Hey, Boon. Are you trying to think of what to add?

Touche'!

I gotta say, I love you guys! Two blessed peas in a pod. You guys never give up being yourselfs and despite the fallout from it none of that seems to ruffle you.

It's interesting that the Buddha could not describe what nirvana was. Unless, of course, human language falls short in providing a description since it's a state that is beyond existence as we know it.

Exactly. It's beyond conceptual thinking so it can be experienced but not described. "Bliss" is just a conventional way of putting a label on the experience.

Where's the fun if there's no more growth, nothing new, nothing more to learn, nothing more beautiful to see, nothing more to discover? It's gotta get pretty stale after awhile. Would it be fun to play a game if you knew you were going to win each and every time? If there's no longer any challenge to existence then is it anything more than a permanent vacation to paradise?

Well, "paradise" is just another label for something we haven't experienced and can't understand. As to whether it's worth the (considerable) effort, the Buddha said:

Better than one hundred years lived

Without seeing the Deathless

Is one day lived

Seeing the Deathless.

I don't think it would get stale. But we just can't conceive what such a state would be like. From a Buddhist perspective, the fun and growth and discovery you mentioned is just the natural tendency of the mind to constantly seek excitement and new things because it isn't happy with the present moment. That also goes for the way we walk around constantly replaying the past in our minds because the present is boring. Memories from the past, fantasies of the future - the mind will do anything to escape from the present. So learning to enjoy the present is a large part of the practice.

Also, to my mind there is nothing that can be eradicated. Suffering exists, period. As does everything else. That's not to say that suffering must be experienced. I'd be curious to know how suffering is to be eradicated, or anything else for that matter.

Imagine you walked around barefoot and the ground always hurt your feet. To solve the problem, you wouldn't try to coat the entire world with rubber, you'd buy a pair of rubber sandals for your feet. That's the principle. The suffering isn't out in the world, it's inside the mind. So you train the mind not to suffer from all that goes on around you. But, typically, we are always trying to change the world around us to alleviate our stress and anxiety.

There's a good primer on the net from the BSWA. No one ever said practising Buddhism was easy, though.

Always like your posts on Buddhism.

It's interesting that the Buddha could not describe what nirvana was. Unless, of course, human language falls short in providing a description since it's a state that is beyond existence as we know it.

Exactly. It's beyond conceptual thinking so it can be experienced but not described. "Bliss" is just a conventional way of putting a label on the experience.

That follows my thoughts perfectly. If we exist in other terms than this world then it's obvious that there can be no equivalent comparisons made. An interesting analogy that I've come across is one regarding UFO's. Hypothetically speaking, if 'aliens' from another reality were to visit our reality the inherent problem here would be that they would have to translate their reality into our physical reality for us to be able to perceive them using our physically oriented and physically specific sense mechanisms. Distortions would necessarily result.

The interesting point of that analogy is that people throughout the ages, including the present, have had 'otherly' experiences which, upon their return to their normal consciousness, they must then interpret into their native terms. This translational process involves their particular belief system where their experience gets sifted through their beliefs. Again, distortions necessarily result. Which is why I never take these personal descriptions, or interpretations, at their face value.

As an example, someone with heavy Christian religious beliefs would be predisposed to interpret any trancedental experience in terms of their religion. An entity who gives aid would become a guardian angel, for instance. Is it truly an angel? The person in question would more than likely be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was.

Language provides a good analogy of how experience is translated. For some words in a given language there would be no equivalent words in another. Concepts, on the other hand, are not language dependent. Nor are they bound by personal beliefs. Concepts deal more with direct knowing.

Where's the fun if there's no more growth, nothing new, nothing more to learn, nothing more beautiful to see, nothing more to discover? It's gotta get pretty stale after awhile. Would it be fun to play a game if you knew you were going to win each and every time? If there's no longer any challenge to existence then is it anything more than a permanent vacation to paradise?

Well, "paradise" is just another label for something we haven't experienced and can't understand. As to whether it's worth the (considerable) effort, the Buddha said:

Better than one hundred years lived

Without seeing the Deathless

Is one day lived

Seeing the Deathless.

