Thailand's English Skills Lowest In S E A

[thaicbr]

 

It always amuses me how when it comes to education "everyone's an expert"

Tell us prey, oh experts, what qualification do you need ........

 

A - to teach anything?

B - to teach English as a foreign language?

Your the expert.

You tell us.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[thaicbr]

*Messed up and deleted quotes edited out*

See Scotts post.. presuming you can read!

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Edited June 15, 2013 by Scott
Messed up quotes deleted

[Noistar]

When people talk about qualified teachers, you need to be specific about what qualification it is you are referring to. In many countries a TEFL is a qualification for teaching English. In Thailand it is not.

Thailand wants people with a University degree in education. If you have a degree but not in education, then you have a period of years to upgrade it to education. Whether or not this is necessary is a mute point, because it is what is usually needed to get a work permit.

I have been involved in the education field and I am not opposed to the idea of people having a degree. That said, I have seen many non-degreed people with a TEFL do a superlative job in teaching English, but they would be out of their depth in a different subject.

In Thailand the problem is that they a curriculum and a plan that is long term and assures the progression of the students from start to finish. As it is now, they may start with one strategy and then jump to another and then to another. In the end the students have accomplished little.

When you say 'people with a University degree' are you referring to teachers per se or just non-Thais?

Thais need teachers and an education policy which wants students to succeed.

IMHO there are teachers - products of the inadequate Thai education system, perpetuating the inadequacies.

There is an education policy, which, whatever its structure is at the mercy of 'Thai culture'. This c..p about students wasting a whole day paying respect to teachers. That won't get you a job. It will ensure that any personal strengths are not allowed to develop as you are always caught in the pathetic system.

My daughter's current (government) school, still observes that c..p, but has a refreshing attitude to teaching. They welcome input from parents. (Can't imagine Thai parents give much - after all, Thai culture means you worship teachers, especially cru yii). Teachers seem to want students to be involved. I am keeping an eye on my daughter's progress. Actions speak louder than words. If her education is improving (because of) being in the right environment, then she's landed on her feet after a completely wasted year at the 'nazi-glorification' school.

[Scott]

I was referring primarily to foreign teachers, but Thailand has the same expectation of Thai teachers regarding an education degree.

There are a lot of problems that need fixing, but this thread is really more about the low standard of English that exists in the work environment, so an in-depth discussion of the education system is probably way beyond this thread and this topic. It is more a reflection of the past education standards. Will the current students fare better, I think so. Will they fare better in comparison to their neighbors? I am less confident of that.

[jpinx]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

[paulmw]

I think expats in Thailand relish this kind of survey result, but of course they aren't interested in looking into it further, much better to sit back and say "I told you so" as if they have some in depth knowledge of the cutlural ins-andouts of language leaning and a detailed knowledge of language teaching - suddenly everyone's an expert?

Singapore - ex- British colony

Malaysia - ex-British colony

Philippines - ex - US colony

Indonesia and Thailand not a lot of difference apart from the fat Idonesia had Dutch and English influences

The 'facts' are that Indonesia was a Dutch colony. Moreover English is mandatory in Holland.

The facts also are that Thailand was never 'colonised' (sic) a fact that their xenophobic masters place great emphasis on. BUT they were conquered by the Burmese AND the Japanese. (and were it not for the allies Japanese would be the official language)

And for the record English, is widely spoken in Burma, particularly by anyone who is semi educated.

And finally, Aung San Suu Kyi 'whilst not your 'normal Burmese' has a command of English that would put many Oxford grads to shame.

The problem in Thailand is that parents don't see the need for their children to learn/speak English consequently not many do/or are proficient in the language.

You forgot maths, science, geography and Thai.

Oh sorry forgot they all get 50%

[lostmebike]

I have to say I somewhat agree with the MOE's criteria of foreign teachers possessing a degree for various reasons.

However, what flies in the face of 'standards and rules' is the fact that many Thai teachers have a major in a different subject other than English, say IT or Maths. They then get restless/bored teaching that subject (or in reality their friend teaches English and they want to be with them). Many, many, then somehow swap departments and become English Teachers when they can barely string a sentence together and even have the grammatical skills of a NES primary kid!

So with the above in mind, how the <deleted> can a NES Teacher be told that with their teaching experience and TEFL alone but no degree, that they now have to stop teaching? Those of you that know, now they can't get a Teacher's license, WP or a visa! This is happening all the time and it really puzzles me. Many Teachers, good, experienced Teachers are having a multitude of problems because they have no degree. What makes this NES less of a Teacher than the Thai teacher teaching English?

