Please help me understand Thai house electricals...

[krisb]

Just redid the wiring of a friends large resort and home. Use a larger good quality breaker box with RCD and a grounding connection that is wired to a 5 foot copper rod that is buried in the earth it's whole length.

Use one size larger gauge wire and 3 prong good quality(Panasonic) ac outlets. One breaker box per every 2 rooms is good. Home Pro, Thai Watsadu, all have good stuff. Don't forget your emergency lights and battery backup for all the Thai blackouts ahead.

When you say just re did, do you mean you did the work yourself?

[Alwyn]

Ok, dumb ?, so do they use circuit breakers in Thailand?

errr.. are you serious? Have you not seen a fuse box anywhere in Thailand? I get the feeling this whole post is a wind up, right?

[Muhendis]

Krisb.

Most of the posts so far are good information however the presumption is that you are using the main electricity company supply. If, like me, you are installing a solar supply then the earthing regime is quite different. Under no circumstances should there be a connection between earth and neutral. This must be made to a gounding rod (preferably three). The ground must be a single star point connection that will act as a dissipative current path in the event of an equipment fault and thus trip the ELCB/RCD and also (hopefully) de-ionize the air in the event of an electrical storm.

As a golden rule it matters not if you are using class II or class I insulated equipment. All power sockets should have a ground connection because either class of equipment may become connected to that socket. There are standards adopted throughout the world which have been flouted most gloriously here (Thailand) so if you are interested in reading yourself to sleep you could have a look at the latest edition of the IEEE regs.

In the UK the practice of connecting the house earth to neutral is very much frowned upon. The water supply pipes (if metal) are generally used and/or the power company cable has an earth. However, this is Thailand............You won't find that here. Finding a sparky? Good luck on that one but don't let the builder do it. He may not twist the wires together well enough.

[Crossy]

In the UK the practice of connecting the house earth to neutral is very much frowned upon. The water supply pipes (if metal) are generally used and/or the power company cable has an earth.

True, 40 years ago.

Nowadays an awful lot of TN-S supplies have been converted to TN-C-S (PME) as the old steel armouring of the supply cables has corroded away leaving the consumer with no earth. The N-E link is in the service head and so is invisible to the consumer, he sees 3 wires L, N and E.

Water pipes are never used as an earth (they are bonded to the main earth terminal mind), if the supply is TT then a rod is installed.

[Nickthegreek]

Hi Krisb

If this helps in Rayong to have a double socket fitted will cost from 150 baht - 500 baht depending on the guy, i have used many Thai Electricians here they are about the same standard, friends of ours Thai had new extension build recently with a run of about 30 metres to jump to the old box and new box fitted and numerous points and all inclusive it cost 17000 baht, so a whole house IMHO for a THAI !! should be on the 50K mark if you buy all your own parts and only pay for labour,

These are only guesstimates but sockets 3 pin CE marked wall sunk 250 if my memory serves me and 3 strand copper wire 2.5 is about 20 baht a metre last time I checked..but they may have been 1.5..

Lights I would not pay more than 500 baht per unit depending on what he had to do, more if it was only one item..

Get three quotes and ask him to show you other work he has done..

[retell]

Some good points made above.

To answer our OP:

"What's up with not using 3 plug power points?"

There's nothing inherently hazardous about a 2-pin system, just because there's no ground doesn't mean you're going to die. Many, many modern appliances are Class-2 (double insulated) and do not require a ground in order to be safe, they invariably have 2-pin plugs and usually, plastic casework.

The above is true UNTIL someone plugs in an appliance that requires a ground (Class-1), these usually have metal casework and will invariably have a 3-pin plug. Example of Class-1 appliances are, washing machines, microwaves, water heaters, air-conditioners and your desktop computer. Plug in a Class-1 appliance without a ground and all bets are off (desktop computers particularly, can bite if operated ungrounded).

As has been noted earlier all new installations must have grounded 3-pin outlets and be protected by an RCD (earth leakage protection). The electrical inspector may refuse to certify your system if it doesn't meet these minimum requirements, this will mean you're stuck on a temporary supply and paying double for your power.

