Let me rethink what I had been telling Bops. Perhaps some factors truly are uncontrollable.

You learn quickly grasshopper.

It's a joke, Bops . . . a joke!

And I wasn't joking?

To be honest, not sure whether you were being serious or funny. Could be taken either way. I assumed you were continuing to be serious about the discussion. Mai pen rai.

People can't tell when they are speaking to me either.

No worries I am used to it.

Let me rethink what I had been telling Bops. Perhaps some factors truly are uncontrollable.

You learn quickly grasshopper.

It's a joke, Bops . . . a joke!

And I wasn't joking?

To be honest, not sure whether you were being serious or funny. Could be taken either way. I assumed you were continuing to be serious about the discussion. Mai pen rai.

People can't tell when they are speaking to me either.

No worries I am used to it.

To coin a unique phrase: Why don't the two of you get a room?

Let me rethink what I had been telling Bops. Perhaps some factors truly are uncontrollable.

You learn quickly grasshopper.

It's a joke, Bops . . . a joke!

And I wasn't joking?

To be honest, not sure whether you were being serious or funny. Could be taken either way. I assumed you were continuing to be serious about the discussion. Mai pen rai.

People can't tell when they are speaking to me either.

No worries I am used to it.

To coin a unique phrase: Why don't the two of you get a room?

Three is merrier, OlRedEyes . . .

Let me rethink what I had been telling Bops. Perhaps some factors truly are uncontrollable.

You learn quickly grasshopper.

It's a joke, Bops . . . a joke!

And I wasn't joking?

To be honest, not sure whether you were being serious or funny. Could be taken either way. I assumed you were continuing to be serious about the discussion. Mai pen rai.

People can't tell when they are speaking to me either.

No worries I am used to it.

To coin a unique phrase: Why don't the two of you get a room?

Three is merrier, OlRedEyes . . .

You have an 'interesting' mind

where has all the philosophy gone?

where has all the philosophy gone?

What, three people in a room isn't philosophical enough for ya?

where has all the philosophy gone?

What, three people in a room isn't philosophical enough for ya?

We can make it four . . .

Seriously, not too many among the serious here. Bops and I had a good thing going but no one else cared to jump in. I thought more people would comment on how much control they thought they had over their lives. Maybe they're all still thinking about it. It is a deep question, after all.

where has all the philosophy gone?

What, three people in a room isn't philosophical enough for ya?

We can make it four . . .

Seriously, not too many among the serious here. Bops and I had a good thing going but no one else cared to jump in. I thought more people would comment on how much control they thought they had over their lives. Maybe they're all still thinking about it. It is a deep question, after all.

Not as deep as one hand clapping, but hey, we're getting there.

This can be tied into freewill and whether or not we believe we have such a thing. Once again I would say no (in degrees) for you have to live with the commands that your physical being makes on you.

We do have absolute free will regarding our thoughts. Nobody can think for us nor can we think for another. Now what if our thoughts manifest?

We do have absolute free will regarding our thoughts. Nobody can think for us nor can we think for another. Now what if our thoughts manifest?

Many of our thoughts do manifest! Thankfully not all of our thoughts do! Can you imagine what that would be like?

BTW I have really being enjoying this thread. Do you think it has dealt with pre-destination and fore-ordaination?

We do have absolute free will regarding our thoughts. Nobody can think for us nor can we think for another. Now what if our thoughts manifest?

Many of our thoughts do manifest! Thankfully not all of our thoughts do! Can you imagine what that would be like?

BTW I have really being enjoying this thread. Do you think it has dealt with pre-destination and fore-ordaination?

Or curcimcision?

We do have absolute free will regarding our thoughts. Nobody can think for us nor can we think for another. Now what if our thoughts manifest?

Many of our thoughts do manifest! Thankfully not all of our thoughts do! Can you imagine what that would be like?

BTW I have really being enjoying this thread. Do you think it has dealt with pre-destination and fore-ordaination?

I think so. The issue of having control or not over your life is pretty much the same thing. For if you don't have control somthing else does and perhaps that somthing has a plan. I guess I should say what you are asking is just an extension of what we are talking about.

We do have absolute free will regarding our thoughts. Nobody can think for us nor can we think for another. Now what if our thoughts manifest?

Many of our thoughts do manifest! Thankfully not all of our thoughts do! Can you imagine what that would be like?

BTW I have really being enjoying this thread. Do you think it has dealt with pre-destination and fore-ordaination?

