Thailand's English Skills Lowest In S E A

[noitom]

This comes as a big surprise.

[bigbamboo]

I think expats in Thailand relish this kind of survey result, but of course they aren't interested in looking into it further, much better to sit back and say "I told you so" as if they have some in depth knowledge of the cutlural ins-andouts of language leaning and a detailed knowledge of language teaching - suddenly everyone's an expert?

Singapore - ex- British colony

Malaysia - ex-British colony

Philippines - ex - US colony

Indonesia and Thailand not a lot of difference apart from the fat Idonesia had Dutch and English influences

The 'facts' are that Indonesia was a Dutch colony. Moreover English is mandatory in Holland.

The facts also are that Thailand was never 'colonised' (sic) a fact that their xenophobic masters place great emphasis on. BUT they were conquered by the Burmese AND the Japanese. (and were it not for the allies Japanese would be the official language)

And for the record English, is widely spoken in Burma, particularly by anyone who is semi educated.

And finally, Aung San Suu Kyi 'whilst not your 'normal Burmese' has a command of English that would put many Oxford grads to shame.

The problem in Thailand is that parents don't see the need for their children to learn/speak English consequently not many do/or are proficient in the language.

maybe Aung San Suu Kyi's command of English has something to do with the fact that she herself is an Oxford University graduate!

Yes she speaks English very well which sort of begs the question how come certain Thai politicians who graduated at English speaking universities can't string more than a few words together?

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

When you buy a degree you don't expect to do the work yourself.

[Somtamnication]

I teach P1 through M6 at a govt. school.

Last term, a P 6 student (12 years old) grabbed my arm and took me to a map on the wall. He looked up, full of pride with what he was about to ask me. "Teacha, you "prateep where?" he asks, while looking up at the map.

I, in my own amazement, also looked up at the map and was full of pride recognizing what that map actually was: A regional Thai only map with edges of their corresponding neighbours.

And yes, after years of teaching the same students (Thai apologists will blame me), I still get a "fine thank you and you?" when I was what their name is.

English simply does not stick in their brains, even after repetitive classes, reviews, reviews and more reviews.

[gerryBScot]

The issues here are very difficult. One thing that appears to be lacking in the education system, and I write as a teacher, is a pedagogical approach to teaching. This covers all teaching, not just Engrish but all subjects. What I mean is there is no consideration in schools about how children learn and more appropriately how teachers teach. The management of my school have one overriding concern: quantity. They believe the more hours they get out of me the better. So I get caught up in a lot of meaningless, questionable activities. The management smile because they get me to school earlier and keep me there until later. They believe quantity is the same as quality.

Now I teach in a school that calls itself bilingual and has been running for over 12 years. To my mind it would not be unreasonable to assume in these circumstances they might have developed some expertise in how to teach Thai children Engrish and other languages; that new teachers might be advised that the school has a specific method or approach. For instance there are very obvious differences between English and Thai: script, capitalisation, punctuation, spacing, placement of some vowel sound before consonants or indeed above or below them etc. None of this is rocket science, it's only a little bit more advanced than using your eyesight and engaging your brain. Is any of this reflected in the teaching in the school - no way!

What about the use of dictionaries? Most students are encouraged by their teachers to understand every word they read and to look up new words in dictionaries. If you are able to read a little in Thai, then I suggest you try this. Try to read a page of Thai script and look up every unfamiliar word in a Thai-English dictionary. If you are like me you'll spend 30 minutes on one paragraph and get so frustrated by the lack of progress that you'll give up. I see this constantly in the classroom. We give kids lovely books with fantastic images relevant to what they are going to read/speak. The kids straightaway get their dictionaries out - so I have stopped them using dictionaries. And guess what? With a little bit of coaxing the kids get the story, most of the language by considering the context illustrated by graphics.

I am sure a much more systematic approach to learning (and teaching) would yield an enormous improvement in foreign language competence in Thai schools.

But as I say my management don't want to talk about these approaches; they want me in at 0730h to play games with the kids, most of whom don't get in until almost 0800h. They really get the education system here that they deserve. It can't be any different given the outlook.

Edited June 12, 2013 by gerryBScot

[Mosha]

A Thai English teacher told a mate's step daughter. "Don't listen to Farang, they don't know English." This is after 3 Brits and an Aussie helped her answer a multi-choice question. All 4 answers were correct (Sweater, Pullover. Jumper, Jersey)

[Noistar]

A Thai English teacher told a mate's step daughter. "Don't listen to Farang, they don't know English." This is after 3 Brits and an Aussie helped her answer a multi-choice question. All 4 answers were correct (Sweater, Pullover. Jumper, Jersey)

My daughter's multiple choice also included one where there were no correct answers. Are the students wrong because their answers are correct, or right because it matches the wrong answers the teachers expect (if you know what I mean)?

