Visit Visa

[cleverD]

I have trying to help a mate get a visit visa after he had one refused in april 2005.First a bit of history he met his GF in april 2004 and applied for a settlement Visa in Dec.2004 he was very naive about UK Visa's and he was obviously refused.

He applied for a Visit Visa in april 2005 but was refused on the grounds,

1/ no reason to return

2/ no assets

Since this application his GF has been given a large piece of land and she has the Chanot in her name.

I thought this would help solve the assets problem and also owning land usually helps towards reason for return.

She made the application yesterday and was intrviewed in the morning for 15 minutes and asked to come back at 2 oclock and had another 30 minute interview.She has told me they asked a lot of questions about her boyfriend and his family which she was able to answer honestly and correct,this is a transcript of her refusal

You have applied for entry clearanc to the UK as a VISITOR FOR FIVE WEEKS

BUT: I am not satisfied on the balance of probabilities,that you meet the requirements of paragraph 41 of the immigration rules and in particular that you are genuinely seeking entry to the UK as a visitor for a limited period.

BECAUSE: You have told me that you wish to visit the UK as a tourist for five weeks.You live with your parents,your brother and your daughter and you earn a modest living from making and selling artificial flowers.

I note that in December 2004 you applied to settle in the UK but that this application failed.I also note that you applied to visitthe UK in April 2006 but this application also failed.The only change in your circumstances since then appears to be that you now own some land.

Your trip to the UK is being paid for by your boyfriend who lives in Wales.

However,apart from being in the UK for his birthday,there appears to be little that you wish to see or do whilst there.In light of the fact that you applied to settle in the UK in December 2004,that you are living in your parents home with your childand earning a modest wage,and that this trip is to be paid for by your sponser in the UK where there appears llittle that you wish to see or to do.I am not satisfied,on the balance of probabilities,that you are now genuinely seeking entry to the UK as a visitor for a limited period__

I THEREFORE REFUSE YOUR APPLICATION

________________________________________________________________________________

________

Right at the bottom of the notice just above the ECO signature :

THE DECISION IN THIS CASE WILL NOT PREJUDICE ANY SUBSEQUENT APPLICATION SHOULD YOU WISH TO REAPPLY AT A FUTURE DATE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They made a mistake appling for a settlement Visa first ( he's not the sharpest tool)but now they seem stuffed,and no they hadn't planned too much for her holiday until they secured a Visa.

Can we get the ECO to review ?

She now has 3 little stamps in the back of her passport.

Any serious help or suggestions please.

[GU22]

They can ask for a review, but don't expect too much.

Previous refusals do not necessarily effect subsequent applications, but the reasons for any previous refusal have to be dealt with for any subsequent application to be successful.

It would help a lot if you could say why the original settlement visa was refused. I assume that as they are not married the original settlement application was as a fiance. Reading between the lines I assume that they did this as they were told that a fiance visa is easier to get than a visit visa. Was it refused because the relationship was too short?

It also seems suspicious that she has suddenly acquired land between the 2 visit applications. How did she come by this land? Did she tell the ECO how she acquired it? Did the boyfriend buy it ?

A lot of assumptions on my part, so I could very well be completely wide of the mark. If you can get your friend to post more details of the relationship (how long they've known each other, how many times he's visited her, what contact they've had, etc.) and the reasons for the settlement refusal; then we should be able to advise further.

Based on this, it seems as if the ECO does not believe the relationship to be genuine and that she is using him merely to gain entry to the UK.

[GU22]

Important point I should have mentioned.

In Dec 2004 she said that she wanted to come to the UK to marry him and live here permanently. April 2005 she says that she only wants to visit. Again, she now only wants to visit.

What's changed? Why doesn't she want to live with him in the UK anymore?

[the scouser]

From what you've written, it would appear that your friend and his g/f did not appeal the settlement visa refusal. If this is so, then the ECO can infer that your friend evidently agreed with the decision, otherwise an appeal would have been lodged.

Basically, she will need to convincingly explain to the visa officer why, when her circumstances haven't considerably changed, she no longer wishes to settle in the UK. Land ownership can act as an incentive to return, but once an applicant has stated their intention to settle in the UK it is unlikely that the visa officer will subsequently accept they intend only to visit irrespective of how much land they now own.

Failing all else, is your friend, as well as being British, a citizen of another EU country too?

Scouse.

[cleverD]

They met in April 2004 and he has visited 8 times since.I think yiu are right about him being wrongly advised about which visa to apply for but at the time I think he was keen for her to come and live in the UK but they both now realise it would that because of her 4 year old daughter it is better that he visits Thailand.He is self employed and does visit for a month at a time.

She inherited the land from her grandmother but had to wait until her brother was 20 years old before the land could be divided,just coincidence it has happened at this time.

She now genuinely only wants a holiday but it now appears her previous applications are predjucing her ability to get a Visa.

I went through all the paperwork and felt reasonably confident of her being successful and I don't think she made any mistakes in the interviews other than not being able to tell the ECO what she was gioing to do when in UK,she was hardly able to make many plans with no Visa!!!!

Thanks GU22 for your interest and replies

[cleverD]

They actually did appeal and the hearing was set for april 20th.He was originally refused on the length of his relationship and as they don't fulfil the criteria for a settlement Visa I advised him to withdraw the appeal which she did at the same time as she made the application at the Embassy.

He is not a citizen of another EU country but i'm ###### sure he wishes he was!!!!

