Thailand's English Skills Lowest In S E A

[wilcopops]

in that case there not and I have yet to hear of Thai teachers losing their jobs because of student assessment- as for fun fun fun...how does that fit in with the ubiquitous learning by rote that is the mainstay of Thai education?

[Issangeorge]

Thai teachers after a few years aquire what we would call tenure and it is almost impossible to fire them.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Issangeorge]

Sorry folks when posting to TV the posting seems to get hung up and posts several times. I am using the Android App, I think it has a problem.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[wilcopops]

The fault I think is with TV, I'm on a Mac and having similar problems for the last month....

as far as I'm aware it is pretty much impossible to sack a teacher in Thailand and the classes especially of the older teachers are just dreary recitation, talking heads and learning by rote. I know too that teachers attend classes carrying sticks and will physically handle students who do not obey. By this I mean slapping, ear pulling etc........hardly conducive to study and therefore learning.

Edited July 27, 2013 by wilcopops

[Commander Tamson]

When I had a job interview with a Thai guy from a university I said to him "Good morning, how are you?"

His responce "Slowly, slowly please....."

Had a similar reaction with the daughter of a friend. She's 22 and studied since she was 9 and for the last 4 years at university level. Her written English is fair but listening, understanding, and speaking are diabolical. She was going for a job interview as a hotel receptionist and wanted my help to improve her conversation.

After only 10 hours over the course of a week she had improved exponentially. In her case the core teaching in writing and grammar seemed OK, but the actual use of the language and actually hearing it seemed to be missing.

The first few hours it was "slowly, slowly prease", then she got more confidence. I said to her what colour is your t-shirt, and after many attempts at getting her to understand it, she replied "teacher not have carrot". She apparently heard "what carrot is your teacher". I mean I know I have a Kiwi accent, but it's not that bad!

The improvement she showed in pronunciation and listening skills over that short time were amazing, she got the job so it's all worked out for her. She had a lot of drive so I'm sure she'll keep improving on her own.

Don't know why I missed this thread when it was ongoing, but above post has just given me the best laugh of the day. Classic!

[wilcopops]

When I had a job interview with a Thai guy from a university I said to him "Good morning, how are you?"

His responce "Slowly, slowly please....."

Had a similar reaction with the daughter of a friend. She's 22 and studied since she was 9 and for the last 4 years at university level. Her written English is fair but listening, understanding, and speaking are diabolical. She was going for a job interview as a hotel receptionist and wanted my help to improve her conversation.

After only 10 hours over the course of a week she had improved exponentially. In her case the core teaching in writing and grammar seemed OK, but the actual use of the language and actually hearing it seemed to be missing.

The first few hours it was "slowly, slowly prease", then she got more confidence. I said to her what colour is your t-shirt, and after many attempts at getting her to understand it, she replied "teacher not have carrot". She apparently heard "what carrot is your teacher". I mean I know I have a Kiwi accent, but it's not that bad!

The improvement she showed in pronunciation and listening skills over that short time were amazing, she got the job so it's all worked out for her. She had a lot of drive so I'm sure she'll keep improving on her own.

Don't know why I missed this thread when it was ongoing, but above post has just given me the best laugh of the day. Classic!

Try saying "t-shirt" and "teacher" quickly.

Thai is a tone language and stress on syllables tends to be even. This means that stress and intonation in English is particularly alien to Thai speakers....also there is no "ch" sound in Thai - it is nearer "sh" - can YOU explain the difference in "t-shirt" and Teacher"?

Edited July 27, 2013 by wilcopops

[Noistar]

When I had a job interview with a Thai guy from a university I said to him "Good morning, how are you?"

His responce "Slowly, slowly please....."

Had a similar reaction with the daughter of a friend. She's 22 and studied since she was 9 and for the last 4 years at university level. Her written English is fair but listening, understanding, and speaking are diabolical. She was going for a job interview as a hotel receptionist and wanted my help to improve her conversation.

After only 10 hours over the course of a week she had improved exponentially. In her case the core teaching in writing and grammar seemed OK, but the actual use of the language and actually hearing it seemed to be missing.

The first few hours it was "slowly, slowly prease", then she got more confidence. I said to her what colour is your t-shirt, and after many attempts at getting her to understand it, she replied "teacher not have carrot". She apparently heard "what carrot is your teacher". I mean I know I have a Kiwi accent, but it's not that bad!

The improvement she showed in pronunciation and listening skills over that short time were amazing, she got the job so it's all worked out for her. She had a lot of drive so I'm sure she'll keep improving on her own.

Don't know why I missed this thread when it was ongoing, but above post has just given me the best laugh of the day. Classic!

Try saying "t-shirt" and "teacher" quickly.