[Thai at Heart]

A Thai English teacher told a mate's step daughter. "Don't listen to Farang, they don't know English." This is after 3 Brits and an Aussie helped her answer a multi-choice question. All 4 answers were correct (Sweater, Pullover. Jumper, Jersey)

My daughter's multiple choice also included one where there were no correct answers. Are the students wrong because their answers are correct, or right because it matches the wrong answers the teachers expect (if you know what I mean)?

The weird thing is, why on earth are they persisting in re-writing (incorrectly) the wheel? A bad mixed metaphor. There are thousands of high quality curricula materials available, so why do the schools persist in writing their own incorrect material? My niece is studying at a private tutorial school with materials from the British Council, and I have to admit, it was put together very impressively.

[Maseratimartin]

I have two sons, Thai American. Their English is very good, but I only speak to them in English. They both go to Thai schools, not international schools. One son is in regular class and the other is in HM the Kings class at the same school. The quality of teaching is different. in the Kings class the English teacher is from the USA. In the regular class they are Philippine or Indian.

When I came here in 1966, I was in the US Army and worked with Thais. Some of them were very fluent in English, but they were trained by the Army.

The problem with the English language usage in Thailand is oral communication and comprehension. The majority listen to the English and than translate it to Thai in their head. Professor Brown at AUA taught the total immersion program, learn by listening.

What you want to say with the teacher thing....USA or Philipine/India...?

Many Philipine and India people speak a better english than US citizens!

Myself coming from Germany where english is a required subject in school got many times positive comments from US people about the clear, nice and correct english I speak...

You can say about India what you want but their education system is top notch!

[joeaverage]

The problem is nothing to do with white teachers. The majority of Thais are taught by Thai teachers who are afraid to speak english (even if they could), and use Thai 95% of the time. I'm still astounded that the average government school graduate can say barely more than hello, even after 12 years of learning english. There are plenty of excellent speakers of english here, educated in private / international schools / overseas, but they are in the vast minority of all citizens.

This gets to the heart of the problem with Thai teachers passing on the bad English they themselves were taught. I taught for quite a few years including university level and soon stopped being surprised at the stories the students told me of how they had learned, or not learned , in High School.

Most had never really put a sentence or two of spoken English together in class as the teacher couldn't handle it and the students knew it.

I know quite a few people who have a BA in English but from their spoken English you would never believe it.

THE #1 most common one is calling milk "mel" - Thais are perfeclty capable of pronuncgin milk reaosnably well but some text book from 10,000 years ago transliterated it as "mel" and its been copied infinitum.

some pronounce it 'mil', and it is just a matter of not aspirating the final consonant.

[joeaverage]

Maybe the problem is with the level of foreign English teachers that are hired here.

Native English speaking teachers are in a minority schools and have their efforts negated by their students having other English lessons with Thai teachers.

Mind you, if the 'foreign English teachers' don't have English as their first language (eg Filipinos), the Thai education system doesn't seem to be helping itself.

my daughter was taught to read by teachers from the philippines and they did an excellent job.

My only regret is she had to move on, as sh outgrew their curriculum, Give me a qualified philipino any day over many of the unqualified native speakers i see regularly who think they can teach english by birthright

Perhaps the positive we can take out of this is that Thailand will come to the conclusion that it finally needs to up its game

Edited June 12, 2013 by joeaverage

[Thai at Heart]

Maybe the problem is with the level of foreign English teachers that are hired here.

Native English speaking teachers are in a minority schools and have their efforts negated by their students having other English lessons with Thai teachers.

Mind you, if the 'foreign English teachers' don't have English as their first language (eg Filipinos), the Thai education system doesn't seem to be helping itself.

my daughter was taught to read by teachers from the philippines and they did an excellent job.

My only regret is she had to move on, as sh outgrew their curriculum, Give me a qualified philipino any day over many of the unqualified native speakers i see regularly who think they can teach english by birthright

Perhaps the positive we can take out of this is that Thailand will come to the conclusion that it finally needs to up its game

This is an issue that I hear from teacher friends, that the teaching of grammar in English is the preserve almost entirely of native Thai teachers. Surely this is a biiiig mistake.

[deecee10]

The problem is nothing to do with white teachers. The majority of Thais are taught by Thai teachers who are afraid to speak english (even if they could), and use Thai 95% of the time. I'm still astounded that the average government school graduate can say barely more than hello, even after 12 years of learning english. There are plenty of excellent speakers of english here, educated in private / international schools / overseas, but they are in the vast minority of all citizens.

Can a minority be 'vast'?

Just asking.