I don't think it would get stale. But we just can't conceive what such a state would be like. From a Buddhist perspective, the fun and growth and discovery you mentioned is just the natural tendency of the mind to constantly seek excitement and new things because it isn't happy with the present moment. That also goes for the way we walk around constantly replaying the past in our minds because the present is boring. Memories from the past, fantasies of the future - the mind will do anything to escape from the present. So learning to enjoy the present is a large part of the practice.

Here is where I diverge from Buddhism, if what you relate is a faithful interpretation of Buddhist principles, and/or if my interpretation of what you are saying is accurate. However, I definitely agree with some of the above.

From my understanding one of the main tenets and goals of Buddhism is to release desire. And yet that would be a desire in itself! Unless the desire to release desire is ascribed specifically to materialism. In which case it would imply a denounciation of physical existence since the basis of our reality is, well, material. And that would further imply, along with the quote from Buddha you supplied above, that earthly existence is a state to move away from, perhaps for the sole reason that it is not pure (lacks bliss), or is somehow a less worthy existence compared to nirvana. (And, I believe that most religions do a great injustice to our earthly reality. Heaven, for instance, is a much nicer place than earth, and wouldn't everyone really rather be there?)

Well, for one, earthly existence exists, period. That is beyond the obvious. And since it does exist then there must be a purpose for it. Is that purpose soley, only, to exit it as hastily as possible? To rise above it? Or is this reality simply another reality created as a means of further expression of who we are? A unique and precious medium of expression that exists no where else? Not only do I believe in the latter explanation but I would reject the former most vehemently.

Another point which I would like to make is that creativity exists, and more specifically that we, as humans, are creative. That, to me, is also beyond the obvious. The impetus for creativity, as I know it to be, is desire. We, as humans, have never-ending desire to create, to express ourselves in as many ways as possible. And I believe this desire to create is so fundamental to who we are that without it we would simply cease to exist.

And so, to my way of thinking fun, growth and discovery is our way of constantly reinventing ourselves in ever surprising fashion in order to more fully understand who and what we are, and importantly as a means to fulfilling ourselves; but not due to a strict dissatisfaction over our present moment. I do believe that there is value in living in the present moment. The present moment is all that exists, is eternal, and it is that point, and the only point, in which we direct our power to create.

The past serves many purposes and I believe is, overall, a tool which can be put to many uses. The future, on the other hand, is the medium we use to project ourselves and our now-moments into. We have imagination. Which is what? The ability to visualize that which does not yet exist, or has not yet been experienced? We possess imagination, obviously, but for what purpose? We live only in the present moment and have the past and future available to us. Why was it designed so? As a misdirection? A trial in our earthly examination?

I do agree, absolutely and whole-heartedly, that the present moment is what is to be enjoyed above all else. For again, this is the only point in which we have our existence.

Also, to my mind there is nothing that can be eradicated. Suffering exists, period. As does everything else. That's not to say that suffering must be experienced. I'd be curious to know how suffering is to be eradicated, or anything else for that matter.

Imagine you walked around barefoot and the ground always hurt your feet. To solve the problem, you wouldn't try to coat the entire world with rubber, you'd buy a pair of rubber sandals for your feet. That's the principle. The suffering isn't out in the world, it's inside the mind. So you train the mind not to suffer from all that goes on around you. But, typically, we are always trying to change the world around us to alleviate our stress and anxiety.

Excellent points, camerata. It's all in our heads; the pain, the suffering, the joy, the happiness, and any other form of human emotion. It's source is not out there in the world at all. I'm not sure how Buddhism specifically trains the mind not to suffer, for instance. From what I have learned, it is a matter of focusing one's attention elsewhere. How that works, in my terms, is not to simply look away from something (and I'll take suffering as an example) which 'produces' suffering. To me, it is the practice of turning one's attention to aspects of an event which not only alleviate the suffering but produce the 'opposite' feeling. Understanding who we are becomes a prerequisite as this allows perception of events as they exist in greater terms, including but also beyond our mortal selves. And, as you mentioned earlier in your post, camerata, that requires not only a great deal of effort but more importantly a great desire. The path exists, has always existed, will continue to exist, and is accessible to all.