A Thai teacher with a degree in Social Studies or History is better than a NES with years teaching experience??? NO way! I see it all the time and it still frustrates me. God only knows why? Should know better by now!

[jpinx]

I have to say I somewhat agree with the MOE's criteria of foreign teachers possessing a degree for various reasons.

However, what flies in the face of 'standards and rules' is the fact that many Thai teachers have a major in a different subject other than English, say IT or Maths. They then get restless/bored teaching that subject (or in reality their friend teaches English and they want to be with them). Many, many, then somehow swap departments and become English Teachers when they can barely string a sentence together and even have the grammatical skills of a NES primary kid!

So with the above in mind, how the <deleted> can a NES Teacher be told that with their teaching experience and TEFL alone but no degree, that they now have to stop teaching? Those of you that know, now they can't get a Teacher's license, WP or a visa! This is happening all the time and it really puzzles me. Many Teachers, good, experienced Teachers are having a multitude of problems because they have no degree. What makes this NES less of a Teacher than the Thai teacher teaching English?

A Thai teacher with a degree in Social Studies or History is better than a NES with years teaching experience??? NO way! I see it all the time and it still frustrates me. God only knows why? Should know better by now!

Sounds like the usual double standards -- rules applied strictly to farangs but almost negligently to Thais

[Tchooptip]

When I had a job interview with a Thai guy from a university I said to him "Good morning, how are you?"

His responce "Slowly, slowly please....."

too much if it's true

[Tchooptip]

My wife learned learn and learn English she has a very impressive vocabulary...is capable to make herself understood every time on any subject... but still speaks Thaiglish, her daughter spend a lot of time on internet, reads fairly well but she dares not utter a single word ??????? Why? I really do not know

Edited June 15, 2013 by Tchooptip

[yoshiwara]

How many farang teachers have had proper teacher training though?

Good point.

How does a BA in math qualify you to teach English any more than being a native English speaker would?

But here is a question for you.

How many Thai teachers do you think are qualified to teach english? I can honestly say that I have no degree and am more qualified to teach English than any of the Thai English teachers I have met.

My kids go to a thai public school that claims they want to be the best in Chiang Mai and have hired a couple of Native English speakers to teach math but both of the non thai English teachers have English as a second language. However the one I spoke to does speak English quite well.

The main problems are ..................

The Thai English teachers can not speak English.

None of the teachers give any vocabulary for the kids to learn.

The two teachers that can actually speak English are spread out among something like 48 classes so the kids get them one hour a week at the most.

Honestly I am the one teaching my kids how to read, write, and speak English and they come home almost everyday laughing at how the thai teachers are trying to teach them English.

My solution would be to have a native English speaker that has an understandable accent with at least a high school education teach a conversational english class and have enough of them where the kids get 1 hour a day of conversational English.

The Thai teachers may be woeful but that doesn't make you qualified, just better than them. In Thailand that may be enough for now but lack of qualifications will eventually catch up with you.

[Tomtomtom69]

When I had a job interview with a Thai guy from a university I said to him "Good morning, how are you?"

His responce "Slowly, slowly please....."

too much if it's true

I would have just told him: "Ohh kkay bye bye now" and shown him the door.

[MaxLee]

The heading should actually say

Thailand's political mafia is the most stubbornly corrupt of South East torturing their nations with rote learning brainwashing ripoff-ing propaganda SCAMS for their self interest for the sake of THEIR OWN SOCIAL STATUS AND PRESERVING FACE; thinking different will result in being shot dead...

Don't you DARE to call any child stupid or unable because of that saving face crap,... it's the system that the feudal political ruling mafia that tries to keep the majority of the nation in the dark...

Nobody is stupid or unable... this country just needs to get radically colonized,... even if it temporarily hurts Thai Face pride...

[scorecard]

When I had a job interview with a Thai guy from a university I said to him "Good morning, how are you?"

His responce "Slowly, slowly please....."

too much if it's true

I would have just told him: "Ohh kkay bye bye now" and shown him the door.

Another example:

- My HR folks put a job vacancy on a popular web based employment site.

- Job description etc.,stated very clearly that the jobholder must have advanced spoken and written English (and stated that the jobholder will have regular contact (complex discussions), at least 10 times per day, with offshore clients / colleagues from branch offices etc., all in English) (Company is a high profile international management consulting company.)

