Being Disrespectful To An Immigration Officer = Permanent Denial Of An Ed Visa Extension

[GrantSmith]

So what your saying Jingthing is to take the piss, without actually taking the piss?

[MacWalen]

I suppose the be all and end all of this is the reason why the papers were rejected: was it because they were illegible/ineligible as in an unhygenic state?, or did the officer make some overbearing decision about the quality of the applicant?

The whole incident doesn't reflect well on the student, possibly the Immigration Dept, and in particular the school involved.

The school should have realised this is a paying guest. In business it's never a good idea to shame your customers. They had the time to reflect cooly, unlike the applicant or the officer. They could have sought some form of mitigation which would have reflected well on the applicant and the institution alike. Clearly they made a judgement call against the student, and worse still possibly added to his woes by outing him on this site perhaps in front of his peers. in school report parlance 'could do better'.

Yes we are guests, but paying guests !!!

When I go in to a friend's place, it's usually as an equal and with a sense that they want me there, perhaps the student sensed this wasn't the case in Thailand, many have also sensed this, and that puts the individual in an anxious position.

Walen School takes very good care of our students. Something like this has not happened before. Let it be a lesson to others as now we know that they may not extend your visa if you behave badly. If you think it reflects poorly on our school it is up to you. Also in all honestly, I don't want such students.

[Jingthing]

Students behaving poorly like that would reflect poorly on any school, especially a school so closely economically linked to the generally very EASY ED visa system. so of course you don't.

I thank the OP for the report. It's lesson is of value as a reminder to ALL extension applicants. It's bigger than ED.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[Mario2008]

1 off topic response removed.

[lostmebike]

We need to hear the students version of those events as well.

Sure we do.

If he was really that stupid, then serves him right but we should hear his side before judgement

[Time Traveller]

What if an immigration officer is disrespectful to a forreigner? Is that behavior or sometimes even attitude a licensens for granted residency? No way! So I would say in a situation where a proffesional (immigration officer) and a client have to meet each other about sensitive matters easily some frustration on both sides can occur. The professional should be capable to handle the obvious emotions, like police officers are trained to cope with them and still within limits adress the client in a tolerant way.

A restaurant chef told his fellow cooks: Don't think we feed our guests. No, they feed us! Same with the immigration officers. If there were no forreigners in LOS they didn't have a job... So, be grateful they are here.

But in Thailand public servants don't serve the people who pay their wages, the people are there purely to serve the "public servants" and feed their egos.

[MacWalen]

What if an immigration officer is disrespectful to a forreigner? Is that behavior or sometimes even attitude a licensens for granted residency? No way! So I would say in a situation where a proffesional (immigration officer) and a client have to meet each other about sensitive matters easily some frustration on both sides can occur. The professional should be capable to handle the obvious emotions, like police officers are trained to cope with them and still within limits adress the client in a tolerant way.

A restaurant chef told his fellow cooks: Don't think we feed our guests. No, they feed us! Same with the immigration officers. If there were no forreigners in LOS they didn't have a job... So, be grateful they are here.

But in Thailand public servants don't serve the people who pay their wages, the people are there purely to serve the "public servants" and feed their egos.

Extreme views you have. There are certainly cases of abuse but overall the country works pretty well. If you want a drivers licence, passport, ID etc., efficient and reasonably fast service. Also the police does excellent job, dont tell me you do not feel safe in Thailand? Very little crime as I see it. I say not to bad at all.

Edited June 6, 2013 by MacWalen

[harrry]

It looks as if you may have to change your website a little.

"

Do you guarantee that I'll receive a 1 year non-immigrant ED visa?

Yes, we do.

Edited June 6, 2013 by harrry

[Tywais]

I looks as if you may have to change yur website a little.

"

Do you guarantee that I'll receive a 1 year non-immigrant ED visa?

Yes, we do.

Perhaps change to - Yes, we do except when a student is being a prat at immigration.

[delh]

...