This PEA document has some very good information for your sparks http://www.crossy.co.uk/Handy%20Files/groundwire.pdf notice how the incoming neutral is routed via the ground bar, this is the standard Thai means of implementing MEN your inspector will be looking for this configuration and may fail the installation if it's not done exactly like the diagrams. Incidentally, this is the same configuration as the US NEC requires.

"Where do I find a good sparky to hire in/near KK?"

Sorry can't help there

"Should a sparky be liscensed?"

In Thailand? I don't believe there is any form of licensing system in place (at least not for domestic sparkies)

"Where do I buy quality switches and points?"

Any of the big name DIY retailers (Homepro, Homeworks, Boonthavorn etc) and there are a multitude of electrical specialist shops, have a look around

"What sort of prices to wire up a 300sq/m house approx?"

Sorry can't help there, our sparks (we used up four) was included in the cost of the build

As has been noted earlier all new installations must have grounded 3-pin outlets and be protected by an RCD (earth leakage protection). The electrical inspector may refuse to certify your system if it doesn't meet these minimum requirements, this will mean you're stuck on a temporary supply and paying double for your power.

well thats new for me got all the electric done myself but never got it certified does this mean i automaticly pay double at the powercompany ?? or did you mean something else

[Crossy]

well thats new for me got all the electric done myself but never got it certified does this mean i automaticly pay double at the powercompany ?? or did you mean something else

If it was a re-wire there's no issue (they only certify it once), but if you're on a new build then MEA/PEA should have inspected the installation before changing the meter from temporary to permanent.

Check your electricity bill, if you're paying about 4 Baht a unit that's normal rate, temporary is about 8 Baht a unit.

[RigPig]

Ok, dumb ?, so do they use circuit breakers in Thailand?

Hi the krisb ... as you know, I'm a sparkie, though haven't worked in the trade for 30 years.

In Australia, they do a couple of things differently.

Firstly, they earth the Neutral Bar in the meter box so that you know that your Neutral is always earthed.

Secondly, every light fitting is earthed because many of us used to use the wiring for the central bedroom light and wack a ceiling fan in ... thus a metal fan has to be earthed.

... In Australia.

In Thailand you can buy the Clipsal made switched 3 pin double GPO ... http://www.directtoshop.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/en/directtoshop/electrical/switches---plugs/double-sockets-clipsal-p2725

All their stuff here ... http://www.directtoshop.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/en/directtoshop/electrical

BTW, I've never set foot in their store, nor recommending it ... just wanted a visual guide to show the gf.

Also, you can have fitted what we call an ELCB (Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker) which basically works on the principle of, if you are getting zapped, the thing automatically shuts off all the power on that circuit.

I involuntary tested that device one time by being half awake one morning to forgetting to turn off the power at the wall to the toaster with the bread buring in it and with the metal knife tried to unsick the toast, touching the glowing element with the metal knife ...

With the ELCB that I'm used to working with, only that one power circuit that it was connected to would 'trip' ... but I don't know about the ones they use in Thailand.

As for circuit breakers ... don't think they will save your life!

A circuit breaker might be a 10 amp (ampere) type and designed to trip on a current over that amount.

However, a current over 30 milli-amps could kill you.

Remember my fridge story from http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/659058-tales-from-the-farm/

Mate, as for the cost of wiring ... I have no idea because I've never 'wired' a house over here.

Wired to your standard would be more expensive then to what would be accepted by say a Thai Family.

As the other poster mentioned ... you can have the Earth wire connected into the back of all the GPOs ... and connected to the 'sky wire' ... as those copper earths are so darn expensive.

Plus, as for the cost, do you want the wire chased into the brickwork, or exposed on the wall, then disappearing into the back of the switch like a Thai would have done ... all comes down to money.

I certainly would be checking visually and with a circuit tester or multi-meter the electrical connections.

You are up Issan way? Sometimes the ground dries out and there is not an effective earth.

I read somewhere about placing the earth spike near the effluent outlet as that area is usually moist.

