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Global warming? No, actually we're cooling, claim scientists


Maestro

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Typhoon Hiayan on it's way to Thailand as I type, currently ripping up the Philippines.

"Possibly the biggest Typhoon in world history."

No, will the profit hungry republican types tell me again that there is no climate change going on?

You can probably find a way to profit from reconstruction and medical aid!

See? Climate change is a good thing for the greedy!

Hold on! I should be here on Monday!

Edited by willyumiii
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... will the profit hungry republican types tell me again that there is no climate change going on?



Well, the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change will tell you that it is impossible to link storms to climate change.


From the IPCC Special Report on Extremes: “The statement about the absence of trends in impacts attributable to natural or anthropogenic climate change holds for tropical and extratropical storms and tornados”


The journal Nature agrees: "Better models are needed before exceptional events can be reliably linked to global warming."


So, lack of attribution of severe storms to “man-made climate change” in the IPCC's AR5 finally nails the lid shut on the claims of Hurricane Sandy, tornado outbreaks, and other favorite “let's not let a good crisis go to waste” media bleatings about climate change.


It's a dead issue. Among scientists, anyway.

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I remember one folks hero, the guy that decided that measles immunisations caused autism, he later had to admit that his claims were ungrounded. He did make a lot of money out of his actions though, and quite a few children dies as a result.

I wonder how many children die from measles in developed countries?

Published figures suggest less than 10.

How many children's lives are destroyed by Autism in the developed countries?

Apparently 1 in 100.

Seems like bad odds to me!

Back on topic.

Government funding is given to scientists (and doctors) who support the current status.

If you disagree there is a real possibility of you being deprived of funding and burnt at the stake for heresy.

Current status, AMCC is real, Autism is not caused by MMR vaccine.

Edited by FiftyTwo
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Love how we whine and complain about allocation of resources that does not fit within our belief system, meanwhile many are loosing everything they have or their lives in the Phillipines right now due to a horrible typhoon. God or whatever you believe in help those people. 195 sustained with 225 gusts according to my buddy Jeff Maaters on a small and poor island with no where to go . . . This could be bad.

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Wind damage in Guiuan (population 47,000) must have been catastrophic, perhaps the greatest wind damage any city on Earth has endured from a tropical cyclone in the past century.

Edited by F430murci
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Love how we whine and complain about allocation of resources that does not fit within our belief system, meanwhile many are loosing everything they have or their lives in the Phillipines right now due to a horrible typhoon. God or whatever you believe in help those people. 195 sustained with 225 gusts according to my buddy Jeff Maaters on a small and poor island with no where to go . . . This could be bad.

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Wind damage in Guiuan (population 47,000) must have been catastrophic, perhaps the greatest wind damage any city on Earth has endured from a tropical cyclone in the past century.

Yes, it's a bad storm, but no one can say it was CAUSED by man's impact on the planet.

I saw David Suzuki giving a lecture about climate change and man's contribution to it on ABC this morning. He is very convincing, but even he admits that man's overpopulation is a contributing factor, and he agrees that it may be too late to do anything to save the human species.

What was most fascinating to me was his account of how people refuse to admit they are first of all ANIMALS controlled by nature, and think they can control the environment!

While I agree now that mankind may be responsible for speeding up climate change, I also agree with those that say it is probably too late to rescue humanity from a self inflicted calamity.

While people are so ignorant as to say there should be no nuclear power, but they want all the toys that need power, there is, frankly, no hope for mankind's survival under the current system.

Let's face it, how many reading this would be prepared to give up ALL carbon technology? My guess is NONE OF YOU. How many decided not to have any children because there are too many people already? Not many, I'll bet.

Let's face it, globalisation is the world's enemy, but what's the chance of changing it??????

Even Obama has bent over and taken it up the *** for corporations and globalisation, leaving his children with a bill for 17 trillion dollars and counting.

So, as I don't have any children to suffer, I'm just going to enjoy the ride while it lasts, and hope I die before it all falls down.

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Love how we whine and complain about allocation of resources that does not fit within our belief system, meanwhile many are loosing everything they have or their lives in the Phillipines right now due to a horrible typhoon. God or whatever you believe in help those people. 195 sustained with 225 gusts according to my buddy Jeff Maaters on a small and poor island with no where to go . . . This could be bad.

