk, and obviously somewhat opinionated in their group discussion. They were American.

 

I was sitting by myself just wanting to cool down and move on, when one of them asks me where I came from.  I give them a polite smile and tell them I'm from New Zealand.  Without further ado, I get lambasted very strongly for a policy that my government had back in the 80's.  That policy was to prohibit the visitation to our ports of any nuclear powered warships from any country.  Back then, it was regarded by America as a snub and actually ended in our two countries breaking off military ties for a while.

 

One of these guys remembered the nuclear thing (which is surprising because 80% of Americans I've met aren't sure which state NZ is in) and said some very unsavoury things about me, NZ'ers and Australians in general, the western allies as a whole, and any country that didn't have the balls to be able to stand up for itself blah blah blah.  They got very aggressive and very insulting, and they waved the "we saved your asses in WWI and WWII" card.  They spent 10 minutes basically telling me that America was the best country in the world and that every other country were cowards and should be thanking God that America was there to defend them.

 

During the 10 minutes it took me to down the beer and pay for it, I had only said "Hi I'm from NZ", and "check-bin".  As I was paying and leaving, the insults continued, to the point where I was called a chicken shit coward for not daring to argue with them and that I would be thanking them when "they" come and save my dipsh*t country from the commies.

 

They were all in their late 60's, I suspect Vietnam Vets judging from some of the comments.  I was scared, but more than that, the confrontation has since skewed my view of America....probably unjustifiably. Interestingly enough, they didn't say one thing that was actually good about America other than its military strength.  I also felt that no matter what country I said I was from, something similar would have happened.  They were just looking for an argument with somebody - probably because they'd all been agreeing with themselves all day as they got drunk.

 

I know its not a fair comparison to your baht bus incident, mainly because they were getting on a bit in years and I could have easily outpaced them if they became physically threatening (I'm a runner not a fighter). But it does go to show that alcohol amongst friends of any common ethnicity can and does bring out the tribal instincts and for whatever reason, can lead to any outsider being perceived as a threat. Not a physical threat, but a threat to the beliefs and ideologies of the group. I think you were correct to stay mute - not for the political reasons you mention, but simply because they were friends of the same ethnicity, were drunk, and could potentially have been violent.

how I love this particular breed of yanks

As a German you have to thank you for ww2, saving us from communism, as well as the introduction of coke and nylons.

Did the Brits ever thank us for running their country since sixteenhundredsomething?

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[sustento]

JT - I'm going to put a bit of a twist on your post. I've had a similar situation in a small bar in the middle of the afternoon, just popped in to have a quick beer and sit under a fan to cool off. I hadn't been to the bar before, but there were five blokes who were obviously regulars, obviously mates, obviously very drunk, and obviously somewhat opinionated in their group discussion. They were American.

I was sitting by myself just wanting to cool down and move on, when one of them asks me where I came from. I give them a polite smile and tell them I'm from New Zealand. Without further ado, I get lambasted very strongly for a policy that my government had back in the 80's. That policy was to prohibit the visitation to our ports of any nuclear powered warships from any country. Back then, it was regarded by America as a snub and actually ended in our two countries breaking off military ties for a while.

One of these guys remembered the nuclear thing (which is surprising because 80% of Americans I've met aren't sure which state NZ is in) and said some very unsavoury things about me, NZ'ers and Australians in general, the western allies as a whole, and any country that didn't have the balls to be able to stand up for itself blah blah blah. They got very aggressive and very insulting, and they waved the "we saved your asses in WWI and WWII" card. They spent 10 minutes basically telling me that America was the best country in the world and that every other country were cowards and should be thanking God that America was there to defend them.

During the 10 minutes it took me to down the beer and pay for it, I had only said "Hi I'm from NZ", and "check-bin". As I was paying and leaving, the insults continued, to the point where I was called a chicken shit coward for not daring to argue with them and that I would be thanking them when "they" come and save my dipsh*t country from the commies.

They were all in their late 60's, I suspect Vietnam Vets judging from some of the comments. I was scared, but more than that, the confrontation has since skewed my view of America....probably unjustifiably. Interestingly enough, they didn't say one thing that was actually good about America other than its military strength. I also felt that no matter what country I said I was from, something similar would have happened. They were just looking for an argument with somebody - probably because they'd all been agreeing with themselves all day as they got drunk.