Thai is a tone language and stress on syllables tends to be even. This means that stress and intonation in English is particularly alien to Thai speakers....also there is no "ch" sound in Thai - it is nearer "sh" - can YOU explain the difference in "t-shirt" and Teacher"?

You're right in that there are idiosyncrasies in the English language. I'm probably biased, but I'd accuse the Thai language of more.

Interchangeable:

'b' and 'p'

'd' and 't'

'g' and 'k'

'j' and 'ch'

And that's just off the top of my head.

Try following road signs from CM to Hod. Spelt 'H O D' but interchangeably sign-posted in English as 'Hot' and 'Hod'.

For Thais, 'Th' is a particular problem, as well as 'l' and 'r'. As you point out, 'ch' is completely alien. Trying to nurse them away from 'sh' can be time consuming.

The main problem I find is the final consonant. I came across a 'learn English' book written by a Thai with a Thai English degree. I wasn't disappointed to find the alphabet specifying 'v' is pronounced 'wee'. When will they learn!

The bit I found useful was the 'urr' vowel after the final consonant in the Thai phonetic of an English word. 'House' = 'housurr'. Perhaps an over emphasis, but preferable to ignoring it.

[Scott]

There are other threads where a discussion of the differences between English and Thai are more appropriate. This thread is about the skill level in English.

Please stay on the topic.

[boomerangutang]

I had some U students come up to me, asking that I help them with an assignment from their Thai (national) English teacher. I looked at the printed page, once, twice, and thrice, ....and couldn't make sense of it. Those poor kids were being taught conflagulated refried garbage. I've also looked at U level study books for English classes. Some have errors on nearly every page. A couple English-Thai dictionaries had such ridiculous words (beyond archaic) that it's borderline criminal to keep those as study material. Am I surprised that those faulty Thai-English dictionaries were written by Thais? No.

I once was seated next to a Frenchman in an airplane. He told me (with difficulty) that he had already been hired to teach at Chulagong U. I asked him what he was hired to teach. He said "English." I was aghast, because he had an awful handle on English and its pronunciation. Another time, I befriended a Finn who was teaching English at another Thai U. His accent and word structure was worse than the Frenchman, if that's possible. I meet very few farang, so these examples are indicative of thousands of inferior English teachers, both Thai and non-native English speakers, having been hired to teach English.

Thailand needs desperately to ease the hiring standards for native English speakers. The current rules are completely counter productive. In effect, Thailand is woefully cheating its students nationwide, by having such bad quality teachers.

Edited July 27, 2013 by boomerangutang

[Bokchoi]

Thailand's almost non-existent English language skills was noticed by multinationals in the early 2000s. Call centers went to India & the Phils as did back office processing jobs.

Thailand which has an appealing cost proposition and location/time zone was passed over, thus missing out on over 50,000- jobs. The call center jobs would have absorbed unskilled workers with good English language skills as it did in the Phils & India.

With the start of the ASEAN Free Trade zone 17 months from now (if on schedule) multinationals can base Indonesians & Malaysians- fluent in English - in Thailand without the need for work permits. 80% of Thailand's workforce (even service sector staff) with knowledge of only the local dialect will find it difficult to compete or travel & work like workers in many ASEAN countries of the free trade zone. As competition hots up for employment & opportunity - once ASEAN barriers like work permits/visas for people living in ASEAN are abolished - Thai's will find that not know English is a serious handicap.

Protection & xenophobia come at a heavy price.....as 2015 will prove.

[rct99q]

Thailand needs to ease the hiring standards for native English speakers??? Yeh, that will make it better. "Hey you, native English speaker,no you drinking jager shots with that prostitute? Want a job....what...no, no, no qualifications needed as long as you are a native English speaker."

At the moment all one needs is a Bachelor Degree in any subject. Not very difficult. If you could not manage to obtain one of the simplest of degrees like a BA in Psychology you should not be anywhere near a classroom to begin with.

[i claudius]

Our son learnt English in the UK when he went to school there so on coming here his english is just like mine,complete with accent ,he is now in his second year in university doing logistics and has already been offered two jobs with large companies because of his perfect English ,so the moral for Thais is learn good English it really helps in the workplace.

Edited July 27, 2013 by i claudius

[rct99q]

Thailand's almost non-existent English language skills was noticed by multinationals in the early 2000s. Call centers went to India & the Phils as did back office processing jobs.

Thailand which has an appealing cost proposition and location/time zone was passed over, thus missing out on over 50,000- jobs. The call center jobs would have absorbed unskilled workers with good English language skills as it did in the Phils & India.