[DocN]

Just one more example:

I have a friend who lives with his Thai- wife and his two children (5,7) in Khao Lak.

They have a small bungalow- resort and the children interact with the guests freely.

Both children speak Thai and German as their mother(father) tongue.

They both start picking up English now, the older one (a girls) is already able to have a conversation in English, the boy is learning fast.

And guess what? Since the maids, who take care of the bungalows and the house ...and sometimes of the kids...are from Burma...they communicate with them in Burmese.

Last time I visited, the girl insisted to speak English with me, when she found out, that I could!

It is a lot about interest and encouragement!

[jpinx]

Before we dump too hard on the Thai community there is one thing i have not seen mentioned. 3 of the 5 were colonies of an English speaking country

SINGAPORE - VERY BRITISH

MALAYSIA - ALSO VERY BRITISH

PHILIPPINES - VERY AMERICAN How many bases are there or were there.

That is why they are so high actually they should be higher considering.

Thailand will not and cannot become a bilingual country thru education. Sure the kids are learning but as has been stated there is not enough English speaking organizations to further there abilities.

a studetn to me

Teacher i like English but cannot learn it.

When you leave the class do you speak English with your classmates?

Not really we are Thai

When you go home do you speak English to your parents?

no they are Thai and do not speak English.

So what you are saying is the only time you speak English is in class with me or when you see me.

Yes teacher.

And?

This is the way, English is tought all over the world.

That's the way I learned it, being from Germany.

But at least in our English classes, we SPOKE English and did not exclusively learned grammar.

There are many ways to practice English!

Get DVD's in English and with Thai- subtitles, f.e.

Read English books, listen to English music.

But of course, you have to be interested!

If you just listen to Thai- music because it is so sanook or watch only Thai (dubed) movies, because "pasa angrid" makes you "bod hua"....

The owner of a restaurant in Surat Thani came to my table and struck up a conversation. Once I got over the shock at the quality of his English skills, I asked him where he learned to speak so well. He said, "Watching Movies on DVD". I ask every Thai with good English skills where they learned them and none of them reply, "At university". It is all about desire. My Thai GF reads the BP to me most evenings and when she comes to a word that she either can't pronounce or doesn't understand the meaning, she will ask me. She has less 'Thai' accent than my Thai friend who spent 25 years in the U.S. Thais have to 'want' to learn; they are quite intelligent but many are intellectually lazy.

Your example proves the same as my experience -- people who want to will learn and will do it well. Thai people are wonderfully casual about everything - including their education and their own language. Have you noticed how often they mis-understand each other? This is the lack of the 3 R's in basic thai education. Classes are casual at best and dumbed down to to the level of the slowest learner. There are some great teachers and some terrible ones, but the system is so broken that the kids all come out with what they WANTED to learn - not what they HAD to learn.

[Thai at Heart]

Just one more example:

I have a friend who lives with his Thai- wife and his two children (5,7) in Khao Lak.

They have a small bungalow- resort and the children interact with the guests freely.

Both children speak Thai and German as their mother(father) tongue.

They both start picking up English now, the older one (a girls) is already able to have a conversation in English, the boy is learning fast.

And guess what? Since the maids, who take care of the bungalows and the house ...and sometimes of the kids...are from Burma...they communicate with them in Burmese.

Last time I visited, the girl insisted to speak English with me, when she found out, that I could!

It is a lot about interest and encouragement!

I bought a book when my son was born about how to encourage bilingualism, ironically written by a female Welsh/English speaking language professor married to an English speaking University professor living in Belgium. She catalogued very well how to make sure the kids could obtain the ability to speak Welsh, English, and the local lingo.

It catalogued all of the various combinations of married couples and where they lived and how best to go about encouraging bilingualism or the retention of a mother tongue. I loved the piece about a Japanese family who had been posted to Iceland for a long term job on an engineering project, and their concerns about how to make sure the new born child learned Japanese without any Japanese schooling, the family should go about learning better English and Icelandic. At 6, the child was trilingual to an acceptable level in all 3 languages.

My pet hate is watching Thai mothers conversing with their kids in English, while Dad attempts to speak broken Thai with them. Absolutely counter intuitive.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[gerryBScot]

"This is an issue that I hear from teacher friends, that the teaching of grammar in English is the preserve almost entirely of native Thai teachers. Surely this is a biiiig mistake."

ThaiatHeart I disagree with you on this. A competent Thai teacher should do the grammar especially if it involves explanation. How do you explain number, meaning singular and plural, to children whose language uses a totally different structure to express it? How can I possibly explain this with my very limited Thai? The native speaker should be organising activities which support and re-inforce the particular grammar point.

Yeah there are also big issues about teacher quality. If you have the paperwork ( and a white face) you can get a job easily, but the paperwork doesn't actually mean you can engage children in the classroom.

