prostate reduction

[cheeryble]

Moe66 wrote: ..................PSA down below 3 estrogen levels down and T levels up never felt better

Always nice to get the T levels up!

Funny, testosterone has been linked to prostate problems because as men get older.......when T levels go down.......their prostate gets bigger.

Edited June 15, 2013 by cheeryble

[Tolley]

I would try the pomegranate juice if I was in the OPs situation as the results from that seem the best and of course it is pretty easy and non expensive.

The test studies had the people drinking 1 8 oz glass of juice a day and the results were pretty remarkable. Even the researchers were surprised.

[cheeryble]

re saw plametto there have been conflicting findings with some studies suggesting efficacy and the more recently published not. I don't think there is any harm in taking it as far as anyone knows, and taking it need not preclude other therapy.

OP needs as a priority to see a good urologist, have manual digital exam and then get the doctor's advice as to whether or not, based on manual findings and the PSA level, immediate biopsy is indicated. If it is not, he will be advised to start medication, with finasteride usually being the first drug of choice. From the described severity of symptoms, I'd suggest complying, but if you want to also take saw palmetto -- or try it alone first -- go ahead.

There are risks to delaying treatment. Even with BPH, serious urinary obstruction can occur leading to infections etc. And of course, with an elevated PSA and not yet even having had a digital exam, there is some risk that you may actually have cancer. You need to exclude that ASAP. The manual exam is a MUST, and should be done by a well qualified and very experienced urologist, I would suggest either Dr. Viroj at Bumrungrad or Dr. Thanoo at Samitivej. While any doctor can palpate an enlarged prostate, doctors specializing in prostate cancer with many years experience are best able to determine whether the enlargement is suggestive of malignancy or not.

If what is deterring you is fear of the biopsy procedure, it is not necessarily going to be required. IF a very experienced, competent urologist , after digital examination, assesses the likelihood of malignancy as low, you can discuss with them deferring biopsy in favor of periodic repeat exams and repeat PSAs while treating for BPH. Of course if they find that their are irregular masses that they assess as suspicious then a biopsy is a must, but odds favor BPH. So please go ahead and have this seen to, I think you have reached the limits of what you can get through online research at this stage.

You are much better off attending a planned appointment with a carefully selected specialist than having to go to an ER with acute urinary obstruction (painful as hell) or a severe infection or even sepsis, all of which can occur in the absence of treatment.

Thankyou Sheryl

may I first mention that my symptoms are very mild. Also my PSA was just above 4 last time (present 5.47), so it's not like it's suddenly taken off.

I usually sleep pretty much through the night and am never caught short, just the beginnings such as incomplete evacuation you might say.

So hoping and expecting it's just BPH, but naturally yes I need the digit.

I have a very favoured GP in CM who last time he did the digit seemed to be very careful about it, far from cursory, I was going to go to him, but take your point about a urologists extra experience.

The only urologist I've seen was an elder (very nice, calm) man some years ago who I realised when I left had given me a scant diagnosis, telling me my prostate was getting a bit enlarged, no recommendations, no prognosis, no mention of a visit next year or anything.........so not too impressed.

Is there a favoured urologist in CM?

Edited June 15, 2013 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

I would try the pomegranate juice if I was in the OPs situation as the results from that seem the best and of course it is pretty easy and non expensive.

The test studies had the people drinking 1 8 oz glass of juice a day and the results were pretty remarkable. Even the researchers were surprised.

Even to a sceptic like me it actually does seem as if pomegranate may be good for a lot of stuff, and I used to buy a dozen cartons at a time.

Trouble is even if unsweetened it entails drinking sugar (fructose), though I know capsules are available with the dry extract which i believe is supposed to retain it's efficacy.

Edited June 15, 2013 by cheeryble

[Sheryl]

http://www.chiangmairam.com/NEW%20CMR/Physician%20Eng/Urology%20Clinic%20Eng%20.html

Prof. Voravat or Assoc. Prof Bannakij

(both are also at Sripat and on faculty at CMU)

[jrtmedic]

Read all about Pomegranate juice here

http://www.ftc.gov/os/adjpro/d9344/120521pomdecision.pdf

and here

http://center4research.org/i-saw-it-on-the-internet/pomegranate-prostate/

and here

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidvinjamuri/2012/05/23/judge-finds-pom-wonderful-advertising-deceptive-but-thats-just-the-tip-of-the-iceberg/

Edited June 15, 2013 by jrtmedic

[cheeryble]

http://www.chiangmairam.com/NEW%20CMR/Physician%20Eng/Urology%20Clinic%20Eng%20.html

Prof. Voravat or Assoc. Prof Bannakij

(both are also at Sripat and on faculty at CMU)

Thankyou Sheryl

...the Ram is my regular place so that fits.