And you very beautifully point out, camerata, that people by and large attempt to change the world around them rather than trying to change themselves. Manipulation of the physical environment has it's limitations since it's strictly a manifestation of what's on the inside. To change the outside properly, and with a greater degree of permanence, the inside must be manipulated. The war on drugs, the war on disease, the war on anything, can never be won by trying to manipulate only on the outside. People's ideas need to change. But it appears that changing everybody else rather than one's own self is the way it works. Impossible.

People can only, only change themselves. And when that happens the world, the individual's world, becomes transformed. Fortunately, changing one's own world does not hinge on anyone else changing theirs. Therein lies the beauty and the true justice of the world.

There's a good primer on the net from the BSWA. No one ever said practising Buddhism was easy, though.

I'll definitely check it out, camerata. And thanks for a very excellent post. And, yes, practising Buddhism is not easy. Anyone who would wish to understand this world and who they are is in for a challenge that makes any other challenge pale in comparison. Yet the benefits and the journey are truly remarkable.

for the length of my post. I hope I haven't lost the readership yet. But I'm not quite finished.

Looooooooooooooooooooooong post Tippaporn. Many mixed ideals. Each to our own!

On the UFO thang, I have seen a few. I'm a believer!

If we all adopted these ideals, the world would be a more peaceful plane. Would it not?

The ideals aren't truly mixed, Khall. Not when they're viewed as a whole. But, yes, to each their own. Always.

Agreed, the world would be a much different place. Blame, among other things, would completely disappear. Not that these things would no longer exist; they simply wouldn't be activated any longer. They'd be dormant. But again, the world needn't change for you to experience your own bliss, your own paradise, in the here and now.

________________________________________________________

If you've seen UFO's then your sanity is highly suspect, Khall. I suggest you admit yourself post haste to Bedlum. Artisan may be able to suggest ways in which you can put your life to a fulfilling and purposeful use while simultaneously removing yourself as a menace to normal society.

Your loving bro,

Tippaporn

Here is where I diverge from Buddhism, if what you relate is a faithful interpretation of Buddhist principles, and/or if my interpretation of what you are saying is accurate. However, I definitely agree with some of the above.

You can read these ideas in a number of books by Western monks and nuns. The best one perhaps is The Mind and the Way by Ajahn Sumedho.

From my understanding one of the main tenets and goals of Buddhism is to release desire. And yet that would be a desire in itself!

Right. Obviously you have to have the intention to practise, but at the end of it you have to let go of all desires to reach enlightenment. It's something of a paradox. But Buddhist literature (especially Zen) is full of stories about monks who reached enlightenment when they weren't specifically trying - when they saw a flower or heard a cricket or the Master whacked them on the head with a stick.

And that would further imply, along with the quote from Buddha you supplied above, that earthly existence is a state to move away from, perhaps for the sole reason that it is not pure (lacks bliss), or is somehow a less worthy existence compared to nirvana. (And, I believe that most religions do a great injustice to our earthly reality.)

Well, nirvana isn't some other place. You are still here on Earth, still have the same body, and still see the world around you. It's just that you experience it differently.

Well, for one, earthly existence exists, period. That is beyond the obvious. And since it does exist then there must be a purpose for it.

Why does there have to be a purpose? A purpose implies a creator of that purpose, which takes us back to the idea of a creator god. We may have evolved so that biologically our purpose/drive is to reproduce and pass on our DNA, but how meaningful or satisfying is that? IMO, because we feel the need for a purpose, we have to create one ourselves. But the fact that we feel this need doesn't mean someone already created a purpose for all of us.

Another point which I would like to make is that creativity exists, and more specifically that we, as humans, are creative. That, to me, is also beyond the obvious. The impetus for creativity, as I know it to be, is desire. We, as humans, have never-ending desire to create, to express ourselves in as many ways as possible. And I believe this desire to create is so fundamental to who we are that without it we would simply cease to exist.

Quite possibly. It's clear that creativity is a tool that's important for our survival. We evolved that way. A couple of years ago I read a book called The Mind of God written by a scientist. An interesting point he made was that there is no discernable reason why evolution and natural selection should throw up a series of genius physicists and musicians (like Einstein or Mozart), which implied to him that there was indeed a Higher Purpose behind man's existence.