[millwall_fan]

Until Thai schools engage native English teachers to teach English, the standard will always be the poorest in Asia.

.........and that the teachers they engage are properly qualified and not an out of work bricklayers looking to earn a bit of extra cash. Trouble is when they do employ decent teachers they have to pay then far more than the Thai teachers which naturally causes resentment. The system is underfunded and undervalued.

One other contribution: I can remember my (Thai) niece when she was 11 or 12 getting stuck on her English homework and her mother asking me to help out (read: do it for her!) When I looked at the paper it contained questions like 'who were the first inhabitants of America?' The pupils had to select the answer from a mass of choices at the bottom of the paper. I couldn't find any word that fitted. In the end by a process of elimination the answer proved to be 'Red Indians' which my American friends tell me is somewhat out of date! This was in a 'good' school in Chiang Mai.

[Thai at Heart]

"This is an issue that I hear from teacher friends, that the teaching of grammar in English is the preserve almost entirely of native Thai teachers. Surely this is a biiiig mistake."

ThaiatHeart I disagree with you on this. A competent Thai teacher should do the grammar especially if it involves explanation. How do you explain number, meaning singular and plural, to children whose language uses a totally different structure to express it? How can I possibly explain this with my very limited Thai? The native speaker should be organising activities which support and re-inforce the particular grammar point.

Yeah there are also big issues about teacher quality. If you have the paperwork ( and a white face) you can get a job easily, but the paperwork doesn't actually mean you can engage children in the classroom.

Reportedly, a friend of mine who has just started teaching, recently told me that it is absolutely off limits for the foreign teachers to get involved in grammar. I was spoilt with my school teaching me French. The lessons were 100% in French from the age of 8. I think the issue is more that they are prioritising the whole thing incorrectly anyway. i liken it to how I was taught Latin, as a completely academic exercise of understanding, knowing that there will be little or no practical usage beyond school.

5, to 9 year olds should be encouraged to speak and start reading English out loud. It is too young to get into the technicalities of grammar without these building blocks and familiarity. What I understand of it from my kids curriculum in a bilingual school, and what my friend tells me working in a bilingual government program, 75% of the class cannot speak correctly formed sentences, and can read rudimentally out loud,and yet they are being bombarded with advanced English grammar in the Thai part of the curriculum. Is Thailand wanting students who can interpret Chaucer or Jane Austen, or people who can use English practically? I think Thailand would be more than happy to have 20 year old university grads who can write and comprehend, to the level of 15 year old native speakers, and speak clearly. What they have today are technically educated graduates with the comprehension ability of 10 year olds, who are too shy to speak.

My niece, at 22, can analyse all the various technical grammatical parts of any English sentence you choose to put in front of her, but can she read it out loud correctly? Nope. Can she understand the meaning? Not really. Beyond that, her level of vocabulary is very low, because she was never given enough reading comprehension. She got an "A" in English leaving high school she told me last night.

It's a hell of a lot easier to understand how and where to use the the various tenses if you have read them 1000 times in books without understanding 100% the precise meaning in time.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[Thai at Heart]

Until Thai schools engage native English teachers to teach English, the standard will always be the poorest in Asia.

.........and that the teachers they engage are properly qualified and not an out of work bricklayers looking to earn a bit of extra cash. Trouble is when they do employ decent teachers they have to pay then far more than the Thai teachers which naturally causes resentment. The system is underfunded and undervalued.

One other contribution: I can remember my (Thai) niece when she was 11 or 12 getting stuck on her English homework and her mother asking me to help out (read: do it for her!) When I looked at the paper it contained questions like 'who were the first inhabitants of America?' The pupils had to select the answer from a mass of choices at the bottom of the paper. I couldn't find any word that fitted. In the end by a process of elimination the answer proved to be 'Red Indians' which my American friends tell me is somewhat out of date! This was in a 'good' school in Chiang Mai.

They have turned it into a business. There are thousands of retirees who would be more than qualified to get involved in teaching junior school English, but the work permit issues prohibit it.

[brewsterbudgen]

Until Thai schools engage native English teachers to teach English, the standard will always be the poorest in Asia.

Until the English language is spoken widely every day across Thai society (as it is in Hong Kong, India, The Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore etc) the standard will always be the poorest in Asia! (but much better that Laos Cambodia, Burma and Vietnam - -hooray hooray! There's hope for Thailand yet!)

R

Exactly. It's silly to compare Thailand to countries where English is an official second language.