-----

Wind damage in Guiuan (population 47,000) must have been catastrophic, perhaps the greatest wind damage any city on Earth has endured from a tropical cyclone in the past century.

Yes, it's a bad storm, but no one can say it was CAUSED by man's impact on the planet.

I saw David Suzuki giving a lecture about climate change and man's contribution to it on ABC this morning. He is very convincing, but even he admits that man's overpopulation is a contributing factor, and he agrees that it may be too late to do anything to save the human species.

What was most fascinating to me was his account of how people refuse to admit they are first of all ANIMALS controlled by nature, and think they can control the environment!

While I agree now that mankind may be responsible for speeding up climate change, I also agree with those that say it is probably too late to rescue humanity from a self inflicted calamity.

While people are so ignorant as to say there should be no nuclear power, but they want all the toys that need power, there is, frankly, no hope for mankind's survival under the current system.

Let's face it, how many reading this would be prepared to give up ALL carbon technology? My guess is NONE OF YOU. How many decided not to have any children because there are too many people already? Not many, I'll bet.

Let's face it, globalisation is the world's enemy, but what's the chance of changing it??????

Even Obama has bent over and taken it up the *** for corporations and globalisation, leaving his children with a bill for 17 trillion dollars and counting.

So, as I don't have any children to suffer, I'm just going to enjoy the ride while it lasts, and hope I die before it all falls down.

Huh? I was not suggesting Haiyan was caused by anything. Just noting where many in this thread seem to have their head positioned. WTH are you talking about. Nutty ramblings that proved my point.

Edited by F430murci
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Love how we whine and complain about allocation of resources that does not fit within our belief system, meanwhile many are loosing everything they have or their lives in the Phillipines right now due to a horrible typhoon. God or whatever you believe in help those people. 195 sustained with 225 gusts according to my buddy Jeff Maaters on a small and poor island with no where to go . . . This could be bad.

-----

Wind damage in Guiuan (population 47,000) must have been catastrophic, perhaps the greatest wind damage any city on Earth has endured from a tropical cyclone in the past century.

Yes, it's a bad storm, but no one can say it was CAUSED by man's impact on the planet.

I saw David Suzuki giving a lecture about climate change and man's contribution to it on ABC this morning. He is very convincing, but even he admits that man's overpopulation is a contributing factor, and he agrees that it may be too late to do anything to save the human species.

What was most fascinating to me was his account of how people refuse to admit they are first of all ANIMALS controlled by nature, and think they can control the environment!

While I agree now that mankind may be responsible for speeding up climate change, I also agree with those that say it is probably too late to rescue humanity from a self inflicted calamity.

While people are so ignorant as to say there should be no nuclear power, but they want all the toys that need power, there is, frankly, no hope for mankind's survival under the current system.

Let's face it, how many reading this would be prepared to give up ALL carbon technology? My guess is NONE OF YOU. How many decided not to have any children because there are too many people already? Not many, I'll bet.

Let's face it, globalisation is the world's enemy, but what's the chance of changing it??????

Even Obama has bent over and taken it up the *** for corporations and globalisation, leaving his children with a bill for 17 trillion dollars and counting.

So, as I don't have any children to suffer, I'm just going to enjoy the ride while it lasts, and hope I die before it all falls down.

Huh? I was not suggesting Haiyan was caused by anything. Just noting where many in this thread seem to have their head positioned. WTH are you talking about. Nutty ramblings that proved my point.

So WHY are you posting on a thread about GLOBAL WARMING???????? OFF TOPIC!!!!!!!!!

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Question: "So WHY are you posting on a thread about GLOBAL WARMING???????? OFF TOPIC!!!!!!!!!"

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Jeez, so funny what you guys worry about and where you place priorities.

Worried about off topic. Worried about whether money is being allocated for or against favorite energy resource.

Not a care in the world about true horrible human tragedies that are weather related. Have no care in the world if problems don't directly impact you and have no children who may suffer in the future.