Nobody expects that the applicant will bootlick or beg, but ordinary politeness, and even some small measure of respect, yes respect, isn't too much to expect, is it? It shouldn't be part of the immigration officer job description that they have to put up with insulting, aggressive behavior like this. If it were me behind the desk, I'd be wondering, too, if a guy who behaves this way is someone who Thai citizens should have to tolerate among them.

...

You're confusing issues. Applicants shouldn't be disrespectful to officers, and also, officers shouldn't be disrespectful to applicants.

I totally agree, we NEED to show respect to officers EVEN if/when they show disrespect to us for no rational reasons, and YES, that does happen sometimes whether the rose colored glasses set accepts that or not. They do not NEED to show respect to us.

OK, some of you may be very lucky or have very limited experience, perhaps at a small office without any twisted officers. So it's perhaps understandable you might conclude incidents where officers are unjustly disrespectful to applicants never happens, but that would be faulty logic.

My apparently raw-nerve-hitting use of the phrase 'kowtowing attitude' was merely a bit of literary flourish to indicate showing RESPECT. When deserved and when not deserved, because if officers show us disrespect for no good reason, they don't really DESERVE respect as human beings, but we still should give it for our own sake because of the POWER situation.

I obviously never questioned that the applicant story in the OP, assuming it is accurate, behaved in such a way that the consequences weren't sadly deserved.

Each to their own. For me, respect should be as a matter of course, not just to gain. There is a big difference.

[Jasun]

I think the lessons here apply not just to immigration officers, but any official from a govt dept or agency who has the potential to make your stay in the Kingdom a very short or unpleasant one.

[Jingthing]

Each to their own. For me, respect should be as a matter of course, not just to gain. There is a big difference.

I'm trying to picture this. All these foreigners going into immigration to ... pay their deeply felt sincere RESPECTS to random stranger policemen? I could see if the officer is your buddy or something. Do some people think police are their friends? (Hint: they're police, that makes you a SUSPECT.)

I'm sorry, this is Thailand ... the SURFACE is the thing. What you're thinking, NOBODY CARES. Unless it's not nice and you can't hide it.

I admit it! When I go into immigration for extensions, the ONLY purpose of my visit is to get the extension. That is all.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[BradinAsia]

I don't think in general the officers are looking for a social interaction, perhaps in the smaller deader offices, but certainly not in Jomtien.

They are not looking to be treated as you want to be treated.

They are looking for RESPECT and they are looking for clues that you are aware of their power over you, which in a sense means in this transaction they are SUPERIOR to you, and it doesn't hurt if you convey that in your attitude.

You may have 100 times more money/income than them, and they will know it from your documents in many cases, but for transactions at immigration, you are the vulnerable peasant. If you convey clues that you think YOU are superior to them, that might be a trigger to some of the officers.

By "kowtowing attitude" and I have already explained this, I never meant LITERAL kowtowing in the physical sense.

But little clues of your awareness of their power over you are signs of respect. For example, handing the documents to the officer with both hands in a slow semi-formal way.

Yes OF COURSE all the obvious things, be clean, be dressed decently, be polite, do not raise your voice or voice demands, prepare all your documents correctly to the best of your ability.

Doing all that increases your odds of no trouble, but even being perfect, you still might have trouble (wrong side of the bed again?) and if so, the OP here is a reminder to STILL always remain calm or you'll make it worse.

Jingthing, you obviously have long experience in Thailand.

What puzzles me is your reference to the immigration officer looking for respect even though the farang's income level may be 100 times greater. Quite frankly, this would seem to indicate that some farangs have such an idea due to their own psychological hangup about needing to be polite to someone they see as lower status. This, in spite of the fact that the politeness called for here is simple, normal, basic human etiquette. No rocket science involved.

Based on my experiences and those of folks I've known during my 26 years of living, working and traveling in Asia, it seems fairly obvious if the immigration officer appears to have a chip on his shoulder vis-a-vis the farang applicant he has likely earned that chip 1,000 times over. We only need to consider the untold number of clueless farangs he has had to deal with. The immigration officer is providing a service that the farang needs, but the farang simply doesn't get it -- all he needs to do is to be basically polite and undemanding.

