Can i not pay utility bill to bad Thai landlord ?

[Holysteel]

I have rented a business place from a Thai. For 80,000 baht per month. With 2 months advance deposit (160,000baht) My money, not his !!

Before we moved in. The place was in a whole mess. We have renovated & repaired the place out of our own money out of goodwill, as he refused to do or maintain it. We done the electrical wiring, re-haul the place, place new tiles, fixed a big hole on roof, Aircons repair, paint walls, light bulbs, etc in a total of 200,000 baht, out of our own pocket. We have the photograph evidence to prove it.

Now, we have agreed on renting the place for 1 year with each year renewable up to 2 years per cycle. During the day, of signing the rental contract. He put 2 years in writing, which i could not read, he twisted it in speaking, giving me the wrong impression that we have understood the original terms.

There is also a building tax, that the Thais call - par see loom lern - cant spell it. I thought this was to be paid by the landlord? What has the land/property taxs has to do with us ?

I need to get back this f...er in some ways, maybe not even 50-50, just 10-20% will do. I am planning to move out soon at a last notice. So my questions is this =

1) Can i not pay my utility bills? I assume i still have my deposit money with him. 160,000 baht !!! He could cut it from there & still have a large sum with him.

2) Can he somehow sue me for not paying the electrical bill? Is this possible in courts? assuming he got the deposit. who will lose? From what i understand. The courts will just order him to cut from his deposit.

3) Is the contract even legal by law? Or it need to have a lawyer presence with a stamp ?

4) Is there just a thing that the property tax is paid by the tenant ?

Kindly advise. Just dun want to get into trouble on the legal side.

Thanks

[Cluey]

Sounds to me like you really mostly screwed yourself.

Of course the landlord doesn't have to fix up anything after the contract's signed unless it's spelled out, why did you take over the property without doing a proper inspection first? And why pay such a huge rent in the first place, that's like Siam Square or lower Sukhumvit rates.

No lawyer stamp or such is required, but if you sign a contract without being able to understand it, without having it translated and reviewed with an attorney, som nam na.

If the utilities are in your own name then it's your problem, but in either case you are legally obliged to pay, he can deduct from your deposit.

If you're having such problems with him you're likely to lose all the deposit anyway, not practical to try to get it back if he doesn't want to give it, I'd advise taking a more positive tack with him.

Only good news here is you're not liable for his property tax, unless that's specifically mentioned in the contract, which I guess you still don't know.

Certainly nothing to be gained by trying to exact "revenge", I'd say pay the lot and chalk it up to experience - and do learn from it. . .

Edited June 12, 2013 by Cluey

[Kitsune]

Never ever invest a single Baht in a Thai rented property.

Sorry but photo or not, you will never see your 200 000 !

Edited June 12, 2013 by Kitsune

[Rooo]

Moving to real estate.

[Cluey]

Never ever invest a single Baht in a Thai rented property.

-

That's very silly, I've only heard Thais say this. I can afford to pay B30,000 per month. I find a house that needs work for B10,000, and know I'm going to stay there for at least three years, and secure a rolling 3-year lease.

If I want to fix the place up so I can really enjoy living in it, I now have a B240,000 budget to spend on improvements, even given the fact that I can take lots of them with me when I go - of course having spelled that out in the lease. And to a higher quality standard of work and exactly to my taste.

If I stay for five years rather than three then I'm still definitely ahead of the game, would probably paint again for example, replace a couple of appliances, air conditioners etc.

A bit more upscale example: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/greathomesanddestinations/14iht-rebangkok14.html

Sorry but photo or not, you will never see your 200 000 !

What gives you that idea? As long as he approaches things with the right attitude, odds are in my experience much better than 50/50. But perhaps he's already gotten confrontational with the man himself rather than just here, in which case you're probably right.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Cluey

[Holysteel]

Its my mistake actually. I bring an inexperienced young Thai with me. To help with the translation. She failed to spell out the terms to me correctly & let the landlord do all the talking & manipulating.

I do willing to take it all up & cut my losses. taking it as an experience. And learn from it.

But i am also planning to turn on the aircons in every room and let it run for 24 hrs. Not paying a baht to the electrical bill, just to 'offset' my deposit alittle. And feel better. The bill is not in my name.

Can i do this ?

Advises please.

Thanks

[Holysteel]

Ah no Cluey.

I have talked to him nicely. I told him contract and the legal binding aside. We talk man as to another man. As a human being to one another.

I told him i have spent alot on his property renovating . i cant take it with me. Its his.

As stated in the contract. Even though i still feel pissed off alittle. That it is 2 years. The deposit is his all right.

I told him as a man to another. Can we come to some sort of an goodwill agreement that we split the deposit 50-50. I take back 1 month deposit. he keep the another 1 month.

The answer is NO.

[Holysteel]

I also read somewhere. That there are ways to f..... with the landlords, if we wanted to.

Just tell him casually that we are going to inform the Thai tax revenue dept.

That he has falsely declare the rent amount to the tax dept.

This can give him alot of trouble.

[Cluey]

You certainly CAN try to exact some revenge with the electric, but as you point out it's petty change anyway.

