Staff caught stealing, what is the law regarding the wages? Also law about unpaid trial

[lemoncake]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

So you do not have any related experience or knowledge? but bored so felt the need to troll in

Do you have experience speaking with labor department?i am guessing the answer is a no

I have advised you to go to the Labour dept, that is not trolling that is advice

My other points were about your downright rudeness, a view that seems to be shared by others on here

Did i ask you " where i should ask"? It did not cross your mind that i am well aware of labor department?

I will ask you again, have you dealt with labor department?

[kurnell]

My employee was caught stealing 10,000 baht from our company and the labour dept advised us to pay him his full severance pay upon termination.

[darrendsd]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

So you do not have any related experience or knowledge? but bored so felt the need to troll in

Do you have experience speaking with labor department?i am guessing the answer is a no

I have advised you to go to the Labour dept, that is not trolling that is advice

My other points were about your downright rudeness, a view that seems to be shared by others on here

Did i ask you " where i should ask"? It did not cross your mind that i am well aware of labor department?

I will ask you again, have you dealt with labor department?

No I haven't but you are a Employer who employs Employees

You are asking a question that the Labour dept will know the answer to

Isn't it obvious who will know the answer to your question?

You have already made your mind up that you don't want to pay this person and are just waiting for someone to come along and say words to the effect of "No you don't need to pay them" all other answers you are just dismissing as you don't want to hear them

Isn't it also obvious that you need to pay them and then take the stealing issue up as a separate matter? Stealing is a Police matter and is not for you to decide what justice you can meet out wether that be loss of pay or something else

If you are "well aware" of the Labour dept then go, the time you have wasted on here being rude to everyone who tries to help you could have been and got back and had the answer to your question.

[harrry]

Remember accusations of stealing can be defamation. I would make sure I had proof before making them and probably would not even then.

[keith101]

if you dont want our answers dont bl###y ask

[LuckyLew]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

So you do not have any related experience or knowledge? but bored so felt the need to troll in

Do you have experience speaking with labor department?i am guessing the answer is a no

Being rude does not seem to be working for you

Go to labour department

And yes know the answer but will not provide it as you seem unwilling to listen to others

But judging from the way you right people off I can guess why the would steal from you

[rayongchelsea]

Theft is pandemic here.

I have been confronted with it.

Pay them off..

Put in better controls and procedures ( harder said and done).

Let it go...but threaten to report to the police..so it's an easy exit..

I have a lot of sympathy for you. Many on here will have no experience of it and come out with these silly platitudes..

I have been super frustrated with this issue..you want to make people's lives at work happy and then they think your a soft touch..

[DonaldBattles]

If you don't want to get hurt or have your building burned down pay these people off and politely let them go pay what ever you have to to satisfy the labor department.

I have never had an employee who was given a chance did not steal from me. This is 30 years experience.

[DiamondKing]

Minimum wage is rigidly enforced by the labour department.

You must pay it for every day an employee works, no matter what reason you have not to pay it.

Theoretically you could deduct the value of any item you could prove they 'stole and kept' from their wages.

As an aside.

You want to keep a Thai person's wages for 4 days they worked, what's wrong with you?

Its a fkin thief why not

[mrtoad]

Yes, theft is pandemic here. If it's not nailed down, it will go walkabout - and it's not just the rank and file workers that are guilty of this - often the worst culprits are managers. In particular I have found the level of corruption and dishonesty within the hotel sector (from my experience) to be entrenched - skimming, stealing, skiving seem to be a qualification. So you really need to get a grip of how you manage these staff and make them accountable.

Get a copy in English of The Labour Protection Act 1998

The OP needs to really look at the way he is managing his staff, and get a very detailed Company Rules and Regulations handbook printed - he says his is two pages, well from experience ours is around 72 pages. Your staff are your gretest asset, and can also be your most problematic - get detailed and clear contracts in place, make sure your Rules and Regulation of Work are detailed and clear , you can get Labour office to check (again though you need to make sure that you have a good relationship with them). Make sure your security is tightened up - bag checks, and only certain exits for staff when they leave, cameras if you can in specific areas.

