Brits. Now there's definitely a segment of humanity that was the result of cosmic creation gone stark haywire.

Yanks... one has to wonder if they are actually from this planet...

totster

Hmmmm, you might be right there, tots. Didn't they come from the heavens to be the world saviours?? But only ended up being universal cops??

More like ended up being universal pain in the <deleted>...

totster

Jesus H. Keerist...& y'all used to bust my balls for posting 'off-the-wall' sh1t...

I am Aries; my Chinese horoscope is Wood Dragon; my American Indian symbol is Dragon-fly; I had my palm read in Pushkar, India - I know my path in life yet my palm leaf history is unknown to me...... so my destiny is still a secret!

What is the meaning of life? I have no idea - but I like to think that I have a better idea than most.

I 've even seen a few amazing, unidentified flying objects. In fact, they were so unidentifiable I didn't even bother reporting them! Why would I?

Life is a mystery, never to be repeated again!!!

Some interesting thoughts here. I thought the op was about what we thought without refuting anybody's views. Refuting would be to disprove by presenting evidence to the contrary. I'm not sure that it would be possible to prove or disprove anyone's idea of God.

I hope that my thoughts did not qualify for 'religious rant'. Not at all, suegha. You merely stated your beliefs in your post, plain and simple. I made the joke because many interpret traditional religious views as such no matter what. Too many people who resent trying to be 'saved' when they don't feel they need it, or pressured to convert to one faith or another. It's a turn off for many when it happens. But that is not at all what you did in your post and I don't believe that you're trying to save or convert anyone else here by expressing your views. You're as welcome as anyone as far as I'm concerned. And you most definitely have value to add, too. However, to make the assumption that a person of any religious persuasion has an unquestioning faith is incorrect. All of my conclusions have resulted from a questioning faith! How else would I seek? You're absolutely right here, suegha. But I would add that once you have arrived at your conclusions you no longer question. You have found your answers, believe them to be immutable, and that's the end of that. There is little more to discuss once a person has complete conviction, be it religion or politics. That may be good . . . and it may be bad. It's obviously bad in the case of Moslems who are convinced that infidels should be put to death. At what point do you stop questioning altogether?

One ability that I believe is God given is our ability to ask these deeper questions, for what animal asks 'why are we here?' or what's it all about?' I don't think animals need to ask the questions we do because I believe they already possess innate knowing on the subject.

Also, just to deal with the comment about 'organised religion', I agree, I am opposed to organised religion! What good has it ever done? I do believe that our capacity for abstract thought allows us a certain dominion which affords us the capacity for 'spirituality'. So when we ponder the bigger picture, we prove this capacity! To my knowledge we are spirits. Spirits in the flesh, blood and bone form. Some religion speaks of the soul and make reference to it as a possession which is to be claimed or lost. Soul, spirit, same same as far as I'm concerned. Yet if existence transcends this earthly reality, or in other words we exist in other terms besides what we currently recognize ourselves to be, then I would consider us to be spirits.

My biggest bug-bear is that people confuse the organised church/religion with our spirituality. No one can teach us the truth, we must find it for ourselves. I firmly agree with both statements. And, yes, spirituality is generally associated with religion. Since definitions actually vary from individual to individual language and terminology most certainly can become misleading. I have found mine and I have total faith and happiness in what I believe. This does mean that I am constantly searching, for our journey to the truth ends in a destination. For me the destination is life everlasting in the kingdom of God. With sincerety and respect, I'm happy for you, suegha.

No offence meant to any who hold opposing views. You gave no offense at all. I can fully appreciate your views.

Jesus H. Keerist...& y'all used to bust my balls for posting 'off-the-wall' sh1t...

Well, I guess you can bust mine now, Boon.

BTW, what are your views on life, the here now, and the here after? Do you believe GWB is going to hel_l or hel_l, or does he have any other options?

Do you believe GWB is going to hel_l or hel_l, or does he have any other options?

Bono of U2 says that George W. Bush is genuinely a good, caring person trying to do the best he can in a difficult situation.

Who am I to argue with a saintly, working class hero like Bono?

5555555555555555555555555555

Another thread hijacked....

totster

Edit: I'll add that I do believe Buddhism has it right in espousing reincarnation.

This is one of the most common misconceptions about Buddhism: that it teaches there is an immortal soul being reborn over and over in a succession of bodies. That's a Hindu belief. The Buddhist idea is that a chain of causality links different physical existences, but it isn't a soul or self, so Buddhists generally use the term 'rebirth' instead of reincarnation.