Not sure why no thread on Haiyan. This is one of the most devestating storms imaginable. The loss of life is incredible and the economic hit is it something Phillipines can recover from anytime soon (years).

Meanwhile, lets whine about wealthy people and companies fighting about allocations of resources that may be weather related over time. Not sure if it us trying to sound uber smart or if we are just that out of touch with reality.

Edited by F430murci
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Yep, just scanned prior posts from all you self annoited weather and climate experts with the world's best interests at heart. I see nothing from you guys about the most noteable weather event in modern history causing untold human tragedy. I would say you guys have agendas elsewhere and care little about welfare of world community at large, yet so opinionated and vocal on global warmer and climate issues.

When Dr. Jeff Masters told me about the force with which Haiyan was striking, I thought OMG. Thousands are going to die.

When Thaibeachwhatanotger read about it, all he could think about was distancing Haiyan from CO2??? Nice!

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Typhoon Haiyan was indeed a tragic natural disaster, though as pointed out previously, rather off-topic in a thread about global warming.


The similarities with the global warming issue are limited to the extraordinary media hype surrounding the storm: "biggest storm in history", "one of the strongest storms in world history" or "one of the most powerful storms on record to make landfall" which were simply untrue, as the Philippine Met Agency (PAGASA) pointed out.


In fact, it only ranked as a Cat 4 storm (out of 5), and so was not a "super" anything, except in the minds of the gullible.


Second, on a longer time scale, the last decade and a half has been a very quiet time for tropical storms, quite contrary to what global warming alarmists predicted.


tropical_storms_zpsa85b240b.png


Society needs to decide whether it's going to be driven by emotion or reason; in the media, at least, emotion is clearly winning out.

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Weather evokes emotion. Long before there was any general discussion of global climate change, where I grew up there were people that were convinced that every winter was getting colder and every summer hotter and drier. Then there would a cool, wet year and warm winter and people would start talking about that.

Weather affects all of us. It's emotional.

Facts are cold and boring, but a better bet on what direction things are headed.

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And here's another of those boring facts.


The amount of cyclone energy in the Earth system is currently at its lowest since the 1970s. As CO2 has gone up, as temperatures have gone up slightly, cyclones/hurricanes have reduced in number/intensity.


It is thus completely irrational to claim "global warming causes cyclones".


global_running_ace_small_zps5feed465.png[


Not, of course, that that will stop the 'progressive' media from using every storm to berate evil capitalists and 'denialists' for standing behind the data and the rational approach to human affairs.


EDIT: Resized graphic

Edited by RickBradford
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and no of the scientists involved in the OP actually doubt MMCC.



Gee, I bet that comes as a relief to Professor Anastasios Tsonis, who finds himself on one of the Green/Left's typically charming blacklists, this one known as the 'Climate Denier list', "a list of scientists, real or imagined, pundits and loud mouths."


Like the majority of qualified scientists, Tsonis believes that carbon dioxide, all else being equal, will have a mild warming effect on the planet.


Prof Anastasios Tsonis, head of the University of Wisconsin Atmospheric Sciences Group, has recently shown that these MDOs [Multi Decadal Oscillations] move together in a synchronised way across the globe, abruptly flipping the world’s climate from a ‘warm mode’ to a ‘cold mode’ and back again in 20 to 30-year cycles.


"We have such a change now and can therefore expect 20 or 30 years of cooler temperatures."


There is, he said, a measure of additional ‘background’ warming due to human activity and greenhouse gases that runs across the MDO cycles. But he added: "I do not believe in catastrophe theories. Man-made warming is balanced by the natural cycles, and I do not trust the computer models which state that if CO2 reaches a particular level then temperatures and sea levels will rise by a given amount."


In other words: catastrophe cancelled, attempts to control CO2 absurd and represent a scandalous waste of money and resources.

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Typhoon Haiyan was indeed a tragic natural disaster, though as pointed out previously, rather off-topic in a thread about global warming.

The similarities with the global warming issue are limited to the extraordinary media hype surrounding the storm: "biggest storm in history", "one of the strongest storms in world history" or "one of the most powerful storms on record to make landfall" which were simply untrue, as the Philippine Met Agency (PAGASA) pointed out.