One of my earliest questions about Buddhism (apparently a common one with Westerners) was that if everyone became enlightened wouldn't there be no procreation and the species would become extinct? I found a nice answer from Ajahn Chah: "Don't worry, there will always be plenty of people to carry on the species." This is it in a nutshell. No one ever said that nirvana was the purpose for all mankind. It's a voluntary thing - for those who need a purpose more meaningful than just trying to stay alive, the eradication of suffering is one that's available.

And so, to my way of thinking fun, growth and discovery is our way of constantly reinventing ourselves in ever surprising fashion in order to more fully understand who and what we are, and importantly as a means to fulfilling ourselves;

But haven't you noticed that we are never truly fulfilled? Even our favourite activities and favourite music become boring after a while. And so we keep on looking for new experiences and fantasizing about the future. From a Buddhist perspective, the replaying of the past (usually bad things) and fantasizing about the future (usually good things) while not being aware of the present is a kind of zombie life. We may have evolved that way, but we don't have to accept it. But this is a personal decision to make.

Personally, I can't accept it. Last Thursday I went to an opera, the first Mozart opera I've ever had the chance to see. Maybe the only chance I'll ever have. In the middle of my favourite aria, the two people behind me started whispering and my mind went off into some fantasy (probably about wringing their necks - I don't remember) and by the time it came back the aria was over. I'd missed half of it because I couldn't stay in the present moment. We all have this experience multiple times each day where our mind pleases itself at our expense. And if we add up all the time we spend in this zombie state, it's a large part of our short life.

This doesn't mean we can't plan ahead or consider problems, but the point is we should be in control instead of our monkey mind. This is what Buddhists call "true freedom."

Why was it designed so? As a misdirection? A trial in our earthly examination?

Was it designed, as opposed to evolving through natural selection?

I'm not sure how Buddhism specifically trains the mind not to suffer, for instance. From what I have learned, it is a matter of focusing one's attention elsewhere. How that works, in my terms, is not to simply look away from something (and I'll take suffering as an example) which 'produces' suffering. To me, it is the practice of turning one's attention to aspects of an event which not only alleviate the suffering but produce the 'opposite' feeling.

There are two kinds of meditation. One is to concentrate on staying in the present moment, usually by focusing on the breath. That's a preparation for the second ("insight" meditation), which is a way of seeing things as they really are. There's no looking away, just looking deeper.

People can only, only change themselves. And when that happens the world, the individual's world, becomes transformed. Fortunately, changing one's own world does not hinge on anyone else changing theirs. Therein lies the beauty and the true justice of the world.

Now you're sounding like a Buddhist.

I will get back to you, camerata, but no time right now.

If you could go back 150,000 years and ask the question to our ancestors "what is the meaning of life?" They would probably answer "To survive, preferably long enough to reproduce".

Pretty much the goal of every living organism on the planet.

Now that we have advanced civilization and don't have to devote every minute of every day to survival, we have the free time to indulge in questions like "what is the meaning of life".

The answer is 'whatever you choose it to be'.

For TRIP-X-CORE.

I have always taken solace in what Epicurus said. To misquote:-

"Death is nothing to us, for when it is here, we are not. When we are here, death is not".

If you could go back 150,000 years and ask the question to our ancestors "what is the meaning of life?" They would probably answer "To survive, preferably long enough to reproduce".

Pretty much the goal of every living organism on the planet.

I doubt they would speak English all that well.

Also, I think if they answered honestly, they would answer the equivalent of "I do not know" although some of them would probably make a big deal out of saying "I do not know" in order to appear as possessing a more well-reasoned and respect-worthy ignorance than their peers.

And it will be the same in 1000 years if mankind is still around by then.

If there was a Creator, I guess it must have thought it would be nice for us to have some things to talk about endlessly, in order to not get completely bored.

Speaking of Nirvana, to some extent I believe the movie The Matrix can illustrate a few Buddhist ideas (although one should not see the entire movie, or series, as describing Buddhism - there are elements of gnosticism and Judaism and rastafarIan thoughts in the story as well).

When Neo starts to see the agents as running lines of computer code instead of as real people, it is like a mind that starts to see the world as it really is instead of as it appears from the limited perspective we are offered when we rely only on the physical senses available in our body.

