Can a UK Credit Card debt create problem in Thailand on Visa Matters?

[wolf5370]

@

Huayrat

Any known example that a UK debt has been sold debt to Thai Debt collection agency. And thus creating problems. I think if as such would be indeed very informative to everybody.

Cheers

I had an American Express Gold Card in Hong Kong whilst I was living in Chiangmai. I topped up the account with most of my balance cash in London and the office suggested that since my card was a bit frayed they would renew it. So I gave it to them and they said to come back in two 4 days time. The card got lost in Hongkong and they were unable to get it back before my return flight left. I had no means of paying my Hotel bill and so I could not leave, I missed my flight and my whole onward holiday was screwed up. It was a dreadful experince and American Express profusely apologised. They finally issued me a new card three days after I was supposed the leave. I used it to buy a first class flight back to Bangkok and demanded$10,000 compension for the loss of the rest of my holiday. They refused citing "computer error" They would not even compensate me for my airfare. So I threatened to take them to court. I got no reply.So I spent $10,000 less my airfare and advised them accordingly. They cancelled my card and not long after I was hounded in Chiangmai by someone saying he was ffrom American Express making threats in spite of me explaining the situation many times. Finally I got a lawyer and sued them. They wrigled out of the case by citeing some clause in credit card rules and finally left me alone.

So I am posting this because credit card companies do chase up debts. So beware maybe not small ones but 8000 GBP??,

The difference is Gemini they have no jurisdiction - there is absolutely nothing that can be done if you have no assets within their jurisdiction - they can not extradite and they can not sue in a separate jurisdiction (as the contract itself will have specified the jurisdiction - they always do to protect themselves from being sued in some other country - they can not control the legal recourse in). Chase they might, but if it is ignored they have no bite and are limited by law (timewise).

[sustento]

http://debt-consolidation.cleardebts.co.uk/move_abroad_debts_written_off.html

I'd be wary of sites like that. They charge you to 'help' manage your debts. There are charities that do the same thing for free:

http://www.stepchange.org/

you can go read any debt advice page and they will all tell you the same thing.. That was just the first one that was at the top of the google search... They can sell the debt to another agency in another country 100% fact... Im also very highly doubt they will chase this guy to Thailand for 8k as i dont know of any debt agencies here or ever heard of anybody being chased here for a debt back home

They can sell it to who they like but it's only legally enforceable through the British courts.

[sustento]

There's a good read on overseas debts here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?266-Overseas-Debt-Overseas-Account-issues

[wolf5370]

Just a word of warning here for anyone so tempted. There was a case a number of years ago (sorry can't remember the specifics) - but a guy ran up a large debt on newly acquired cards and took a couple of fast payout loans and came to Thailand. He was chased, it was in 100k Gbp range. Not by the lenders directly, but by the British police - as his intent (alleged I suppose) was not to pay the loans back, he was chased under fraud laws. If I remember right, a British Barrister said that if he has made just one payment on each, it would have been very difficult to prove that was the case - but he didn't. Can't remember if he was extradited, I seem to remember him returning under his own volition and paying most of it back in return for a slap on the knuckles - but that might just be what I thought would happen (anyone remember it?)

[wolf5370]

There's a good read on overseas debts here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?266-Overseas-Debt-Overseas-Account-issues

Yes an interesting note comes form one of those - if a CCJ has been made (Country Court Judgement) this could be sought to be enforced overseas (through a court locally) - the post was Australian with a British debt, so it may have more relevance due to the legal ties between the two countries (and commonwealth connection) - I would think it next to impossible to do so here.

[travelman]

Hi

Thanks all of you guys for providing valuable information.

After reading all the replies what I have figured out is as under : -

1. Certainly chasing defaulters depends upon the amount of debt. Of course every creditor has different approach or parameters to access the debt.
2. Credit Contract agreement between defaulter and the creditor only has legal jurisdiction inside UK only. They don't have the authority to follow up defaulters in a foreign country unless there is a legal binding or agreement between UK and Thailand is in place. On civil matters there is no agreement as such.
3. Foreign Governments can only pursue the matter if its is of criminal in nature or by International law enforcing agencies.
4. Local credit collection agencies cannot pursue foreigners without the legal approval. Even if UK bank has a branch in Thailand, Still they don't have legal powers to go after UK defaulters.

I think now my friend can sleep tight without any worries. However I will update about him just in case LLoyds want to prove otherwise.