In fact, it only ranked as a Cat 4 storm (out of 5), and so was not a "super" anything, except in the minds of the gullible.

Second, on a longer time scale, the last decade and a half has been a very quiet time for tropical storms, quite contrary to what global warming alarmists predicted.

tropical_storms_zpsa85b240b.png

Society needs to decide whether it's going to be driven by emotion or reason; in the media, at least, emotion is clearly winning out.

Overhype. Really? 10,000 plus dead with number potentially rising sharply and the utter devestation of infrastructure. You have to be pretty whack or insensitive to claim overhype.

Selecting PAGSA 10 minute averaging estimates for advisories as gospel for no other reason than to yell over hype reflects a complete lack of grasp of the subject matter. This also undermines your ability to convey meaning data about tropical storm frequency as you ignore or have no understanding of factors leading to development of tropical storms. Saffir-Simpson scale is not directly applicable to 10-minute averaging estimates.

Jeff Masters is the go to guy on hurricanes. I am part of a group that has chased these storms for two decades in search of big waves to surf. I met Masters years ago. His forecasting on both path and intensity has been second to none which is critical for positioning and safety when tackling these beasts with a surfboard. I would trust no other on these storms when it comes to my life and safety.

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Haiyan hit Guiuan, on the Philippine island of Samar, at 4:40 am local time November 8, 2013 (20:40 UTC November 7.) Three hours before landfall, the Joint Typhoon Warning Center (JTWC) assessed Haiyans sustained winds at 195 mph, gusting to 235 mph, making it the 4th strongest tropical cyclone in world history. Satellite loops show that Haiyan weakened only slightly, if at all, in the two hours after JTWCs advisory, so the super typhoon likely made landfall with winds near 195 mph. The next JTWC intensity estimate, for 00Z UTC November 8, about three hours after landfall, put the top winds at 185 mph. Averaging together these estimates gives a strength of 190 mph an hour after landfall. Thus, Haiyan had winds of 190 - 195 mph at landfall, making it the strongest tropical cyclone on record to make landfall in world history. The previous record was held by the Atlantic's Hurricane Camille of 1969, which made landfall in Mississippi with 190 mph winds.

The Japan Meteorological Agency (JMA), which uses their own techniques to estimate typhoon strength via satellite imagery, put Haiyan's peak strength at 125 knots (145 mph), using a 10-minute averaging time for wind speeds. The Philippines weather agency (PAGASA) also uses a 10-minute averaging time for their typhoon wind advisories, and winds estimated by either JMA or PAGASA for Haiyan have appeared in the media, resulting in some confusion about what the typhoon's winds were at landfall. The averaging time used by JTWC and NHC is 1-minute, resulting in a higher wind estimate. To convert from 10-minute averaged winds to 1-minute average, one conversion factor that is commonly used is to multiply by 1.14--though lower conversion factors are sometimes used. Note that even after correcting for the difference between using 1-minute and 10-minute wind averaging times, the JMA wind estimates are well below what JTWC estimated; JMA consistently estimates weaker winds for high-end typhoons than JTWC. Since we have no actual measurements of the winds or pressure from Haiyan at landfall, we don't know which agency made a more accurate wind estimate.

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2576&page=9#commenttop

Edited by F430murci
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97% of scientists agree that there is big climate change going on, or is it some conspiracy? Interesting effect if ice caps melt model shows reduced salinity could lead to stopping gulf stream, putting Europe into the big freeze. Warning: no more football! Even if there was no change, it still makes sense to move away from fossil fuels: they will not last, we have been going thru oil stocks like there is no tomorrow. Some of the anti changers make me think of "there will always be plenty of whale oil" crowd. I am lucky: I am now old enough to hope I will not be around when the methane hits the fan, nor do I have children which would have to live thru those times to come. Shouldn't most of these comments be in the Fox News believers forum?

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My original posts on Haiyan was intended to ask people to say a little prayer for those people at the time they were getting smashed. If someone wants to politicize that or tropical storms in general, they should at least make sure he has some basic knowledge of both first. I am curious if some make the same types of mistakes when discussing AGW issues.

This statement speaks volumes about RIckbradford's knowledge of weather and his analytical abilities as it relates to weather.