The relative economic status between the immigration officer and the farang should be totally irrelevant. Having said that, as another poster mentioned, the most difficult and unfriendly immigration officers I have ever encountered were in my own country.

[Time Traveller]

What if an immigration officer is disrespectful to a forreigner? Is that behavior or sometimes even attitude a licensens for granted residency? No way! So I would say in a situation where a proffesional (immigration officer) and a client have to meet each other about sensitive matters easily some frustration on both sides can occur. The professional should be capable to handle the obvious emotions, like police officers are trained to cope with them and still within limits adress the client in a tolerant way.

A restaurant chef told his fellow cooks: Don't think we feed our guests. No, they feed us! Same with the immigration officers. If there were no forreigners in LOS they didn't have a job... So, be grateful they are here.

But in Thailand public servants don't serve the people who pay their wages, the people are there purely to serve the "public servants" and feed their egos.

Extreme views you have. There are certainly cases of abuse but overall the country works pretty well. If you want a drivers licence, passport, ID etc., efficient and reasonably fast service. Also the police does excellent job, dont tell me you do not feel safe in Thailand? Very little crime as I see it. I say not to bad at all.

Well, since the topic is about immigration, I'll avoid commenting on how "fast and efficient" it is to get a drivers license or just how the police do an excellent job. Overall it's good compared with worse countries.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, you obviously have long experience in Thailand.

What puzzles me is your reference to the immigration officer looking for respect even though the farang's income level may be 100 times greater. Quite frankly, this would seem to indicate that some farangs have such an idea due to their own psychological hangup about needing to be polite to someone they see as lower status. This, in spite of the fact that the politeness called for here is simple, normal, basic human etiquette. No rocket science involved.

Based on my experiences and those of folks I've known during my 26 years of living, working and traveling in Asia, it seems fairly obvious if the immigration officer appears to have a chip on his shoulder vis-a-vis the farang applicant he has likely earned that chip 1,000 times over. We only need to consider the untold number of clueless farangs he has had to deal with. The immigration officer is providing a service that the farang needs, but the farang simply doesn't get it -- all he needs to do is to be basically polite and undemanding.

The relative economic status between the immigration officer and the farang should be totally irrelevant. Having said that, as another poster mentioned, the most difficult and unfriendly immigration officers I have ever encountered were in my own country.

It tells me something that as a foreigner you use the word f-rang so much.

If an immigration officer has become twisted and irrationally prejudiced against ALL western foreigners because of bad experiences with SOME foreigners, that is hardly the fault of the next totally BLAMELESS foreigner who approaches that officer's desk.

Surely you are not suggesting that ALL or even MOST western foreigners are behaving badly at immigration offices, are you?

I find your overall message very weird.

It's like you're saying there are a lot of hostile officers because us f-rangs as a collective DESERVE IT (that's absurd, dude). If what you say is true, it's actually reinforcement for what I have suggested. Assume some officers are irrationally hostile towards some applicants, and do your very best not to make it worse for yourself, and yes in my opinion showing clues of a kowtowing attitude is more HELPFUL than not.

As far as the story in the OP, that's a case where a SPECIFIC foreigner reportedly did something objectively very wrong, and most of us totally understand the consequences of that specific bad behavior. Being a liberal kind of guy, I would hope that applicant could pay for his mistake in some other way than being denied an extension, but the denial can be RATIONALLY justified.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[delh]

Each to their own. For me, respect should be as a matter of course, not just to gain. There is a big difference.

I'm trying to picture this. All these foreigners going into immigration to ... pay their deeply felt sincere RESPECTS to random stranger policemen? I could see if the officer is your buddy or something. Do some people think police are their friends? (Hint: they're police, that makes you a SUSPECT.)

I'm sorry, this is Thailand ... the SURFACE is the thing. What you're thinking, NOBODY CARES. Unless it's not nice and you can't hide it.

I admit it! When I go into immigration for extensions, the ONLY purpose of my visit is to get the extension. That is all.

I'm not sure anyone here has suggested anyone goes to the immigration office to pay respect.. I certainly haven't. If you want to make things up to support your comments, thats your choice. Its a nonsensical image you suggest. I personally have stated that in my opinion, respect is a matter of course. Thats all. And there is a big difference between this to showing respect for your own gain. Which isn't respect at all.

