Russia's anti-gay laws have teeth -- gay priders assaulted

[ToddWeston]

OTM quote - sorry stupid IPhone edit

But this topic is going into a direction that I don't want to follow, so I am out of here.

----

Please forgive me for asking - are you bowing out because the thread has become less about protest ?

Edited August 13, 2013 by ToddWeston

[Jingthing]

It seems a positive development that basically the same topic has moved to the world news forum. Much more diversity of eyes and potentially voices. This is a HUGE international news story, Sochi and dictator Putin's persecution of gays, and it's going to get much bigger as Sochi approaches, and after Sochi as well, because it doesn't seem likely Putin will drop this scapegoating any time soon.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[sustento]

And after Sochi has disappeared over the horizon and the publicity has moved elsewhere (which will be 10 minutes after the closing ceremony) those ordinary Russian gays who don't have apartments in Zurich or New York will be left on their own to face the consequences...

[Jingthing]

And after Sochi has disappeared over the horizon and the publicity has moved elsewhere (which will be 10 minutes after the closing ceremony) those ordinary Russian gays who don't have apartments in Zurich or New York will be left on their own to face the consequences...

I find this POV totally CHILLING.

This isn't only about what to do regarding Sochi but more importantly what to do about a continuing international reaction against the anti-gay Russian policies and Nazi thuggery in TOTALITY.

Consider learning from HISTORY.

Consider learning from Berlin 1936.

The world did NOTHING then and totally caved to Hitler at the Olympics.

After that, it could not have possibly been WORSE for the Jews of Germany.

Get the point? To repeat that historical mistake regarding the scapegoated gays of Russia is INEXCUSABLE morally.

NOTHING does not work.

But the argument that it might hurt to do SOMETHING is certainly a convenient rationalization to do NOTHING.

This is bigger than Sochi.

Much bigger.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking it's only about rainbow flags at Sochi, but there WILL be rainbow flags at Sochi, but that's just the tip of the iceberg:

We have a chance to do things differently in Sochi than we did in Berlin. Let’s start with skipping the part where we appease a dictator, and instead give a damn about what’s happening beyond the scrubbed streets of the Olympic Village. Let’s lose the naïve notion that the wins of a few remarkable LGBT athletes will make any difference to the mobs of Neo-Nazi vigilantes luring gay teens with online ads, then kidnapping and torturing them—a process they like to videotape and post online for their admirers to enjoy. Let’s focus on forms of protest that will have an impact in locations beyond Sochi—actions that will continue to impede the progress of Putin’s Final Solution even once the crowds and the cameras leave.

http://prospect.org/article/sticking-it-sochi-leading-russian-lgbt-activists-what-will-make-difference

Edited August 14, 2013 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

OTM quote - sorry stupid IPhone edit

But this topic is going into a direction that I don't want to follow, so I am out of here.

----

Please forgive me for asking - are you bowing out because the thread has become less about protest ?

No, because of too much hatred. People here disagree violently - rather than constructively. But then, maybe it's just my feeling.

I also don't know what this has to do with Pattaya, but that seems to have been just a little side-track.

[LeCharivari]

"CHILLING" indeed - unfortunately its realistic and honest.

This continued comparison of the situation for gays in Russia and Jews in Nazi Germany is one I find particularly sickening as there is no comparison on any level and it cheapens the suffering of the Jews under the Nazis to what should be an unacceptable level.

In Russia the law allows for those promoting "non-traditional sexual relations" (read "gay") to minors to be fined between $60 and $150 - an equivalent would be fining Jewish parents and teachers for teaching Judaism to children.

In Germany it started (Berlin 1936) with Jews having their citizenship and rights taken away and ended with them first being confined to ghettos then moved to concentration camps and ended with up to six million (two thirds of the European Jewish population) being systematically killed by the state.

There is no possible comparison with what is happening to gays in Russia now, nor is there the slightest indication that there ever will be any comparison.

I can understand how a self-confessed self-hating Jew like Stephen Fry could take this line, but it is a disappointing one and shows just how quickly "HISTORY" is forgotten.

[Jingthing]

People in 1936 had NO IDEA how bad it would get for the Jews. Yes, there is a DIRECT comparison. We are talking about the EARLIER STAGES. People also have NO IDEA how bad it is going to get for gays of Russia.