"In fact, it only ranked as a Cat 4 storm (out of 5), and so was not a "super" anything, except in the minds of the gullible."

You call it a cat 4 based on 10- minute averages for advisory estimations, but even a rank amateur at following tropical storms knows that the Saffir Simpson scale is based on 1 minute averages. 1 minute averages and 10 minute averages do not yield the same results. 10 minute estimations are lower. Both the Dvorak and the 10-minute averages have limitations or underestimate storms at the extreme upper end, the former caused perhaps by limitation in availability of modeling data for the extreme upper end storms that occur with less frequency.

The NHC and JTWC use of 1 minute averages actually have a litany of supporting data for modeling purposes as US's use of hurricane hunters, buoys and reporting stations typically provide information for confirmation and modeling purposes. Sadly, the technology and resources are just not the same for the Philippine's PAGASA wind speed estimations for advisories.

Evidence of Intensity

Although pictures are still coming in and some of the worst hit areas are still cut off or not fully reporting, there are pictures that show areas of deforestation and trees that have been debarked. This was a strong storm and some of the early damage photos show more devastation than cat 4.

Huiyan's ranking

Anyhow, based on models and estimations using 1 minute average for Saffir Simpson calculations, here is where Haiyan ranks:

landfall-topten.png

Tropical storm activity not being related to CO2 or AGW

As with utilizing the wrong models for measuring intensity under Saffir Simpson, Rickbradford's charts and data do not paint a complete picture regarding formation of tropical storms. Gulf of Mexico is my home most of the year and was full time in 2010. 2010 was one of the warmest years ever and had some of the warmest ocean temps ever. We had a very inactive season. Water temperatures and air temperatures are not the sole decisive regarding tropical storm formation. Once has to take into account weather patterns (la Nino or el nino), positioning of frontal boundaries, dry air pockets, positioning of highs and anti cyclones and wind shear patterns that exists throughout tropical storm season.

Edited by F430murci
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Based on 10 minute average estimations, Haiyan was still the second strongest typhoon in JMA's searchable database and the strongest to ever make landfall.

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Winds estimated by either JMA or PAGASA for Haiyan have appeared in the media, resulting in some confusion about what the typhoon's winds were at landfall. The averaging time used by JTWC and NHC is 1-minute, resulting in a higher wind estimate than the 10-minute average winds used by JMA and PAGASA in their advisories. To convert from 10-minute averaged winds to 1-minute average, one conversion factor that is commonly used is to multiply by 1.14--though lower conversion factors are sometimes used.

JMA satellite strength estimates are consistently much lower than those from JTWC for high-end Category 5 strength typhoons, and JTWC estimates are the ones most commonly used by the hurricane research community. The JMA began issuing typhoon advisories in 1976, and a searchable database of their typhoon database at digitaltyphoon.com reveals that Haiyan is tied for second place as the strongest typhoon in history, when measured by wind speed. Haiyan was the strongest landfalling typhoon they have rated.

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2577

Edited by F430murci
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Terrible though this tragedy is, it is not unprecedented and people have no business trying to claim it was caused by 'climate change'.


As pointed out previously, science does not support such a link. The data do not support it, nor do the interpretations of the data made by the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.


Those claiming such a link are using this major tragedy to push a personal agenda.


The list of offenders include: media organizations from CBS, the BBC, SMH, the Washington and Huffington Posts, etc. which exaggerated the strength of the storm by up to 50 mph; Greenpeace (naturally); UN climate chief Christina Figueres (equally unsurprising)


It is also worth noting that, tragic as this storm is, and even if the figure of 10,000 dead is sustained (the latest official figure from NDRRMC is 1774), Haiyan would not be among the top 35 deadliest cyclones in history, according to Weather Underground.


For a sober assessment of what it calls 'the million-dollar-question' (of whether climate change can be linked to tropical storm frequency/intensity), the journal Nature offers this. http://www.nature.com/news/did-climate-change-cause-typhoon-haiyan-1.14139


Q: Are such storms getting worse in a warming world?

A: This is the one-million-dollar question, and there is no scientific consensus on how to answer it yet.