With the start of the ASEAN Free Trade zone 17 months from now (if on schedule) multinationals can base Indonesians & Malaysians- fluent in English - in Thailand without the need for work permits. 80% of Thailand's workforce (even service sector staff) with knowledge of only the local dialect will find it difficult to compete or travel & work like workers in many ASEAN countries of the free trade zone. As competition hots up for employment & opportunity - once ASEAN barriers like work permits/visas for people living in ASEAN are abolished - Thai's will find that not know English is a serious handicap.

Protection & xenophobia come at a heavy price.....as 2015 will prove.

Not sure where you get your information from...but suggest you look again as some of your points are not quite true.

Firstly it is the AEC that comes into effect in 2015 - ASEAN has been here for a long time

As for the 'free" flow of labor and the need for work permits etc. Most of this has been dealt with already and the biggest impact has mostly been felt already. At least for now.

The major 8 categories for employment opportunities things like, dentistry, accountants, engineers, doctors, nurses, architects, surveyors and tour guides are covered in the MRA under the AEC. Even these workers will encounter problems as technically they are able to freely pursue work in the 10 ASEAN countries and the MRA is supposed to recognize the qualifications of each of it's members states it is yet to be seen if this is in fact going to happen. It is still unclear if a Doctor trained in Singapore will be allowed to work on patients without knowing the Thai language (and v.v a Thai doctor helping a Cambodian patient). Although there is a frame work in place to eliminate the barriers most believe it will not open up a free flow of people due to regional or domestic complications.

One of the major hurdles with employers like multinationals employing people will be the fact that anybody they hire will still need to meet local domestic regulations as laid out in the ASEAN charter. This is a major hurdle that has not fully been addressed between most of the ASEAN countries with the exception of Singapore who allow more foreign involvement in it's domestic services.

So not knowing English will not be a barrier for Thais, it will the Singaporean skilled worker trying to get a job in Thailand and not being able to because they do not speak Thai.

edit - MRA understanding to make it clearer

Edited July 27, 2013 by rct99q

[cardholder]

Thailand's almost non-existent English language skills was noticed by multinationals in the early 2000s. Call centers went to India & the Phils as did back office processing jobs.

Thailand which has an appealing cost proposition and location/time zone was passed over, thus missing out on over 50,000- jobs. The call center jobs would have absorbed unskilled workers with good English language skills as it did in the Phils & India.

With the start of the ASEAN Free Trade zone 17 months from now (if on schedule) multinationals can base Indonesians & Malaysians- fluent in English - in Thailand without the need for work permits. 80% of Thailand's workforce (even service sector staff) with knowledge of only the local dialect will find it difficult to compete or travel & work like workers in many ASEAN countries of the free trade zone. As competition hots up for employment & opportunity - once ASEAN barriers like work permits/visas for people living in ASEAN are abolished - Thai's will find that not know English is a serious handicap.

Protection & xenophobia come at a heavy price.....as 2015 will prove.

Not sure where you get your information from...but suggest you look again as some of your points are not quite true.

Firstly it is the AEC that comes into effect in 2015 - ASEAN has been here for a long time

As for the 'free" flow of labor and the need for work permits etc. Most of this has been dealt with already and the biggest impact has mostly been felt already. At least for now.

The major 8 categories for employment opportunities things like, dentistry, accountants, engineers, doctors, nurses, architects, surveyors and tour guides are covered in the MRA under the AEC. Even these workers will encounter problems as technically they are able to freely pursue work in the 10 ASEAN countries and the MRA is supposed to recognize the qualifications of each of it's members states it is yet to be seen if this is in fact going to happen. It is still unclear if a Doctor trained in Singapore will be allowed to work on patients without knowing the Thai language (and v.v a Thai doctor helping a Cambodian patient). Although there is a frame work in place to eliminate the barriers most believe it will not open up a free flow of people due to regional or domestic complications.

One of the major hurdles with employers like multinationals employing people will be the fact that anybody they hire will still need to meet local domestic regulations as laid out in the ASEAN charter. This is a major hurdle that has not fully been addressed between most of the ASEAN countries with the exception of Singapore who allow more foreign involvement in it's domestic services.

So not knowing English will not be a barrier for Thais, it will the Singaporean skilled worker trying to get a job in Thailand and not being able to because they do not speak Thai.

edit - MRA understanding to make it clearer

So why are the Thai authorities panicking about the generally poor standard of English ?

it surely cannot be 'face' because bottom of the league is bottom of the league whichever way you look at it....

[boomerangutang]

Thailand needs to ease the hiring standards for native English speakers??? Yeh, that will make it better. "Hey you, native English speaker,no you drinking jager shots with that prostitute? Want a job....what...no, no, no qualifications needed as long as you are a native English speaker."