Actually, camerata and I have taken this topic to PM'ing. After his last post, and my reply to it, the length and depth exceeded what I thought would interest the general Bedlam audience. I actually used more quote/end quote commands than the system would allow. If you're interested maybe I should reprint them here. While I was hoping that the general audience would take more of an interest in discussing ideas about the life they find themselves in I feel that this thread is quickly drying up. So, what the heck, maybe I'll post them.

Regarding pre-destination and fore-ordination I think these things don't really exist. At least not from what I have learnt. I would say that life is comprised of endless choices. In that sense we're always at a junction point. We can change direction at any time we choose while constantly traveling on a sort of cosmic web of probabilities. Given that analogy then destiny doesn't work since it would imply that we could not make choices that would result in a different outcome.

I guess we could argue about the extent of free will that we have, but as I said we do have ultimate free will to choose our thoughts. The ability to choose our thoughts is what I believe to be the key to creating what we want or what we don't want. But as you mentioned, suegha, not all thoughts are manifest; and certainly not instantaneously. Whether they do or not, and which ones will manifest and which won't I think has to do with other factors. Emotions, imagination, intention, intensity of focus, etc. I believe it's a combination of these other factors in the proper proportions.

Dreams, on the other hand, are instant manifestations. I've noticed in my dreams that as soon as I think a thought it happens. Every so often I fly in my dreams and it's quite a lucid experience. The thrill of it seems to engage more of my normal consciousness. Often I am very aware of what I'm doing when I have these dreams and I've played with controling my flight. Think up and I immediately go up. And the reverse obviously applies, also. Great fun, BTW, for those who have never recalled flying. <deleted> blast, as far as I'm concerned.

Interesting post Tip. However, I think we get into troubled thoughts when we insist on personalising choices and enless probabilities.

I agree we all have personal choices and everything has an effect on everthing else. Lets stop personalising it for a moment and consider the existance of an omnipotent God who knows the begining from the end. We, therefore, are just fulfilling his will by our random (seeming) life choices and actions.

Therefore what he 'fore-knows' he 'pre-destinates'.

Actually, camerata and I have taken this topic to PM'ing. After his last post, and my reply to it, the length and depth exceeded what I thought would interest the general Bedlam audience. I actually used more quote/end quote commands than the system would allow. If you're interested maybe I should reprint them here. While I was hoping that the general audience would take more of an interest in discussing ideas about the life they find themselves in I feel that this thread is quickly drying up. So, what the heck, maybe I'll post them.

It's probably not a good idea to post private messages in a public forum, and I think we already know there isn't much interest in the finer points of this thread.

Regarding pre-destination and fore-ordination I think these things don't really exist. At least not from what I have learnt. I would say that life is comprised of endless choices. In that sense we're always at a junction point. We can change direction at any time we choose while constantly traveling on a sort of cosmic web of probabilities. Given that analogy then destiny doesn't work since it would imply that we could not make choices that would result in a different outcome.

One rather depressing notion is that everything we do is pre-determined by all the zillions of factors in our genetic makeup, our experience since birth and our resulting personality (and our karma if we are Buddhist). Every decision we ever make had to be made that way because of our past. We can randomize the outcome of a decision by tossing a coin, but the fact that we decided to toss a coin was pre-determined. So the only free-will we have is to randomize a decision.

Actually, camerata and I have taken this topic to PM'ing. After his last post, and my reply to it, the length and depth exceeded what I thought would interest the general Bedlam audience. I actually used more quote/end quote commands than the system would allow. If you're interested maybe I should reprint them here. While I was hoping that the general audience would take more of an interest in discussing ideas about the life they find themselves in I feel that this thread is quickly drying up. So, what the heck, maybe I'll post them.

It's probably not a good idea to post private messages in a public forum, and I think we already know there isn't much interest in the finer points of this thread.

Regarding pre-destination and fore-ordination I think these things don't really exist. At least not from what I have learnt. I would say that life is comprised of endless choices. In that sense we're always at a junction point. We can change direction at any time we choose while constantly traveling on a sort of cosmic web of probabilities. Given that analogy then destiny doesn't work since it would imply that we could not make choices that would result in a different outcome.

One rather depressing notion is that everything we do is pre-determined by all the zillions of factors in our genetic makeup, our experience since birth and our resulting personality (and our karma if we are Buddhist). Every decision we ever make had to be made that way because of our past. We can randomize the outcome of a decision by tossing a coin, but the fact that we decided to toss a coin was pre-determined. So the only free-will we have is to randomize a decision.

