Ecuador 'analysing' Snowden asylum request: FM

[SinglePot]

I'm definitely interested to see how the right wingers here might try to spin this.

The "right wingers here" couldn't care less what happens to Snowden. He will evetually be arrested and tried for treason and go to jail.

The "right wingers here" are much more concerned about the current governments continued and increasing violation of the constitutional rights of Americans than Snowden's unusual travel predicament.

However the NSA subject is off topic and not allowable under forum rules.

Ta.

Obama has to deal with bigger issues than just those contained within the borders of the US.

Big world out there.

[Scott]

During the time when I worked in the middle east, there were a large number of refugees that were taken out a particularly troubled country (actually around 10,000). The European Countries as well as most Middle East countries refused to let any of the planes in their air space.

The planes were forced to fly to a very long way. There was no complaints made by anyone. Permission to overfly was asked for and not granted. Case closed.

[simple1]

During the time when I worked in the middle east, there were a large number of refugees that were taken out a particularly troubled country (actually around 10,000). The European Countries as well as most Middle East countries refused to let any of the planes in their air space.

The planes were forced to fly to a very long way. There was no complaints made by anyone. Permission to overfly was asked for and not granted. Case closed.

I guess you are referring to the airlift of the Ethiopian Jews, who by the way are now suffering active discrimination in Israel.

Denial of landing rights or access to sovereign airspace to a flight transporting the president of a country, would I imagine, be a breach of international protocol for a Head of State who has not broken any international laws, nor as far as I know, has the suspected passenger had an arrest warrant issued for his apprehension to be served by Interpol member countries.

Edited July 3, 2013 by simple1

[sustento]

Bolivian president Morales in Moscow yesterday expressed his willingness to give asylum to Snowden. In comments made to Russia Today (RT) television, Morales had criticized America's "espionage network," which he claimed was being used particularly against developing countries.

In the interview, Morales asserted that if Snowden applied for asylum in Bolivia, the request would be considered favorably.

So we have the Bolivian foreign minister denying Snowden is on the plane while Pres Morales said in Moscow he would favorably consider Snowden's application for asylum. Meanwhile, the plane landed in Austria, where Snowden has also applied, and a spokesperson for the Austrian government says Snowden would not be expelled from Austria because there is no Interpol warrant to apprehend him.

A lot of double talk here, triple talk even.

From the BC link further up this page:

"On Tuesday, National Intelligence Director James Clapper apologised for telling Congress in March that the NSA did not have a policy of gathering data on millions of Americans. He said in a letter to Dianne Feinstein, head of the Senate intelligence committee, that his answer had been "clearly erroneous".

Now THAT'S double talk.

[SinglePot]

Yep. This Snowden thing has definitely rattled my cage.

I got heaved out of China 2 months ago. I lived and worked in Beijing for a year.

Chinese didn't like me telling the truth.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Scott
Deleted post edited out

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted. Stay on the topic.

[Scott]

During the time when I worked in the middle east, there were a large number of refugees that were taken out a particularly troubled country (actually around 10,000). The European Countries as well as most Middle East countries refused to let any of the planes in their air space.

The planes were forced to fly to a very long way. There was no complaints made by anyone. Permission to overfly was asked for and not granted. Case closed.

I guess you are referring to the airlift of the Ethiopian Jews, who by the way are now suffering active discrimination in Israel.

Denial of landing rights or access to sovereign airspace to a flight transporting the president of a country, would I imagine, be a breach of international protocol for a Head of State who has not broken any international laws, nor as far as I know, has the suspected passenger had an arrest warrant issued for his apprehension to be served by Interpol member countries.

No, it had nothing to do with Ethiopia or Israel.

The point is all of the EU countries said no fly over. So there was no fly over. There was no protest or discussion.

My point is that countries can restrict their airspace. I don't know the rules or laws, but I know they can and do.

[FDog]

But do they do it against a head of state? Quite unbelievable actually.

If the US gets Snowden back I do hope all countries ban the plane from their air space. Would only be reasonable.

[Scott]

I don't know the conditions under which planes are not granted permission to overfly. It is a little bit off-topic

We do have a number of members who are pilots and/or work for airlines, perhaps if one comes along they can answer the question.

It is also a possibility that the countries denied permission to overfly in order to not get involved in being requested to stop the plane.

I think in the situation that I cited, it was at least partially a matter of some countries not wanting any involvement in what was going on.

[JDGRUEN]

It seems the President of Bolivia has extended an invitation to Snowden. But - much to the embarrassment of the U.S. Government Snowden was not on the diverted flight ... Also - it seems Russia wants to have Snowden go away... but is being a bit nice about it ...