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Afraid he is right even though neigh sayers like rickbradford say otherwise, but they demonstrate time and time again they have no concept on basic weather and climatology principals.

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Experts say Typhoon Haiyan was about as strong as it could theoretically get when it swept through http://m.nbcnews.com/science/typhoon-haiyan-pushed-limit-bigger-storms-are-coming-2D11577486the Philippines, killing thousands of people and driving hundreds of thousands from their homes. But intensity limits have been rising over decades past and climate models suggest they will keep rising over the decades to come, with the potential for bigger and more devastating storms.

"The tragedy of this particular storm is that it reached its limit just about the time it made landfall," Kerry Emanuel, a climate scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, told NBC News.

http://m.nbcnews.com/science/typhoon-haiyan-pushed-limit-bigger-storms-are-coming-2D11577486

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Terrible though this tragedy is, it is not unprecedented and people have no business trying to claim it was caused by 'climate change'.

As pointed out previously, science does not support such a link. The data do not support it, nor do the interpretations of the data made by the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Those claiming such a link are using this major tragedy to push a personal agenda.

The list of offenders include: media organizations from CBS, the BBC, SMH, the Washington and Huffington Posts, etc. which exaggerated the strength of the storm by up to 50 mph; Greenpeace (naturally); UN climate chief Christina Figueres (equally unsurprising)

It is also worth noting that, tragic as this storm is, and even if the figure of 10,000 dead is sustained (the latest official figure from NDRRMC is 1774), Haiyan would not be among the top 35 deadliest cyclones in history, according to Weather Underground.

For a sober assessment of what it calls 'the million-dollar-question' (of whether climate change can be linked to tropical storm frequency/intensity), the journal Nature offers this. http://www.nature.com/news/did-climate-change-cause-typhoon-haiyan-1.14139

Q: Are such storms getting worse in a warming world?

A: This is the one-million-dollar question, and there is no scientific consensus on how to answer it yet.

Why not admit it. You have no grasp on the basic concepts of weather and climatology. You just search the Internet or without any support state half truths to support a political position.. Sorry bud, with your latest statements you completely demonstrated your ignorance when it comes to weather.

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I see that my suggestion to discuss this storm rationally rather than emotionally fell on deaf ears.


Still, even scientists who in general terms believe that global warming will tend to increase storm activity have shown a welcome reluctance to try to link Haiyan to climate change. Thus, Kerry Emanuel, quoted (partly) above:


"That part of the ocean, the Western Pacific, in November is pretty juicy," he said. "It has a high thermodynamic limit. That limit has been going up in time, perhaps in response to global warming. It's a little hard to say that for sure."


Now, if only the media, NGOs and other hysterics could learn the same sort of restraint.


Emanuel, by the way, is about as far as you can get from a filthy oil-funded denialist. In fact, he believes he is under constant attack from filthy oil-funded denialists and their "machine".


This "machine … has been highly successful in branding climate scientists as a bunch of sandal-wearing, fruit-juice drinking leftist radicals engaged in a massive conspiracy to return us to agrarian society…"


Golly!


EDIT: grammar

Edited by RickBradford
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From the 'science is settled' department.


'Consensus' scientists have been scrabbling around trying to find a plausible mechanism for the 'pause' -- the well-documented and accepted fact that global temperatures have not risen since 1996 despite a large increase in atmospheric CO2.


In 2010, Leeds University, UK, nailed it: it was the Antarctic ozone hole.


"The Antarctic ozone hole was once regarded as one of the biggest environmental threats, but the discovery of a previously undiscovered feedback shows that it has instead helped to shield this region from carbon-induced warming over the past two decades."


In 2013, the Free University of Amsterdam nailed it: it was the repair of the Antarctic ozone hole.


"Warming has also eased off since the mid-1990s. Estrada's study links that to the 1987 Montreal Protocol that banned the release of CFCs — once used widely in refrigerants, solvents and propellants — to stop ozone depletion, which allowed more warming solar radiation to reach Earth."


So there it is: the ozone hole cools the earth and simultaneously warms it.


The alternative explanation, that CO2 is not such an important driver of global temperature after all, seems not to have made it onto their radar.

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