Electrics for new house - can it be explained in layman's terms?

[bankruatsteve]

Are you talking about RCBO as the main breaker? That usually has L and N connectors from supply. If you are implementing "MEN", that would have the Neutral bar and Ground bar connection independent of the breaker. IE: I don't think you want to run anything from the breaker to the ground bar.

Look at the way MEN is implemented in Thailand (Forky's pinned thread), incoming Neutral goes to the RCBO via the Earth bar.

Same as the US NEC.

Oh, sorry about that. Actually, I can't imagine RCBO being used in a normal US installation (in the CU). N and G are bonded in the CU but N from supply is always connected to the Neutral bar. (Although I haven't seen the NEC for over 30 years.) Then 110v breakers are connected to either one side or the other of the half-phase. Whatever...

As for the "way" of a switch, in the US the "way" is how many terminal connections are available. IE: the British "2-way" is American "3-way".

[Forkinhades]

• Assuming that the live wire is black and the neutral is white, which colour(s) would you recommend for the three wires connecting the two switches?

  I am thinking I will just use black wire to make it clear, that they are all potentially live.

As I understand it the two two-way switches will be connected together L1 to L1, L2 to L2 and Common to Common. Incoming live will go to L1 and the live wire to the lamps will come from L2. Other than that the lamp will, of course, also be connected to the circuits neutral wire. Any of the three wires connecting the two two-way switches may at any time be live (depending on the switch positions).

Black. There are 2 ways methods to connect up 2 way switches, method 1 has live (feed) and switch line at one switch, method 2 has live at one switch and switch line at other), advise what you have

As of this moment I don't have anything. I will see what is available at the local shops.

OK, I have now bought two Panasonic two-way/three-way switches (both terms seem to be used about the same thing, I don't know which is correct). The switches have three terminals on the back marked "0", "1" and "3" like this:

3-way switch.jpg

I have seen many confusing (to me) diagrams on the internet about how to wire a two/three-way switch, one of the few that made sense to me is this one:

Two-way Light Switch Wiring.GIF

But in the diagram they use the terms "common", "live 1" and "live 2". Is the circuit in the diagram a proper way to wire two/three-way switches, and if so how does the C, L1 and L2 correspond to the 0, 1 and 3 on my Panasonic switches?

Thanks again to everyone for their help, I believe I am slowly running out of questions (but make no promises).

Sophon

For me, it makes more sense to run L to Com/0 of switch-1 and the load (light) to Com/0 of switch-2 with a double wire between the switches connecting L1,L2. Then you don't have to run extra wire. And, I always test the switch with an ohm meter to make sure which terminal "common".

It's horses for courses really, and if it is a full conduit system with single cables then that method you suggest would be the one to use. However if 2 core or 3 core cables have been used, then IMO the live and switch would be used as one of the cables, and taken to one switch. Which would then require a 3 core between the 2 switches, and the final terminations would be different in each system.

You then would have the thai way........

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[Sophon]

Quick and (hopefully) easy question.

I know that when wiring a switch or power outlet you should not leave the wires too short. On the other hand, if the wires are too long you might have problems squeezing them all into the box, which could also cause problems later. So what is a suitable length to cut the wires coming out of the switch/outlet box down to?

Sophon

[Crossy]

The usual rule is to leave them long enough to re-make the connection twice.

Personally I like about 3".

[Sophon]

The usual rule is to leave them long enough to re-make the connection twice.

Personally I like about 3".

Thanks Crossy, 3 inches it is.

Sophon

[Sophon]

Things are progressing slowly, and most of the wiring have now been done on the upstairs floor. There is still a kitchen wall missing, so we have to wait for that to be build in order to finish the last few outlets and switches.

This is what the breaker box looks like:

The earth wire and the wire connecting the RCBO with the earth bar are temporary (while doing the first tests), and will be replaced with 16 mm² wires, and obviously the incoming live and neutral are not yet connected. Other than that, can anyone see any major (or minor) issues with the wiring that need to be addressed?

Thanks in advance (once more).

Sophon

Edited April 10, 2014 by Sophon

[thomasteve]

Things are progressing slowly, and most of the wiring have now been done on the upstairs floor. There is still a kitchen wall missing, so we have to wait for that to be build in order to finish the last few outlets and switches.

This is what the breaker box looks like:

DSCI0979_800x600.jpg

The earth wire and the wire connecting the RCBO with the earth bar are temporary (while doing the first tests), and will be replaced with 16 mm² wires, and obviously the incoming live and neutral are not yet connected. Other than that, can anyone see any major (or minor) issues with the wiring that need to be addressed?

Thanks in advance (once more).

Sophon

looks very neat !!

Not sure how important this is (and probably too late now for you) but usually the higher current circuits and breakers (eg.32A) are positioned closest to the RCD/main switch. Provided the bus bar is of ample proportions shouldn't be a problem though.