4.40am here, I'm back to sleep ... hopefully.

Not sure what part of Oz you are referring to, but most normal house light fittings, except fluros, do NOT have an earth connection. CB's certainly will NOT save your life, for that you WILL need an ELCB/RCD.

Sorry bad Internet connection, read post below

Edited September 3, 2013 by RigPig

[RigPig]

Number 1, YOU DO NEED A GROUND FOR LIGHTING. In Australia even if the light is not grounded because it doesn't need it (double insulated type) the earth wire is still there and MUST BE PROVEN TO BE FUNCTIONING. This applies to all but very old dwellings.

Number 2. You can purchase combined RCD MCB units a combined Earth Leakage circuit breaker and current / short circuit circuit breaker but of course they are more expensive.

Number 3. LISTEN TO CROSSY'S ADVICE!!!

[HUAHIN62]

Got a qualified electrician and rewired the whole house, put in 3 point plugs with on/off switches, divided the power supply into 3 lines with 3 DB's and each with its own ELCB. After the work was completed the electrician proved that ELCB's worked by shorting 2 wires at a plug. Within a month it saved a guys life that worked on the swimming pool pump.

[Anon999]

Most Thai houses are not earthed so you will not see 3 pin sockets.

Our house had the earth wire from the electric shower heaters going into the roof and going nowhere.

Utter rubbish. Built my house 4 years ago and it has 3 pin sockets that accept UK, Euro plus 2 pin Thai as well. 3 core cabling throughout, Live, Neutral & Earth all connected up correctly. Don't believe any Thai electrician that says you cannot buy 3 core cable here he is lying. Bangkok Cable make it as do others.

You can buy 3 pin plugs and sockets plus extension cables from any good electrical store, usually Australian origin. Go to a good small electrical shop run by a qualified lekky and ask for his advice on all the various components. He will also have catalogues from various manufacturers so you can choose the type that you prefer. Sounds like you will also need a Schneider Load Centre from Square D.

[David48]

Hi the krisb ... as you know, I'm a sparkie, though haven't worked in the trade for 30 years.

Secondly, every light fitting is earthed because many of us used to use the wiring for the central bedroom light and wack a ceiling fan in ... thus a metal fan has to be earthed.

... In Australia.

Not sure what part of Oz you are referring to, but most normal house light fittings, except fluros, do NOT have an earth connection. CB's certainly will NOT save your life, for that you WILL need an ELCB/RCD.

Rorri, I don't mean to get into a discussion about wiring in Australia but ...

BUT ... first, can you please confirm that you are a registered electrician?

Secondly, I worked for SEQEB, now Energex, which is the Power Supply Authority for QLD.

I have literally been to hundreds of dwellings checking the power system after the sparkie has wired it.

It was my job.

As I said, the reason that light fittings have to be earthed BY LAW is that many then went on to remove the central light fitting and install a ceiling fan which had to be earthed.

I await with interest your qualified reply.

David48

.

[David48]

Ok, dumb ?, so do they use circuit breakers in Thailand?

errr.. are you serious? Have you not seen a fuse box anywhere in Thailand? I get the feeling this whole post is a wind up, right?

krisb is a mate of mine ... I vouch for him.

Definitely not a wind up.

BS does happen a lot ...

I agree with you ... just not with this OP.

.

[krisb]

Ok, dumb ?, so do they use circuit breakers in Thailand?

errr.. are you serious? Have you not seen a fuse box anywhere in Thailand? I get the feeling this whole post is a wind up, right?

Not a wind up. To clarify, I'm describing what we use here in Australia. The breakers that break the circuit in a split second before electrocuted. Obviously I assume they do, but taking 1 look at the wiring I see on the streets, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't. Remember the old wrap the wire around the fuse thing? I imagine Thailand would use that still.

[Crossy]

What you see in Oz krisb are RCDs or RCBOs which will quickly disconnect the supply if you touch a live wire. They are used here, but many installations still are using only MCBs which will happily let you fry if you touch a live wire.