[silomfan]

You say she made no real mistakes at the interview but it seems to me she did make one big one. Considering she was asking to go for 5 weeks , she could have put more thought into what she was going to do once in the UK. I am no fan of the ECO's as most here know, but this couple really ought to have thought about this very basic question . On a vv of course they are going to ask what you plan to do for x number of weeks and it is wrong to say you can't plan before you get the visa. Sure you can .

From reading the refusal , it looks like they placed a lot of emphasis on this lack of simple planning . Also if the land has been aquired from grandmother it won't be difficult to get proof of this or the dates it was aquired. This document will add some dredability to her case when she re-applies.

SILOMFAN

[silomfan]

For "dredability" please read "credibility "!!

[the scouser]

To be honest, your friend would have been best continuing with the appeal: at least he could have appeared at the hearing and publicly aired his affections for his girlfriend. He could have also explained to the immigration judge that circumstances had moved on and settlement was no longer intended, but that he still wished the circumstances of the visa refusal to be considered.

Scouse.

[GU22]

It seems she has good answers to the questions I raised, but did she tell the ECO.

at the time I think he was keen for her to come and live in the UK but they both now realise it would that because of her 4 year old daughter it is better that he visits Thailand.

Why? Lots of British men have successfully obtained settlement visas for their wife/fiance and her child(ren). Me, for instance.

If they genuinely want to be together then it seems to me that they should get married and then apply for a spouse visa for her and a child settlement visa for the child. At the age of 4 the child should find settling into a Welsh school painless. Think of other advantages, how many Thai/English/Welsh speakers are there?

Of course, he may have good reasons for not wanting to marry her, and she may have good reasons for not wanting to marry him.

[caledonia]

You say she made no real mistakes at the interview but it seems to me she did make one big one. Considering she was asking to go for 5 weeks , she could have put more thought into what she was going to do once in the UK. I am no fan of the ECO's as most here know, but this couple really ought to have thought about this very basic question . On a vv of course they are going to ask what you plan to do for x number of weeks and it is wrong to say you can't plan before you get the visa. Sure you can .

From reading the refusal , it looks like they placed a lot of emphasis on this lack of simple planning . Also if the land has been aquired from grandmother it won't be difficult to get proof of this or the dates it was aquired. This document will add some dredability to her case when she re-applies.

SILOMFAN

In fairness to them, it has already been established there was not a lot of information sought out before the application and when you are visiting someone you are in a relationship with do they really expect you to be going on a tour of local tourist sites too!! I mean his girlffiend had already applied for a settlement visa so the relationship is no secret - I imagine she probably said she would be seeing him and his family - is this not enough planning? The first time I visited my hubby in his home country the last thing I did was look at tourist sites - far too much family and friends to meet! Being able to jot down an itinery from a Lonely Planet surely does not mean you are more likely to return home!

Sorry don't mean to pick up on such a point but it really bugs me that ECO's use this to weed out 'fake' tourists. Having watched a few of the old 'airport' documentaries with the Scouse ECO at Heathrow (so not anyone we know surely as wrong London airport!! ) asking people what sites they are visiting. Seems if people say Big Ben and Buckinngham Palace that is not much planning as everyone knows about them - phew just as well they didn't quiz me the first time I landed in LOS - my knowledge of any tourist sites was nil and it was just a quick trip I got on the cheap!

Anyway - sorry got a bit sidetracked!! This does seem to be a rather confusing process as the settlement visa app came first - in my IMHO I would think it would not hurt to write a covering letter to ask for a review explaining why a settlement visa is not being sought and how the girlf came accross the land. There is no right of appeal with a visitor visa so it is the only chance to have it looked at again without starting the whole process again - very unfortunate that the appeal was abandonned though - as Scouser said.

[cleverD]

Thanks for your replies,my mate has just got divorced and whilst he cares a lot for his GF I don't think he wants to rush into marriage just to get a visa.

I was under the impression that to qualify for a settlement visa you had to be living as husband and wife and certainly intend to be married,and to have continued with the appeal would have been a waste of everyones time and what good would it be convincing the appeal judge who would have no juisdiction over an application for a visit visa.

[vinny]

The Unmarried partners visa is a type of settlement visa where marriage is not necessary.

[GU22]

Thanks for your replies,my mate has just got divorced and whilst he cares a lot for his GF I don't think he wants to rush into marriage just to get a visa.

Very sensible of him. Shame he didn't think of this back in 2004.

As he was, presumably, still married at the time, then continuing with the appeal would certainly have been a waste of time. In order to sponsor a fiance visa one must be free to marry!. It is possible to sponsor a FV before receiving the decree absolute, provided that one can show that you will have received it in time to marry before the FV expires. Maybe this is why the FV application failed? It certainly would have failed had the ECO been aware that he was still married to someone else at the time.

I was under the impression that to qualify for a settlement visa you had to be living as husband and wife and certainly intend to be married

Depends on the type of visa.

Fiance Visa: Have to show that you intend to marry within the life of the visa, i.e. 6 months.

Spouse Visa; Have to be legally married.

Unmarried Partners Visa; Have to have been living together in a relationship akin to marriage for at least the preceding 2 years.

Civil Partners Visa: Similar to a Fiance Visa, but for same sex couples.

All I can suggest is that she tries again for a visit visa. Your friend should write a covering letter explaining the entire circumstances of the preceding applications, with special reference to the bad advice he received which prompted the FV application. He should clearly state that she, at this time, merely wants to visit in order to meet your family and get to see a little of where you live before you both decide whether to make a more permanent commitment to each other.

Best of luck, I think he's going to need it.