Edited April 10, 2014 by thomasteve

[IMHO]

Things are progressing slowly, and most of the wiring have now been done on the upstairs floor. There is still a kitchen wall missing, so we have to wait for that to be build in order to finish the last few outlets and switches.

This is what the breaker box looks like:

DSCI0979_800x600.jpg

The earth wire and the wire connecting the RCBO with the earth bar are temporary (while doing the first tests), and will be replaced with 16 mm² wires, and obviously the incoming live and neutral are not yet connected. Other than that, can anyone see any major (or minor) issues with the wiring that need to be addressed?

Thanks in advance (once more).

Sophon

Biggest problem I can see is that's it's been mounted crooked!

[Sophon]

Things are progressing slowly, and most of the wiring have now been done on the upstairs floor. There is still a kitchen wall missing, so we have to wait for that to be build in order to finish the last few outlets and switches.

This is what the breaker box looks like:

DSCI0979_800x600.jpg

The earth wire and the wire connecting the RCBO with the earth bar are temporary (while doing the first tests), and will be replaced with 16 mm² wires, and obviously the incoming live and neutral are not yet connected. Other than that, can anyone see any major (or minor) issues with the wiring that need to be addressed?

Thanks in advance (once more).

Sophon

looks very neat !!

Not sure how important this is (and probably too late now for you) but usually the higher current circuits and breakers (eg.32A) are positioned closest to the RCD/main switch. Provided the bus bar is of ample proportions shouldn't be a problem though.

You have me a little worried now, even though you say it shouldn't be a problem. As you say, it's too late now to change the breakers around (the wires won't be long enough), so they have to stay the way they are.

I Googled breaker box pictures, but the results didn't really show a pattern of the bigger breakers being closest to the RCBO, if anything they seemed to be placed farthest from the RCBO (like in our box). Maybe it depends on which country you come from?

Thanks for the comments.

Sophon

[Sophon]

Things are progressing slowly, and most of the wiring have now been done on the upstairs floor. There is still a kitchen wall missing, so we have to wait for that to be build in order to finish the last few outlets and switches.

This is what the breaker box looks like:

DSCI0979_800x600.jpg

The earth wire and the wire connecting the RCBO with the earth bar are temporary (while doing the first tests), and will be replaced with 16 mm² wires, and obviously the incoming live and neutral are not yet connected. Other than that, can anyone see any major (or minor) issues with the wiring that need to be addressed?

Thanks in advance (once more).

Sophon

Biggest problem I can see is that's it's been mounted crooked!

Luckily, my image editing program has a rotate feature so I can fix that.

But on a more serious note, you don't see any problems with the wiring?

Sophon

[Crossy]

Looks fine to me, I wouldn't worry about the location of the various breaker ratings, convention puts them near the main switch put there's no real reason in a modern unit.

Oddly, the nice neat clipped wiring is frowned upon as grouping the wires closely actually causes them to get warmer than they would in air (reducing their current carrying capacity). But unless you have a load that's continually near the cable rating I wouldn't worry about it.

[Sophon]

Looks fine to me, I wouldn't worry about the location of the various breaker ratings, convention puts them near the main switch put there's no real reason in a modern unit.

Oddly, the nice neat clipped wiring is frowned upon as grouping the wires closely actually causes them to get warmer than they would in air (reducing their current carrying capacity). But unless you have a load that's continually near the cable rating I wouldn't worry about it.

With regards to the breaker location, maybe it's just one of those things where there used to be a good technical reason for locating the larger breakers close to the main breaker, but now it's just a matter of habit that will slowly disappear. Global sells units that come preloaded with breakers like this one:

As you can see the smaller breakers are located closest to the main breaker. Not that proves anything, since the breakers can be moved around, but still...

I can understand the heat issue with many wires close together, but none of our circuits will continually be anywhere close to their maximum capacity. And it would seriously disturb my sense of order in the universe having a birds nest of wires in by breaker box, so I will happily leave it as it is

Thanks again to everyone.

Sophon

[Forkinhades]

IMO it is always best to have your highest rated breakers next to the main switch, and work your way to the lowest.

This is what was taught.

So you do not have high currents on the lower rated breakers.

With modern day devices, its probably is not an issue.

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[transam]

I went to a new house the other day. Did not have an electric shower installed in the loo, but had the wiring. One red and two white wires.

Obviously one is an earth, but which one is the earth and which is the neutral. ? Live no probs cos a reading on E & N....

[Forkinhades]

Nothing obvious about thai electrics im afraid.

Assumption is very dangerous

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[thomasteve]

IMO it is always best to have your highest rated breakers next to the main switch, and work your way to the lowest.

This is what was taught.

So you do not have high currents on the lower rated breakers.

With modern day devices, its probably is not an issue.

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Is there any convention that the main switch always has to be on the left side ?

Some busbars may not fit if was reversed to the right hand side of course but this is how split load and high integrity consumer units (in UK) do it with a grouping of circuit breakers and their associated RCD on the right side.

[Forkinhades]

No, just manufacturers choice.