Therefore, I go back to my ideas of 'ruse and feint' - old military maneuvers. In this regard - it would seem quite plausible that Putin would 'okay' a military transport to secretly ferry Snowden to Bolivia via Cuba... The U.S. is not going to force down or force a diversion of Russian Military Aircraft... Net result ... Snowden is gone - transported clandestinely - Bolivia takes in Snowden... Russia doesn't have to deal with it anymore and the U.S. officials fume ... This could be so easily done now that the Bolivian President has extended his invitation to Snowden.

The U.S. blatantly tipped their hand on diverting civilian flights ... so use deception - feint and ruse... The diverted flight was part of that plan - perhaps?

No one would know this was being done - except that Snowden would not be seen in the Moscow airport facilities. Take Snowden to a car at night ... go to a dark corner of the airport - get on the transport ... fly to Cuba - refuel ... fly to Bolivia. Snowden never exits the plane until arrival in Bolivia at a military airport - to be whisk away again to some enclave.

Yes - this is all speculation - but based on what could easily be done by military minded people... why confront the issue head on?

[Credo]

But it wasn't the US that diverted the plane.

[midas]

It seems the President of Bolivia has extended an invitation to Snowden. But - much to the embarrassment of the U.S. Government Snowden was not on the diverted flight ... Also - it seems Russia wants to have Snowden go away... but is being a bit nice about it ...

Therefore, I go back to my ideas of 'ruse and feint' - old military maneuvers. In this regard - it would seem quite plausible that Putin would 'okay' a military transport to secretly ferry Snowden to Bolivia via Cuba... The U.S. is not going to force down or force a diversion of Russian Military Aircraft... Net result ... Snowden is gone - transported clandestinely - Bolivia takes in Snowden... Russia doesn't have to deal with it anymore and the U.S. officials fume ... This could be so easily done now that the Bolivian President has extended his invitation to Snowden.

The U.S. blatantly tipped their hand on diverting civilian flights ... so use deception - feint and ruse... The diverted flight was part of that plan - perhaps?

No one would know this was being done - except that Snowden would not be seen in the Moscow airport facilities. Take Snowden to a car at night ... go to a dark corner of the airport - get on the transport ... fly to Cuba - refuel ... fly to Bolivia. Snowden never exits the plane until arrival in Bolivia at a military airport - to be whisk away again to some enclave.

Yes - this is all speculation - but based on what could easily be done by military minded people... why confront the issue head on?

I hope you're right, because it's pretty clear now that he took any commercial flight they will stop at nothing to prevent the plane from passing the airspace of certain countries

[Credo]

Most commercial flights are not going to allow someone without a valid passport and visa onto a plane. They are also not going to allow anyone that is a security risk, whether that is a direct or indirect risk.

[Publicus]

Bolivian president Morales in Moscow yesterday expressed his willingness to give asylum to Snowden. In comments made to Russia Today (RT) television, Morales had criticized America's "espionage network," which he claimed was being used particularly against developing countries.

In the interview, Morales asserted that if Snowden applied for asylum in Bolivia, the request would be considered favorably.

So we have the Bolivian foreign minister denying Snowden is on the plane while Pres Morales said in Moscow he would favorably consider Snowden's application for asylum. Meanwhile, the plane landed in Austria, where Snowden has also applied, and a spokesperson for the Austrian government says Snowden would not be expelled from Austria because there is no Interpol warrant to apprehend him.

A lot of double talk here, triple talk even.

From the BC link further up this page:

"On Tuesday, National Intelligence Director James Clapper apologised for telling Congress in March that the NSA did not have a policy of gathering data on millions of Americans. He said in a letter to Dianne Feinstein, head of the Senate intelligence committee, that his answer had been "clearly erroneous".

Now THAT'S double talk.

Based on having seen the newsclip of Clapper getting the question and his response, Clapper should be permanently relieved of his duties and responsibilities, for good.

Clapper either didn't have the answer to the senator's question due to lack of complete knowledge, or he fudged his answer badly enough to appear less than genuine and forthcoming to a Senate committee of inquiry.

Just this week Clapper wrote a letter to say he had been unclear, which may have been the case, so immediately after the hearing concluded Clapper sent some of his senior staff to explain (some blah blah blah) to senior committee staff. And now in the letter clapper points out he misunderstood the question and the applicable laws, which is an admission of miscomprehension of his job, or that the response he gave was disingenuous.