If you could go back 150,000 years and ask the question to our ancestors "what is the meaning of life?" They would probably answer "To survive, preferably long enough to reproduce".

Pretty much the goal of every living organism on the planet.

I doubt they would speak English all that well.

Also, I think if they answered honestly, they would answer the equivalent of "I do not know" although some of them would probably make a big deal out of saying "I do not know" in order to appear as possessing a more well-reasoned and respect-worthy ignorance than their peers.

Errrrm, of course they wouldn't speak English, isn't that self evident?

If they were constantly struggling to survive, maybe thay would tell you so?

I stand by my conclusion.

It was intended as a joke... Sorry if you did not see it that way.

The ideals aren't truly mixed, Khall. Not when they're viewed as a whole. But, yes, to each their own. Always.

Agreed, the world would be a much different place. Blame, among other things, would completely disappear. Not that these things would no longer exist; they simply wouldn't be activated any longer. They'd be dormant. But again, the world needn't change for you to experience your own bliss, your own paradise, in the here and now.

________________________________________________________

If you've seen UFO's then your sanity is highly suspect, Khall. I suggest you admit yourself post haste to Bedlum. Artisan may be able to suggest ways in which you can put your life to a fulfilling and purposeful use while simultaneously removing yourself as a menace to normal society.

Your loving bro,

Tippaporn

You poor, poor man..... our mother will disagree entirely!!!! Why do you persist in denying our HERITAGE?

The ideals aren't truly mixed, Khall. Not when they're viewed as a whole. But, yes, to each their own. Always.

Agreed, the world would be a much different place. Blame, among other things, would completely disappear. Not that these things would no longer exist; they simply wouldn't be activated any longer. They'd be dormant. But again, the world needn't change for you to experience your own bliss, your own paradise, in the here and now.

________________________________________________________

If you've seen UFO's then your sanity is highly suspect, Khall. I suggest you admit yourself post haste to Bedlum. Artisan may be able to suggest ways in which you can put your life to a fulfilling and purposeful use while simultaneously removing yourself as a menace to normal society.

Your loving bro,

Tippaporn

You poor, poor man..... our mother will disagree entirely!!!! Why do you persist in denying our HERITAGE?

It's true; I came from up above, I'm an alien, but I didn't get here in a UFO.

It's true; I came from up above, I'm an alien, but I didn't get here in a UFO.

What's the matter, no jobs on Mars? So, you're an illegal alien eh? If we rub your skin will you turn green?

It's true; I came from up above, I'm an alien, but I didn't get here in a UFO.

What's the matter, no jobs on Mars? So, you're an illegal alien eh? If we rub your skin will you turn green?

That's a common misconception that Hollywood started. We're paisley.

It's true; I came from up above, I'm an alien, but I didn't get here in a UFO.

What's the matter, no jobs on Mars? So, you're an illegal alien eh? If we rub your skin will you turn green?

That's a common misconception that Hollywood started. We're paisley.

Timothy Leary was right!

If you could go back 150,000 years and ask the question to our ancestors "what is the meaning of life?" They would probably answer "To survive, preferably long enough to reproduce".

Pretty much the goal of every living organism on the planet.

Spot on. The 'meaning of life' hasn't changed, only the amount of free time we have to search for it, feeling lonely, in need of 'meaning' and imaginary friends and purpose.

We live, we reproduce we die. Thats why the reproduction bit is so big.

We get bored. We use our 'intelligence' to come up with half-baked religious philosophies, we make war. But the meaning of life? Sex.

But the meaning of life? Sex.

................and not forgetting the drugs and the rock and roll !!

It's true; I came from up above, I'm an alien, but I didn't get here in a UFO.

What's the matter, no jobs on Mars? So, you're an illegal alien eh? If we rub your skin will you turn green?

That's a common misconception that Hollywood started. We're paisley.

Timothy Leary was right!

He should be . . . he was my bud.

But the meaning of life? Sex.

................and not forgetting the drugs and the rock and roll !!

Seems I have forgotten about the drugs. Oh wait, flashback - now I remember.

But the meaning of life? Sex.

................and not forgetting the drugs and the rock and roll !!