At the moment all one needs is a Bachelor Degree in any subject. Not very difficult. If you could not manage to obtain one of the simplest of degrees like a BA in Psychology you should not be anywhere near a classroom to begin with.

Are you saying folks with college degrees are less likely to drink hard than people without degrees? Or maybe you're implying that people with degrees speak better English and make better teachers, than people without degrees (?)

I'm a host for wwoof (look it up). I get to know hundreds of young backpackers annually. Many of them are not yet through college. None of them are hard drinkers or bar flies. Most of them are among the finest folks a person can hope to meet in a lifetime. Those who are native English speakers, are young, lively, bright, and many would be glad to teach/tutor Thai students for modest compensation. If they don't have a degree, they can't do so legally. On the other hand, there are people who have degrees, who can't speak English well (and may not be decent teachers), ....yet are hired by Thai administrators.

Most Thai administrators at schools and colleges don't speak English well. They think that all farang speak English. They are particularly impressed by young (19 to 29 year old) farang who are attractive (in Thailand, appearances count for more than substance). Result: many farang are hired to be teachers (whether their degrees are fake or not) who are simply inept at teaching English. And then there are the thousands of Thai nationals teaching English, many of whom are inept. Add that up, and Thai students suffer, and the results (lack of English skills) are everywhere to be seen and heard.

Edited July 28, 2013 by boomerangutang

[ppmacready]

You mean it needed tests to come to this conclusion?

Several years ago I was in the situation of having to correspond at length with the head of the English department at one of the big Bangkok Universities . . . the lady in charge of teaching the teachers. I was astonished to discover that her written English was probably similar to that of a bright UK/USA/Aus etc 8-or 9-year-old . . . ie, confident but littered with grammatical and structural mistakes.

Will the Thai nation remain smug and offhand when it is suddenly out in the same competitive trading arena as the other ASEAN countries?

And will it keep its back turned with even fiercer pride, and shout even more loudly about how much finer the nation is than its . . . neighbours?

YOOOOOOOOOO BETCHA IT WILL!

R

YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!

[ppmacready]

Thailand's almost non-existent English language skills was noticed by multinationals in the early 2000s. Call centers went to India & the Phils as did back office processing jobs.

Thailand which has an appealing cost proposition and location/time zone was passed over, thus missing out on over 50,000- jobs. The call center jobs would have absorbed unskilled workers with good English language skills as it did in the Phils & India.

With the start of the ASEAN Free Trade zone 17 months from now (if on schedule) multinationals can base Indonesians & Malaysians- fluent in English - in Thailand without the need for work permits. 80% of Thailand's workforce (even service sector staff) with knowledge of only the local dialect will find it difficult to compete or travel & work like workers in many ASEAN countries of the free trade zone. As competition hots up for employment & opportunity - once ASEAN barriers like work permits/visas for people living in ASEAN are abolished - Thai's will find that not know English is a serious handicap.

Protection & xenophobia come at a heavy price.....as 2015 will prove.

Not sure where you get your information from...but suggest you look again as some of your points are not quite true.

Firstly it is the AEC that comes into effect in 2015 - ASEAN has been here for a long time

As for the 'free" flow of labor and the need for work permits etc. Most of this has been dealt with already and the biggest impact has mostly been felt already. At least for now.

The major 8 categories for employment opportunities things like, dentistry, accountants, engineers, doctors, nurses, architects, surveyors and tour guides are covered in the MRA under the AEC. Even these workers will encounter problems as technically they are able to freely pursue work in the 10 ASEAN countries and the MRA is supposed to recognize the qualifications of each of it's members states it is yet to be seen if this is in fact going to happen. It is still unclear if a Doctor trained in Singapore will be allowed to work on patients without knowing the Thai language (and v.v a Thai doctor helping a Cambodian patient). Although there is a frame work in place to eliminate the barriers most believe it will not open up a free flow of people due to regional or domestic complications.

One of the major hurdles with employers like multinationals employing people will be the fact that anybody they hire will still need to meet local domestic regulations as laid out in the ASEAN charter. This is a major hurdle that has not fully been addressed between most of the ASEAN countries with the exception of Singapore who allow more foreign involvement in it's domestic services.

So not knowing English will not be a barrier for Thais, it will the Singaporean skilled worker trying to get a job in Thailand and not being able to because they do not speak Thai.

edit - MRA understanding to make it clearer

Are you Thai?

[Noistar]

Thailand needs to ease the hiring standards for native English speakers??? Yeh, that will make it better. "Hey you, native English speaker,no you drinking jager shots with that prostitute? Want a job....what...no, no, no qualifications needed as long as you are a native English speaker."