Will consult the favoured GP I mentioned as the health check went through him and normally one does a run through of the results, and take it from there.

[Tolley]

Well came back with a PSA of 5.47 (very much hoping previous post saying prostatectomy for 5 to 6 is incorrect......I am not an expert but doubt a full excision would ever be recommended without a biopsy and high grade of cancer.) I'm 5.47 puts me in a grey area where they might well want to biopsy, and not sure what I think about that. For example, if 99% of cancers can be seen on ultrasound I'd be willing to take my chances with no biopsy. So we know hard masses show up ultrasound.....how good is it at detecting prostate cancers? Again, I'm not in any great state of concern here.......just learning. Whatever happens I'll get the digit!

Last year had some blood work done PSA 10 hehehe did a bit of research and found out that over 10 50 percent chance of cancer. Took a deep breath and contacted a friend who is very knowledgeable about this stuff and after talking to him started on 1mg o0f finesteride every other day also got back on my hormone therapy. Liquid zinc to stop production of estrogen, dim. which balances out estrogen that you do have, testosterone gel and a prostate support supplement containing saw palmetto, stinging nettle and lycopene.

Went back to the states for a visit a few months later and sch. an appointment with a Dr. I know well the PSA down below 3 estrogen levels down and T levels up never felt better and the Dr. said keep up the good work the cancer screening test was negative. Good luck on what you decide but do your on research no matter what some say here most Drs. do not keep up with the latest and the greatest

Congrats for taking control of your own health and achieving good results.

The liquid zinc is especially good idea as the prostate is really highly dependent on zinc.

I also think the evidence is pretty strong when it implicates low T with BPH so boosting T levels seems sensible to me.

[cheeryble]

Read all about Pomegranate juice here

http://center4research.org/i-saw-it-on-the-internet/pomegranate-prostate/

and here

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidvinjamuri/2012/05/23/judge-finds-pom-wonderful-advertising-deceptive-but-thats-just-the-tip-of-the-iceberg/

I had actually read about pomegranate in regard to atherosclerosis some time ago, now adapted a bit and including prostate.

Good thing is they actually quote proper references at the end of all their articles.

Bad news is it always raises a red flag when I read "A study from XXXXX shows YYYYYY".......only a complete picture is good enough and avoids selection and survivability biases.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/feb2007_report_pomegranate_01.htm

[cheeryble]

http://www.chiangmairam.com/NEW%20CMR/Physician%20Eng/Urology%20Clinic%20Eng%20.html

Prof. Voravat or Assoc. Prof Bannakij

(both are also at Sripat and on faculty at CMU)

Just for your future information Sheryl

Prof Vorovat is the elderly gentleman (79 or 80?) i saw some years ago who was terribly nice but somewhat uninformative.

Assoc Prof Bannakij: my wife (works in Ram) says he only has two one hour sessions per week and may be rushed.

She says Phitsanu has at least some American education.....just got back....is 35 or 40, and he has three sessions a week so I may go with him.

Edited June 15, 2013 by cheeryble

[jrtmedic]

cheeryble

Life Extension Magazine cannot be described as a reliable source of peer reviewed scientific research.

This publication falls into the more gross end of the "popular" press !

The "references" given in the article are perhaps questionable ?

Edited June 15, 2013 by jrtmedic

[cheeryble]

cheeryble

Life Extension Magazine cannot be described as a reliable source of peer reviewed scientific research.

This publication falls into the more gross end of the "popular" press !

The "references" given in the article are perhaps questionable ?

cheeryble

Life Extension Magazine cannot be described as a reliable source of peer reviewed scientific research.

This publication falls into the more gross end of the "popular" press !

The "references" given in the article are perhaps questionable ?

jrt

you may well be right I've only skimmed......as I said i already had reservations.

[moe666]

Moe66 wrote: ..................PSA down below 3 estrogen levels down and T levels up never felt better

Always nice to get the T levels up!

Funny, testosterone has been linked to prostate problems because as men get older.......when T levels go down.......their prostate gets bigger.

