Define Poverty - in a Thailand context ...

[David48]

^^ I'm a little confused ... are we reading the same topic?

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[Morakot]

No money in the bank, no rice in the pantry.

That can be temporarily, unless there is a lack of vision, skills and resources for being able to change such a situation.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Morakot

[rene123]

Poverty changes depending on the country in question. And, you can't compare countries. It can also change within the same country. There are indigenous people living in unique locations in this world that by any modern day standards are the depths of poverty, But these people have been living like this for centuries.

[simple1]

Poverty? I work an menial job back in Oz and earn more than most respectable Thais could only imagine.

But I feel the most rich and satisfied when I spend time with relatives up north.

P.s. The Thai Gov do take care of their people. Everything from milk for the young ones to an bypass for grandpa.

All with no intrusive taxation.

Right & Grandpa receives a monthly payment from the Thai government of the grand sum of 600 baht a month. If it were not for the Thai cultural traditon of the family taking care of the elderly Grandpa would have died long ago. Or if they don't have access to a Wat or Mosque for support. I live in East Pattaya & their are some elderly Thais who for various reasons live on their own and sometimes care for children abandoned by their son or daughter. If it were not for the locals keeping an eye out for them and providing food, they would be long gone; that is poverty.

Before someone posts a smartalec reply, my wife & I do give some money when they are really up against the wall. Otherwise they would be subject to black money loans, if they can get them, of 2% per day interest payment with no hope of getting out of debt; that is poverty

Edited June 13, 2013 by simple1

[Cluey]

People from later-developing countries like Thailand don't conceive of their government taking over the society's responsibility to care for those in need. When they find out how things work in the earlier-developed nanny-state countries you can see their eyes light up, and even if they don't say so they ask themselves "why would anyone bother working there?"

It is entirely right and proper in Thailand that families and the temples take care of those truly in need, and some people are left to die from the conditions of poverty. The vast majority of Thais are pretty desperately poor, if a social-support system like that back home were put in place the instant result would be the growing economy coming to a grinding halt and soon absolutely everyone would be poor with no hope for the future.

Later on one day in the future when the country can afford to they'll probably make many of the same mistakes that ours are currently figuring out how to get out of, totally unrealistic to think any government can provide a level of comfort and security that modern people now expect as the "basic minimum" to large segments of the population that are unable or unwilling to provide for themselves.

To me the ideal solution would be to release man-eating predators into our communities and bring back the evolutionary mechanisms behind survival of the fittest. Human life just isn't all that precious guys. . .

[theblether]

Can we test the man eating predator on you first then Cluey? That way we'll get an indication of how precious you really think human life is.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

For Thais

Having to date/marry a much older foreigner.

For foreigners

Not having a VISA or having to make 2 week VISA runs.

[Cluey]

Can we test the man eating predator on you first then Cluey? That way we'll get an indication of how precious you really think human life is.

-

Obviously each of us thinks our own life and those of our family and friends are valuable.

But increase the scale of the picture enough and the human population as a whole is just another parasite infecting nearly every surface of Gaia's skin.

Trying to "solve" the problem or to "prevent" poverty is all fine and good for politician's lip service but if it were actually implemented effectively worldwide the results would be completely and immediately disastrous.

The starting point has to be greatly reducing population levels - not just growth rates but absolute numbers - and I can't imagine a way to do that compatible with our current ethics or political systems, can you?

So we'll just muddle on and talk as if we care, or those of us that really do simply do what we can for those with whom we come into contact in our daily lives, best we can do.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Cluey

[theblether]

Au contraire, wealth has proven to be the best contraceptive known to man. Contrary to opinion the World population is slated to fall dramatically later this century as people get access to some of the advantages of modern medicine, and the agrarian psychology drifts away.

It's poverty that causes population growth, not wealth.

[David48]

For Thais

Having to date/marry a much older foreigner.

For foreigners

Not having a VISA or having to make 2 week VISA runs.

AOA ... just how do you define your post as poverty in Thailand ?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean ...

.

[theblether]

For Thais

Having to date/marry a much older foreigner.

For foreigners

Not having a VISA or having to make 2 week VISA runs.

AOA ... just how do you define your post as poverty in Thailand ?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean ...

.

You would think that young ladies marrying older men was a new thing.

You can also tell that he's not very switched on to Thai culture, the concept of Mia Noi's and Mia Lek was well established well before any farang made any impact on this country.