[Unkomoncents]

A Thai English teacher told a mate's step daughter. "Don't listen to Farang, they don't know English." This is after 3 Brits and an Aussie helped her answer a multi-choice question. All 4 answers were correct (Sweater, Pullover. Jumper, Jersey)

My daughter's multiple choice also included one where there were no correct answers. Are the students wrong because their answers are correct, or right because it matches the wrong answers the teachers expect (if you know what I mean)?

The weird thing is, why on earth are they persisting in re-writing (incorrectly) the wheel? A bad mixed metaphor. There are thousands of high quality curricula materials available, so why do the schools persist in writing their own incorrect material? My niece is studying at a private tutorial school with materials from the British Council, and I have to admit, it was put together very impressively.

That's, I think, indicative of the deeper problem: to accept that they can't write the materials properly is to lose face in front of their acquaintances, friends, neighbors, etc. They're literally playing a whole different game in life. In many cultures, reputation is extremely important and this acts as kind of variance of the "face" concept that is prevalent in descriptions of East Asian cultures. The intense thing about Thais is that the importance of saving face has been magnified, it seems, many times compared with what you might see in Japan or Korea, for example. A Korean woman once complained to me in Bangkok that, "Thais don't know how to say sorry if they do something wrong." I found that fascinating, as a strong "face-saving" thread is woven into Korean culture. Nevertheless, even they notice the extreme to which Thais take the concept of saving face. It literally becomes the prevailing ethic in the society at large, with nearly everyone focused on it to the exclusion of other values such as quality, honesty, and even compassion. It would be impossible to impart real knowledge to a people who 1) don't really believe that they are flawed or capable of failure and 2) are completely obsessed with mere badges of accomplishment purely for the purpose of gaining the respect of other Thais.

This is why I see twenty-something, Bangkok Thais driving their Mini-Coopers around like the car is a Ferrari. Never mind that on the international market, a Mini-Cooper is the rough equivalent of a Honda Accord. And never mind that those who are foolish enough to buy a Mini-Cooper in Thailand have been duped by their own Custom's Department into pay nearly three times what the car is worth (which for those aware of alternative philosophies concerning wealth, would qualify as a significant loss of face). Most Thais haven't even noticed. It's price tag in Thailand (the only place on earth most Thais are conscious of on an everyday basis) makes the Mini-Cooper "hi-so", and as long as they can show off their "luxury" car to Khun Nong, then all is good in the world. When you listen to a Thai speak of his or her accomplishments, pay very close attention to the importance that they place on your reaction to their assumed "status" that they believe results from such accomplishments.

[PaullyW]

A Thai English teacher told a mate's step daughter. "Don't listen to Farang, they don't know English." This is after 3 Brits and an Aussie helped her answer a multi-choice question. All 4 answers were correct (Sweater, Pullover. Jumper, Jersey)

My daughter's multiple choice also included one where there were no correct answers. Are the students wrong because their answers are correct, or right because it matches the wrong answers the teachers expect (if you know what I mean)?

The weird thing is, why on earth are they persisting in re-writing (incorrectly) the wheel? A bad mixed metaphor. There are thousands of high quality curricula materials available, so why do the schools persist in writing their own incorrect material? My niece is studying at a private tutorial school with materials from the British Council, and I have to admit, it was put together very impressively.

That's, I think, indicative of the deeper problem: to accept that they can't write the materials properly is to lose face in front of their acquaintances, friends, neighbors, etc. They're literally playing a whole different game in life. In many cultures, reputation is extremely important and this acts as kind of variance of the "face" concept that is prevalent in descriptions of East Asian cultures. The intense thing about Thais is that the importance of saving face has been magnified, it seems, many times compared with what you might see in Japan or Korea, for example. A Korean woman once complained to me in Bangkok that, "Thais don't know how to say sorry if they do something wrong." I found that fascinating, as a strong "face-saving" thread is woven into Korean culture. Nevertheless, even they notice the extreme to which Thais take the concept of saving face. It literally becomes the prevailing ethic in the society at large, with nearly everyone focused on it to the exclusion of other values such as quality, honesty, and even compassion. It would be impossible to impart real knowledge to a people who 1) don't really believe that they are flawed or capable of failure and 2) are completely obsessed with mere badges of accomplishment purely for the purpose of gaining the respect of other Thais.

This is why I see twenty-something, Bangkok Thais driving their Mini-Coopers around like the car is a Ferrari. Never mind that on the international market, a Mini-Cooper is the rough equivalent of a Honda Accord. And never mind that those who are foolish enough to buy a Mini-Cooper in Thailand have been duped by their own Custom's Department into pay nearly three times what the car is worth (which for those aware of alternative philosophies concerning wealth, would qualify as a significant loss of face). Most Thais haven't even noticed. It's price tag in Thailand (the only place on earth most Thais are conscious of on an everyday basis) makes the Mini-Cooper "hi-so", and as long as they can show off their "luxury" car to Khun Nong, then all is good in the world. When you listen to a Thai speak of his or her accomplishments, pay very close attention to the importance that they place on your reaction to their assumed "status" that they believe results from such accomplishments.