The issue is that as we age our T converts to estrogen and DHT. Using the zinc stops or slows down the conversion of T to estrogen. We make DHT and some men make more than others as well as the conversion factor, the issue is that DHT and T compete for the same receptor sights on the prostate and as it is 5 time stronger per molecule than T it will win and displace the T causing growth of the prostate over time

[jrtmedic]

moe666

Thank you for that explanation which I do not understand ------could you point me to the academic source of your knowledge.

Many Thanks

[moe666]

cheeryble

Life Extension Magazine cannot be described as a reliable source of peer reviewed scientific research.

This publication falls into the more gross end of the "popular" press !

The "references" given in the article are perhaps questionable ?

cheeryble

Life Extension Magazine cannot be described as a reliable source of peer reviewed scientific research.

This publication falls into the more gross end of the "popular" press !

The "references" given in the article are perhaps questionable ?

jrt

you may well be right I've only skimmed......as I said i already had reservations.

Over the years LEF has funded there own studies on various ageing problems, they are very knowledgeable about many ageing issues but never stop at one source especially when it is your own health. I have a very hard time excepting many main stream studies usually because of the way they are set up in many cases set up to fail

[Bagwan]

Fourteen years ago I attended the Royal Orthopaedic Hospital in Birmingham to find the cause of lower back pain. They were very thorough, could find nothing wrong but as a result of a complete blood analysis told me to consult my GP. He had received a letter stating that my PSA level was 14 and he suggested a digital examination of my prostate was a good idea. Finding everything in good order he referred me to the local hospital where a biopsy of my prostate was taken. 6 samples were taken without even an analgesic, the procedure was completely painless, didn't even feel discomfort, and I was in an out of the hospital in 30 minutes. The test results showed AOK. A further test was taken a year later, same result. I've had a PSA test a few times, each time getting a reading of 13 or 14. I decided not to test again. I have no confidence in it, and neither has the BMA. It is no longer offered to NHS patients in the UK.

About 5 years ago I began to feel a little discomfort behind my naughty bits. After seeing an idiot doctor at a Pattaya private hospital who said that I was having too much sex, I went to THAT hospital in BKK where I saw a urologist. Ultrasound scans were taken before and after urination and having found nothing amiss I was advised to undergo the biopsy procedure again. I was told that this would mean a 3 night stay in the hospital. Day one to settle in and to ensure a good night's sleep, day 2 to undergo the procedure, day 3 to recover and to be discharged the following day. I didn't bite the cherry. No sale. The discomfort disappeared on its own almost immediately afterwards..

A year ago I began to experience problems in emptying my bladder first thing in the morning, having to go to the loo 3, 4 or 5 times and stand as urine dribbled out, seemingly under the force of gravity. Certainly I could not influence the flow or rather the lack of it. I went to another hospital in Chonburi province and saw another urologist. He was rather abrupt but I can put up with that. He asked what was wrong with me and I decided not to play the Smart Alec and reply, 'you're the doctor, you tell me'. I just said BPH, nothing more. No examination, no further questions. He prescribed medication of which the active ingredient is Tamsulosin Hydrochloride and told me to return in 3 months. On my second visit he asked how things had gone and I said that after 2 doses I could have stood in the street and put out a fire on the second floor. It has been that way for 12 months now, no problems at all. My quarterly conversations with the doctor are the very epitome of brevity. He looks at me and says,"OK?" I reply, "OK". Bangs away on his keyboard and says, "3 months." Exit stage left.

[cheeryble]

A great story Bagwan.

Looking forward to an eventual book.... "My Bladder and I"

Edited June 15, 2013 by cheeryble

[Lickey]

At the age of 37 i had my prostate bored out, and a catherta fitted for a few days, the intial problem was having a pee after sex, the pain put me down on my knees crying, so after the opp, i looked into what the prostate gland does,

this gland makes the clear fluid that lubricates the flow of semen up the penis, and if it doesnt, the next flow of urine is very painful, and after sometimes difficult to pass pee,

To be blunt, masturbation and sex is the best way to make the gland work, just make sure that there is signs of the clear fluid before ejaculation, foreplay with your partner 30 mins or so should produce results, web research will show you that 70% of men over 60 who practise this are less lickly to get prostate cancer, you also could look for a site about self prostate massage, this also relieves symptoms,

Once i understood what the prostate does and how to "exercise" it, my problems were gone in 2 days..