What was that all about then AOA? Was it all about young women accepting the support of older men to the financial benefit of themselves and their families? You know it was, and you know it still is.

What did that have to do with farangs? Nothing.

Carry on.

[Cluey]

Au contraire, wealth has proven to be the best contraceptive known to man. Contrary to opinion the World population is slated to fall dramatically later this century as people get access to some of the advantages of modern medicine, and the agrarian psychology drifts away.

It's poverty that causes population growth, not wealth.

-

But the earth can't support even half the current population living at developed-country standards, and you're saying the latter consumption level has to arrive before the population starts to decline.

And I haven't seen a single government yet willing to encourage a population decline, the developed ones where that trend has already developed now pay often generous subsidies to try to get their native population to keep breeding!

Our current economic systems are predicated on continuous growth on into the future, we'll have to come up with a different model there first too.

Even assuming some free and safe unlimited source of energy arrives, just look at food consumption patterns, eating greater quantities of meat has so far been inevitable with rising living standards and the quantity of arable land just doesn't exist, in fact keeps decreasing.

I'm just saying that anyone who things that "poverty" is a "problem" that can be "solved" is probably only thinking within one nation's borders, and as we now know that isn't too useful a view anymore.

[theblether]

China encouraged a population decline, billions of dollars have been spent elsewhere developing and encouraging contraception.

The increase in World prosperity will remove the desire of women in particular to endure multiple births. Thailand itself has seen a crash in the birthrate to below the population sustainability level already.

Just sayin'

[AnotherOneAmerican]

You would think that young ladies marrying older men was a new thing.

You can also tell that he's not very switched on to Thai culture, the concept of Mia Noi's and Mia Lek was well established well before any farang made any impact on this country.

You mix things up.

Old Thai man with young Thai woman = tradition for Thai lady

Old white foreign man with young Thai lady = disgrace for Thai lady

Edited June 13, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[theblether]

You would think that young ladies marrying older men was a new thing.

You can also tell that he's not very switched on to Thai culture, the concept of Mia Noi's and Mia Lek was well established well before any farang made any impact on this country.

You mix things up.

Old Thai man with young Thai woman = tradition for Thai lady

Old white man with young Thai lady = disgrace for Thai lady

Well I didn't mix things up......I did point out that young women in this society have always been exposed to a culture where being with an older man was "normal".

You'll need to expand upon this disgrace aspect of things.

[PaullyW]

I'm happy to wrap this one up --

pov·er·ty

/ˈpävərtē/

Noun

1. The state of being extremely poor.
2. The state of being inferior in quality or insufficient in amount.

Synonyms

destitution - want - penury - indigence - need - poorness

As you can see, a synonym is 'want' or 'to want'. In this sense, someone is poor who lacks or wants for much more than he/she has. In that sense most Thais might be thought of as rather poor, as is the case with most of humanity.

[Cluey]

Old white foreign man with young Thai lady = disgrace for Thai lady

-

If he's wealthy enough, no disgrace for her, depending on her background perhaps only for him.

But then does he care?

[David48]

<snip>

As you can see, a synonym is 'want' or 'to want'. In this sense, someone is poor who lacks or wants for much more than he/she has. In that sense most Thais might be thought of as rather poor, as is the case with most of humanity.

^^ I'm sorry PaullyW .. but I have to suggest that is a definition of poverty as from a Western viewpoint will the topic at hand is from a Thailand perspective or context.

[Naam]

For Thais

Having to date/marry a much older foreigner.

For foreigners

Not having a VISA or having to make 2 week VISA runs.

AOA ... just how do you define your post as poverty in Thailand ?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean ...

.

the Brit with the misleading handle " *.american " got it right as far as foreigners

are concerned.

[PaullyW]

<snip>

As you can see, a synonym is 'want' or 'to want'. In this sense, someone is poor who lacks or wants for much more than he/she has. In that sense most Thais might be thought of as rather poor, as is the case with most of humanity.

^^ I'm sorry PaullyW .. but I have to suggest that is a definition of poverty as from a Western viewpoint will the topic at hand is from a Thailand perspective or context.

So, then perhaps we should use a different word and the OP should need to describe the question outside the context of the word 'poverty' which has a very clear meaning.