With regards to with-holding monies , you really need to check the terms and conditions that you have employed the staff under - and if you have conditions whereby loss of property / theft etc means that the person is responsible for reimbursement. Sometimes, you have to be tough otherwise staff will think they can get away with it. All in all seems like it's a problem you've had before, so look at ways of preventing it / reducing it.

[thaidel48]

Minimum wage is rigidly enforced by the labour department.

You must pay it for every day an employee works, no matter what reason you have not to pay it.

Theoretically you could deduct the value of any item you could prove they 'stole and kept' from their wages.

As an aside.

You want to keep a Thai person's wages for 4 days they worked, what's wrong with you?

Rigidly enforced ?? My G/f's sister was looking for a job last month and not one offered the minimum wage.

The problem of enforcing it is impossible because of the huge black economy here in Thailand, which is undoubtably larger than anyone fully realises or maybe they do, but it suites the powers that be because it directly benefits them .

[chiman]

1. Criminal Activity and Paying Salary are two separate issues that you can not combine. If someone goes to work for you, you must pay them as per Thai labor laws. You can easily find details about Thai labor law on google. Make sure you read it in detail and educate yourself. I also recommend you find a solid HR attorney who manages all your hiring and firing. You should take a deposit from anyone who handles cash. So to answer you question, you must pay your staff for days worked, even if they stole from you. If not, then that person has the right to go see their local labor officer and they can pursue a case against you. The labor officer will tell you that you must pay, and can pursue in the criminal court about the theft.

2. If someone stole from you, and you have it on CCTV, you can go to your local police department and see what they say. I suggest you make a example of someone so that your other staff know you mean business.

[cobra1]

Give them their 4 days salary ,then cut their hands off 4 stealing just like in some Muslim countries any problem just say to labour department they took from you so you need some new hands don't forget to bring some donuts with you 4 the staff

[Naroge]

I don't' understand why you need to ask these questions as the answers are ready available in the labor law, of which I believe you (or your HR) have a copy so no need to copy it here.

In Thailand, as in most country's I believe, you have to pay for days already worked. If your company specific agreement say something else I believe it is illegal.

And a probation period without pay is just simply illegal.

[Kilgore Trout]

Slave labour??? No wages??

If you are the employer then you have the right to recruit and dismiss who you choose, of course I understand that you must protect your business and company interests so anyone who dips there hand and is caught red handed should be dealt with and and disciplined, but regardless of thai employment regulations see common sense and pay people a fair days wage for a fair ( and honest ) days work.

Obviously the days work was none too honest, was it?

My advise; tell the person to piss off with no wages or you will press charges, as is your right

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[MegaRanter]

What do you do when you catch a thief?

Call the popo, the 5 0, your personal enforcer, your parish priest, or just beat the shit out out him.

[Andre0720]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

Here is one office that seems to be an authority on this subject, and perhaps lawyers should take note...

This is from Issues and Answers submitted to the Phuket Gazette. You could submit your specifics. it takes some weeks to get a reply, and firstly on printed version of the Gazette. So phoning the office would be preferable, since the phone number of the office is indicated below.

Working overtime in Phuket

A female Thai friend works in a large restaurant owned by Swiss people. The employment rule at the restaurant is that if an employee does not work a 12-hour shift on each day of work, the employee is not entitled to the 6,000-baht monthly salary. The employee gets no salary at all. Is that legal under the employment law of Thailand?

Andy, Chalong. Friday, April 19, 2013 11:38:54 AM “It is illegal for an employee to not be paid at all for work they have done.

Under Thai labor law, a working day is eight hours, not 12. If an employee works less than eight hours on any day during the month, the employer must still pay the employee for the hours worked on that day.

The amount paid is calculated by dividing the total monthly salary by the total number of hours worked each month by employee. This is the employee’s hourly rate. The hours worked on the “short day” must be paid according to this hourly rate.