- HR folks called three applicants in for interviews, after contacting the database contact person and being assured they had checked and all three applicants spoke / wrote advanced English (note: the site concerned does not allow personal tel. numbers or personal e-mail addresses to be included in the database and employers must contact the database owner to arrange interviews.

- First two totally unsuitable for the position, could not possibly have completed the work involved because of lack of knowledge and no experience, and no English whatever. Database agency telling blatant lies about their capabilities and experience.

- Last candidate comes into the interview room with his young friend following him. The friend explains that the candidate can't speak any English but he will help (translate) during the interview.

- I politely remind all concerned that the jobholder must speak advanced English from the starting date to communicate with customers and company colleagues in many countries abroad.

.

- The 'translator' then says, "but he can learn, the other staff can help him with phone calls and you can send him to English school".

- My HR senior wisely cancelled the interview on the spot. (And I took advantage of the situation to tell my HR (again) folks to stop using this type of agency.)

Edited June 15, 2013 by scorecard

[lostmebike]

When I had a job interview with a Thai guy from a university I said to him "Good morning, how are you?"

His responce "Slowly, slowly please....."

too much if it's true

I would have just told him: "Ohh kkay bye bye now" and shown him the door.

Another example:

- My HR folks put a job vacancy on a popular web based employment site.

- Job description etc.,stated very clearly that the jobholder must have advanced spoken and written English (and stated that the jobholder will have regular contact (complex discussions), at least 10 times per day, with offshore clients / colleagues from branch offices etc., all in English) (Company is a high profile international management consulting company.)

- HR folks called three applicants in for interviews, after contacting the database contact person and being assured they had checked and all three applicants spoke / wrote advanced English (note: the site concerned does not allow personal tel. numbers or personal e-mail addresses to be included in the database and employers must contact the database owner to arrange interviews.

- First two totally unsuitable for the position, could not possibly have completed the work involved because of lack of knowledge and no experience, and no English whatever. Database agency telling blatant lies about their capabilities and experience.

- Last candidate comes into the interview room with his young friend following him. The friend explains that the candidate can't speak any English but he will help (translate) during the interview.

- I politely remind all concerned that the jobholder must speak advanced English from the starting date to communicate with customers and company colleagues in many countries abroad.

.

- The 'translator' then says, "but he can learn, the other staff can help him with phone calls and you can send him to English school".

- My HR senior wisely cancelled the interview on the spot. (And I took advantage of the situation to tell my HR (again) folks to stop using this type of agency.)

That's a funny story and one you just couldn't make up.

[Pib]

- My HR senior wisely cancelled the interview on the spot. (And I took advantage of the situation to tell my HR (again) folks to stop using this type of agency.)

Good story...a very frustrating set of interviews. I sure hope your HR folks were told "in Thai" not to use that agency again otherwise they may not understand.

[yoshiwara]

Nobody is stupid or unable... this country just needs to get radically colonized,... e

...and just to kick things off here we have a suggestion that is really stupid.

[Noistar]

Is it as simple as Thai culture perpetuating the problem?

Poor teaching practice, when the teachers are terrified of being found wanting by being asked questions they may not know the answer to?

Students learn more by answers to the question 'why', than by robotically listening and reading.

Students are terrified of losing face by speaking in front of their fellow students.

Face to face, not under the gaze of their friends, the students can communicate more effectively than you'd imagine. Farang have an ability to drag the English out, mainly because we're nosey and want to know what the hell they're trying to say!

Conversely, Thais have the attitude 'up-to-you' - ie I don't care, so they just give up.

[yoshiwara]

Is it as simple as Thai culture perpetuating the problem?

Poor teaching practice, when the teachers are terrified of being found wanting by being asked questions they may not know the answer to?

Students learn more by answers to the question 'why', than by robotically listening and reading.

Students are terrified of losing face by speaking in front of their fellow students.

Face to face, not under the gaze of their friends, the students can communicate more effectively than you'd imagine. Farang have an ability to drag the English out, mainly because we're nosey and want to know what the hell they're trying to say!

Conversely, Thais have the attitude 'up-to-you' - ie I don't care, so they just give up.

Language, like maths!, is one of those subjects where it difficult to hide, so the only recourse is to go silent when under pressure.

[Scott]

Post removed. Please follow the rules.

[Baerboxer]

The problem is nothing to do with white teachers. The majority of Thais are taught by Thai teachers who are afraid to speak english (even if they could), and use Thai 95% of the time. I'm still astounded that the average government school graduate can say barely more than hello, even after 12 years of learning english. There are plenty of excellent speakers of english here, educated in private / international schools / overseas, but they are in the vast minority of all citizens.