[David48]

<snip>

As you can see, a synonym is 'want' or 'to want'. In this sense, someone is poor who lacks or wants for much more than he/she has. In that sense most Thais might be thought of as rather poor, as is the case with most of humanity.

^^ I'm sorry PaullyW .. but I have to suggest that is a definition of poverty as from a Western viewpoint will the topic at hand is from a Thailand perspective or context.

So, then perhaps we should use a different word and the OP should need to describe the question outside the context of the word 'poverty' which has a very clear meaning.

I thinks my concept and, by default, the counter argument is fairly well out there, but thanks for your input ...

We need andrew on the team.

Anyone who knows him personally, please feel free to tap him on the shoulder.

I would appreciate his unique viewpoint ...

.

[krisb]

You would think that young ladies marrying older men was a new thing.

You can also tell that he's not very switched on to Thai culture, the concept of Mia Noi's and Mia Lek was well established well before any farang made any impact on this country.

You mix things up.

Old Thai man with young Thai woman = tradition for Thai lady

Old white foreign man with young Thai lady = disgrace for Thai lady

Thats a load of BS. What do you care who marries who?

Nothing to do with defining poverty.

Edited June 13, 2013 by krisb

[Morakot]

You would think that young ladies marrying older men was a new thing.

You can also tell that he's not very switched on to Thai culture, the concept of Mia Noi's and Mia Lek was well established well before any farang made any impact on this country.

You mix things up.

Old Thai man with young Thai woman = tradition for Thai lady

Old white foreign man with young Thai lady = disgrace for Thai lady

This a generalisation based on a few stereotypes. Life is little more complex than that, I would say.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Morakot

[Andre0720]

Going to sleep hungry.

Or then not being able to get something that one really really wants, something that others around have, something that is visible, attainable, reasonable, and which results in some level of unhappiness.

Knowledge and awareness in this world has created lots of feeling of poverty, just knowing that some people are more equal.

And many people have only a bowl of rice, and a big smile.

[khunPer]

Some may say you are poor, when you do not have food to eat and shelter for weather (expression I heard from a government member in Asia).

In Western terms, you are poor, when you half or less of the median income, i.e. if for example 10,000 baht a month is the median income in Thailand, then after Western standard, your are poor when you have 5,000 baht or less per month.

Some says, that poverty in Thailand is relative, as people do have food and shelter, but may not have the latest model in Karaoke-VCD-player. Seems like mobile phones cannot count, as almost everyone has those.

In a country with almost none official unemployed; migrant workers in numbers equivalent to10% or more of the workable population; and an official minimum salary, it may be hard to see poverty other than relative, as you can find work if you want.

[krisb]

To me Andre said it well in 1 short sentence ..

Going to sleep hungry.

Life can be cruel to some.

[1FinickyOne]

When I talk about poverty to friends in the Western World - I differentiate it by saying that there are few desperately poor here. The distinction being that shelter of some sort is easily managed and food will be provided at any temple - the monks will share. And it seems to me that many middle or lower middle class people in the West, living paycheck to paycheck, have a deep rooted fear of becoming homeless.

One definition of poverty says - it is measured relative to what your neighbor has -

I have always felt that most poor Thais have a better life and are happier than most middle or lower middle class Westerners..

[jvs]

Yes going to sleep hungry sums up the meaning of poverty as most of us know it,of course there are a lot more definitions.

Is dying from being overweight(obesity) another form of poverty?

[belg]

if you want to help the poor, start at home... meaning : we give when we can some extra's to our maid or her child...

[Dr Robert]

Once there were two, piece-of-paper friends-they lived in a two dimensional world with only length and breadth to define their paper environment. They lived a happy uneventful life, until one day an eagle swooped down from the sky and grasped one of the friends thinking it was food. Ten metres up realising it wasnt food but a two dimensional piece of paper, the eagle let go. The two dimensional friend fluttered back to earth, suddenly aware that another world beyond his concept of two dimesnions existed and that all that he thought he knew was not true. However he had no words that could accurately describe his experience. His two dimensional friend, just wasnt convinced of his story and couldnt believe him, so the newly enlightened piece of paper lapsed back in two dimensionality where he tried to live happily ever after, despite the nagging cognitive dissonance which haunted his remaining days.

This fable, adapted from the incomparable Carl Sagan describes poverty in Thailand.

Knowledge is power, the impoverished are powerless. Their happiness is relative. We need, all of us, to be eagles.