[cheeryble]

Glad to hear you took this thing into your own hands Lickey.

To also be straightforward, I am probably atypical, and try to hold on and linger as close to orgasm as possible for as long as possible. After optimising enjoyment like this for quite some time, usually with some level of fluids being expelled, one then reaches a phase where one can relax (I nearly said withdraw) without having the final "full" orgasm. I find this avoidance of "le petit mort" leaves me less drained and able to be vigorous again after a period of relaxation, and feel generally more vital outside the bedroom. It's a win win situation!

(naturally I have to do the full monty once a week or a fortnight.)

The point being that although quite a lot of juices can be expelled during this it is no doubt less than the regular way.

Does this mean I have to revert to being normal and fully clear the pipes or am I clearing enough?

Ps: I really don't expect anyone could give me an answer ha-ha!

Edited June 16, 2013 by cheeryble

[JDGRUEN]

re saw plametto there have been conflicting findings with some studies suggesting efficacy and the more recently published not. I don't think there is any harm in taking it as far as anyone knows, and taking it need not preclude other therapy.

OP needs as a priority to see a good urologist, have manual digital exam and then get the doctor's advice as to whether or not, based on manual findings and the PSA level, immediate biopsy is indicated. If it is not, he will be advised to start medication, with finasteride usually being the first drug of choice. From the described severity of symptoms, I'd suggest complying, but if you want to also take saw palmetto -- or try it alone first -- go ahead.

There are risks to delaying treatment. Even with BPH, serious urinary obstruction can occur leading to infections etc. And of course, with an elevated PSA and not yet even having had a digital exam, there is some risk that you may actually have cancer. You need to exclude that ASAP. The manual exam is a MUST, and should be done by a well qualified and very experienced urologist, I would suggest either Dr. Viroj at Bumrungrad or Dr. Thanoo at Samitivej. While any doctor can palpate an enlarged prostate, doctors specializing in prostate cancer with many years experience are best able to determine whether the enlargement is suggestive of malignancy or not.

If what is deterring you is fear of the biopsy procedure, it is not necessarily going to be required. IF a very experienced, competent urologist , after digital examination, assesses the likelihood of malignancy as low, you can discuss with them deferring biopsy in favor of periodic repeat exams and repeat PSAs while treating for BPH. Of course if they find that their are irregular masses that they assess as suspicious then a biopsy is a must, but odds favor BPH. So please go ahead and have this seen to, I think you have reached the limits of what you can get through online research at this stage.

You are much better off attending a planned appointment with a carefully selected specialist than having to go to an ER with acute urinary obstruction (painful as hell) or a severe infection or even sepsis, all of which can occur in the absence of treatment.

The big difference in measuring the efficacy of Saw Palmetto is that the only form that works is the EXTRACT - Concentrate ... ground up berries do little good... I am living proof that to reduce a swollen prostate - take a hyper dose of the Saw Palmetto Extract - concentrate of Saw Palmetto twice a day ... It has worked for me without fail for at least 12 years... If I stop taking it -- the swollen prostate comes back.... it is that simple

[cheeryble]

The big difference in measuring the efficacy of Saw Palmetto is that the only form that works is the EXTRACT - Concentrate ... ground up berries do little good... I am living proof that to reduce a swollen prostate - take a hyper dose of the Saw Palmetto Extract - concentrate of Saw Palmetto twice a day ... It has worked for me without fail for at least 12 years... If I stop taking it -- the swollen prostate comes back.... it is that simple

I was at a meditation centre in the Spanish mountains 15 or 20 years ago setting up to become an ordained Western Buddhist.

We were in a beautiful high valley pervaded by the smell of rosemary bush.

The point being that SOMETHING we ate drank or breathed made everyone there wake up in the middle of the night and pee like a horse under the intense starlight (not all at the same time!).

Everyone remaked on it.

Something was happening, just don't know what.

[cheeryble]

Well I learned something which surprised me today.

I went for a consultation.

Happily the digital exam came out unremarkable, though he was concerned at the rise in PSA saying we prefer not to see more rise than 0.7 in a year (me up from 4.23 to 5.47 = 1.24), though he did also say sometimes we see much higher accelerations (like some of our posters) and no cancer on biopsy. Also seemed pleased I have mild urination symptoms confined really to a "double-pee" in the morning and after that in the day and night not particularly noticeable.. So he suggested I check PSA again in three months to determine if it's an anomalous reading or not, and take it from there. I'm guessing from what he said that if I get another high reading he'll suggest a biopsy, but hey we'll wait and see.