Edited June 6, 2013 by delh

[Jingthing]

Each to their own. For me, respect should be as a matter of course, not just to gain. There is a big difference.

I'm trying to picture this. All these foreigners going into immigration to ... pay their deeply felt sincere RESPECTS to random stranger policemen? I could see if the officer is your buddy or something. Do some people think police are their friends? (Hint: they're police, that makes you a SUSPECT.)

I'm sorry, this is Thailand ... the SURFACE is the thing. What you're thinking, NOBODY CARES. Unless it's not nice and you can't hide it.

I admit it! When I go into immigration for extensions, the ONLY purpose of my visit is to get the extension. That is all.

I'm not sure anyone here has suggested anyone goes to the immigration office to pay respect.. I certainly haven't. If you want to make things up to support your comments, thats your choice. Its a nonsensical image you suggest. I personally have stated that in my opinion, respect is a matter of course. Thats all. And there is a big difference between this to showing respect for your own gain. Which isn't respect at all.

It's make no difference what you're thinking inside. It's all about the surface behavior. If some official behaves rudely to you and you can't see any rational reason for that, do you SERIOUSLY feel internal respect for that person as a human being? OK, if you do, but that sounds kind of masochistic to me.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[delh]

Each to their own. For me, respect should be as a matter of course, not just to gain. There is a big difference.

I'm trying to picture this. All these foreigners going into immigration to ... pay their deeply felt sincere RESPECTS to random stranger policemen? I could see if the officer is your buddy or something. Do some people think police are their friends? (Hint: they're police, that makes you a SUSPECT.)

I'm sorry, this is Thailand ... the SURFACE is the thing. What you're thinking, NOBODY CARES. Unless it's not nice and you can't hide it.

I admit it! When I go into immigration for extensions, the ONLY purpose of my visit is to get the extension. That is all.

I'm not sure anyone here has suggested anyone goes to the immigration office to pay respect.. I certainly haven't. If you want to make things up to support your comments, thats your choice. Its a nonsensical image you suggest. I personally have stated that in my opinion, respect is a matter of course. Thats all. And there is a big difference between this to showing respect for your own gain. Which isn't respect at all.

It's make no difference what you're thinking inside. It's all about the surface behavior. If some official behaves rudely to you and you can't see any rational reason for that, do you SERIOUSLY feel internal respect for that person as a human being? OK, if you do, but that sounds kind of masochistic to me.

That is your point of view. Mine is different. Lets agree to disagree shall we?

[Jingthing]

It's make no difference what you're thinking inside. It's all about the surface behavior. If some official behaves rudely to you and you can't see any rational reason for that, do you SERIOUSLY feel internal respect for that person as a human being? OK, if you do, but that sounds kind of masochistic to me.

That is your point of view. Mine is different. Lets agree to disagree shall we?

No problem, but I really am curious about people who claim they feel respect for officials who treat them rudely for no reason. I don't accept the argument that that never happens, because I KNOW it happens sometimes. Anyway, I'm saying whether you feel it inside or not, show signs of it, deserved or not, because you're the applicant and your life here is on the line at immigration.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[delh]

It's make no difference what you're thinking inside. It's all about the surface behavior. If some official behaves rudely to you and you can't see any rational reason for that, do you SERIOUSLY feel internal respect for that person as a human being? OK, if you do, but that sounds kind of masochistic to me.

That is your point of view. Mine is different. Lets agree to disagree shall we?

No problem, but I really am curious about people who claim they feel respect for officials who treat them rudely for no reason. I don't accept the argument that that never happens, because I KNOW it happens sometimes. Anyway, I'm saying whether you feel it inside or not, show signs of it, deserved or not, because you're the applicant and your life here is on the line at immigration.

Maybe its about showing respect for all, not just immigration officers. That includes showing respect for a point of view that may be different to your own.

Edited June 6, 2013 by delh

[Jingthing]

Maybe its about showing respect for all, not just immigration officers. That includes showing respect for a point of view that may be different to your own.