Seems I have forgotten about the drugs. Oh wait, flashback - now I remember.

Whaddya think got me started on all this deep <deleted> in the first place??? I left "home" a few times but am not sure 'til this day whether all of me ever made it back.

Whaddya think got me started on all this deep <deleted> in the first place??? I left "home" a few times but am not sure 'til this day whether all of me ever made it back.

Nice try Tippaporn.

I left "home" a few times but am not sure 'til this day whether all of me ever made it back.

Maybe all of you didn't leave!

Timothy Leary was right!

He should be . . . he was my bud.

Are you really Richard Alpert?

What's It All About?

1. During an hour's swimming at a municipal pool you will ingest 1/12 liter of urine.

2. In an average day your hands will have come into indirect contact with 15 penises (touching door handles etc.)

3. An average person's yearly fast food intake will contain 12 pubic hairs.

4. In a year you will have swallowed 14 insects - while you slept! Annually you will shake hands with 11 women who have recently masturbated and failed to wash their hands.

5. Annually you will shake hands with 6 men who have recently masturbated and failed to wash their hands.

6. In a lifetime 22 workmen will have examined the contents of your dirty linen basket.

7. At an average wedding reception you have a 1/100 chance of getting a cold sore from one of the guests.

8. Daily you will breath in 1 liter of other peoples' anal gases.

HAVE A GREAT DAY... and wash your hands

What's It All About?

1. During an hour's swimming at a municipal pool you will ingest 1/12 liter of urine.

2. In an average day your hands will have come into indirect contact with 15 penises (touching door handles etc.)

3. An average person's yearly fast food intake will contain 12 pubic hairs.

4. In a year you will have swallowed 14 insects - while you slept! Annually you will shake hands with 11 women who have recently masturbated and failed to wash their hands.

5. Annually you will shake hands with 6 men who have recently masturbated and failed to wash their hands.

6. In a lifetime 22 workmen will have examined the contents of your dirty linen basket.

7. At an average wedding reception you have a 1/100 chance of getting a cold sore from one of the guests.

8. Daily you will breath in 1 liter of other peoples' anal gases.

HAVE A GREAT DAY... and wash your hands

Hey, Boon, maybe you should go back to politics?

What's It All About?

1. During an hour's swimming at a municipal pool you will ingest 1/12 liter of urine.

2. In an average day your hands will have come into indirect contact with 15 penises (touching door handles etc.)

3. An average person's yearly fast food intake will contain 12 pubic hairs.

4. In a year you will have swallowed 14 insects - while you slept! Annually you will shake hands with 11 women who have recently masturbated and failed to wash their hands.

5. Annually you will shake hands with 6 men who have recently masturbated and failed to wash their hands.

6. In a lifetime 22 workmen will have examined the contents of your dirty linen basket.

7. At an average wedding reception you have a 1/100 chance of getting a cold sore from one of the guests.

8. Daily you will breath in 1 liter of other peoples' anal gases.

HAVE A GREAT DAY... and wash your hands

4 and 5 don't make sense!!!

Annually you will shake hands with 11 women who have recently masturbated and failed to wash their hands.

he he.. fantastic...

totster

What's It All About?

1. During an hour's swimming at a municipal pool you will ingest 1/12 liter of urine.

2. In an average day your hands will have come into indirect contact with 15 penises (touching door handles etc.)

3. An average person's yearly fast food intake will contain 12 pubic hairs.

4. In a year you will have swallowed 14 insects - while you slept! Annually you will shake hands with 11 women who have recently masturbated and failed to wash their hands.

5. Annually you will shake hands with 6 men who have recently masturbated and failed to wash their hands.

6. In a lifetime 22 workmen will have examined the contents of your dirty linen basket.

7. At an average wedding reception you have a 1/100 chance of getting a cold sore from one of the guests.

8. Daily you will breath in 1 liter of other peoples' anal gases.

HAVE A GREAT DAY... and wash your hands

So...Jacko had it about right then...eh?

Here's an interesting question that I'd like to pose. How much of your life do you think you have control over? It's obvious to most that you do have a certain amount of control over your life. But to what extent? And if you believe that you do not have control in some ways then who's pulling your strings? Are you part creator, part puppet?