This gets to the heart of the problem with Thai teachers passing on the bad English they themselves were taught. I taught for quite a few years including university level and soon stopped being surprised at the stories the students told me of how they had learned, or not learned , in High School.

Most had never really put a sentence or two of spoken English together in class as the teacher couldn't handle it and the students knew it.

I know quite a few people who have a BA in English but from their spoken English you would never believe it.

Another point to keep in mind is that A Thai university first degree (BA, BSc) is roughly of the standard of an International Baccalaureate ie UK equivalent of 'A' Levels. Add this to the general abysmal English teaching mix and draw your own conclusions!

R

Is that your assumption or do you have some criteria on which you base your assertion? How exactly do you compare the syllabus and examination / assessment of the Thai and UK degree.

This is a serious question. I would like to understand how you have compared the two education systems and reached this conclusion.

I've found the variabilty in quality of teachers and educational establishments in Thailand to be similar to the variability in the UK and other countries that I've lived in, which makes generalizations of comparrions difficult.

[Baerboxer]

How many farang teachers have had proper teacher training though?

What for?

Have you ever taught here?

There are 2 distinct foreign teacher sets.

One subject teaching and the other English conversation teaching. Very different.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Sounds the defensive attitude of someone who hasn't had adequate teacher training.

I have a tefl and 8 years teaching English conversation in Thailand. 6 years at the same school. What makes you qualified to judge?

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Your're quite right - your telf and 8 years teaching conversational English does not make you qualifed to to English as a subject. Judging if you provide value for money can only be judged by the people who pay you to teach them conversational English. Do they sit any independent examination? If so the pass / fail rates would be a good indication.

[Baerboxer]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

Crap.Have you checked out Thai University degrees? There are some excellent universities here offering very good courses and qualifications. Assumption and Bangkok Universities both have large amounts of international students (yes even from farangland). Do you think all these parents ship their kids here, where the fees aren't cheap without doing some checking? I know from experience how strict the Thai MOE is. Chulalongkorn and Kasetsart both offer excellent post graduate courses and have many visiting professors (yes, I know several),

The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance.

Too many urban myths about Thai education. How many of those who knock have bothered to learn Thai and use it fluently? Learning a language is not the only measure of an education system. There is an arrogance that Western degrees are more meaningful - I know many academics who don't share that view.

Thailand has low English skills because consecutive governments and power holders have not thought is necessary or desired it, for whatever reasons - mainly political and cultural. To claim this means all Thai qualifcations are lower than those awarded by other countries is nonsense and an insult.

I know somw very poor Australian, US and UK universities where its almost impossible to fail whatever your standard. But. this doesn't mean all education in those countries is the same. I was part of a program that paired business leaders with headteachers in the UK sometime ago. Believe me I learnt a lot about the quality of educatiion in the UK.

I know many very dedicated Thai teachers who work hard and are very professional, for meagre salaries. I also see many farangs who see teaching as a way to stay here or earn some pocket money - not as a profession. Thailand's elimination of the latter is a good step forward.

[jpinx]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

Crap.Have you checked out Thai University degrees? There are some excellent universities here offering very good courses and qualifications. Assumption and Bangkok Universities both have large amounts of international students (yes even from farangland). Do you think all these parents ship their kids here, where the fees aren't cheap without doing some checking? I know from experience how strict the Thai MOE is. Chulalongkorn and Kasetsart both offer excellent post graduate courses and have many visiting professors (yes, I know several),

The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance.

Too many urban myths about Thai education. How many of those who knock have bothered to learn Thai and use it fluently? Learning a language is not the only measure of an education system. There is an arrogance that Western degrees are more meaningful - I know many academics who don't share that view.

Thailand has low English skills because consecutive governments and power holders have not thought is necessary or desired it, for whatever reasons - mainly political and cultural. To claim this means all Thai qualifcations are lower than those awarded by other countries is nonsense and an insult.

I know somw very poor Australian, US and UK universities where its almost impossible to fail whatever your standard. But. this doesn't mean all education in those countries is the same. I was part of a program that paired business leaders with headteachers in the UK sometime ago. Believe me I learnt a lot about the quality of educatiion in the UK.

I know many very dedicated Thai teachers who work hard and are very professional, for meagre salaries. I also see many farangs who see teaching as a way to stay here or earn some pocket money - not as a profession. Thailand's elimination of the latter is a good step forward.