My conclusion is that Clapper's response was disingenuous and, moreover, he knew when he gave the response that he was being disingenuous.

In short, it doesn't matter which Clapper was - either or both incompetence or being disingenuous is a basis of dismissal from the position. Accordingly, Clapper should have the good sense to resign or he needs to be dismissed.

[Jingthing]

Who ya gonna call?

Asylum Busters!

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_chicago/2013/07/edward_snowden_and_asylum_he_is_a_terrible_candidate.html

Poor Edward Snowden! He’s willing to live nearly anywhere, but no country is willing to accept him. Not Ecuador. Not China, Russia, Norway, or Spain. Why not? Because he is a terrible candidate for asylum.

...

Snowden has few options left. Any country with an extradition treaty with the United States would probably extradite him—so his efforts to get into Germany or France are pretty pointless. Perhaps, if he reached Cuba or Bolivia, he could stay in one of those countries, in the process giving up the civil liberties that he holds so dear.

[FDog]

One thing about the plane diverting confuses me.

Surely, if France wanted to gain some brownie points and thought Snowden was on board. All they had to do was let him land then arrest him and send him to the US. But no, they bend over and take it from the US warnings and just tell the pilot to bugger off somewhere else.

Would be interesting to know where they got the information from that Snowden was on board. Surely not more incompetence from the US govt.

[Publicus]

Based on Pres Morales own statements that he would cheerfully aid and abet a fugitive from justice, made before and while he was in Moscow. He'd been in Moscow as recently as yesterday

So an international warrant has in fact finally been issued on Snowden?

I must have missed that.

I will put you down as acceptable then

It's common knowledge that Snowden has had charges filed against him by the U.S. Government in U.S. District Court for violations of the Espionage Act, and that Snowden is a fugitive from justice in the United States..

The prez of Bolivia has been talking about giving Snowden asylum, so he's well aware. That's knowledge enough.

Also, the right wingers are presuming the United States forced the sovereign states involved to accept its supposed will to deny Morales' plane access to the sovereign airspace of each of the countries. Such claims need some solid item of evidence. Moreover, such claims need a body of evidence that would result in conclusive proof. Speculation and assigning sinister motives out of the blue to the U.S. government doesn't cut it. Maybe there's something to come out, maybe not.

This wild speculation has to stop. Something concrete is needed, some specific .Presently, all that exists is extremist speculation.

[lannarebirth]

I'm definitely interested to see how the right wingers here might try to spin this.

The "right wingers here" couldn't care less what happens to Snowden. He will evetually be arrested and tried for treason and go to jail.

The "right wingers here" are much more concerned about the current governments continued and increasing violation of the constitutional rights of Americans than Snowden's unusual travel predicament.

However the NSA subject is off topic and not allowable under forum rules.

Ta.

I'm not a right winger but I agree with your sentiments. It's a pretty unsatisfying debate and reminds me of that Eleanor Roosevelt quote:

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

[Publicus]

One thing about the plane diverting confuses me.

Surely, if France wanted to gain some brownie points and thought Snowden was on board. All they had to do was let him land then arrest him and send him to the US. But no, they bend over and take it from the US warnings and just tell the pilot to bugger off somewhere else.

Would be interesting to know where they got the information from that Snowden was on board. Surely not more incompetence from the US govt.

France didn't want the plane in its sovereign air space. So you'd have to take that up with the president of France. I'd say France didn't want the big trouble of having the plane in its air space and take additional responsibility to require the plane to land in France, if that's what you mean. The same would be highly likely true of the other governments that denied access to their sovereign air space and soil.

The one thing that's clear is that the president of Bolivia is a lot of hot air concerning Snowden and a big zero when it comes to action. The same is true of the other four or so South American leftist presidents. Long and winded on rhetoric, short on nads.

[lannarebirth]

Bolivian president Morales in Moscow yesterday expressed his willingness to give asylum to Snowden. In comments made to Russia Today (RT) television, Morales had criticized America's "espionage network," which he claimed was being used particularly against developing countries.

In the interview, Morales asserted that if Snowden applied for asylum in Bolivia, the request would be considered favorably.

So we have the Bolivian foreign minister denying Snowden is on the plane while Pres Morales said in Moscow he would favorably consider Snowden's application for asylum. Meanwhile, the plane landed in Austria, where Snowden has also applied, and a spokesperson for the Austrian government says Snowden would not be expelled from Austria because there is no Interpol warrant to apprehend him.

A lot of double talk here, triple talk even.