And you certainly CAN try to blackmail him assuming he's not paying the proper taxes.

However both "strategies" may well lead to unintended consequences as they say and I don't advise anything like this at all.

I hope the fact that I'm stating the above in such reasonable language doesn't cause you to underestimate the vehemence of my opinion - DON'T DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS!

Fact is the landlord hasn't done anything wrong at all, is completely within his rights legally and morally, you made some pretty silly mistakes and have to wear the consequences as if you were more mature than your posts imply.

[Kitsune]

Never ever invest a single Baht in a Thai rented property.

-

That's very silly, I've only heard Thais say this. I can afford to pay B30,000 per month. I find a house that needs work for B10,000, and know I'm going to stay there for at least three years, and secure a rolling 3-year lease.

If I want to fix the place up so I can really enjoy living in it, I now have a B240,000 budget to spend on improvements, even given the fact that I can take lots of them with me when I go - of course having spelled that out in the lease. And to a higher quality standard of work and exactly to my taste.

If I stay for five years rather than three then I'm still definitely ahead of the game, would probably paint again for example, replace a couple of appliances, air conditioners etc.

A bit more upscale example: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/greathomesanddestinations/14iht-rebangkok14.html

Sorry but photo or not, you will never see your 200 000 !

What gives you that idea? As long as he approaches things with the right attitude, odds are in my experience much better than 50/50. But perhaps he's already gotten confrontational with the man himself rather than just here, in which case you're probably right.

1/Duh it obviously implied (don't make any repairs) if you want to expect to get your money back, like in the topic here....

if you are happy fixing the house paying for it in place of the landlord, good for you.

(Now I understand why Thai landlords never want to make any repairs to farangs tenants)

2/Experience and stories from friends "give me that idea".

To the OP; To avoid any misunderstanding (one year/ 2year, council tax..) next time ask for contract both in English and Thai, so you don't need an "inexperience friend" to translate. Better yet: Offer your landlord to save him the hassle and give him a model contract that you have written yourself (to your advantage of course but not too obvious) as most landlords don't have clue how to write technical law type English and tell him to translate it into Thai. Tell him he can use as a model and modify whatever he wants. This way you have the upper hand as the base is yours and changing the wording will be more challenging for him, also any change would have to be discussed with you.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Kitsune

[CHRISTIANa9]

If u want to leave thailand u better not do anything silly otherwise u maybe stuck here for years as was reported recently on t 2 foreigner taken to task over some damaged furniture.

[monkfish]

It's absolutly 100% normal in Thailand,

if you rent for bizz then you pay the extra bizz tax not the Landlord.

If you put a Bizz sign up outside not attached to the building then you pay tax on it too not the Landlord.

These rules apply to Thai and Foriegner alike and quiet normal.

[Cloggie]

I can remember a storey from a friend of mine who rented a house and painted it at his own cost. After that the landlord increased the rent as the house looked much better now...

Whatever you rent DON'T change anything and don't forget make pictures of everything especially what areas are damaged and both sign them!

Edited June 13, 2013 by Cloggie

[worgeordie]

Never ever invest a single Baht in a Thai rented property.

-

That's very silly, I've only heard Thais say this. I can afford to pay B30,000 per month. I find a house that needs work for B10,000, and know I'm going to stay there for at least three years, and secure a rolling 3-year lease.

If I want to fix the place up so I can really enjoy living in it, I now have a B240,000 budget to spend on improvements, even given the fact that I can take lots of them with me when I go - of course having spelled that out in the lease. And to a higher quality standard of work and exactly to my taste.

If I stay for five years rather than three then I'm still definitely ahead of the game, would probably paint again for example, replace a couple of appliances, air conditioners etc.

A bit more upscale example: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/greathomesanddestinations/14iht-rebangkok14.html

Sorry but photo or not, you will never see your 200 000 !

What gives you that idea? As long as he approaches things with the right attitude, odds are in my experience much better than 50/50. But perhaps he's already gotten confrontational with the man himself rather than just here, in which case you're probably right.

Hi Cluey, you sound like the ideal tenant spending your own money to renovate someone else's property,Wish I could find tenants like you,

regards Worgeordie, PS even if you have a 3 year contract before doing the work,nothing is written in stone when it comes to contracts in Thailand.

[scorecard]

It's absolutly 100% normal in Thailand,

if you rent for bizz then you pay the extra bizz tax not the Landlord.

If you put a Bizz sign up outside not attached to the building then you pay tax on it too not the Landlord.

These rules apply to Thai and Foriegner alike and quiet normal.

"It's absolutly 100% normal in Thailand"

Got nothing to do specifically with Thailand. There are unscrupulous landlords and tenants in every country

[samran]

Hollysteel,

mate, no offence, but you've posted here a number of times basically around harebrained business ideas, or later failed business experiments that seem to have gone south pretty quickly though the lack of proper due dilligence.

Might be a hint to pull the plug on trying to make a quid here?

[joeaverage]

I also read somewhere. That there are ways to f..... with the landlords, if we wanted to.

Just tell him casually that we are going to inform the Thai tax revenue dept.

That he has falsely declare the rent amount to the tax dept.