Another cracking post. When you think about it too much your head starts to hurt. I do however, believe in pre-destination, that all things are pre-determined. So that toss of a coin that makes me go left rather than right is only fulfilling that which is already pre-determined. Interesting stuff though!

Since no one can serve up definitive proof of what life is about then I choose at least to believe in theories that are life-giving rather than concepts about life, God, whatever that would make me cringe. Predestiny, while the concept sounds revolting to me, really doesn't make much sense, nor is there much evidence supporting it. It absolutely negates the notion of free will. Chain any man and he'll be living the rest of his days trying to figure out how he can be free again. That's all you need to realize to understand that destiny is a distorted idea of how this system works. Doesn't matter to me whether it's an uncaring universe that has us pre-programmed through gentics or whter it's a God who moves us about like chess pieces on a cosmic gaming board. Either way, my reaction is .

The Devil made me do it!

The Devil made me do it!

More like the Devil spawned you.

One rather depressing notion is that everything we do is pre-determined by all the zillions of factors in our genetic makeup, our experience since birth and our resulting personality (and our karma if we are Buddhist). Every decision we ever make had to be made that way because of our past. We can randomize the outcome of a decision by tossing a coin, but the fact that we decided to toss a coin was pre-determined. So the only free-will we have is to randomize a decision.

Another cracking post. When you think about it too much your head starts to hurt. I do however, believe in pre-destination, that all things are pre-determined. So that toss of a coin that makes me go left rather than right is only fulfilling that which is already pre-determined. Interesting stuff though!

As you say, even the result of the coin-toss is predetermined by all the events in the cosmos before it. But after thinking about this for a while, I think the key point is our own perspective. From our own point of view, each decision is our own and (should be) in accordance with what we feel is best for us, so it doesn't matter much if we were always destined to make that particular decision.

From the Buddhist perspective, decisions made that are not in our best interests or not what we really want (due to anger, ego, intoxication, desire, etc at the time of the decision) are the real problem. In those cases, we've truly lost our "free will." The solution is to train the mind so it can make decisions uninfluenced by emotion or instinct - in other words, to increase the ability to exercise free will.

One rather depressing notion is that everything we do is pre-determined by all the zillions of factors in our genetic makeup, our experience since birth and our resulting personality (and our karma if we are Buddhist). Every decision we ever make had to be made that way because of our past. We can randomize the outcome of a decision by tossing a coin, but the fact that we decided to toss a coin was pre-determined. So the only free-will we have is to randomize a decision.

Another cracking post. When you think about it too much your head starts to hurt. I do however, believe in pre-destination, that all things are pre-determined. So that toss of a coin that makes me go left rather than right is only fulfilling that which is already pre-determined. Interesting stuff though!

As you say, even the result of the coin-toss is predetermined by all the events in the cosmos before it. But after thinking about this for a while, I think the key point is our own perspective. From our own point of view, each decision is our own and (should be) in accordance with what we feel is best for us, so it doesn't matter much if we were always destined to make that particular decision.

From the Buddhist perspective, decisions made that are not in our best interests or not what we really want (due to anger, ego, intoxication, desire, etc at the time of the decision) are the real problem. In those cases, we've truly lost our "free will." The solution is to train the mind so it can make decisions uninfluenced by emotion or instinct - in other words, to increase the ability to exercise free will.

I'd still prefer to think of choices as though we were on a web of probabilities. In that way you would be completely free wheeling. There's another concept that would throw a monkey wrench into the works of destiny - this isn't the only world.

In other words (worlds), let's assume you have three choices. You would actualize one of those probable choices, making that turn in the road your official reality. And yet the other probable choices would be experienced by other aspects of you as well. This is based on the idea that we there is much more to us than what we can presently perceive and that there are no limits to creativity. I'd say who we are is so vast as to be infinite. Again, infinity is a concept that is hard to grasp, as well as the existence of any other world besides our familiar one.

Destiny means that you are locked in on a course that is unalterable. Sort of like traveling on train tracks that someone has laid out for you. I'd rather be on foot and be able to go in any direction I want. More fun, don't you think? Besides, what's the point of living a life that is predetermined down to the last nuance. Can anyone then explain the logic of that?

I'd still prefer to think of choices as though we were on a web of probabilities. In that way you would be completely free wheeling. There's another concept that would throw a monkey wrench into the works of destiny - this isn't the only world.