I know its not a fair comparison to your baht bus incident, mainly because they were getting on a bit in years and I could have easily outpaced them if they became physically threatening (I'm a runner not a fighter). But it does go to show that alcohol amongst friends of any common ethnicity can and does bring out the tribal instincts and for whatever reason, can lead to any outsider being perceived as a threat. Not a physical threat, but a threat to the beliefs and ideologies of the group. I think you were correct to stay mute - not for the political reasons you mention, but simply because they were friends of the same ethnicity, were drunk, and could potentially have been violent.

how I love this particular breed of yanks

As a German you have to thank you for ww2, saving us from communism, as well as the introduction of coke and nylons.

Did the Brits ever thank us for running their country since sixteenhundredsomething?

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You can have the Royal Family back if you want. We're hanging onto the Queen though

[Jingthing]

As Pattaya is an international city, the "being surrounded by potential hostiles" paradigm could apply to a hearty mix of conflicting nationalities. The American - Iranians example represents only ONE such possibility.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Jingthing

[Devlin]

This is a ridiculous post thread. Sounds like a playground squabble. People are people, some are good, some are bad, some are rude, some are friendly. America is pretty much in conflict with everyone except America. So of course people from targeted countries won't want to shower you with rose petals. Ignore it and move on. If the pressure is too great, then holiday (sorry vacation) in the USA.

[HerbalEd]

Im sorry I wasted my time reading that

Then why did you waste even more time commenting on it?

Edited June 1, 2013 by HerbalEd

[Jingthing]

This is a ridiculous post thread. Sounds like a playground squabble. People are people, some are good, some are bad, some are rude, some are friendly. America is pretty much in conflict with everyone except America. So of course people from targeted countries won't want to shower you with rose petals. Ignore it and move on. If the pressure is too great, then holiday (sorry vacation) in the USA.

I live here so too late.

[Gsxrnz]

...

I was sitting by myself just wanting to cool down and move on, when one of them asks me where I came from. I give them a polite smile and tell them I'm from New Zealand. Without further ado, I get lambasted very strongly for a policy that my government had back in the 80's. That policy was to prohibit the visitation to our ports of any nuclear powered warships from any country. Back then, it was regarded by America as a snub and actually ended in our two countries breaking off military ties for a while.

...

I'll go out on a lamb (sorry ) limb here and assert that you can tell 99 percent of Americans that you are from New Zealand and have a happy time. Of course well over half won't even know what New Zealand is. Just bad luck you had with some sorry old rednecks. You can never tell I guess.

Top marks on the edit (lamb). Aussies call us sheep shaggers as a term of affection so no problems. We've got a range of endearing names for them as well.

Yeah I wasn't making this an American issue, really just highlighting the tribal instinct I've observed when an ethnic group is fuelled by alcohol and there is a potential for conflict with an "outsider". As somebody else said, the group could be football supporters, a school, even sportsbike riders v Harley riders.

And you're right about many Americans not knowing where NZ is. Most think it's somewhere near Seattle.

[StreetCowboy]

This is a ridiculous post thread. Sounds like a playground squabble. People are people, some are good, some are bad, some are rude, some are friendly. America is pretty much in conflict with everyone except America. So of course people from targeted countries won't want to shower you with rose petals. Ignore it and move on. If the pressure is too great, then holiday (sorry vacation) in the USA.

I live here so too late.

All the more reason to vacation in the USA.

[blaze]

One of the surprising things about Belgrade is that despite our airstrikes on that b eautiful city, is the good feelings for NOrth Americ a- and the reason is simple- same as IRan- almost every family has at least one relative living in the states-

This can not be said of Americans regarding Iran- very few non-IRanian Americans have relatives living in IRan- consequently Iran becomes 'the other'.

But for Iranians- America is where my cousin lives- (and where I hope to emmigrate)- not at all 'the other'.

And it is the concept of 'the other' that inspires the fear (caution) that this thread is about. America where my cousin lives, is not 'the other'. But for his American neighbors, I AM the other.

The other thing is that goverments in many countries do not represent the people- Iran being a case in point.