Cheers

[wolf5370]

He may get a lot of willy wagling from them - BS letter threatening all manor of things, just ignore them - there is no jurisdiction (If the consumer credit application was made in England or Wales - that is the jurisdiction - Scotland/NI are separate jurisdictions and they would have to apply through Scottish/NI courts! - though this is obviously easier due to ties, its just means to grab Scottish/NI assets it would need a local CCJ on top of the England/Wales one) - never acknowledge them - ever!

[Timwin]

Collection agencies usually forward these cases to Asian partners, most likely to some agency in Singapore with no jurisdiction in Thailand of course. Then they will send few threatening letters with "Unless paid ASAP we will forward this to our local lawyers". After that, they do nothing. They try to intimidate debtors to pay something and it works for maybe 10-20 percent of customers. Easy money.

Debt collection agencies buy these debts in bulk, paying something like 5-15 percent of the debt value per loan. Unless the debt is huge, something like 50000 dollars or more, it does not pay to them to go chasing which is costly (thousands of dollars per case). Even in those cases there must be easily recoverable assets in Thailand, like a lot of cash in bank. They do asset search in those cases first.

It is still recommendable to negotiate with creditors, try to renegotiate the sum lower. Usually after few years they are happy to do it because it is still profitable for them.

[wolf5370]

Collection agencies usually forward these cases to Asian partners, most likely to some agency in Singapore with no jurisdiction in Thailand of course. Then they will send few threatening letters with "Unless paid ASAP we will forward this to our local lawyers". After that, they do nothing. They try to intimidate debtors to pay something and it works for maybe 10-20 percent of customers. Easy money.

Debt collection agencies buy these debts in bulk, paying something like 5-15 percent of the debt value per loan. Unless the debt is huge, something like 50000 dollars or more, it does not pay to them to go chasing which is costly (thousands of dollars per case). Even in those cases there must be easily recoverable assets in Thailand, like a lot of cash in bank. They do asset search in those cases first.

It is still recommendable to negotiate with creditors, try to renegotiate the sum lower. Usually after few years they are happy to do it because it is still profitable for them.

Sounds about right except the last paragraph. I guess you are an American (?) British laws are a little more draconian in this regard - Bailiffs have incredible powers (some dating back over a thousand years) and a little more than thugs in many cases (with right to climb through open windows or debtors!) - DCAs (Debt Collection Agencies) though have limited powers (in fact none specifically). They use the court system instead (in theory) - often these are based around legal firms (solicitors firms) - few are overly large like the mass American market - some are fairly bog, but not by US standards. They usually have connections with certain lenders and take all of their debts (often by area - often with links to several lenders). They use some very nefarious means to "extort" the money and very large fees and interest rates - they rarely negotiate fairly - to negotiate it is better to let the County Court do it by filing paperwork that shows inability to pay - the court will then freeze the interest and limit the repayments (increasing the term to cover it) - minimum is usually five pounds per debt, although debts are sometimes rolled up into a single debt to reduce this further to a single or limited number of payments.

In this guys case, from what we hear - if he is not going home for at least 6 years, probably best to ignore everything and let the inactivity clear the debt - or, if he has 700 quid laying around (which I guess is doubtful) to file for bankruptcy (which will black list him for a year - but may also cause other issues later where forms ask if you have ever filed for bankruptcy - even if the court denies the request (and keeps the 700 quid)).

[wgdanson]

How does Columbamumbai know which day to start the Credit Card withdrawals?

[jrtmedic]

Whilst the OP is generously shielding his friend from debt by providing a bed and board there are longer term issues which will have to be, sooner or later, addressed if a long term stay in Thailand is envisaged.

Irritating little things like visas and income !

The debt is I suspect the least of the OP's friends problems !

Edited August 23, 2013 by jrtmedic

[Alwyn]

I have known plenty of people here that have done just that - some even racked them up to their limits before coming! After 5 6 years most debts will disappear from CCN searches, but not taxes (community charge) - they of course may seize anything he owns back in the UK through the County Court system. His family will likely be hounded with creditor letters too - they can get that sorted though (go to the CAB they can get it stopped via a couple of agencies). Of course, on return he will have no credit history at all - so will find credit hard to get again.