Maybe I should have used the word "inevitable." Predestined and predetermined seem to suggest some kind of Cosmic Chessplayer moving us around like pawns. All I'm saying is our actions are inevitable because of a chain of cause-and-effect events reaching back to the beginning of the universe. It doesn't make any difference if there are multiple worlds or dimensions, as long as they all originated from a single event at the beginning of our universe.

In other words (worlds), let's assume you have three choices. You would actualize one of those probable choices, making that turn in the road your official reality. And yet the other probable choices would be experienced by other aspects of you as well. This is based on the idea that we there is much more to us than what we can presently perceive and that there are no limits to creativity. I'd say who we are is so vast as to be infinite. Again, infinity is a concept that is hard to grasp, as well as the existence of any other world besides our familiar one.

But it's hard to imagine a scenario in which humans developed like icebergs, perceiving only 10% of their existence, with 90% left unseen. And if this was by design, there must be some entity involved. Why would such an entity set things up that way and take such an interest in us humans? It sounds rather human-centric to me - mankind at the centre of some vast, yet-to-be-discovered multidimensional reality. I have the same problem with Christianity and the way we were placed at the centre of the universe with a unique role to play.

Destiny means that you are locked in on a course that is unalterable. Sort of like traveling on train tracks that someone has laid out for you. I'd rather be on foot and be able to go in any direction I want. More fun, don't you think? Besides, what's the point of living a life that is predetermined down to the last nuance. Can anyone then explain the logic of that?

Well, the logic is simple: A led to B, B led to C, and so on. But no one designed it that way. You can go in any direction you want, but you were always going to choose that direction. Subjectively, though, it doesn't matter because you always feel like you are determining your own course of action.

Not having control is a big issue for us humans. That's why I think the idea of randomizing a course of action by tossing a coin is pretty frightening. And sometimes I feel like living in LOS is like tossing a coin every day...

Maybe I should have used the word "inevitable." Predestined and predetermined seem to suggest some kind of Cosmic Chessplayer moving us around like pawns. All I'm saying is our actions are inevitable because of a chain of cause-and-effect events reaching back to the beginning of the universe. It doesn't make any difference if there are multiple worlds or dimensions, as long as they all originated from a single event at the beginning of our universe.

Granted, that works only if time exists in all realities. If time is an aspect of the way we perceive the ever present "now" moment then there are no such things as beginnings or endings. I'm inclined to believe in the spacious present. Even still, inevitability doesn't seem to me to be any different than predestiny. The fact remains that in either system you are denied choices. If you are denied choices then you are denied control. If you are denied control then you are denied free will. If you are denied free will then your life is not you own. If your life is not your own then . . . whose is it?

But it's hard to imagine a scenario in which humans developed like icebergs, perceiving only 10% of their existence, with 90% left unseen. And if this was by design, there must be some entity involved. Why would such an entity set things up that way and take such an interest in us humans? It sounds rather human-centric to me - mankind at the centre of some vast, yet-to-be-discovered multidimensional reality. I have the same problem with Christianity and the way we were placed at the centre of the universe with a unique role to play.

I've often wondered why, after thousands upon thousands of years, no one can say with absolute certainty what exists beyond this world. After all of this time there are a plethora of theories as to the nature of existence and it seems that mankind as a whole is still absolutely clueless. Strange, isn't it?

Do we reincarnate? Is this life the one and only? Is this world the one and only. Does a God exist or not? Is there only one God? Do we survive death? Have we existed before birth? Why is it that these questions seem to be unanswerable? We're pretty much left to our beliefs regarding these questions, no one being able to provide proof one way or the other.

In the meanwhile, any system of belief will quite naturally spin it's own highly fascinating stories about who we are and how everything works. Theories one and all. Choose your belief system and go with it.

But I do believe that these questions have answers. And that we are not deprived access to them. But let's face it, more than likely they're not going to be answers that you can hold in your physical hands to have someone else see them with their physical eyes.

Well, the logic is simple: A led to B, B led to C, and so on. But no one designed it that way. You can go in any direction you want, but you were always going to choose that direction. Subjectively, though, it doesn't matter because you always feel like you are determining your own course of action.

Yes, there's logic to that explanation. Every theory is based on logic. The thing to keep in mind is that any theory is developed with only a certain amount of 'facts.' And many of these so-called 'facts' are merely best guessed assumptions. Assumed to the extent that they are no longer assumptions but literally believed as 'fact.' Once someone spends a lifetime constructing this house of cards it becomes unsettling indeed to have someone else come along and blow it all down.