I wonder if JT, and I ask this respectfully, a European- or even Canadian- would have been so concerned? Even though we have the same foreign policy approach to the Iran gov't. I mean, do Americans almost expect varying degrees of hostility from most countries? I think many Americans would be surprised to find out that most people don't hate them- regardless of their foreign policy- Quit watching those old Yankee go Home clips from South America and the US flag burning clips from Pakistan-

[blackman]

As Pattaya is an international city, the "being surrounded by potential hostiles" paradigm could apply to a hearty mix of conflicting nationalities. The American - Iranians example represents only ONE such possibility.

that's true

opportunities for conflict arise everyday for me as i dislike pretty much everyone

[Devlin]

This is a ridiculous post thread. Sounds like a playground squabble. People are people, some are good, some are bad, some are rude, some are friendly. America is pretty much in conflict with everyone except America. So of course people from targeted countries won't want to shower you with rose petals. Ignore it and move on. If the pressure is too great, then holiday (sorry vacation) in the USA.

I live here so too late.

All the more reason to vacation in the USA.

Jingthing... As you live in Thailand, that's easy. "Where you come from?".... "Thailand". Problem solved, happy to help. :0)

[mikemac]

Well, I must admit when I first read the title of this thread I only saw "Surrounded by enemy nationals" and I thought - You beauty, a yarn about the SAS, Green Berets or Navy Seals etc. - Wasn't I to be disappointed ?

[pomchop]

Well, I would have got off the bus, there is another right behind it! I dont mingle with drunks, no matter what their nationality, color or sex. What is the point of it, if you feel uncomfortable, then get off, its very easy in Pattaya.

Some people here think that if you use your head, you are chicken $hit. Yeah, sometimes our instinct is wrong, but do you always need to prove yourself?

Best advice posted thus far.....a baht bus full of rowdy drunks of ANY nationality is not my idea of fun....ring the bell and get off...problem solved.

I have roamed the world for many years and have never had a serious problem because I AVOID confrontations.....when I see a situation that my instincts tell me could go bad I simply leave....whether a bar, a baht bus, or anywhere ....i prefer to live to see another day rather than try and be some kind of macho moron.

[pacharaphet]

There were multiple factors. The drunkenness and their large overwhelming numbers. They were definitely FRIENDLY but with all that booze, friendliness can turn. I suppose some people might say I'm American but I don't support my governments actions towards your country. But in my case that would be a LIE and I didn't even have the energy to play the Canuck card, much less lie about my politics.

Again, I'm sure many people are going to label this paranoid behavior. What would the American embassy advise, do you reckon? I'm sure they would advise: AVOID potential conflict of this nature to the best of your ability and that's what I did.

If you support the war, keep your mouth shut. It's not paranoia, it's legitimate fear.

I'm American as well, don't support the war and I'd probably still keep my mouth shut.

[Jingthing]

One of the surprising things about Belgrade is that despite our airstrikes on that b eautiful city, is the good feelings for NOrth Americ a- and the reason is simple- same as IRan- almost every family has at least one relative living in the states-

This can not be said of Americans regarding Iran- very few non-IRanian Americans have relatives living in IRan- consequently Iran becomes 'the other'.

But for Iranians- America is where my cousin lives- (and where I hope to emmigrate)- not at all 'the other'.

And it is the concept of 'the other' that inspires the fear (caution) that this thread is about. America where my cousin lives, is not 'the other'. But for his American neighbors, I AM the other.

The other thing is that goverments in many countries do not represent the people- Iran being a case in point.

I wonder if JT, and I ask this respectfully, a European- or even Canadian- would have been so concerned? Even though we have the same foreign policy approach to the Iran gov't. I mean, do Americans almost expect varying degrees of hostility from most countries? I think many Americans would be surprised to find out that most people don't hate them- regardless of their foreign policy- Quit watching those old Yankee go Home clips from South America and the US flag burning clips from Pakistan-

That's a wild exaggeration. There are less than half a million Americans of Iranian descent. That means that there aren't all that many families in Iran with close people in the USA.

Yes Americans do receive hostility in many countries including Europe, including Europeans in Pattaya, including here on this forum. The USA still has the most important economy in the world and has the strongest military. So they are a natural BIG and EASY target to blame.

No need to be condescending. I've traveled to well over 50 countries including some Islamic ones. I know the feeling of anti-American spit in my face and I also have experienced irrational America love or at least faking it. It is what it is.