I'll not make any issue of this because my comments are based on close personal experience of only a few cases of thai-qualified people seeking work in USA and EU. I daresay the best students of the best Thai universities can hold their heads high amongst their Oxbridge and Harvard compatriots, but the "average" of Thai education standards certainly appears to be somewhat wanting.

[Scott]

A post with messed up quotes has been deleted.

[bikerlou47]

Before I pulled my daughter out of school, I followed what was being taught in her English class here are two examples:

1.What is a preposition and how is it used?

2. Identify affirmative and negative forms.

She is in the 7th grade and has 52 kids in her class, she speaks English along with one other student. 50 kids can not speak English.

This would be like learning the workings of a internal combustion engine, when the goal is to learn how to drive.

I am just happy I have the time and credentials to teach her at home.

[yourauntbob]

This is simply not news

[Noistar]

The standards of education in Thailand are such that a Thai University degree is not accepted in farangland when it comes to getting a job. How much of that is because the person has poor English or has a poor grasp of the subject is a moot point. As someone else pointed out, it is not unusual to find English language teachers at university level who can not have a simple conversation in English. The combination of poor english and poor standards make Thai students most un-attractive to employers. The only Thai people who succeed abroad are the ones who really WANT to learn English and are not lazy about it - as has been mentioned earlier here.

Crap.Have you checked out Thai University degrees? There are some excellent universities here offering very good courses and qualifications. Assumption and Bangkok Universities both have large amounts of international students (yes even from farangland). Do you think all these parents ship their kids here, where the fees aren't cheap without doing some checking? I know from experience how strict the Thai MOE is. Chulalongkorn and Kasetsart both offer excellent post graduate courses and have many visiting professors (yes, I know several),

The reality is most Thais I know have no ambition to work outside of Thailand. Those that want to join international companies know they must learn English to stand a chance.

Too many urban myths about Thai education. How many of those who knock have bothered to learn Thai and use it fluently? Learning a language is not the only measure of an education system. There is an arrogance that Western degrees are more meaningful - I know many academics who don't share that view.

Thailand has low English skills because consecutive governments and power holders have not thought is necessary or desired it, for whatever reasons - mainly political and cultural. To claim this means all Thai qualifcations are lower than those awarded by other countries is nonsense and an insult.

I know somw very poor Australian, US and UK universities where its almost impossible to fail whatever your standard. But. this doesn't mean all education in those countries is the same. I was part of a program that paired business leaders with headteachers in the UK sometime ago. Believe me I learnt a lot about the quality of educatiion in the UK.

I know many very dedicated Thai teachers who work hard and are very professional, for meagre salaries. I also see many farangs who see teaching as a way to stay here or earn some pocket money - not as a profession. Thailand's elimination of the latter is a good step forward.

Do you acknowledge that the Thai education system is a standard flow from nursery to University?

My daughter, at 17, is post GCSE. However, her current academic abilities are below that standard.

Her 'drift' into University is assured. In the first world, university education means a display of academic achievement. To go to university is special, something which is earned.

Also, why should I want to learn Thai? It's a 'one nation' language which will do me no good in my remaining years. I pick up odd useful bits which I need, but I seem to survive. If the worse comes to the worse I just phone my wife and pass the phone to the Thai. However, English is useful for Thais. You acknowledge and may support the Thai philosophy that there is Thailand and 'not Thailand'. In the 21st century that situation might be short-sighted.

Coming back to the subject in hand -

Do you want the names of authors and their 'learn English' publications, who despite proudly displaying 'MA English', haven't a clue. A degree with benefit? An achievement?

A nation who are convinced that a 'v' is pronounced 'w'. Taught that by Farang? Most unlikely. As its universal it must be part of the Thai English language curriculum.

Some gems:

A house, a apartment, a land(?)

I know that 'open' is used where the English equivalent is 'turn on', but there is no excuse for the author giving a demonstration of 'turn on' being an illustration of somebody opening a window!

How about the dentist with no English ability. Surely a medical professional needs to be fully aware of international medical developments. If so, and they rely on Thai translations, 'God help us'!

Defend Thai universities in general by all means, but as far as English ability is concerned, Thailand doesn't give a damn.

[Noistar]

Can't edit the post, so please accept that 'its' should be 'it's'

[gerrythepoet]

Exposure to the language we all accept however in the brand new Major Cine complex at Central Plaza in Ubon all films are Thai nothing subtitled in English. All films are either Thai or western movies dubbed. If that is the attitude how in God's name are things going to change who cares about A.E.C is just so apparent that one has to be resigned to the fact Thais are truly resistant to change