In fact, the Buddha rarely mentioned rebirth. He said on many occasions, "I teach suffering, and the way out of suffering." In other words, his central message was enlightenment/nirvana in this life. But the popular Buddhism you see all around you in Thailand and other countries holds that your self/soul continues on unchanged (except for memory loss!) in a succesion of bodies, resulting in "karmic bonds" with loved ones from former lives.

My take on life from the Buddhist perspective is that there was no beginning to the universe(s), there was no creator, and therefore there is no pre-ordained purpose to life. But because we evolved intelligence, we feel we need a purpose to make our life meaningful. And the purpose for a Buddhist is to train the mind until the suffering/stress/anxiety is all gone.

My take on life from the Buddhist perspective is that there was no beginning to the universe(s), there was no creator, and therefore there is no pre-ordained purpose to life. But because we evolved intelligence, we feel we need a purpose to make our life meaningful. And the purpose for a Buddhist is to train the mind until the suffering/stress/anxiety is all gone.

In other words, life is a b*tch and then you die!

In other words, life is a b*tch and then you die!

Heh heh... too fatalistic. A Buddhist would turn the bitch into bliss.

Edit: I'll add that I do believe Buddhism has it right in espousing reincarnation.

This is one of the most common misconceptions about Buddhism: that it teaches there is an immortal soul being reborn over and over in a succession of bodies. That's a Hindu belief. The Buddhist idea is that a chain of causality links different physical existences, but it isn't a soul or self, so Buddhists generally use the term 'rebirth' instead of reincarnation.

In fact, the Buddha rarely mentioned rebirth. He said on many occasions, "I teach suffering, and the way out of suffering." In other words, his central message was enlightenment/nirvana in this life. But the popular Buddhism you see all around you in Thailand and other countries holds that your self/soul continues on unchanged (except for memory loss!) in a succesion of bodies, resulting in "karmic bonds" with loved ones from former lives.

My take on life from the Buddhist perspective is that there was no beginning to the universe(s), there was no creator, and therefore there is no pre-ordained purpose to life. But because we evolved intelligence, we feel we need a purpose to make our life meaningful. And the purpose for a Buddhist is to train the mind until the suffering/stress/anxiety is all gone.

So, according to Buddha how did the reality come about? As to enlightenment/nirvana where do you go from there? In other words, is it an end all?

In other words, life is a b*tch and then you die!

Heh heh... too fatalistic. A Buddhist would turn the bitch into bliss.

Yeah, but from what I've seen, for most Buddhists, the bliss part seems to last about the last 10 minutes of their life spans and is due to senility rather than study and meditation.

I don't know much about Buddhism and would like to know more, especially after living in Thailand, but perhaps it is one of the better ideolgies available.

You might try and get hold of 'The Heart of Buddhism' by Guy Claxton.

Thanks, endure. I'll check it out. BTW, do you subscribe to Buddhism, or any part of it?

I try to follow the teachings whenever I can. I've always thought that there are two versions of most religions - the original version and the human version. The original version proclaims what appear to me to be simple truths and precepts -'love thy neighbour as thyself' - 'avoid evil, do good, purify the mind' etc. Then the humans get involved and complicate matters - 'who is my neighbour?' - 'what is evil?' and other questions which satisfiy human intellectual curiousity but don't seem to advance the original intent of the religion at all. I prefer the simple version.

Yeah, but from what I've seen, for most Buddhists, the bliss part seems to last about the last 10 minutes of their life spans and is due to senility rather than study and meditation.

I think for most people - even the very dedicated Buddhists - the real benefits of practising Buddhism accumulate gradually on the way. You train your mind so that things bother you less and less, and life becomes more satisfying as a result. Since the training goes against the natural tendency of the mind to crave excitement, it gets a lot easier when you're older.

I prefer the simple version.

Simple. Simple?.....jeez guys, my mind has been boggling since the beginning!

I am Aries; my Chinese horoscope is Wood Dragon; my American Indian symbol is Dragon-fly; I had my palm read in Pushkar, India - I know my path in life yet my palm leaf history is unknown to me...... so my destiny is still a secret!

What is the meaning of life? I have no idea - but I like to think that I have a better idea than most.

I 've even seen a few amazing, unidentified flying objects. In fact, they were so unidentifiable I didn't even bother reporting them! Why would I?