[Scott]

There are a number of threads that touch on the situation in Russia, but I just came across this article on Yahoo. It is about Wentworth Miller's suicide attempt, but he just recently turned down an invitation to Russia because the treatment of gays:

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/wentworth-miller-attempted-suicide-teen-203000682.html

[isanbirder]

Sorry to revive a topic which has rather been done to death, but today's Guardian reported another demonstration by gay activists in St Petersburg.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/12/gay-rights-protest-st-petersburg-arrests

What did these protesters hope to achieve?

1) some publicity; well, they got that.

2) to be arrested; they knew that would happen

And what else? They clearly publicised their demonstration in some way beforehand, or else the homophobic group would not have been there, duly costumed, to oppose them.

I just don't see what actions like this are expected to achieve. There is a time to lie low and a time to take action; it seems to me that this is a time to lie low for a while, intensify networking among Russian gays and with overseas gays, and wait for a while.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, blame the victims. That makes sense.

You know, maybe they don't want to wait 100 years "cooling down" for something magically to change.

They know the world's attention is on Russia now because of Sochi.

So I think they have their reasons. To understand them in detail, you'd need to talk to them.

[Dr Robert]

This is not so much a GAY issue(though it is obviously aimed squarely at them) but an issue of civil liberties and basic human rights.

All people are effected by such draconian unenlightened fascism such as Putin is promulgating-directly or indirectly, implicitly or explicitly.

We need to band together as free thinking souls to crush down this cancerous murderous hatred against our fellow human beings-the rights of people to make choices in liberty without fear nor favour is at stake for everyone...gays now, who next?

[onthemoon]

Sorry to revive a topic which has rather been done to death, but today's Guardian reported another demonstration by gay activists in St Petersburg.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/12/gay-rights-protest-st-petersburg-arrests

What did these protesters hope to achieve?

1) some publicity; well, they got that.

2) to be arrested; they knew that would happen

And what else? They clearly publicised their demonstration in some way beforehand, or else the homophobic group would not have been there, duly costumed, to oppose them.

I just don't see what actions like this are expected to achieve. There is a time to lie low and a time to take action; it seems to me that this is a time to lie low for a while, intensify networking among Russian gays and with overseas gays, and wait for a while.

I can imagine that publicity was their main point, the arrests helping to get it into international press.

Why did they do it? Because the press forgets so quickly. The problems in Russia are not solved, and they don't want this to be forgotten. Makes sense to me.

Edited October 13, 2013 by onthemoon

[LeCharivari]

Sorry to revive a topic which has rather been done to death, but today's Guardian reported another demonstration by gay activists in St Petersburg.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/12/gay-rights-protest-st-petersburg-arrests

What did these protesters hope to achieve?

1) some publicity; well, they got that.

2) to be arrested; they knew that would happen

And what else? They clearly publicised their demonstration in some way beforehand, or else the homophobic group would not have been there, duly costumed, to oppose them.

I just don't see what actions like this are expected to achieve. There is a time to lie low and a time to take action; it seems to me that this is a time to lie low for a while, intensify networking among Russian gays and with overseas gays, and wait for a while.

All is not quite as it seems ...

This particular rally had been officially sanctioned by St Petersburg despite the recent law and the police were protecting the few gay demonstrators from attacks by the anti-gay counter demonstrators.

As there were only "around 15 gay rights activists" there in total and "a police representative said that 67 people had been detained. They included both gay rights activists and their opponents" it is very clear that the majority arrested were from the opposition.

Those protesting and rallying illegally are still arrested - gay protesters at and on Paratroopers Day (2 August) in St Petersburg, for example, were arrested and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

None of the protesters, incidentally, have been arrested under the new law or for kissing in public, waving rainbow flags, etc., despite the hype in the West.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57607248/gay-rights-rally-in-russia-ends-in-violence/

.

Edited October 13, 2013 by LeCharivari

[isanbirder]

Interesting post, LeC. I too had noticed how many more anti-gay protesters were arrested, but I didn't know the police were protecting the gays.

Throughout this discussion, I've been concerned about the effect of the demonstrations in relation to the Sochi games. I can't help feeling that, if the demonstrators don't succeed in disrupting the games, the whole effort will have been rather pointless. If, on the other hand, they did succeed in causing some disruption, and major embarrassment for the Russian organisers, I think the backlash, in Putin's Russia, would be horrific. Hence my discomfort.