Having said some manufacturers have both.

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[Sophon]

OK, we are now about ready to connect to the main supply, but I am not sure about the correct way to install the ground rod. I know from advice earlier in this topic that Thai code requires a (minimum) 2.4 meter ground rod, so I will be buying one of those in the coming days. I have a spot picked out for the rod close to the septic and seepage tanks, where the ground should be moist even in the dry season.

Can anyone give a step by step instruction on how the ground rod should be installed, addressing but not limited to the following specific questions:

• Should the top of the ground bar be above or below ground level (I assume below), and at what level should the ground wire be connected?
• I see they have clamps that screw on to the ground bar to connect the ground wire. Do those provide a adequate connection, or should the wire be soldered/welded to the ground rod? Can you even weld coper wire?
• Should the connection between rod and wire be left unprotected, or is there some kind of "sleeve" that slips on to protect the connection from corroding?

Of course, a link to a good guide on the internet would also suffice.

Your advice is, as always, appreciated and thank you again for all the information I have received over the last few months.

Sophon

[Forkinhades]

Make yourself a pit of about 150x150mms square x 100mm deep.

The top of the rod should be exposed by about 50mm

Once you have made your connection by clamp (do not weld) at the top of the rod, you can then cover your pit, with a small slab of stone.

These are actually available pre made in the UK.

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[Forkinhades]

Picture

http://www.ewholesaler.co.uk/shopimages/sections/normal/cable_access/perep.jpg

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[Sophon]

Make yourself a pit of about 150x150mms square x 100mm deep.

The top of the rod should be exposed by about 50mm

Once you have made your connection by clamp (do not weld) at the top of the rod, you can then cover your pit, with a small slab of stone.

These are actually available pre made in the UK.

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Thanks for the quick reply. So, if I understand you correctly the top of the ground bar will be about 5 cm below ground level but 5 cm above the level of the bottom of the pit?

I don't now if the box you link to in your post is available in Thailand, but I guess we could build our own out of concrete topped with a slab. Is the purpose of the box to protect from corrosion or to allow inspection of the connection from time to time (or both)?

Sophon

[Forkinhades]

Yes inspection and prevention of corrosion.

The top of the rod should be about 50mm above ground level from inside the pit.

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[Crossy]

You could use on of the PVC drain access covers like you use in the bathroom floor, ours is actually a concrete drain box that was left over from construction.

PEA actually do recommend welding using one of the thermic weld packs (think Thermite), if done properly these welds can actually be buried (not recommending it mind).

[Sophon]

You could use on of the PVC drain access covers like you use in the bathroom floor, ours is actually a concrete drain box that was left over from construction.

PEA actually do recommend welding using one of the thermic weld packs (think Thermite), if done properly these welds can actually be buried (not recommending it mind).

"PVC drain access covers"?

Sorry, but that doesn't ring a bell. Do you have a link to a website showing such a cover?

Thanks for the input.

Sophon

[Crossy]

I'll have a hunt, you probably have one in the bathroom floor, it's a length of 3" PVC with a screw in cover (ours are brass) that makes a flush finish with the tiles, intended to keep the c**p in but allow cleaning.

EDIT something like this (this one's a bit flash mind)

[Sophon]

I'll have a hunt, you probably have one in the bathroom floor, it's a length of 3" PVC with a screw in cover (ours are brass) that makes a flush finish with the tiles, intended to keep the c**p in but allow cleaning.

EDIT something like this (this one's a bit flash mind)

Thanks, that gives me an idea of what to look for.

Not that it's relevant for my use, but what exactly is it that you can access through this, the septic tank? The only thing we have that looks anything like this in our current (rented) house is in the top cover of the outside concrete septic tank. In our new house we will have the black plastic septic tanks and access to all pipes from downstairs, so I don't see where we could have the need for such an access cover.

Thanks again.

Sophon

[bankruatsteve]

Isn't that otherwise known as "the drain" for a shower stall?

[thomasteve]

The manufactured round black septic tanks do have an access lid fitted or manhole cover at the top that's about 20cm in diameter.

Crossy's is for the concrete ring settlement 'tanks' but sometimes these are also used on modified septic tanks where they need to fit an extension to the normal cover plate using large diameter blue piping.

The pipe opening is then closed off with a plastic or brass cover normally level with the ground.

Edited May 25, 2014 by thomasteve

[thomasteve]

Isn't that otherwise known as "the drain" for a shower stall?

No, its a larger diameter pipe and the shower drain or trap (if lucky enough to have one fitted !!) cover is a metal or plastic sieve or plate with holes to let the water drain away.

[Crossy]

Isn't that otherwise known as "the drain" for a shower stall?

No, its a larger diameter pipe and the shower drain or trap (if lucky enough to have one fitted !!) cover is a metal or plastic sieve or plate with holes to let the water drain away.

It's actually sealed, clean-out access for the black-water system, ours are PVC with a 'brass' screw in cover let into the bathroom floor.