Life is a mystery, never to be repeated again!!!

What's your karma biscuit?

I don't know much about Buddhism and would like to know more, especially after living in Thailand, but perhaps it is one of the better ideolgies available.

You might try and get hold of 'The Heart of Buddhism' by Guy Claxton.

Thanks, endure. I'll check it out. BTW, do you subscribe to Buddhism, or any part of it?

I try to follow the teachings whenever I can. I've always thought that there are two versions of most religions - the original version and the human version. The original version proclaims what appear to me to be simple truths and precepts -'love thy neighbour as thyself' - 'avoid evil, do good, purify the mind' etc. Then the humans get involved and complicate matters - 'who is my neighbour?' - 'what is evil?' and other questions which satisfiy human intellectual curiousity but don't seem to advance the original intent of the religion at all. I prefer the simple version.

Interesting post - the truth and the human version, I like that! You're right, we think we are so clever that we find it hard to accept simple truths. (when I say we I mean mankind)

So, according to Buddha how did the reality come about? As to enlightenment/nirvana where do you go from there? In other words, is it an end all?

The Buddha refused to answer any questions about the origin or extent of the universe at all because they aren't relevant to the goal of eradicating suffering. So Buddhists don't care how the cosmos began. That's only important in religions that justify the existence of god by saying that only god could have created everything. But seeing the reality of here and now is very important in Buddhism. That's the purpose of insight meditation.

There's nothing beyond nirvana - that's the end of the road. But exactly what it is, especially after death, is a mystery. The Buddha could only describe what it was not, but the fact that he referred to it as the Deathless is encouraging.

I don't know much about Buddhism and would like to know more, especially after living in Thailand, but perhaps it is one of the better ideolgies available.

You might try and get hold of 'The Heart of Buddhism' by Guy Claxton.

Thanks, endure. I'll check it out. BTW, do you subscribe to Buddhism, or any part of it?

I try to follow the teachings whenever I can. I've always thought that there are two versions of most religions - the original version and the human version. The original version proclaims what appear to me to be simple truths and precepts -'love thy neighbour as thyself' - 'avoid evil, do good, purify the mind' etc. Then the humans get involved and complicate matters - 'who is my neighbour?' - 'what is evil?' and other questions which satisfiy human intellectual curiousity but don't seem to advance the original intent of the religion at all. I prefer the simple version.

'Avoid evil', 'do good', 'what is evil', are all relative terms. One man's good is another man's evil. When the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima it was good for some but not for the Japanese who were there, obviously. And then again, does evil even exist? Or is evil simply anything that is not wanted - from the perspective of the individual who prefers it not? Many things have been considered 'evil' by people who simply don't agree with the things they label as evil. And even the things that most would consider 'evil' would still fall under that category of personal interpretation based on individual preferences.

It's interesting that many people do not believe in a God yet still believe in evil. If God cannot be proven to exist then the same can be said for the Devil. Throw out God but keep the Devil? My response would be, "The devil I will!!" If God doesn't exist then obviously the Devil doesn't, either. In which case what was once passed off as simply 'evil' must then be redefined and explained in other terms. Do I make valid points?

So, according to Buddha how did the reality come about? As to enlightenment/nirvana where do you go from there? In other words, is it an end all?

The Buddha refused to answer any questions about the origin or extent of the universe at all because they aren't relevant to the goal of eradicating suffering. So Buddhists don't care how the cosmos began. That's only important in religions that justify the existence of god by saying that only god could have created everything. But seeing the reality of here and now is very important in Buddhism. That's the purpose of insight meditation.

There's nothing beyond nirvana - that's the end of the road. But exactly what it is, especially after death, is a mystery. The Buddha could only describe what it was not, but the fact that he referred to it as the Deathless is encouraging.

It's interesting that the Buddha could not describe what nirvana was. Unless, of course, human language falls short in providing a description since it's a state that is beyond existence as we know it. But, at that point would we even be here, then? If it's an achievable state of human existence then I would think that what that state would be like could be described.

The whole state of nirvana, or absolute bliss, seems to me to be not much different than the state of 'heaven.' Everything is in a state of absolute perfection. Yet to my mind perfection would be true death since it suggests a state where creativity can go no further. Not a place I'd like to be in, to tell the truth. Where's the fun if there's no more growth, nothing new, nothing more to learn, nothing more beautiful to see, nothing more to discover? It's gotta get pretty stale after awhile. Would it be fun to play a game if you knew you were going to win each and every time? If there's no longer any challenge to existence then is it anything more than a permanent vacation to paradise?