What surprised me?

I asked how effective the digital exam was on finding any cancer.

He replied that if you can feel it on digital exam cancer has already spread outside the prostate.

Edited June 17, 2013 by cheeryble

[jrtmedic]

cheeryble

Something may have been lost in translation/understanding. On digital examination a smooth prostate = not much concern - if however the prostate feels "lumpy" it may indicate a need for futher investigation. A lumpy feeling prostate is not necessarily an indication of "cancer" nor does it indicate "spread" of "cancer" outside the gland.

The "gold" standard of investigating "suspicious" prostatic enlargement now seems to be moving toward MRI scanning and ultrasound guided biopsy.

[cheeryble]

Thanx JRT

Yes I was surprised when he said that, I would have assumed something like what you said.

I'm not overly concerned about my own case.....just dealing with it and learning.....but I would like to have accurate information as a good basis for future decisions.

[jrtmedic]

Be assured by the fact that your surgeon appears to be comfortable with a serial "wait and see" approach.

Be aware also that "blind" prostatic biopsy can produce false +v's and -v's.

You should also be aware that I claim no particular expertise in this speciality.

Edited June 17, 2013 by jrtmedic

[Tolley]

Be assured by the fact that your surgeon appears to be comfortable with a serial "wait and see" approach.

Be aware also that "blind" prostatic biopsy can produce false +v's and -v's.

You should also be aware that I claim no particular expertise in this speciality.

Well I learned something which surprised me today. I went for a consultation. Happily the digital exam came out unremarkable, though he was concerned at the rise in PSA saying we prefer not to see more rise than 0.7 in a year (me up from 4.23 to 5.47 = 1.24), though he did also say sometimes we see much higher accelerations (like some of our posters) and no cancer on biopsy. Also seemed pleased I have mild urination symptoms confined really to a "double-pee" in the morning and after that in the day and night not particularly noticeable.. So he suggested I check PSA again in three months to determine if it's an anomalous reading or not, and take it from there. I'm guessing from what he said that if I get another high reading he'll suggest a biopsy, but hey we'll wait and see. What surprised me? I asked how effective the digital exam was on finding any cancer. He replied that if you can feel it on digital exam cancer has already spread outside the prostate.

If what you reported he said was true I would be changing doctors quick smart. Hard to believe he would have said that thou.

[cheeryble]

If what you reported he said was true I would be changing doctors quick smart. Hard to believe he would have said that thou.

Well yes I've wondered how that could have been a translation thing I don't think it was.

I have also learned from just browsing a bit for instance I read that cancers normally begin at the back of the prostate so digital is more likely to pick them up.

I saw a marvellous animation showing BPH happening and was amazed how big it showed the prostate becoming it seemed to be approaching the size of the bladder

Anyway thanks for all input here I certainly have a better big picture.

[Tolley]

Read all about Pomegranate juice here

http://www.ftc.gov/os/adjpro/d9344/120521pomdecision.pdf

and here

http://center4research.org/i-saw-it-on-the-internet/pomegranate-prostate/

and here

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidvinjamuri/2012/05/23/judge-finds-pom-wonderful-advertising-deceptive-but-thats-just-the-tip-of-the-iceberg/

We can all quote sources read more about Pomegranate juice here:

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/prostatesupplements/healthprofessional/page5 or here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23066443 Please note here the reference to many other research papers on pomegranate juice!

The good news is that unlike many medications there are no adverse side effects from drinking pomegranate juice and there may be benefits to those with prostate issues and it may if it works for you prevent you having to undergo costly dangerous surgery.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Tolley

[oldsailor35]

Back in the 50's my great grand mother died aged 108 (true). She used to say that she had taken a dessert spoon full of honey every day and tomato juice when it was available. And she never had any prostate problems at all.

[oldsailor35]

Read all about Pomegranate juice here

http://www.ftc.gov/os/adjpro/d9344/120521pomdecision.pdf

and here

http://center4research.org/i-saw-it-on-the-internet/pomegranate-prostate/

and here

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidvinjamuri/2012/05/23/judge-finds-pom-wonderful-advertising-deceptive-but-thats-just-the-tip-of-the-iceberg/

I was told by a doctor that drinking tomato juice is very good for avoiding prostate problems. Anybody know enough to confirm this ?