At the moment all one needs is a Bachelor Degree in any subject. Not very difficult. If you could not manage to obtain one of the simplest of degrees like a BA in Psychology you should not be anywhere near a classroom to begin with.

Are you saying folks with college degrees are less likely to drink hard than people without degrees? Or maybe you're implying that people with degrees speak better English and make better teachers, than people without degrees (?)

I'm a host for wwoof (look it up). I get to know hundreds of young backpackers annually. Many of them are not yet through college. None of them are hard drinkers or bar flies. Most of them are among the finest folks a person can hope to meet in a lifetime. Those who are native English speakers, are young, lively, bright, and many would be glad to teach/tutor Thai students for modest compensation. If they don't have a degree, they can't do so legally. On the other hand, there are people who have degrees, who can't speak English well (and may not be decent teachers), ....yet are hired by Thai administrators.

Most Thai administrators at schools and colleges don't speak English well. They think that all farang speak English. They are particularly impressed by young (19 to 29 year old) farang who are attractive (in Thailand, appearances count for more than substance). Result: many farang are hired to be teachers (whether their degrees are fake or not) who are simply inept at teaching English. And then there are the thousands of Thai nationals teaching English, many of whom are inept. Add that up, and Thai students suffer, and the results (lack of English skills) are everywhere to be seen and heard.

What is the pass mark to obtain an English degree from a Thai university?

Is it a matter of turning up? Sometimes that is the impression I gain.

From books i have seen written by 'MA in English' post-graduates and as you point out, the abysmal standard of ability of Thai nationals teaching English, it doesn't seem to be too hard to gain a degree.

Wasn't there a topic on 1000 applicants for each teaching vacancy? Whatever the figure was, it would certainly benefit Thailand if the duff proportion were weeded out at the examination/award stage, so the best can be identified and recruited.

Even in the area I live in I can have a decent conversation with a limited number of Thais in English. Most of them don't even have degrees.

Pure laziness of some university students is not discouraged if they know the degree is waiting.

[wilcopops]

Noistar - (are you Welsh?)

Remember we aren’t talking about learning Thai we are talking about the converse, As for the examples I made - they're not idiosyncrasies - they are the normal ways we speak English and they are as you point out different from the way Thais use their vocal abilities and use of vowel sounds consonants intonation and stress to speak. In Thai, the consonants are not actually the same as in English. Both Cambodia and Vietnam have less of a problem here. For instance, in Cambodia they pronounce "r' more easily and other concepts of stress and intonation seem less of a problem, in Vietnam they use the same alphabet as in English.

THe problem I was alluding to is that people make judgments on things like GREETINGS which in English are so varied I know Americans visiting UK and even Australians have difficulty in understanding, so when you greet a Thai firstly be aware of what you are saying and secondly don't be so smug as to assume that your pronunciation is any good.

People confuse "accent" with pronunciation - (NB Glasgow or Geordie) - it is actually not the case that accents mean poor pronunciation, on the contrary everyone has an accent (except Edinburgh!) and what is important is the clarity of speech - I'm sorry to say that most of the expats I meet in Thailand have terrible speech - slurred, cut and full of slang, colloquialisms and idioms. There are the sort of thing that even native English speakers have problems with and are NOT a good way to assess whether or not the person you are speaking to has good language skills or not.....you after all just mentioning one listening incident based on the assumption that your speech is OK as a sample out of 65 million.

This is not to say that there isn’t a problem with the standard of English in Thailand but i don’t think that crude personal examples are in any way helpful or representative - amusing maybe, but that’s just about all.

I think the concern should be for the future and where the problems exist. I would suggest that at present it is senior management and the over 50s that have the biggest problem - unfortunately these are the people in power and through a combination of ignorance and fear of losing face there is a tendency to brush aside criticisms of English or even discussion on the need for English.

I’d suggest that those in power have not fully grasped the nettle or don’t see the need to do so. However the up and coming graduates do see this and many are taking extra curricular lessons (hence the plethora of language schools) - what the government needs to do is make it easier for foreigners to set up schools in Thailand and employ teachers - this will improve the teaching on offer and give a wider choice to customers....and in turn improve English throughout the population.

Edited July 28, 2013 by wilcopops

[Scott]

First of all, many Thai administrators do know the difference between a native English speaker and a non-native English speaker, even if both are farang. The parents are the ones who insist their child learn from a white teacher. We currently have two Asian teachers born and raised in Western countries. Their native language is English, but the parents still complain.

Second, the need for English will surpass the employment situation alone. A lot of documents are going to have to be written in English and a lot of trade is going to be done in English. It will become the language of commerce. All the people coming to Thailand will not be cheap unskilled labor or Tourists.