I was just trying to clarify what that point of view of yours actually is in regards to the question of FEELING respect to people who might treat you badly for no rational reason. But if you don't want to discuss it further, that's your choice. I think most people don't naturally feel respect for ALL people if the specific people in question have done something seriously not deserving of respect.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[jrtmedic]

Respect ?

Here is a good reference on the subject!

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/respect/

[Arkady]

The student will not be blacklisted, that is a whole process that includes very senior officials and carries an appeal.

Which is not to say the student can try to extend.

Good point Mario. Blacklisting has to go to a higher level and there needs to be a substantive reason for it that would stand up to review by the Commander, if there were an appeal. It also involves deportation and being made persona non grata. You cannot be blacklisted by Immigration and remain freely in the country. This just sounds like an Immigration officer indulging in abuse of authority. If she really had the authority blacklist some one, why would she bother to call the school and tell them not provide documentation for the guy again? Most likely she just wants to intimidate the school not to issue him with new documentation. If this character submitted his paperwork again for an Ed visa in good order without dropping in a puddle or pissing on it first, they would have no reason to reject him.

I am not condoning uncivil behaviour towards Immigration officers or anyone else. Just encouraging an objective logical analysis of the legal position which doesn't support the positions taken by the officer or MacWalen.

It's also worth remembering that Thailand is very much a form over substance country. Things need to look neat and tidy on the surface but it often doesn't matter what filth and corruption is lurking inside. Thai teachers are very picky about the appearance of work submitted by students. As long as it looks nice in good handwriting without any scratchings out, it is good and it doesn't matter, if it was plagiarised from the internet or copied from another student. The same goes for application forms and anything submitted to government officials. It might be a pack of lies but should look good.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Arkady

[delh]

Maybe its about showing respect for all, not just immigration officers. That includes showing respect for a point of view that may be different to your own.

I was just trying to clarify what that point of view of yours actually is in regards to the question of FEELING respect to people who might treat you badly for no rational reason. But if you don't want to discuss it further, that's your choice. I think most people don't naturally feel respect for ALL people if the specific people in question have done something seriously not deserving of respect.

In your first post on the subject (#3) you conclude that as a result of the incident, there is no reason to consider ourselves as guests in Thailand. As I wasn't born in Thailand ,nor have a Thai passport,I disagree with you. You now tell me your opinion of what most people don't think. I prefer to let others personally tell me what they think. Is that OK with you?

Edited June 6, 2013 by delh

[lopburi3]

Two flame posts removed. No more.

[jrtmedic]

Arkady

"Pork Barrel" politics in the USA and money paid for questions asked in Parliament (UK) are good examples of the corruption which occurs on a daily basis in the West.

Maybe in Asia the problem is more open and therefore more easily dealt with?

Edited June 6, 2013 by jrtmedic

[BradinAsia]

Jingthing, you obviously have long experience in Thailand.

What puzzles me is your reference to the immigration officer looking for respect even though the farang's income level may be 100 times greater. Quite frankly, this would seem to indicate that some farangs have such an idea due to their own psychological hangup about needing to be polite to someone they see as lower status. This, in spite of the fact that the politeness called for here is simple, normal, basic human etiquette. No rocket science involved.

Based on my experiences and those of folks I've known during my 26 years of living, working and traveling in Asia, it seems fairly obvious if the immigration officer appears to have a chip on his shoulder vis-a-vis the farang applicant he has likely earned that chip 1,000 times over. We only need to consider the untold number of clueless farangs he has had to deal with. The immigration officer is providing a service that the farang needs, but the farang simply doesn't get it -- all he needs to do is to be basically polite and undemanding.

The relative economic status between the immigration officer and the farang should be totally irrelevant. Having said that, as another poster mentioned, the most difficult and unfriendly immigration officers I have ever encountered were in my own country.

It tells me something that as a foreigner you use the word f-rang so much.

If an immigration officer has become twisted and irrationally prejudiced against ALL western foreigners because of bad experiences with SOME foreigners, that is hardly the fault of the next totally BLAMELESS foreigner who approaches that officer's desk.