Excellent post. I enjoyed reading it.

[Scott]

The emphasis and teaching of grammar by the Thai Teachers is probably done because it so much easier to test students. The emphasis on tests in Thailand is part of the problem and very few people in the country could design a test of English.

[roego]

The problem is that when you talk about a Thai learning English, many take the view that you aresaying thay a re not a good enough person.

I have written to a few Education departments and never had a reply.

I always explained I did not want to earn big money. Just enough to live on.I wanted to help. But I am over 60 into the bargain, so no interest.

Edited June 12, 2013 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[asiamaster]

A Thai English teacher told a mate's step daughter. "Don't listen to Farang, they don't know English." This is after 3 Brits and an Aussie helped her answer a multi-choice question. All 4 answers were correct (Sweater, Pullover. Jumper, Jersey)

My daughter's multiple choice also included one where there were no correct answers. Are the students wrong because their answers are correct, or right because it matches the wrong answers the teachers expect (if you know what I mean)?

The weird thing is, why on earth are they persisting in re-writing (incorrectly) the wheel? A bad mixed metaphor. There are thousands of high quality curricula materials available, so why do the schools persist in writing their own incorrect material? My niece is studying at a private tutorial school with materials from the British Council, and I have to admit, it was put together very impressively.

The bilingual ( English Programme) school my kids attended used materials from the British Council. Also books from Hong Kong and Singapore which are far better than the Thai -English books. Because of that they were able to pass IGCSE English Second Language Advanced, Mathematics and Science examinations at the British Council But of course they are more expensive and if the government schools would change to these some Thai influential publishers might lose their piece of the cake . Also I doubt if the Thai -English teachers could work properly with these materials!

Edited June 12, 2013 by asiamaster

[gerryBScot]

"This is an issue that I hear from teacher friends, that the teaching of grammar in English is the preserve almost entirely of native Thai teachers. Surely this is a biiiig mistake."

ThaiatHeart I disagree with you on this. A competent Thai teacher should do the grammar especially if it involves explanation. How do you explain number, meaning singular and plural, to children whose language uses a totally different structure to express it? How can I possibly explain this with my very limited Thai? The native speaker should be organising activities which support and re-inforce the particular grammar point.

Yeah there are also big issues about teacher quality. If you have the paperwork ( and a white face) you can get a job easily, but the paperwork doesn't actually mean you can engage children in the classroom.

Reportedly, a friend of mine who has just started teaching, recently told me that it is absolutely off limits for the foreign teachers to get involved in grammar. I was spoilt with my school teaching me French. The lessons were 100% in French from the age of 8. I think the issue is more that they are prioritising the whole thing incorrectly anyway. i liken it to how I was taught Latin, as a completely academic exercise of understanding, knowing that there will be little or no practical usage beyond school.

5, to 9 year olds should be encouraged to speak and start reading English out loud. It is too young to get into the technicalities of grammar without these building blocks and familiarity. What I understand of it from my kids curriculum in a bilingual school, and what my friend tells me working in a bilingual government program, 75% of the class cannot speak correctly formed sentences, and can read rudimentally out loud,and yet they are being bombarded with advanced English grammar in the Thai part of the curriculum. Is Thailand wanting students who can interpret Chaucer or Jane Austen, or people who can use English practically? I think Thailand would be more than happy to have 20 year old university grads who can write and comprehend, to the level of 15 year old native speakers, and speak clearly. What they have today are technically educated graduates with the comprehension ability of 10 year olds, who are too shy to speak.

My niece, at 22, can analyse all the various technical grammatical parts of any English sentence you choose to put in front of her, but can she read it out loud correctly? Nope. Can she understand the meaning? Not really. Beyond that, her level of vocabulary is very low, because she was never given enough reading comprehension. She got an "A" in English leaving high school she told me last night.

It's a hell of a lot easier to understand how and where to use the the various tenses if you have read them 1000 times in books without understanding 100% the precise meaning in time.

I agree with you this time! Teaching reading is, however, a real science if not an art form and calls for the most astonishingly skilled and knowledgeable teachers and that is in the context of L1 to L1, ie English to English; it becomes even more complex when it is L1 to L2. It's an incredibly slow process too.

As a parent of a soon to be 4 year old boy I am absorbed by watching his progress. I am kinda reluctant to get over involved in his educational development but from watching him do things like jig saw puzzles I notice that he cannot distinguish between straight lines, curved lines and corners. All perfectly normal for such a young learner. In his Thai school classroom he gets bombarded with copying letters in both English and Thai, page after page of mindlessness, a completely meaningless activity, especially in such volume; he has only recently mastered the correct way to hold a pencil in his fingers.