They certainly will not chase him - there is no extradition for debt (it is not criminal, but civil - although taxes/community charges/TV licenses debts do come under criminal - but still there be no chase). All these debts are underwritten anyway - so the companies write off the debt after time (claim against bad debt) and banks actually make on it (it allows them to offset money against future bad debt with is held for 7 years tax free - i.e. they can set aside profits (the amount of which is a guess based on the previous year's bad debt ratios) for bad debt for 7 years and any unclaimed can return after that time without having to pay taxes on it like they would have for the profit itself) - non-banks are insured which eventually back tracks to a bank and the bad debt tax write off system. There is no real loss to them to make it worth while chasing him - and there is little chance finding him will help if he is out of the country (unless he can be tricked to return or forced to in other ways).

\\Edit: Just checked - it's 6 years not 5 (changed above). But then all debt (civil debts) are removed - however, he must NOT pay any of them in between, as any time he does the clock will restart - it has to be silent for 6 years.

The last sentence is critical here. Do not contact any of the companies or as the gentleman said, the 6 years start again. The companies will be sending letters to your old address, it would be handy if the people at that address (handy for them too) if they contact the company and say you no longer live there and as far as they are aware you've moved abroad. In the UK the credit recovery companies will only chase you across two counties, then they stop. But how on earth wil you survive here? It's great a friend sponsoring you but there's visas etc to take into consideration. Good luck

Edited August 23, 2013 by Alwyn

[jacko45k]

Yup. I am financing his stay in Thailand.

I'd be more concerned that he's skint and on my door step in all fairness.

Do you plan to finance his entire stay ?

That's very generous of you.

So back to the topic.

Then he'll have no problem here from people back in the UK.

My concern was for his welfare whilst here but he's got that covered.

But I am not financing his debts. Only Food and Lodging. I hope my mate also seeing my post. Lol.

So the guy will just sit around doing nothing other than lounging on your sofa and eating your food?

What will he do after his 30 days are up?

Good luck and I hope your kindness doesn't turn on you..... personally I might be glad to sub him a flight home....!

[Kananga]

Yes they can sell the debt on to a collection company in Thailand.. Will they do it?? I doubt it..

No they can't. A uk credit agreement is not valid in Thailand.

[Kananga]

I have known plenty of people here that have done just that - some even racked them up to their limits before coming! After 5 6 years most debts will disappear from CCN searches, but not taxes (community charge) - they of course may seize anything he owns back in the UK through the County Court system. His family will likely be hounded with creditor letters too - they can get that sorted though (go to the CAB they can get it stopped via a couple of agencies). Of course, on return he will have no credit history at all - so will find credit hard to get again.

They certainly will not chase him - there is no extradition for debt (it is not criminal, but civil - although taxes/community charges/TV licenses debts do come under criminal - but still there be no chase). All these debts are underwritten anyway - so the companies write off the debt after time (claim against bad debt) and banks actually make on it (it allows them to offset money against future bad debt with is held for 7 years tax free - i.e. they can set aside profits (the amount of which is a guess based on the previous year's bad debt ratios) for bad debt for 7 years and any unclaimed can return after that time without having to pay taxes on it like they would have for the profit itself) - non-banks are insured which eventually back tracks to a bank and the bad debt tax write off system. There is no real loss to them to make it worth while chasing him - and there is little chance finding him will help if he is out of the country (unless he can be tricked to return or forced to in other ways).

\\Edit: Just checked - it's 6 years not 5 (changed above). But then all debt (civil debts) are removed - however, he must NOT pay any of them in between, as any time he does the clock will restart - it has to be silent for 6 years.

They can still contact him after 6 years and if he answers the call the debt restarts again... The bank will and do sell the debt on to a collection agency for a small amount.. So in fact it won't be the bank that's chasing him it will be an outside debt collector agency..

That is incorrect. If they contact him within 6 years of defaulting and he admits to the debt or makes a payment then the 6 year statute of limitations is reset. If there is no payment of admission of the debt for 6 years the statute of limitations comes into force and they collector has no legal means of collecting the debt. The debt is still there, however they cannot use the courts to get payment.

[Kananga]

@

Huayrat

Any known example that a UK debt has been sold debt to Thai Debt collection agency. And thus creating problems. I think if as such would be indeed very informative to everybody.

Cheers

No there isn't because it is not legally enforcable. If they did instill a local agency in Thailand to collect payment just tell them to burger off as the Thai courts have no jurisdiction over a UK debt.

[Kananga]

@

Huayrat

Any known example that a UK debt has been sold debt to Thai Debt collection agency. And thus creating problems. I think if as such would be indeed very informative to everybody.