I provided a link before. America is certainly not the most disliked country in the world though. According to that survery, that country is Iran.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Jingthing

[dressedingreen]

Next time, scream 'death to America'!! And throw stones at the lady.

So now we need to carry our passport, a clean pair of pants and a bag of stones when we go out for the night?

DIG

[Ulic]

As they were drunk, vacationing in Thailand, and spoke English it is highly unlikely they were

extreme fundamentalists. So while I think you were safe, you also took the wisest course of action.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Americans eh? USA I mean. If you have such a strong political view, have the strength of courage to express it.

Actually makes me feel slightly sick reading this thread. I had an opinion about the Palestinian situation and had no problem discussing it with any of the hoards of Israelis roaming around Thailand. Most of them simply suggested that it was 'complicated' without being able to enter in to any kind of coherent discussion.

Perhaps open discussion would have gleaned more information than you currently held. Discussing a subject with someone who already holds your view looks to be the way to extremism.

I discuss my views, in person, with those who may hold a different view. I think you a just a coward. Not meant to be an insult, just my opinion of how you behaved.

[StreetCowboy]

Americans eh? USA I mean. If you have such a strong political view, have the strength of courage to express it.

Actually makes me feel slightly sick reading this thread. I had an opinion about the Palestinian situation and had no problem discussing it with any of the hoards of Israelis roaming around Thailand. Most of them simply suggested that it was 'complicated' without being able to enter in to any kind of coherent discussion.

Perhaps open discussion would have gleaned more information than you currently held. Discussing a subject with someone who already holds your view looks to be the way to extremism.

I discuss my views, in person, with those who may hold a different view. I think you a just a coward. Not meant to be an insult, just my opinion of how you behaved.

Americans eh? USA I mean. If you have such a strong political view, have the strength of courage to express it.

Actually makes me feel slightly sick reading this thread. I had an opinion about the Palestinian situation and had no problem discussing it with any of the hoards of Israelis roaming around Thailand. Most of them simply suggested that it was 'complicated' without being able to enter in to any kind of coherent discussion.

Perhaps open discussion would have gleaned more information than you currently held. Discussing a subject with someone who already holds your view looks to be the way to extremism.

I discuss my views, in person, with those who may hold a different view. I think you a just a coward. Not meant to be an insult, just my opinion of how you behaved.

Normally when I encounter crowds of drunk blokes, I try and engage them in political discussion of a sensitive nature. Or I would if I was trying to cut down on my number of teeth.

SC

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Americans eh? USA I mean. If you have such a strong political view, have the strength of courage to express it.

Actually makes me feel slightly sick reading this thread. I had an opinion about the Palestinian situation and had no problem discussing it with any of the hoards of Israelis roaming around Thailand. Most of them simply suggested that it was 'complicated' without being able to enter in to any kind of coherent discussion.

Perhaps open discussion would have gleaned more information than you currently held. Discussing a subject with someone who already holds your view looks to be the way to extremism.

I discuss my views, in person, with those who may hold a different view. I think you a just a coward. Not meant to be an insult, just my opinion of how you behaved.

>Americans eh? USA I mean. If you have such a strong political view, have the strength of courage to express it.

Actually makes me feel slightly sick reading this thread. I had an opinion about the Palestinian situation and had no problem discussing it with any of the hoards of Israelis roaming around Thailand. Most of them simply suggested that it was 'complicated' without being able to enter in to any kind of coherent discussion.

Perhaps open discussion would have gleaned more information than you currently held. Discussing a subject with someone who already holds your view looks to be the way to extremism.

I discuss my views, in person, with those who may hold a different view. I think you a just a coward. Not meant to be an insult, just my opinion of how you behaved.

Normally when I encounter crowds of drunk blokes, I try and engage them in political discussion of a sensitive nature. Or I would if I was trying to cut down on my number of teeth.

SC

What I meant is that I wouldn't deny my nationality. If they asked more I wouldn't avoid the subject if it was what I believed. They would then have the opportunity to refute my beliefs.

[fakename]

I just dont think that you discuss your political or religious beliefs with a baht bus full of drunks! I dont even discuss these things with my friends, when they are drunk, whats the point?