Also, to my mind there is nothing that can be eradicated. Suffering exists, period. As does everything else. That's not to say that suffering must be experienced. I'd be curious to know how suffering is to be eradicated, or anything else for that matter.

It's interesting that many people do not believe in a God yet still believe in evil. If God cannot be proven to exist then the same can be said for the Devil. Throw out God but keep the Devil? My response would be, "The devil I will!!" If God doesn't exist then obviously the Devil doesn't, either. In which case what was once passed off as simply 'evil' must then be redefined and explained in other terms. Do I make valid points?

'Evil' in Buddhism is better defined as 'unskilfulness'. It's something which moves you away from the realisation of nibbana, not a social definition. Buddhism isn't in the business of judging or condemning other people - it's there for you to realise your own salvation through your own actions. As far as your question about valid points are you saying that if I don't believe in the existence of God then it's not possible for evil to exist?

It's interesting that many people do not believe in a God yet still believe in evil. If God cannot be proven to exist then the same can be said for the Devil. Throw out God but keep the Devil? My response would be, "The devil I will!!" If God doesn't exist then obviously the Devil doesn't, either. In which case what was once passed off as simply 'evil' must then be redefined and explained in other terms. Do I make valid points?

'Evil' in Buddhism is better defined as 'unskilfulness'. It's something which moves you away from the realisation of nibbana, not a social definition. Buddhism isn't in the business of judging or condemning other people - it's there for you to realise your own salvation through your own actions. As far as your question about valid points are you saying that if I don't believe in the existence of God then it's not possible for evil to exist?

If there is good and evil, God representing the source of good while the devil represents the source of evil, and yet God does not exist so neither does the devil, and if the devil is the source of all evil and the devil does not exist then it would be impossible for evil to exist without it's source. That is what appears to my logic.

I do acknowledge that people have the potential to create abhorrences, and that these would be termed evil given a belief in good and evil. But I do not believe in evil. I have never experienced evil in my entire life. I do belief in ignorance, which I would attribute to actions considered evil by others. Ignorance is simply lacking knowledge. No one knows everything there is to know, therefore we are all ignorant to one extent or another. Perhaps my definition of ignorance is akin to the Buddhist definition of 'unskillfulness?' Is 'unskillfulness' simply a Buddhist term for evil? In other words, does Buddhism believe in evil?

I do not believe in salvation given the following definition:

1: the saving of a person from sin or its consequences especially in the life after death

In my book what is termed sin is to me ignorance. Since we are all ignorant then we are obviously all with sin. If live is nothing else it is a learning experience. It's a learning experience because we are all ignorant of one thing or another. Learning implies making mistakes. Mistakes may be great or small, mild or horrific, and anything in between. And it is mistakes that are then termed sin. Some mistakes, based on a one's personal values, would be considered not sin but simply pure evil. So then, following through on this logic, the only way salvation would work would be for me to know it all, in which case I would no longer make mistakes, or be without sin, or good, or not evil.

But, I see two end results once I am in a postion of knowing it all. First, I will be God, according to the definition that God is all-knowing. Secondly, I may as well be dead since I will have reach the end of growth. Where there is growth there is life. Where there is no growth there is no life.

Do I make sense or am I off my rocker? I'm not being facetious here. Neither am I trying to be right, just expressing the flow of my rational thoughts.

Edit: Neither do I believe in judging others, and it goes without saying that would include condemnation. It's not my business to judge and it is not why I am here. I do assess people, but that is not the same as judging. For example, if you knew someone drank to excess you would state the obvious; he drinks too much. But there would be no personal judgement attached to the assessment. Nice to know that Buddhism does not judge.

As an addendum to the above, I have to question the whole idea of good and evil. I don't actually think in terms of good or evil at all. After all, good and evil are relative terms. What one man believes is good for him another would not choose for himself. What one man considers evil is good for another. And so there are inherent in these terms definite and extreme drawbacks. For how can the world ever come to agreement on what is good and what is not, or what is evil and what is not, if both of these terms are strictly relative? It's an impossibility.