[wilcopops]

Thailand needs to ease the hiring standards for native English speakers??? Yeh, that will make it better. "Hey you, native English speaker,no you drinking jager shots with that prostitute? Want a job....what...no, no, no qualifications needed as long as you are a native English speaker."

At the moment all one needs is a Bachelor Degree in any subject. Not very difficult. If you could not manage to obtain one of the simplest of degrees like a BA in Psychology you should not be anywhere near a classroom to begin with.

Are you saying folks with college degrees are less likely to drink hard than people without degrees? Or maybe you're implying that people with degrees speak better English and make better teachers, than people without degrees (?)

I'm a host for wwoof (look it up). I get to know hundreds of young backpackers annually. Many of them are not yet through college. None of them are hard drinkers or bar flies. Most of them are among the finest folks a person can hope to meet in a lifetime. Those who are native English speakers, are young, lively, bright, and many would be glad to teach/tutor Thai students for modest compensation. If they don't have a degree, they can't do so legally. On the other hand, there are people who have degrees, who can't speak English well (and may not be decent teachers), ....yet are hired by Thai administrators.

Most Thai administrators at schools and colleges don't speak English well. They think that all farang speak English. They are particularly impressed by young (19 to 29 year old) farang who are attractive (in Thailand, appearances count for more than substance). Result: many farang are hired to be teachers (whether their degrees are fake or not) who are simply inept at teaching English. And then there are the thousands of Thai nationals teaching English, many of whom are inept. Add that up, and Thai students suffer, and the results (lack of English skills) are everywhere to be seen and heard.

What is the pass mark to obtain an English degree from a Thai university?

Is it a matter of turning up? Sometimes that is the impression I gain.

From books i have seen written by 'MA in English' post-graduates and as you point out, the abysmal standard of ability of Thai nationals teaching English, it doesn't seem to be too hard to gain a degree.

Wasn't there a topic on 1000 applicants for each teaching vacancy? Whatever the figure was, it would certainly benefit Thailand if the duff proportion were weeded out at the examination/award stage, so the best can be identified and recruited.

Even in the area I live in I can have a decent conversation with a limited number of Thais in English. Most of them don't even have degrees.

Pure laziness of some university students is not discouraged if they know the degree is waiting.

"What is the pass mark to obtain an English degree from a Thai university?" - you have odd ideas on how a student's ability is assessed. Can you not see how this is a purely subjective concept?

Edited July 28, 2013 by wilcopops

[Noistar]

Noistar - (are you Welsh?)

Remember we aren’t talking about learning Thai we are talking about the converse, As for the examples I made - they're not idiosyncrasies - they are the normal ways we speak English and they are as you point out different from the way Thais use their vocal abilities and use of vowel sounds consonants intonation and stress to speak. In Thai, the consonants are not actually the same as in English. Both Cambodia and Vietnam have less of a problem here. For instance, in Cambodia they pronounce "r' more easily and other concepts of stress and intonation seem less of a problem, in Vietnam they use the same alphabet as in English.

THe problem I was alluding to is that people make judgments on things like GREETINGS which in English are so varied I know Americans visiting UK and even Australians have difficulty in understanding, so when you greet a Thai firstly be aware of what you are saying and secondly don't be so smug as to assume that your pronunciation is any good.

People confuse "accent" with pronunciation - (NB Glasgow or Geordie) - it is actually not the case that accents mean poor pronunciation, on the contrary everyone has an accent (except Edinburgh!) and what is important is the clarity of speech - I'm sorry to say that most of the expats I meet in Thailand have terrible speech - slurred, cut and full of slang, colloquialisms and idioms. There are the sort of thing that even native English speakers have problems with and are NOT a good way to assess whether or not the person you are speaking to has good language skills or not.....you after all just mentioning one listening incident based on the assumption that your speech is OK as a sample out of 65 million.

This is not to say that there isn’t a problem with the standard of English in Thailand but i don’t think that crude personal examples are in any way helpful or representative - amusing maybe, but that’s just about all.

I think the concern should be for the future and where the problems exist. I would suggest that at present it is senior management and the over 50s that have the biggest problem - unfortunately these are the people in power and through a combination of ignorance and fear of losing face there is a tendency to brush aside criticisms of English or even discussion on the need for English.

I’d suggest that those in power have not fully grasped the nettle or don’t see the need to do so. However the up and coming graduates do see this and many are taking extra curricular lessons (hence the plethora of language schools) - what the government needs to do is make it easier for foreigners to set up schools in Thailand and employ teachers - this will improve the teaching on offer and give a wider choice to customers....and in turn improve English throughout the population.land, so I suppose it's quite close

Nope, not Welsh! Pompey born but brought up in Bath, England so quite close I suppose.