[LeCharivari]

Interesting post, LeC. I too had noticed how many more anti-gay protesters were arrested, but I didn't know the police were protecting the gays.

Throughout this discussion, I've been concerned about the effect of the demonstrations in relation to the Sochi games. I can't help feeling that, if the demonstrators don't succeed in disrupting the games, the whole effort will have been rather pointless. If, on the other hand, they did succeed in causing some disruption, and major embarrassment for the Russian organisers, I think the backlash, in Putin's Russia, would be horrific. Hence my discomfort.

"I didn't know the police were protecting the gays"

Its surprisingly clear if you look through some of the photos - they are physically holding back the counter-protesters and in some cases in this and other demonstrations half a dozen police will form a defensive line around a couple of gay protesters who have been attacked (and even protect them when they are kissing!).

In some photos in the links some gay protesters are being manhandled by guys in blue and white striped T-shirts; these aren't police, but Russian paratroops who took exception to an attempt to protest on their parade - not a good idea!

To be fair to the Russian police they are far fairer than they are often given credit for. As long as a demonstration or rally has been approved they will protect them against counter-protests regardless of who they are; if a rally hasn't been approved, though, then the gloves are off.

" If, on the other hand, they did succeed in causing some disruption, and major embarrassment for the Russian organisers, I think the backlash, in Putin's Russia, would be horrific."

I would be surprised if there is much of note at Sochi, despite the hype - its easy to justify crowd and visitor control on security grounds, just as happened in London's Olympics, etc (possibly more so with Chechnya) and so far, as far as I know, there's only one openly gay athlete competing (and one more who will probably qualify) and as neither stands much chance of winning a medal they probably won't be able to make much of a "statement" even if they want to.

Edited October 14, 2013 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

Feisty Fry still at it!

[onthemoon]

Feisty Fry still at it!

[LeCharivari]

Feisty Fry still at it!

A rather sad reflection of two equally self-centred, pompous and unpleasant men.

It is disappointing to see someone who is as articulate as Stephen Fry reduced to simply abusing his opponent with comments like "you really ought to stop because you're making a great fool of yourself on camera ... people are going to think 'is this man (Milonov) actually allowed to use the street and the telephone let alone be a politician ... you're really not making any sense, deputy - half a politician, half a semi-educated religious person ...." instead of putting forward anything rational or constructive.

Gays deserve to be represented rationally - Fry, sadly, totally failed to do that.

[onthemoon]

Feisty Fry still at it!

A rather sad reflection of two equally self-centred, pompous and unpleasant men.

It is disappointing to see someone who is as articulate as Stephen Fry reduced to simply abusing his opponent with comments like "you really ought to stop because you're making a great fool of yourself on camera ... people are going to think 'is this man (Milonov) actually allowed to use the street and the telephone let alone be a politician ... you're really not making any sense, deputy - half a politician, half a semi-educated religious person ...." instead of putting forward anything rational or constructive.

Gays deserve to be represented rationally - Fry, sadly, totally failed to do that.

Well, I for one really enjoyed the way Fry played him. That may not be fair, but then I am biased: I think the Russian government is wrong. I admit I'm a bit emotional about it.

[Jingthing]

This clip is from a two hour show that Fry did about global homophobia. Do watch it if you can!

Stephen Fry is GREAT, suicide attempt or not, I am so happy he didn't succeed in that!

Edited October 20, 2013 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

This clip is from a two hour show that Fry did about global homophobia. Do watch it if you can!

Stephen Fry is GREAT, suicide attempt or not, I am so happy he didn't succeed in that!

Just watched the first hour.

My major criticism of Fry is that he needs a style consultant. His haircut is a disgrace, and his clothing could be better.

Other than that, he is a hero.

[Jingthing]

This clip is from a two hour show that Fry did about global homophobia. Do watch it if you can!

Stephen Fry is GREAT, suicide attempt or not, I am so happy he didn't succeed in that!

Just watched the first hour.

My major criticism of Fry is that he needs a style consultant. His haircut is a disgrace, and his clothing could be better.

Other than that, he is a hero.

The man has severe issues with bipolar disorder. He almost died during the African part of the trip in the doc by suicide. That is a MEDICAL condition. I think focusing on his dress and hair seems very petty. I really didn't notice. Maybe I'm not "gay" enough.

Agree, he's a brilliant man and a hero.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

This clip is from a two hour show that Fry did about global homophobia. Do watch it if you can!