I notice also they use Thai produced material to introduce the kids to letters and sounds: the basic rule here is to teach kids to be able to correctly sound each letter (or letters/diphthongs ) in their most common form : "Ay. ( as in "ay") Ah....Apple", for example and to lead them progressively to be able to sound out short clusters of sounds like "sat=" : "sih-ah- tih= sat". Of course English like every other language has irregular grammar and irregular phonics. So the material my son is using comes to "E"; maybe he should learn "Ee Eh Egg"; that is the basic E sound, although this sound changes to "Ee" in Pete etc. The word chosen for E in my sons material is even more irregular "Ee Aye Eye" - Thai produced!

The irony is there are a number of qualified and experienced native speaker teachers in our school and very few of the Thai teachers ever ask for help... there are a couple who do and not surprisingly they are acknowledged to be the best teachers in the school. This failure led to the production of a fancy, expensive poster for Chinese New Year: the banner was headed: "Happy Chainese's New Year" ....... I have a photo of it. But this is a phenomenon every conscientious native speaker teacher will have encountered in some form if they work here.

I like living here and so I've learned to accept it to some extent - little gain in challenging anything. However I do my best for the kids and parents in every class I teach and I see very real progress among my students. I would like to do more for those who have clear learning needs - sadly these kids usually get no remedial help. A shame because such developmental problems are universal and most kids do respond to assistance. I couldn't speak clearly myself until I was 8/9, but eventually I did thanks to what was then known in Scotland as "Child Guidance" : I had a weekly session with an educational psychologist. Of course some people still don't understand a word I say!

Aye, I pity the parents in this country who not unreasonably want to do the best for the kids and give them a decent education.

[Lancelot]

My daughters had to learn 3 languages - Thai, the (Oz) English we spoke at home, and the Thai Engrish they spoke at school.

Before their first Engrish lesson, they already spoke better English than their teacher, but had to learn to mispronounce and add superfluous vowels (Suprite, sukool) to meet her low standards.

This is so true- when many Thais do speak english their pronunciation is often unintelligible to native english speakers. "Lotun" for Lotus (Tesco)

I've had this pronunciation debate with other english speakers, but most insist that the Thais see these as "loan" words adn therefore pronounce them in the typical Thai fashion.

Guess we've "loaned" them the entire english language

( I do understand that most of us will have some what of a foreign accent when we try to learn a new language; however, there is a difference between making an attempt to adopt the new language's pronunciation- and not giving a rat's ass )

[WilliamCave]

At my house I speak English to my kids. My son can carry a conversation with me with out a problem in English .

But he goes to school and the Thai teachers tell hm his English is not that good , so one day I went to the school and tried to talk to the teacher and she couldn't carry a conversation with me,

My son had to translate for me what she was saying and she had the deer in the head lights look when my son was translating to English for me something she was mot capable of doing.

My son is learning English , not a Thai version of English

[Thai at Heart]

"This is an issue that I hear from teacher friends, that the teaching of grammar in English is the preserve almost entirely of native Thai teachers. Surely this is a biiiig mistake."

ThaiatHeart I disagree with you on this. A competent Thai teacher should do the grammar especially if it involves explanation. How do you explain number, meaning singular and plural, to children whose language uses a totally different structure to express it? How can I possibly explain this with my very limited Thai? The native speaker should be organising activities which support and re-inforce the particular grammar point.

Yeah there are also big issues about teacher quality. If you have the paperwork ( and a white face) you can get a job easily, but the paperwork doesn't actually mean you can engage children in the classroom.

Reportedly, a friend of mine who has just started teaching, recently told me that it is absolutely off limits for the foreign teachers to get involved in grammar. I was spoilt with my school teaching me French. The lessons were 100% in French from the age of 8. I think the issue is more that they are prioritising the whole thing incorrectly anyway. i liken it to how I was taught Latin, as a completely academic exercise of understanding, knowing that there will be little or no practical usage beyond school.

5, to 9 year olds should be encouraged to speak and start reading English out loud. It is too young to get into the technicalities of grammar without these building blocks and familiarity. What I understand of it from my kids curriculum in a bilingual school, and what my friend tells me working in a bilingual government program, 75% of the class cannot speak correctly formed sentences, and can read rudimentally out loud,and yet they are being bombarded with advanced English grammar in the Thai part of the curriculum. Is Thailand wanting students who can interpret Chaucer or Jane Austen, or people who can use English practically? I think Thailand would be more than happy to have 20 year old university grads who can write and comprehend, to the level of 15 year old native speakers, and speak clearly. What they have today are technically educated graduates with the comprehension ability of 10 year olds, who are too shy to speak.