[wilcopops]

There are other threads where a discussion of the differences between English and Thai are more appropriate. This thread is about the skill level in English.

Please stay on the topic.

2 pionts -

Firstly - how or why it may be more difficult for Thao people to learn English

Second is a critique of whether the anecdotal evidence supplied by many posters is in fact relevant

[Noistar]

Thailand needs to ease the hiring standards for native English speakers??? Yeh, that will make it better. "Hey you, native English speaker,no you drinking jager shots with that prostitute? Want a job....what...no, no, no qualifications needed as long as you are a native English speaker."

At the moment all one needs is a Bachelor Degree in any subject. Not very difficult. If you could not manage to obtain one of the simplest of degrees like a BA in Psychology you should not be anywhere near a classroom to begin with.

Are you saying folks with college degrees are less likely to drink hard than people without degrees? Or maybe you're implying that people with degrees speak better English and make better teachers, than people without degrees (?)

I'm a host for wwoof (look it up). I get to know hundreds of young backpackers annually. Many of them are not yet through college. None of them are hard drinkers or bar flies. Most of them are among the finest folks a person can hope to meet in a lifetime. Those who are native English speakers, are young, lively, bright, and many would be glad to teach/tutor Thai students for modest compensation. If they don't have a degree, they can't do so legally. On the other hand, there are people who have degrees, who can't speak English well (and may not be decent teachers), ....yet are hired by Thai administrators.

Most Thai administrators at schools and colleges don't speak English well. They think that all farang speak English. They are particularly impressed by young (19 to 29 year old) farang who are attractive (in Thailand, appearances count for more than substance). Result: many farang are hired to be teachers (whether their degrees are fake or not) who are simply inept at teaching English. And then there are the thousands of Thai nationals teaching English, many of whom are inept. Add that up, and Thai students suffer, and the results (lack of English skills) are everywhere to be seen and heard.

What is the pass mark to obtain an English degree from a Thai university?

Is it a matter of turning up? Sometimes that is the impression I gain.

From books i have seen written by 'MA in English' post-graduates and as you point out, the abysmal standard of ability of Thai nationals teaching English, it doesn't seem to be too hard to gain a degree.

Wasn't there a topic on 1000 applicants for each teaching vacancy? Whatever the figure was, it would certainly benefit Thailand if the duff proportion were weeded out at the examination/award stage, so the best can be identified and recruited.

Even in the area I live in I can have a decent conversation with a limited number of Thais in English. Most of them don't even have degrees.

Pure laziness of some university students is not discouraged if they know the degree is waiting.

"What is the pass mark to obtain an English degree from a Thai university?" - you have odd ideas on how a student's ability is assessed. Can you not see how this is a purely subjective concept?

Ok - what level of ability/competence/whatever term I'm not using, supports the award of an English degree in Thailand? I would offer the opinion that a degree awarded in England reflects a greater standard/ability/competence than that awarded in Thailand.

My question, in whatever wording you want, remains.

[wilcopops]

"What is the pass mark to obtain an English degree from a Thai university?" - you have odd ideas on how a student's ability is assessed. Can you not see how this is a purely subjective concept?

Ok - what level of ability/competence/whatever term I'm not using, supports the award of an English degree in Thailand? I would offer the opinion that a degree awarded in England reflects a greater standard/ability/competence than that awarded in Thailand.

My question, in whatever wording you want, remains.

Not "whatever wording" - speak English and make sense - this is what we are demanding from Thai people - Pass marks are arbitrary and no real indicator - if you are worried about teaching standards the best thing to do is refer to international assessment boards.....I've long since forgotten where the info. that started this thread is from. However it is generally accepted that the standard of English in Thailand leaves a lot to be desired....the question really is therefore - how can that be? and what should be done about it.

[wilcopops]

Corruption is of course prevailent in the Thai eduction system so people end up with qualifications they haven't earned, however I doubt if counting degrees in English was used to work out and compare the overall standard of English in S.E. Asia.

Another point that occurred to me that may have some bearing on the matter is that, the is little or no comparison between English and Thai grammar - this is particularly obvious when it comes to writing...in ANY language. As far as I'm aware there is no teaching of writing skills in Thai schools, so students have no idea on how to organise a piece of writing, from ordering topics to paragraphs, sentence structure or word order.

This is further compounded at University level by a total lack of courses on writing (again in ANY language) and critical thinking, the result is that many students simply lack the basic skills to communicate....whatever the tongue.

[wilcopops]

"Wasn't there a topic on 1000 applicants for each teaching vacancy? Whatever the figure was, it would certainly benefit Thailand if the duff proportion were weeded out at the examination/award stage, so the best can be identified and recruited."

you're looking at the situation backwards as the result of one (probably inaccurate) example.