Often a single RCD / RCBO will be used to protect an entire installation against earth leakage (shock) as they are not a cheap thing.

The clue is that RCDs and RCBOs have a 'Test' button, MCBs do not.

Fuses are still in use here too, same issues as MCBs.

[biplanebluey]

Ok, dumb ?, so do they use circuit breakers in Thailand?

Ok so I am a bit bum too but I was put onto a guy who does a thing called Safe -T -Cut. This little box of tricks has taken all my worries away in one fell swoop.I have inadvertently tested id when playing about with the house wiring and I think I may have been killed twice if we did not have it as it immediately shuts the whole house off and you have to reset the appropriate circuit breakers. It has scared the S*%t out of me on both occasions but HEY its better than dieing

[Crossy]

Ok, dumb ?, so do they use circuit breakers in Thailand?

Ok so I am a bit bum too but I was put onto a guy who does a thing called Safe -T -Cut. This little box of tricks has taken all my worries away in one fell swoop.I have inadvertently tested id when playing about with the house wiring and I think I may have been killed twice if we did not have it as it immediately shuts the whole house off and you have to reset the appropriate circuit breakers. It has scared the S*%t out of me on both occasions but HEY its better than dieing

Indeed it is, the Safe-T-Cut is a whole house RCBO.

The only thing I dislike about them is that they have a 'Bypass' or 'Direct' setting, never use it as it turns off the shock protection.

[David48]

Just one tip that we used to recommend.

Don't use the ELCB on the fridge circuit.

Separately wire one circuit, just for the fridge and EARTH it.

the reason being is that you go away for a week-end or a week's holiday and the neighbour (who has secretly tapped into your supply or a friend who fe3eds your cat etc has tripped the ELCB and now your Sirloin Steak bought for 800 baht a kilo is now a shade of green and not fit for the neighbours dog (who you dislike).

You occasionally get some nuisance tripping when a Washing Machine is involved ... or should I say ... used to.

[masuk]

Since I've moved to Chiang Mai, and bought various electrical appliances, I can safely say that there are at LEAST FIVE different plugs used.

Buy new appliances in the shops, and you're likely to end up with at least two kinds of plugs with earthing and none at all. In fact, a common one has no outlet in Thailand that I have seen. It has a hole in the plug for the earth.

My internet model has a plug with such small pins that they keep falling out of the outlet. Then there are those with thicker round pins, and there are also two-pin flat pins.

I've done what the Chinese have done, and all their new outlets and plugs are the same as the Aussie ones. I bought a supply of Aussie powerboards with me, and changed all the plugs over. They don't fall out and they are strong and unbreakable.

[jackflash]

Muhendis

> If, like me, you are installing a solar supply then the earthing regime is quite different. Under no circumstances should there be a connection between earth and neutral.

This is wrong if you have installed an RCD for safety. If the Neutral is not earthed (at the inverter) there can never be a unbalanced current, which means an RCD can never trip.

There is some logic in leaving a Solar System floating, but it means that a fault will not blow the fuse (or trip the inverter) but will leave a potentially lethal situation unnoticed.

> In the UK the practice of connecting the house earth to neutral is very much frowned upon.

I have no experience with UK, but in OZ (same system) this is completely wrong.

Edited September 3, 2013 by jackflash

[worgeordie]

Two wires BAD, Three wires GOOD, The Thai earthing method (if at all) is

a 3 inch nail banged into the wall,earth wire wrapped around it.Thais don't

seem to have the concept of how dangerous electricity is, just look at all those

wires joined with bits on tape lying on the floors of most markets,in the rainy

season as well.

regards worgeordie

[krisb]

So a decent or correct method for an earth wire, how should that be setup?

[Crossy]

Read the document I linked to in post 12, this one:

http://www.crossy.co.uk/Handy%20Files/groundwire.pdf

It's in Thai but the diagrams are quite clear.

[Crocbait]

I did a new house about two years ago.

3 bed/3 bath with aircons and electric showers.

RCB fitted and you can buy it integral in your fuse box. Mine is and has 12 circuit breakers as well.