My niece, at 22, can analyse all the various technical grammatical parts of any English sentence you choose to put in front of her, but can she read it out loud correctly? Nope. Can she understand the meaning? Not really. Beyond that, her level of vocabulary is very low, because she was never given enough reading comprehension. She got an "A" in English leaving high school she told me last night.

It's a hell of a lot easier to understand how and where to use the the various tenses if you have read them 1000 times in books without understanding 100% the precise meaning in time.

I agree with you this time! Teaching reading is, however, a real science if not an art form and calls for the most astonishingly skilled and knowledgeable teachers and that is in the context of L1 to L1, ie English to English; it becomes even more complex when it is L1 to L2. It's an incredibly slow process too.

As a parent of a soon to be 4 year old boy I am absorbed by watching his progress. I am kinda reluctant to get over involved in his educational development but from watching him do things like jig saw puzzles I notice that he cannot distinguish between straight lines, curved lines and corners. All perfectly normal for such a young learner. In his Thai school classroom he gets bombarded with copying letters in both English and Thai, page after page of mindlessness, a completely meaningless activity, especially in such volume; he has only recently mastered the correct way to hold a pencil in his fingers.

I notice also they use Thai produced material to introduce the kids to letters and sounds: the basic rule here is to teach kids to be able to correctly sound each letter (or letters/diphthongs ) in their most common form : "Ay. ( as in "ay") Ah....Apple", for example and to lead them progressively to be able to sound out short clusters of sounds like "sat=" : "sih-ah- tih= sat". Of course English like every other language has irregular grammar and irregular phonics. So the material my son is using comes to "E"; maybe he should learn "Ee Eh Egg"; that is the basic E sound, although this sound changes to "Ee" in Pete etc. The word chosen for E in my sons material is even more irregular "Ee Aye Eye" - Thai produced!

The irony is there are a number of qualified and experienced native speaker teachers in our school and very few of the Thai teachers ever ask for help... there are a couple who do and not surprisingly they are acknowledged to be the best teachers in the school. This failure led to the production of a fancy, expensive poster for Chinese New Year: the banner was headed: "Happy Chainese's New Year" ....... I have a photo of it. But this is a phenomenon every conscientious native speaker teacher will have encountered in some form if they work here.

I like living here and so I've learned to accept it to some extent - little gain in challenging anything. However I do my best for the kids and parents in every class I teach and I see very real progress among my students. I would like to do more for those who have clear learning needs - sadly these kids usually get no remedial help. A shame because such developmental problems are universal and most kids do respond to assistance. I couldn't speak clearly myself until I was 8/9, but eventually I did thanks to what was then known in Scotland as "Child Guidance" : I had a weekly session with an educational psychologist. Of course some people still don't understand a word I say!

Aye, I pity the parents in this country who not unreasonably want to do the best for the kids and give them a decent education.

As every good parent, I promised myself that i would sit every night and read with my kids, but of course, it never quite pans out that way. We have done quite a lot of reading together, but not as much as it should be. However, I have strictly stuck to the rule that I never speak to them in Thai, and make sure that I speak to them as correctly in English as possible. They have turned out excellently bilingual so far. Trying to get them to write 150 word creative stories about anything that comes into their mind at the moment. All of a sudden they are whizzing through the "Famous Five", and I have to say, that ebooks are the way forward for that.

I don't think anyone can ever say that kids in Thailand (let alone the rest of the world) read enough, so, even if it is 30 minutes a night before bedtime a few nights a week, it is a hell of a lot better than nothing. When it comes to English, as a native speaker, you can have by far the most influence on your child's early development in English.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[Sigurris]

Some observations from the year I spent teaching English with a prominent Language school in Pattya:

Whilst teaching at GM I twice had students ask for higher grades because their manager had told them that my English was incorrect. Their manager was senior to them and older as well as being Thai. Guess who they believed?

Whilst in a language school I observed a Thai teacher teaching a Thai student English. She wrote on the board,' I no go Big C!

I met two Thai teachers with degrees in English teaching English at State schools. Neither could carry on a basic conversation with me.

The school I worked for had a standard textbook which was obviously written for the American market. So famous places and people were US centric and of no use to most Thais. However the pressure was on to work through the book as quickly as possible, moving from lesson to lesson regardless of whether it was understood.

Little or no assessment was done with students to gauge their needs or levels before assigning them teachers or classes. So I had a Thai student turn up for an advanced business English class whose English was basic to say the least. I also turned up to a company with my beginners book to teach two Thai students who had studied in the US and were near fluent! Both times I was told assessments had been done.

This professional language school was more interested in taking the money than finding the right fit between student, course and teacher.