Cheers

I had an American Express Gold Card in Hong Kong whilst I was living in Chiangmai. I topped up the account with most of my balance cash in London and the office suggested that since my card was a bit frayed they would renew it. So I gave it to them and they said to come back in two 4 days time. The card got lost in Hongkong and they were unable to get it back before my return flight left. I had no means of paying my Hotel bill and so I could not leave, I missed my flight and my whole onward holiday was screwed up. It was a dreadful experince and American Express profusely apologised. They finally issued me a new card three days after I was supposed the leave. I used it to buy a first class flight back to Bangkok and demanded$10,000 compension for the loss of the rest of my holiday. They refused citing "computer error" They would not even compensate me for my airfare. So I threatened to take them to court. I got no reply.So I spent $10,000 less my airfare and advised them accordingly. They cancelled my card and not long after I was hounded in Chiangmai by someone saying he was ffrom American Express making threats in spite of me explaining the situation many times. Finally I got a lawyer and sued them. They wrigled out of the case by citeing some clause in credit card rules and finally left me alone.

So I am posting this because credit card companies do chase up debts. So beware maybe not small ones but 8000 GBP??,

They can chase all they want, but a UK debt is not enforceable through the Thai courts.

[BKKBrit]

I find it peculiar how so many in this forum appear to support this guy not making any attempt to pay his dues and seem to emphasize with his plight. And these are the very same people who blame banks for the world's woes. Doesn't it cross your mind that people who don't pay debts are part of the problem? I have no tolerance for people who make no attempt to pay debts they owe either personal or corporate. Greed is today's greatest failing in our development as a species.

Edited August 23, 2013 by BKKBrit

[PoorSucker]

Post in Thai script removed as per forum rules.

[cardholder]

@

Huayrat

Any known example that a UK debt has been sold debt to Thai Debt collection agency. And thus creating problems. I think if as such would be indeed very informative to everybody.

Cheers

Like you, I don't believe this would happen in Thailand.

It could not happen because no agency would be dumb enough to acquire the debt knowing the debtor was in Thailand.

I have known several people who had 'long stay' plans, only to return with a year or so. The OP's friend should consider what he would do in those circumstances.

I am sure that income and visa requirements have already been considered.

[PoorSucker]

What visa is he intending to stay on if he has no money.
How about medical insurance.

[FiestyFarang]

I have known plenty of people here that have done just that - some even racked them up to their limits before coming! After 5 6 years most debts will disappear from CCN searches, but not taxes (community charge) - they of course may seize anything he owns back in the UK through the County Court system. His family will likely be hounded with creditor letters too - they can get that sorted though (go to the CAB they can get it stopped via a couple of agencies). Of course, on return he will have no credit history at all - so will find credit hard to get again.

They certainly will not chase him - there is no extradition for debt (it is not criminal, but civil - although taxes/community charges/TV licenses debts do come under criminal - but still there be no chase). All these debts are underwritten anyway - so the companies write off the debt after time (claim against bad debt) and banks actually make on it (it allows them to offset money against future bad debt with is held for 7 years tax free - i.e. they can set aside profits (the amount of which is a guess based on the previous year's bad debt ratios) for bad debt for 7 years and any unclaimed can return after that time without having to pay taxes on it like they would have for the profit itself) - non-banks are insured which eventually back tracks to a bank and the bad debt tax write off system. There is no real loss to them to make it worth while chasing him - and there is little chance finding him will help if he is out of the country (unless he can be tricked to return or forced to in other ways).

\\Edit: Just checked - it's 6 years not 5 (changed above). But then all debt (civil debts) are removed - however, he must NOT pay any of them in between, as any time he does the clock will restart - it has to be silent for 6 years.

They can still contact him after 6 years and if he answers the call the debt restarts again... The bank will and do sell the debt on to a collection agency for a small amount.. So in fact it won't be the bank that's chasing him it will be an outside debt collector agency..

After six years the debt cannot be enforced. Therefore they might contact him but cannot take legal action for collection. However I have to say a lot of articles I have read online are not accurate.

[Leephillips]

Not sure how he could stay in Thailand on a long-term basis as long as he has this colossal debt hanging round his neck. Looks to me like he might have to go back to the UK and face the music there sooner rather than later in any event.

Colossal debt ! Ha-Ha, wake up my friend.

I would suggest bankruptcy, but quite expensive doing it from abroad. I know people that have used this company before, first class service ! www.bankruptcyfromabroad.co.uk

The only suggestion I have to your friend was he should have made it worth defaulting and defaulted on many more thousands ! And dont feel any guilt or worry, there is nothing anyone debtors can do to you thats going to hurt !