From the BC link further up this page:

"On Tuesday, National Intelligence Director James Clapper apologised for telling Congress in March that the NSA did not have a policy of gathering data on millions of Americans. He said in a letter to Dianne Feinstein, head of the Senate intelligence committee, that his answer had been "clearly erroneous".

Now THAT'S double talk.

Based on having seen the newsclip of Clapper getting the question and his response, Clapper should be permanently relieved of his duties and responsibilities, for good.

Clapper either didn't have the answer to the senator's question due to lack of complete knowledge, or he fudged his answer badly enough to appear less than genuine and forthcoming to a Senate committee of inquiry.

Just this week Clapper wrote a letter to say he had been unclear, which may have been the case, so immediately after the hearing concluded Clapper sent some of his senior staff to explain (some blah blah blah) to senior committee staff. And now in the letter clapper points out he misunderstood the question and the applicable laws, which is an admission of miscomprehension of his job, or that the response he gave was disingenuous.

My conclusion is that Clapper's response was disingenuous and, moreover, he knew when he gave the response that he was being disingenuous.

In short, it doesn't matter which Clapper was - either or both incompetence or being disingenuous is a basis of dismissal from the position. Accordingly, Clapper should have the good sense to resign or he needs to be dismissed.

Washington has it's own pace. Things start slowly but when momentum builds things can get done as consensus builds. I'm old enough to remember those days. Maybe the seed of a movement to be bi-partisanly credulous of self serving and incompetent government burearucrats is forming here:

http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-udall-statement-on-the-disclosure-of-bulk-email-records-collection-program

You know, I don't get you left wing/right wing posters. I almost never get what i want from government no matter who is in office. What i want is accountability. You folks should at least be able agree on that much.

Edited July 3, 2013 by lannarebirth

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.

Continue to make personal remarks about other posters or attempt to derail the topic and you will receive a suspension.

[jamhar]

The Tale of the Re-Routed Bolivian President's Plane Is Falling Apart

It seems there's more (or in this case, "less") to the story than first reported.

Very STRANGE behavior indeed

The countries involved contradict the Bolivian Presidents claims of re-routing

tale-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart Link

Edited July 4, 2013 by jamhar

[mania]

So an international warrant has in fact finally been issued on Snowden?

I must have missed that.

I will put you down as acceptable then

It's common knowledge that Snowden has had charges filed against him by the U.S. Government in U.S. District Court for violations of the Espionage Act, and that Snowden is a fugitive from justice in the United States..

The prez of Bolivia has been talking about giving Snowden asylum, so he's well aware. That's knowledge enough.

Sorry slow to respond but thread is getting too confusing now with posts deletions etc.

But to be clear yes I did say "International" warrant as in Interpol type instrument.

It goes without saying he is wanted in the USA & a US warrant exists albeit sealed I believe?. Also it goes without saying that if he should land in a country with an extradition agreement with the USA they may oblige the US by holding & transferring Snowden into the USA's hands

But no such International warrant that I know of exists so I wondered why one has not been issued?

As to diverting or denying passage thru their airspace to President of Bolivia

Since when has granting asylum or in this case just talking about it been a crime? Is it just cause for suspicion that could have placed that country's president in possible harms way?

Edited July 4, 2013 by mania

[Credo]

So,it seems that those nasty Americans weren't after the poor, persecuted Bolivian president at all. Seems he is a bit paranoid.

[midas]

brilliant article here

The U.S. vs. Edward Snowden: Does the World Not Have the Courage or Decency to Protect Mr. Snowden?

Actions speak louder than words, and by his actions alone Edward Snowden has proved himself to be a real American Hero, a Patriot and somebody worthy of being called a Citizen of the World. The sheer amount of personal risk he took was by no means trivial, and the reason he took it for makes it even more significant.

The US government has provided as justification for its global spying operations the need to protect itself from “terrorists”. The fact of the matter is that if you do some digging, you’ll find that most of the so-called “terrorist organizations” in the world today were either created or supported militarily/financially at some point by the US government itself. Case in point is the current dictatorship in Egypt headed by an American puppet.

http://www.gekkosblog.com/

Edited July 4, 2013 by midas

[jamhar]

brilliant article here

The U.S. vs. Edward Snowden: Does the World Not Have the Courage or Decency to Protect Mr. Snowden?

Actions speak louder than words, and by his actions alone Edward Snowden has proved himself to be a real American Hero, a Patriot and somebody worthy of being called a Citizen of the World. The sheer amount of personal risk he took was by no means trivial, and the reason he took it for makes it even more significant.