I believe that life is about making choices. When are we not making choices? And since we are continually, constantly making choices day in and day out, every minute of every day, then what are we choosing? Either something we want or something we don't want. And this is precisely where our value judgements enter in. If it's something that is wanted then we deem it to be good. If unwanted, then bad. All of our choices for what is wanted or unwanted are made according to our own personal preferences. It's easy to forget this small detail, and given our penchant for applying our value judgements to all of our choices, then mistakenly believing that our good and bad is the same for everyone (or at least it should be) it's easy to see how concepts of good and evil get started in the first place.

We forget, too, that we live in a world of dualities, opposites. Good has bad, male has female, dark and light, winter and summer, spring and fall, etc. And yet all opposites are the flipsides of the same coin.

what is life about?

Be happy, flamenco and having the last word

what is life about?

Be happy, flamenco and having the last word

Glauka, where have you been, dear? I thought for sure you'd have your two Centimos to add to this thread. You're feisty and have an outspoken mind. A perfect combination for speaking your views. But this is it? Is life truly as simple as that?

Hey, Boon. Are you trying to think of what to add?

what is life about?

Be happy, flamenco and having the last word

Glauka, where have you been, dear? I thought for sure you'd have your two Centimos to add to this thread. You're feisty and have an outspoken mind. A perfect combination for speaking your views. But this is it? Is life truly as simple as that?

well this simplistic view is to show that I think life is simple...why do we want to complicate it? we will die one day so i want to live my life to the fullest...i don´t want to complicate my existence...

I want to be happy and make sure that people close to me is happy and put my two cents to make the world a better place for future generations...i learn this philosophy from my beloved Nanook (my dog)...he lived his life to the fullest i am sure he was happy and he made happy to all of us...and i know my family and myself we will be the same (before he came to our life)...

gosh this sound so taky...not very profound though!....

what is life about?

Be happy, flamenco and having the last word

Glauka, where have you been, dear? I thought for sure you'd have your two Centimos to add to this thread. You're feisty and have an outspoken mind. A perfect combination for speaking your views. But this is it? Is life truly as simple as that?

well this simplistic view is to show that I think life is simple...why do we want to complicate it? we will die one day so i want to live my life to the fullest...i don´t want to complicate my existence...

I want to be happy and make sure that people close to me is happy and put my two cents to make the world a better place for future generations...i learn this philosophy from my beloved Nanook (my dog)...he lived his life to the fullest i am sure he was happy and he made happy to all of us...and i know my family and myself we will be the same (before he came to our life)...

gosh this sound so taky...not very profound though!....

Wonderfully spoken, Glauka.

It's interesting that the Buddha could not describe what nirvana was. Unless, of course, human language falls short in providing a description since it's a state that is beyond existence as we know it.

Exactly. It's beyond conceptual thinking so it can be experienced but not described. "Bliss" is just a conventional way of putting a label on the experience.

Where's the fun if there's no more growth, nothing new, nothing more to learn, nothing more beautiful to see, nothing more to discover? It's gotta get pretty stale after awhile. Would it be fun to play a game if you knew you were going to win each and every time? If there's no longer any challenge to existence then is it anything more than a permanent vacation to paradise?

Well, "paradise" is just another label for something we haven't experienced and can't understand. As to whether it's worth the (considerable) effort, the Buddha said:

Better than one hundred years lived

Without seeing the Deathless

Is one day lived

Seeing the Deathless.

I don't think it would get stale. But we just can't conceive what such a state would be like. From a Buddhist perspective, the fun and growth and discovery you mentioned is just the natural tendency of the mind to constantly seek excitement and new things because it isn't happy with the present moment. That also goes for the way we walk around constantly replaying the past in our minds because the present is boring. Memories from the past, fantasies of the future - the mind will do anything to escape from the present. So learning to enjoy the present is a large part of the practice.

Also, to my mind there is nothing that can be eradicated. Suffering exists, period. As does everything else. That's not to say that suffering must be experienced. I'd be curious to know how suffering is to be eradicated, or anything else for that matter.

Imagine you walked around barefoot and the ground always hurt your feet. To solve the problem, you wouldn't try to coat the entire world with rubber, you'd buy a pair of rubber sandals for your feet. That's the principle. The suffering isn't out in the world, it's inside the mind. So you train the mind not to suffer from all that goes on around you. But, typically, we are always trying to change the world around us to alleviate our stress and anxiety.

There's a good primer on the net from the BSWA. No one ever said practising Buddhism was easy, though.

Hey, Boon. Are you trying to think of what to add?

Touche'!