Not having control is a big issue for us humans. That's why I think the idea of randomizing a course of action by tossing a coin is pretty frightening. And sometimes I feel like living in LOS is like tossing a coin every day...

Camerata, do you remember Castenada's story about helping a friend of his take two cats to the vet to have them put down and how Don Juan used that story to explain the concept of 'having to believe?' That one hit me like a ton of bricks. You have to believe that you have control. What else is there????????????

Me me me me me, self self self self!!!

Okay, forget about the terminology of 'pre-determined' or whatever and see if you can at least get your head around an omnipotent God.

Then if you get past that 'hurdle' ask yourself if this God exists who knows the begining from the end and the outcome of everything, he then knows how my life will start, what will happen to it and what it will become and how it will end.

Now you can say everything that will happen to me is 'pre-known' (i'm trying to find an expression that doesn't jar!) So it in no way inhibits my free will or choices, I can still choose to reply to this topic or I could delete my words, log off and go and have a beer. Which I will in a few mins anyway!

If you are denied control then you are denied free will. If you are denied free will then your life is not you own. If your life is not your own then . . . whose is it?

Well, as I said before, I don't think "inevitable action" means we are denied choices at any given moment. But if our life is our own, how come we can't control it? Could you, say, not get upset for a year, not get sick, not ever get old, not die? We can't even control our own body. We have choices over the mundane stuff, like what TV show to watch or what to have for dinner, but most of our choices are guided by animal instincts anyway. Have you ever criticized someone and regretted it later? If you were in control at the time, why did you do it? Was it really you who chose to say those things or mainly a bunch of hormones and chemicals sloshing around in your brain?

I think where we really get some meaningful control is in the big life-changing decisions that we tend to think over for a long time and look at every which way - chucking in the job to travel round the world, changing career, emigrating, getting married, etc.

I've often wondered why, after thousands upon thousands of years, no one can say with absolute certainty what exists beyond this world. After all of this time there are a plethora of theories as to the nature of existence and it seems that mankind as a whole is still absolutely clueless. Strange, isn't it?

Considering we were monkeys not that long ago, I don't think we're doing too bad in figuring things out.

Camerata, do you remember Castenada's story about helping a friend of his take two cats to the vet to have them put down and how Don Juan used that story to explain the concept of 'having to believe?' That one hit me like a ton of bricks. You have to believe that you have control. What else is there????????????

If it's the story where one of the fat domesticated cats suddenly regains its "cat-spirit" and escapes, I remember it but not the explanation. I remember that episode because at the critical point in its life the cat made the right decision and made a big effort to carry it out.

Now you can say everything that will happen to me is 'pre-known' (i'm trying to find an expression that doesn't jar!) So it in no way inhibits my free will or choices, I can still choose to reply to this topic or I could delete my words, log off and go and have a beer.

Agree totally. What I'm saying is that if there had been someone with a cosmic computer (that could extrapolate cause and effect for everything down to the sub-atomic level) at the beginning of the universe, he would pre-know all our actions. But it wouldn't affect our freedom to make any choice at any given time.

Me me me me me, self self self self!!!

Okay, forget about the terminology of 'pre-determined' or whatever and see if you can at least get your head around an omnipotent God.

Then if you get past that 'hurdle' ask yourself if this God exists who knows the begining from the end and the outcome of everything, he then knows how my life will start, what will happen to it and what it will become and how it will end.

Now you can say everything that will happen to me is 'pre-known' (i'm trying to find an expression that doesn't jar!) So it in no way inhibits my free will or choices, I can still choose to reply to this topic or I could delete my words, log off and go and have a beer. Which I will in a few mins anyway!

Again, I believe in the spacious present; time does not exist as such and therefore there are no begininngs or endings - simply constant expansion. Without continual expansion all that is would be finished and done with, in which case, yeah, it would be possible for someone/something to know it all. As long is there is new and fresh creation I don't believe that all can be known.

What's the fun in knowing it all anyway? Wouldn't that be the ultimate state of boredom? If you played a game of chess knowing that you will win each and every game? Knowing how everything will 'end?' Where's the challenge? What becomes of impetus?

Just my interpretation thus far of everything I have learnt, which is subject to change given new insights.

Good point about gaining new insights. We should all remain open to growth - spiritual growth that is...