[FiestyFarang]

I have known plenty of people here that have done just that - some even racked them up to their limits before coming! After 5 6 years most debts will disappear from CCN searches, but not taxes (community charge) - they of course may seize anything he owns back in the UK through the County Court system. His family will likely be hounded with creditor letters too - they can get that sorted though (go to the CAB they can get it stopped via a couple of agencies). Of course, on return he will have no credit history at all - so will find credit hard to get again.

They certainly will not chase him - there is no extradition for debt (it is not criminal, but civil - although taxes/community charges/TV licenses debts do come under criminal - but still there be no chase). All these debts are underwritten anyway - so the companies write off the debt after time (claim against bad debt) and banks actually make on it (it allows them to offset money against future bad debt with is held for 7 years tax free - i.e. they can set aside profits (the amount of which is a guess based on the previous year's bad debt ratios) for bad debt for 7 years and any unclaimed can return after that time without having to pay taxes on it like they would have for the profit itself) - non-banks are insured which eventually back tracks to a bank and the bad debt tax write off system. There is no real loss to them to make it worth while chasing him - and there is little chance finding him will help if he is out of the country (unless he can be tricked to return or forced to in other ways).

\\Edit: Just checked - it's 6 years not 5 (changed above). But then all debt (civil debts) are removed - however, he must NOT pay any of them in between, as any time he does the clock will restart - it has to be silent for 6 years.

They can still contact him after 6 years and if he answers the call the debt restarts again... The bank will and do sell the debt on to a collection agency for a small amount.. So in fact it won't be the bank that's chasing him it will be an outside debt collector agency..

After six years the debt becomes unenforceable, however if you have paid or acknowledged the debt this is when the six years start. They can still contact you after six years but cannot take legal action to pay, although maybe they will threaten legal action etc. However many articles I have read online are not accurate.

[Phatcharanan]

Greed is today's greatest failing in our development as a species.

Personally, I would have thought wars, genocide, chemical weapons in Syria killing hundreds etc were our greatest failings.

[cardholder]

Not sure how he could stay in Thailand on a long-term basis as long as he has this colossal debt hanging round his neck. Looks to me like he might have to go back to the UK and face the music there sooner rather than later in any event.

Colossal debt ! Ha-Ha, wake up my friend.

I would suggest bankruptcy, but quite expensive doing it from abroad. I know people that have used this company before, first class service ! www.bankruptcyfromabroad.co.uk

The only suggestion I have to your friend was he should have made it worth defaulting and defaulted on many more thousands ! And dont feel any guilt or worry, there is nothing anyone debtors can do to you thats going to hurt !

... and we wonder why the banks are making it harder to borrow money.

<deleted> like this who can advocate fraudulent activity - without any guilt or worry - simply add costs to the system. The banks' don't lose, it is other customers who pay for such theft.

Socialism at work !!

[cardholder]

Greed is today's greatest failing in our development as a species.

Personally, I would have thought wars, genocide, chemical weapons in Syria killing hundreds etc were our greatest failings.

Nope. I think greed beats all of them - infact greed probably causes some of them.

[NCFC]

8k GBP is not a massive debt and this guy really ought to go back and sort his life out. There are even agencies such as citizen's advice bureau who will help this guy through his problems for free. Let's face it, he's not going to hole out for six years on a mate's sofa. Sooner or later he has to face up to his responsibilities so better to do it sooner rather than later.

[marcher]

Yup. I am financing his stay in Thailand.

I'd be more concerned that he's skint and on my door step in all fairness.

Do you plan to finance his entire stay ?

I had a friend who arrived broke and moved in withme with his girlfriend, but after a month I had to throw them out as he was drinking up to 3 litres of my wine a night. After a month with his girlfriend she could not afford him and threw him out. I took him back in for as long as he did not drink, But in the end he succumbed when I was out one night so he was back with his girlfriend

Looking after someone is not too expensive, apart from the wine. Unfortunately his visa ran out and he had no money for another 3 month one. Luckily for him he was funded for a job elsewhere and flew out paying his 20,000B overstay en route

[NoshowJones]

If you have no assets in the UK, but are getting regular money from somewhere. ie renting out property, getting your private or state pension paid into your UK bank, are staying permanently in Thailand, and owe 8000 GBP on your UK credit card, and stop making payments. I believe your credit card company can get a court order if they know your address in Thailand, and know which UK bank account you have. Depending how much money you have in your UK bank account, can arrest it, can arrest some of the money from your house renting agreement and any pension you have.