This can give him alot of trouble.

this is actually very good advice, if you are renting as an individual and not a business. If the property is rented in a company name it is likely he is declaring the rent. this is why many landlords, especially of residential properties will not rent to businesses in their own name.

once they have rented to a business and begun declaring the rent (they have to as businesses declare their rental expenses) it is very hard for them to go back under the table.

it is therefore very likely that at that rent, he is renting commercially, declaring the income already and the threat will have little weight

Edited June 13, 2013 by joeaverage

[LennyW]

I also read somewhere. That there are ways to f..... with the landlords, if we wanted to.

Just tell him casually that we are going to inform the Thai tax revenue dept.

That he has falsely declare the rent amount to the tax dept.

This can give him alot of trouble.

this is actually very good advice, if you are renting as an individual and not a business. If the property is presented in a company name it is likely he is declaring the rent. this is why many landlords, especially of residential properties will not rent to businesses in their own name.

once they have rented to a business and begun declaring the rent (they have to as businesses declare their rental expenses) it is very hard for them to go back under the table.

it is therefore very likely that at that rent, he is renting commercially, declaring the income already and the threat will have little weight

This is why they charge "key money" it is NEVER declared!!

[Paul888]

Its my mistake actually. I bring an inexperienced young Thai with me. To help with the translation. She failed to spell out the terms to me correctly & let the landlord do all the talking & manipulating.

I do willing to take it all up & cut my losses. taking it as an experience. And learn from it.

But i am also planning to turn on the aircons in every room and let it run for 24 hrs. Not paying a baht to the electrical bill, just to 'offset' my deposit alittle. And feel better. The bill is not in my name.

Can i do this ?

Advises please.

Thanks

That is a very stupid and petty thing to do. I suggest in future you don't go anyway, do anything and especially sign anything without consulting a lawyer. You are, (taking into account your other threads and without wishing to be rude), an accident waiting to happen man.

[Holysteel]

Well. Failure is the mother of all success aint it. Albert Einstein the greatest genius ever walked. Failed 10,000 times before he got the light bulb to work. If you did not failed in life before, meaning you did not tried anything new.

I could go on and on giving example of famous successful people who failed, made stupid mistakes, being mocked at & berated upon. Just like what you guys are doing to me now. Lol...

Give me a break guys.. I am just a 29 years old foreign guy living in a completely foreign land. Trying to learn & make a living. Doing the impossible.

By standard, i still a kid. Young & inexperienced..Yeah i admit. But I have done stuffs that even a 40 years old did not have the balls to do it or experienced in their life before. So do me a favor. Dun gang up on me. and shoot down my dream..

Instead shower me with wisdom, advice and encouragement. As a foreign brother or perhaps a uncle, a father. a grandfather to another.

Peace Out.

Steel

Edited June 14, 2013 by Holysteel

[Paul888]

It is ok to make mistakes if you learn from them, but quite often you can avoid making these mistakes in the first place, if you stop and consider for a moment what could possibly go wrong with something before actually doing it.

[samran]

Well. Failure is the mother of all success aint it. Albert Einstein the greatest genius ever walked. Failed 10,000 times before he got the light bulb to work. If you did not failed in life before, meaning you did not tried anything new.

Steel

Yeah, but Einstein didn't invent the light bulb.

And that is the point. You aren't doing your research before you jump into things. It is called doing due diligence.

[johnnyk]

Why bring an "inexperienced young Thai" female to an important negotiation?

What does she know about leases? About negotiating? About legalese? She will tell you what she figures you want to hear to please the Thai landlord.

Sounds like maybe the OP didn't studyThailand 101.

If he did, he would know that younger defers to older in Thailand, male trumps female and Thai loyalty (such as it is) is to their own kind, not falang.

[wooloomooloo]

Instead shower me with wisdom, advice and encouragement.

I do willing to take it all up & cut my losses. taking it as an experience. And learn from it.

Rental agreements translated and notarised. You'll then be more aware of your contractual obligations and that of your landlord.

Fail to cover the basics in LOS and your business days are numbered and matters little how much spare cash you've got to throw at your hobby. You'll give up long before your most beneficent Thai hosts do.

I would take advantage of you. Seriously.

[Holysteel]

Well.. So be it.

So.. Back to the original topic. Can i or can i not pay the electrical bill to the landlord?

I just want to be sure. Dun wana get sue.... ZzZzzzzzzZZzzzz.................

[garyk]

I haven't read any of this but the first few posts. So If I answer same as another sorry. I live and rent here all the time. I love it. I will spend absolutely no money on improvements period. The main reason for me is, rental places are a dime a dozen. Especially a condo or apartment. What I do about once a year is pick a newly built condo or house and rent it. Never had a problem at all. Never tried to rent a business location. So may be different.

But honestly when the guy saw you and you inquired his eyes saw dollar signs. It is part of the Thai culture at this point. You have got to play your cards pretty close to your chest here. 160,000 baht is a lot of money.

[billaaa777]

Albert Einstein the greatest genius ever walked. Failed 10,000 times before he got the light bulb to work.

Good thread, very funny actually.

By the way, it was Thomas Edison that invented the light bulb.