I used good quality light fittings and all up cost was 85,000B. all quotes were similiar.

[khunPer]

So a decent or correct method for an earth wire, how should that be setup?

When I did my house, the electrician banged three, about two meter long copper spikes in the ground next to the house. We found a spot, where the earth is likely to be moisture. The ground spike set comes with a special welding kit for a thick copper wire (fx. 4 sq. mm. or more) from the domestic system, typically straight out of the main breaker box.

You can buy an outlet extension (fx. HomoPro, brand name Elektra, there may be other makes) with surge protection and LED indicators for Earth connection, Safe or Not or Disconnected. It is advisable always to use surge-protected outlets for electronics, as the mains voltage fluctuates, and it will also protect for spikes from the power grid. There are several makers of surge-protectors, some just a plug with or without earth pin in an outlet (costs around 150 baht). Computers, DVD-type players and similar stuff are best protected with an USB.

Your electric circuits for equipment connected to water, like water heaters and washing machine (or Jacuzzi and pool pumps), are advisable to use ELCB-type fuses/breakers in the fuse-box for your safety (some water heaters comes with a build-in ELCB-type protection). Water pumps and other voltage dependant equipment like Air Cons, can be protected by a so-called Phase Protector (measure the mains voltage) and a magnetic switch. They are typically set to switch off when voltage difference is more than 12 percent (you can pre set from 0 to about 15% and a timer for switching back in, fx. 10 seconds). Under voltage may be as damaging for some equipment (especially pumps and motors) as over voltage. It is a small extra cost worth spending, especially when an over-voltage damage your expensive equipment (have seen neighbors mad and almost crying over 100k bath worth of Air Cons and automatic gate spoiled – the gate motor system simply burned in flames).

In general, all the well-known good and safe electric installation equipment are available in Thailand – it’s just a case of finding an electric installer knowing it and using it.

[krisb]

Great advice so far guys, many thanks! Keep it coming, I need all the help I can get....

Big thanks to those members who have sent me pm offering help/assistance.

[Neeranam]

Two wires BAD, Three wires GOOD, The Thai earthing method (if at all) is

a 3 inch nail banged into the wall,earth wire wrapped around it.Thais don't

seem to have the concept of how dangerous electricity is, just look at all those

wires joined with bits on tape lying on the floors of most markets,in the rainy

season as well.

regards worgeordie

To be fair though, I've been electrocuted a few times and survived, whereas if it were in the UK, I'd be dead. Lower amps, isn't it, which would if I remember from Physics, higher voltage?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

You occasionally get some nuisance tripping when a Washing Machine is involved ... or should I say ... used to.

We have an outside washing machine which my wife has grounded by sticking a copper thing into the ground and attaching it to the washer - does this sound ok? Embarrassing as she knows more than I do.

[Phuket electrician]

I've been an apprentice sparky and qualified installation electrician for 25 years in the UK and never met a good one, myself included.

The difference here is that people go around bare foot and perspiring, low resistance to earth all bang and little bite. Shocking, have had hundreds and still going! Why? For example Thai people are resourceful, a cable could be blue at one end of a conduit and yellow at the other. Doesn't mean it isn't the same cable.

Do not attempt anything if you know nothing about it.

All reputable electrical retail outlets have/know of contractors and expect to pay a third of what you would at home. Basic 2 bed house 30K 1 week at B500/day. They'll try and ask for more.

Furthermore TIT do what the locals do. They know best.

If something is out of reach or needs a tool to access it doesn't require an earth, why would it?

Be careful, this is not a nanny state. Finally because something is expensive it doesn't mean it's any good does it?

[jackflash]

Neeranam,

> Lower amps, isn't it, which would if I remember from Physics, higher voltage?

Not sure what you are trying to say. UK uses 240 Volts, same as Thailand.

For a given resistance (eg your body) higher Volts means HIGHER Current.

> We have an outside washing machine which my wife has grounded by sticking a copper thing into the ground and attaching it to the washer - does this sound ok?

Sounds fine if it's been done properly.