The US government has provided as justification for its global spying operations the need to protect itself from “terrorists”. The fact of the matter is that if you do some digging, you’ll find that most of the so-called “terrorist organizations” in the world today were either created or supported militarily/financially at some point by the US government itself. Case in point is the current dictatorship in Egypt headed by an American puppet.

http://www.gekkosblog.com/

The Brotherhood an American puppet,

You cannot be serious.

I like this guy better

“They’re reporting classified shit,

Moreover, who the <deleted> are the anonymous sources telling them this?

Those people should be shot in the balls.” Snowden 2009

I think we should give him what he wants

[Publicus]

The Tale of the Re-Routed Bolivian President's Plane Is Falling Apart

It seems there's more (or in this case, "less") to the story than first reported.

Very STRANGE behavior indeed

The countries involved contradict the Bolivian Presidents claims of re-routing

tale-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart Link

Yes, in just the past 8 or so hours new information is coming out through several news organizations that contradict the Bolivian government's claims that access to air space over several European countries was denied. The aircraft of President Morales did in fact fly in the air space of Italy, France, Spain, Portugal.

It seems more a problem, recorded by air traffic controllers in the countries involved, that the official plane of Bolivian president Morales had faulty fuel gage readings. If the equipment on the official plane of the president of Bolivia is faulty, I don't know how in Bolivia the president would be allowed to board such a dangerous aircraft. It raises questions of the quality of the airplane's maintenance and safety that other governments would deal with effectively before allowing their presidents to use the plane for intercontinental flights, or any flights.

After Morales' junk aircraft left Vienna, it flew in the air space of Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, refueling in the Canary Islands (where the birds apparently fly better than the plane of the president of Bolivia).

What's the beef?!

The Contradicting Narratives In The Evo Morales Plane Diversion

http://www.inquisitr.com/829814/the-contradicting-narratives-in-the-evo-morales-plane-diversion/

The flight crew of Evo Morales’ plane requested permission to land in Vienna because of being unable to read the fuel indicator properly. “We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication, we need to land.” the pilot or co-pilot is heard saying.

Evo Morales’s controversial flight over Europe, minute by heavily disputed minute

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/evo-morales-controversial-flight-over-europe-minute-by-heavily-disputed-minute/

The Washington Post says that what we do know is that the plane took off from Moscow late on Tuesday, carrying Bolivian President Evo Morales, who had expressed his support for NSA leaker Edward Snowden. Then, as the plane flew over central Austria, it took a sudden and unexpected 180-degree turn, landing in nearby Vienna.

After some time, it left Vienna to resume its journey home to Bolivia. It flew over Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, stopping over in the Canary Islands, where it refueled around noon EST on Wednesday.

What we don’t know, and what has rapidly become a source of tremendous international controversy, is the answer to why flight FAB-001 took that u-turn. There [sic] a few competing narratives as to what happened and why.

I would add that maybe Morales had though he could conceal that he was making intercontinental flights in a faulty aircraft.

I never did think or believe that Prez Obama is also an air traffic controller, as many on the extreme right have tried to make him out to be.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Publicus

[mania]

Yes, in just the past 8 or so hours new information is coming out through several news organizations that contradict the Bolivian government's claims

After Morales' junk aircraft left Vienna,

I never did think or believe that Prez Obama is also an air traffic controller, as many on the extreme right have tried to make him out to be.

Three things above

1- Did anyone expect anything less than plausible deniability on this matter?

2- Yeah French made Dassault Falcon 900 ex long range corporate class jet total junk

3- You always pepper everything with left vs right rhetoric...why?

Is it unknown to you that millions upon millions have no love for either side?

[SinglePot]

Yes, in just the past 8 or so hours new information is coming out through several news organizations that contradict the Bolivian government's claims

After Morales' junk aircraft left Vienna,

I never did think or believe that Prez Obama is also an air traffic controller, as many on the extreme right have tried to make him out to be.

Three things above

1- Did anyone expect anything less than plausible deniability on this matter?

2- Yeah French made Dassault Falcon 900 ex long range corporate class jet total junk

3- You always pepper everything with left vs right rhetoric...why?

Is it unknown to you that millions upon millions have no love for either side?

Point taken.

Meanwhile the buck stops with a liberal democrat US president who has to sort out the mess.

[Exsexyman]

The Tale of the Re-Routed Bolivian President's Plane Is Falling Apart

It seems there's more (or in this case, "less") to the story than first reported.

Very STRANGE behavior indeed

The countries involved contradict the Bolivian Presidents claims of re-routing

tale-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart Link

Reports on the BBC say that France apologised to Bolivia last night for refusing to allow President Morales' into it's airspace.