​Firslty you presume that the majority of English teachers are duff.........I don't know of anny basis for this other than anecdotal or apocryphal stories.

i think that teahers only go for the jobs that they think offer a good deal - and in truth Thailand doesn't offer a vey good deal. Work permits are hugely beaucratic and unwelcoming - yet teachers are NEEDED in Thailand, but the thing that I think most inhibits the improvement of eduction is that almost all ownership and management is reserved for Thai nationals. I know of a huge TEFL company that has massive oil contracts all over the world who won't set up in Thailand because setting up a company is far to restrictive and employing a large number of foreigners is of course impossible.

the end result of this is that almost EVERY teacher you see teaching in factories or businesses outside their own school is working ILLEGALLY - how can Thailand expect to improve their English when its teachers haver to break the law to teach????

[Neeranam]

Not so long ago, Thailand had plans to put some serious effort on improving the english education all over the country, and to turn english into their official second language.

However, the plans were killed by conservative government fossils. They believed that taking English as its second official language might lead to "misunderstandings that Thailand had been colonized in the past." The minister indicated that countries in the region who have English as their second language were, in fact, all viewed as former colonies.

So yeah, Thailand avoids english because they are afraid to be viewed as a colony (the usual loss of face I guess?)

Read and laugh: http://www.eturbonews.com/19168/english-sign-colonized-country-thailands-minister-education

Idiots.

Interesting link.

The director at a large prestigious school I worked in once had the Thai/Chinese philosophy of keeping the students ignorant. Honestly, he actually said this to me once.

[wilcopops]

Not so long ago, Thailand had plans to put some serious effort on improving the english education all over the country, and to turn english into their official second language.

However, the plans were killed by conservative government fossils. They believed that taking English as its second official language might lead to "misunderstandings that Thailand had been colonized in the past." The minister indicated that countries in the region who have English as their second language were, in fact, all viewed as former colonies.

So yeah, Thailand avoids english because they are afraid to be viewed as a colony (the usual loss of face I guess?)

Read and laugh: http://www.eturbonews.com/19168/english-sign-colonized-country-thailands-minister-education

Idiots.

Interesting link.

The director at a large prestigious school I worked in once had the Thai/Chinese philosophy of keeping the students ignorant. Honestly, he actually said this to me once.

I remember that particular statement. It does underline rthough how it is the OLDER more conservative members of Thai society who are holding things back. Corruption rears its ugly head here - so many people in Thai got their jobs not through ability but through who they know or kew. This means that the higher echelons of government and business are populated by people who simply aren't up to the job. Hopefully as Thailand progresses through the next decade these people will either retire or "natural wastage" will improve the situation.

Living in Thailand is a bit like being in a nice car (a "papa" and his Mercedes Benz?) that needs work or driving better - but the driver won't let anyone drive it or touch it because it's "MY car!!"

Edited July 28, 2013 by wilcopops

[Noistar]

"Wasn't there a topic on 1000 applicants for each teaching vacancy? Whatever the figure was, it would certainly benefit Thailand if the duff proportion were weeded out at the examination/award stage, so the best can be identified and recruited."

you're looking at the situation backwards as the result of one (probably inaccurate) example.

​Firslty you presume that the majority of English teachers are duff.........I don't know of anny basis for this other than anecdotal or apocryphal stories.

i think that teahers only go for the jobs that they think offer a good deal - and in truth Thailand doesn't offer a vey good deal. Work permits are hugely beaucratic and unwelcoming - yet teachers are NEEDED in Thailand, but the thing that I think most inhibits the improvement of eduction is that almost all ownership and management is reserved for Thai nationals. I know of a huge TEFL company that has massive oil contracts all over the world who won't set up in Thailand because setting up a company is far to restrictive and employing a large number of foreigners is of course impossible.

the end result of this is that almost EVERY teacher you see teaching in factories or businesses outside their own school is working ILLEGALLY - how can Thailand expect to improve their English when its teachers haver to break the law to teach????

I appear to have been misunderstood, perhaps inadvertently.

If there are 1000 applicants for every teaching job and there is a significant perception that Thai nationals teaching English are far from competent, then there must logically be truth in the standard of Thai English degrees being awarded too freely.

Obviously I have not had the opportunity to read many Thai-English teaching books, but all those I have read which are written by Thais proudly stating they have an MA in English, are lamentable to say the least.

Proof reading by a native English speaker would help, but why should the holder of an MA need to have accuracy checked? Of course, Thais don't make mistakes so proof reading is not required. The people the books are intended for don't know any better - the next batch of below-standard teachers is being prepared. I, for one, can just wonder at how a professional can display his ignorance in print.