Surely you are not suggesting that ALL or even MOST western foreigners are behaving badly at immigration offices, are you?

I find your overall message very weird.

It's like you're saying there are a lot of hostile officers because us f-rangs as a collective DESERVE IT (that's absurd, dude). If what you say is true, it's actually reinforcement for what I have suggested. Assume some officers are irrationally hostile towards some applicants, and do your very best not to make it worse for yourself, and yes in my opinion showing clues of a kowtowing attitude is more HELPFUL than not.

As far as the story in the OP, that's a case where a SPECIFIC foreigner reportedly did something objectively very wrong, and most of us totally understand the consequences of that specific bad behavior. Being a liberal kind of guy, I would hope that applicant could pay for his mistake in some other way than being denied an extension, but the denial can be RATIONALLY justified.

I found your overall message a bit weird too, but was trying show you a bit of politeness.

You quibble about my use of the word farang even though it is surely a lot less confusing term for TV members than your use of the word kowtow, for example.

It surely goes without saying that the average foreign tourist or expat in Thailand will encounter an immigration officer at most a few times a year. On the other hand, an immigration officer is likely to deal with foreigners maybe 100 times or more a day. I don't assume or much less suggest that most foreigners are crude. Even if only a few percent of foreigners are testy or arrogant, it's not difficult to understand who (the foreigner or the immigration officer) is more likely to have their patience pushed beyond the limit by inappropriate behavior.

Obviously, the immigration officers position is many times more difficult than that of the foreigner who he deals with.

Also, you make a lot of unwarranted assumptions about my post. Your hostility to others may be the underlying message here.

I have found that nearly without exception courtesy begets courtesy, whereas a surly attitude does not.

[Jingthing]

I have found that nearly without exception courtesy begets courtesy, whereas a surly attitude does not.

Indeed. As I have asserted consistently, do NOT be surly to immigration officers even if THEIR behavior inspires that. Always be respectful to them. No Matter What. Because they've got the stamp. Cheers.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[BradinAsia]

I have found that nearly without exception courtesy begets courtesy, whereas a surly attitude does not.

Indeed. As I have asserted consistently, do NOT be surly to immigration officers even if THEIR behavior inspires that. Always be respectful to them. No Matter What. Because they've got the stamp. Cheers.

Thank heaven we agree on something...

Cheers to you.

[Arkady]

Arkady

"Pork Barrel" politics in the USA and money paid for questions asked in Parliament (UK) are good examples of the corruption which occurs on a daily basis in the West.

Maybe in Asia the problem is more open and therefore more easily dealt with?

It is more open in Asia but not necessarily easier to deal with as a result. In Thailand it is so pervasive that it gets into every little nook and cranny and it is getting worse by leaps and bounds and becoming more accepted by Thai society, since ordinary citizens are duped by politicians into believing they somehow benefit. Ultimately it results in a massive wastage of taxpayers money and Thailand's tax revenue to GDP is already piss poor relative to more developed economies. Not only are projects hugely overpriced but projects that should never see the light of day are proposed and approved by government, based purely on their graft potential. There are glaring examples of this behaviour in the current government. Misallocation of resources to inefficient projects means that worthwhile projects that would improve economic efficiency and competitiveness don't get done and Thailand's competitiveness continues to slide, compared to countries like Indonesia and the Philippines that are starting to make serious efforts to curb corruption. In the corruption stakes Thailand is now starting to look like the Philippines under Marcos who approved a nuclear power plant based on the bribe offered by Westinghouse without proper feasibility studies. The plant turned out to be built on a geological fault and was never commissioned. The Westinghouse execs eventually got nailed and Marcos got his. Perhaps there will one day be a day of reckoning in Thailand but not holding my breath.

Sorry, a bit of topic and funnily enough there is very little obvious corruption at Immigration. The key point is that you should submit a nice and shiny looking application to Immigration, even if what is inside it is all BS, and if the lies are convincing enough it will be approved. Applications that are all correct but have been rained on or had coffee split on them won't be considered and applicants that show "angry farang" attitudes will be made to go off and cool their heels somewhere before trying again.