If your friend is working more than eight hours, the employer must pay her overtime.

Please tell your friend to see us about filing a complaint against her former employer. It sounds like she has been taken advantage of.If we determine that she wasn’t paid for overtime work, we can demand that the overtime be paid, in addition to 15% interest per year on the unpaid salary.

You can also let your friend know that employees must be given a one-hour break in an eight-hour working day, and the employee must have at least one day off each week.

The Phuket Provincial Labour Protection and Welfare Office can be reached at 076-211995 or 076-220760. We are open Monday to Friday, 8am to 5pm

[winstonc]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

So you do not have any related experience or knowledge? but bored so felt the need to troll in

Do you have experience speaking with labor department?i am guessing the answer is a no

Being rude does not seem to be working for you

Go to labour department

And yes know the answer but will not provide it as you seem unwilling to listen to others

But judging from the way you right people off I can guess why the would steal from you

+100

[Andre0720]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

So you do not have any related experience or knowledge? but bored so felt the need to troll in

Do you have experience speaking with labor department?i am guessing the answer is a no

I have advised you to go to the Labour dept, that is not trolling that is advice

My other points were about your downright rudeness, a view that seems to be shared by others on here

Did i ask you " where i should ask"? It did not cross your mind that i am well aware of labor department?

I will ask you again, have you dealt with labor department?

My post number 47 certainly qualifies as an experience with dealing with the labor department. They do respond to enquiries, and offer professional advice when specifics are submitted.

And as a bonus, it provides a number for a "where I you should ask".

[realenglish1]

I have a company here and it is simple You must pay for the days worked. However file a police report and be done with this. Make them pay for what was stolen if you can prove it and then dedict it from the salary and have then sign paper stating that what you deducted from what was owed was from the left

Get them to sign and have someone witness it and then pay them the balance of what you owe them and be done with it

They did what they did and it should not consume you Get over it

[Bcgardener]

I have a business here and employ staff (not in hospitality). My reading of the labour laws and our standard employment contract (drawn up by a labour lawyer) would indicate that staff must be paid for all hours worked at the relevant rate as stated in their contract i.e. normal hours OT etc. This payment is a totally separate issue to any disciplinary issues i.e. stealing. In our employment contracts it states a number of reasons for immediate dismissal including theft, however it also states that the employee will be paid up until that day of dismissal including any overtime etc. In the case of any criminal act a report is made to the Police and a copy of that report filed in their employment file in case that any dispute arises.

I would think that you are liable for payment of any days worked and the theft is a separate issue.

In my own experience some theft always exists (in my case scrap metal) but you have to weigh up the cost of prevention vs. the cost of the loss. Sometimes it's best to just accept it if you can't easily prove it (caught red handed is of course the exception)

[konfuzed]

i work in a company where we had problems with stealing... guy was terminated... he then sued for wrongful termination and won and company is forced to pay severance plus interest...

be careful and make sure you hire a good lawyer when they go to claim against you.

[stoli]

I have tried not to, but I just have to respond. It is very clear that you have no objective of finding out the correct answer. You decided how you were going to handle this long before you ever made the post. You are not comfortable with your decision, and you are hoping that someone will post something that will agree with the decision you have already made, making it easier for you to sleep at night. You don't want to pay the employee for work performed, that is obvious. Why keep banging your head on the wall? Just remember, you have made yourself the accuser, the judge, and the jury. Not a world that many people would, or should accept. Best of luck.

[BrianCR]

Under Thai labour law you are NOT allowed to stop any money from salary unless the employee agrees with this in writing. If stoppages are included in a written contract money maybe stopped unless the employee claims that they were (forced to sign that contract). In the case of theft you are legally entitled to dismissed the employee without notice or any such other payment other than the time actually worked.

The theft should be reported to the police and legal action taken to protect yourself against a future claim for wrongful dismissal. You may then also start a civil case to recover your property BUT, legally you can't stop it from the salary!