Stephen Fry is GREAT, suicide attempt or not, I am so happy he didn't succeed in that!

Just watched the first hour.

My major criticism of Fry is that he needs a style consultant. His haircut is a disgrace, and his clothing could be better.

Other than that, he is a hero.

The man has severe issues with bipolar disorder. He almost died during the African part of the trip in the doc by suicide. That is a MEDICAL condition. I think focusing on his dress and hair seems very petty. I really didn't notice. Maybe I'm not "gay" enough.

Agree, he's a brilliant man and a hero.

I had no idea about his medical condition, I just took (and take) him as a journalist. As an advocate for gay acceptance.

Presentation does count if you want results. Out there in the world, you don't get bonus points for medical conditions. Not that I'm not sympathetic, but the world isn't.

[Jingthing]

Not everyone is that superficial.

[onthemoon]

Not everyone is that superficial.

Well OK, next time I won't follow your links.

Better yet, please don't post any, so that you don't get an honest opinion

[Jingthing]

Not everyone is that superficial.

Well OK, next time I won't follow your links.

Better yet, please don't post any, so that you don't get an honest opinion

Your loss. If you post an opinion, people might respond to that opinion. Personally I can't imagine the issue of that doc being the dress and hair of the world famous and much loved Mr. Fry.

Seriously, he's pushing 60 and overweight, not a pop star or a t.v. news reader, more like a famous INTELLECTUAL, why does it matter how fashionable people find his clothes and hair?

He is also a very accomplished actor. When playing roles he of course wears costumes and has his hair done for the roles. That's different of course.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

Good night to you, too.

[ToddWeston]

I wouldn't call him intellectuaI just because he hosted QI, he's a comdeic actor, look at Blackladder and his best mate Mr Bean.'Some of his politics I agree with especially Palestine, but he's an entertainer at the end of the day and will jump on any issue for press gay or straight.

And yes the hair is bad

[LeCharivari]

Just watched the first hour.

My major criticism of Fry is that he needs a style consultant. His haircut is a disgrace, and his clothing could be better.

Other than that, he is a hero.

The man has severe issues with bipolar disorder. He almost died during the African part of the trip in the doc by suicide. That is a MEDICAL condition. I think focusing on his dress and hair seems very petty. I really didn't notice. Maybe I'm not "gay" enough.

Agree, he's a brilliant man and a hero.

I had no idea about his medical condition, I just took (and take) him as a journalist. As an advocate for gay acceptance.

Presentation does count if you want results. Out there in the world, you don't get bonus points for medical conditions. Not that I'm not sympathetic, but the world isn't.

I hate to admit it, but I have to side with Jingthing (or at least his quoted view) here.

Stephen Fry is best known, apart from his acting and comedy roles, for his openness about his bipolar issues and his support for those others with a similar condition through his presidency of Mind. His work as an "advocate for gay acceptance" is, by comparison, relatively minor and hardly grounds for judging whether he is "brilliant and a hero" or not.

I also have to take issue with your view that "Presentation does count if you want results. Out there in the world, you don't get bonus points for medical conditions. Not that I'm not sympathetic, but the world isn't." I believe that "the world" may not be "sympathetic" and while it may not justify "bonus points" it does not and should not stop anyone being judged by "the world" on the merits of their ideas rather than their appearance - Stephen Hawking is an obvious example.

[LeCharivari]

I wouldn't call him intellectuaI just because he hosted QI, he's a comdeic actor, look at Blackladder and his best mate Mr Bean.'Some of his politics I agree with especially Palestine, but he's an entertainer at the end of the day and will jump on any issue for press gay or straight.

And yes the hair is bad

God, I've got to agree with Jingthing twice in a row!

I think Fry deserves the appelation "intellectual", at least in comparison with other actors - after all, he did go to Queen's College, Cambridge, on a scholarship. His acting partner, Hugh Laurie, also went to Cambridge at the same time (Selwyn College) after Eton. ... and Mr Bean (Rowan Atkinson) went to Newcastle University and Queen's College, Oxford - Blackadder and Mr Bean were written by Richard Curtis, who went to Harrow and Christ Church, Oxford.

The hair's an affectation, and a successful one - after all, he'd get far less attention as just another "suit" than he does playing the part of an eccentric upper class Englishman.

.

Edited October 21, 2013 by LeCharivari