In practice things work slightly differently, before you pay salary, you inform the employee that you intend to call in the police and prosecute or that the employee returns the goods or signs an agreement stating that he or she stole the goods and offers his or her salary by way of compensation. In return for doing this the police will NOT be called in! Most employees will agree with the latter part.

Thanks for that, as i mentioned in the past when employees were caught stealing and police was called, nothing happened, police did not even follow up, even when i pressed charges.

So are you saying that even police were not to take action, still need to file a police report? even for employees who are on probation so dismissing them is not a problem

Hi

Yes if it comes to that (reporting to the police) which should always happen to save a wrongful dismissal case against you however, as I said it is much better to try the threat of getting the police involved but then offer to relent if they sign a document admitting the theft and agreeing to reimburse you by returning the goods or allowing you to keep the wage. The threat of doing it is the important part but, if they won't agree with wage and signing then you must report it to prevent a wrongful dismissal case against you. Hope that is a bit clearer

[HUAHIN62]

Although this won't help you now, many Thai firms either ask for a deposit or for someone to stand in as a guarantee for the employee. According to the letter of the law you must pay them and open a criminal case against them (not civil). Practically you can trade the outstanding pay of against not opening a case. But be carefull. Talk to your local Dept of Labour and get their inputs.

[zeichen]

I have nothing to add but just want to annoy the OP. I would love this thread to get over 100 pages long just to annoy him.

First of all you have had at least 10 people respond and give you a very clear answer.

I have been an employee here and if they really want to get their money wages from you they can.

If you have a legal contract written in Thai that states a procedure for early dismissal or quitting, then you wouldn't have to pay.

There are ways to protect yourself as others have suggested. There are legal procedures that you must follow, but since you just don't care to listen to what others have said, put your head in the sand and deal with the ramifications of your choices.

Fact. if you catch someone stealing, give them the choice of calling the police or leaving. They will most likely not ask for salary but if they demand their severance you do legally need to pay them.

As others have stated the Labor board is very clear on this. These are 2 separate issues, criminal and labor.

[fstarbkk]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

If the answer from a competent Thai lawyer regarding Thai law isn't good enough for you, what makes you think any of us here know better? Your company's lawyer may not be the cream of his profession, but at least the law IS his business.

Just FYI - Yes I run a business with over 100 Thai employees here. And whenever I am in a situation like this, I ask MY company lawyer, who knows what he's doing and has kept my a** out of the wringer more than once.

Not that I would waste time on something as petty as 4 days wages for a thieving employee. Toss him out, call the cops if you like and move on...

[lemoncake]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

So you do not have any related experience or knowledge? but bored so felt the need to troll in

Do you have experience speaking with labor department?i am guessing the answer is a no

Being rude does not seem to be working for you

Go to labour department

And yes know the answer but will not provide it as you seem unwilling to listen to others

But judging from the way you right people off I can guess why the would steal from you

Please go troll else where

[CaptHaddock]

>> One of my good, loyal staff, has also had enough of the bad people and suggested i introduce an unpaid trial period of 5 or 7 days.

Ingenious solution! Since an employee stole from you, why not steal from every employee every after?!

Yes, I know, you don't want to hear it.

[darrendsd]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

So you do not have any related experience or knowledge? but bored so felt the need to troll in

Do you have experience speaking with labor department?i am guessing the answer is a no

Being rude does not seem to be working for you

Go to labour department

And yes know the answer but will not provide it as you seem unwilling to listen to others

But judging from the way you right people off I can guess why the would steal from you

Please go troll else where

People here are not trolling they are giving you answers you don't want to hear because you have already decided what you want to do and don't want to hear any more suggestions

Read what people on here are saying instead of just dismissing the advice, people here are giving good advice and trying to help you, just because you do not like or want to hear some of the advice given does not mean that we are Trolls

How this has got 2 and a half pages of answers given your attitude is a testament of how some people on TV like to give their time to help, your attitude towards these people does not warrant such help