Problem with Incandescent Light bulbs in an Energy-Saving building.

[easybullet3]

my condo had all energy-saving light bulbs installed.

I got a Thai Electrician to swap the attachments so that I can fit the 'old style' incandescent bulbs.

When I switched them on, I saw they are REALLY DULL !!!

a 60 watt bulb is shining like a 25 watt bulb! and a 100 Watt bulb is even Dimmer!!!! (it makes no sense!!)

- why would a 100 watt bulb shine less than a 60 watt bulb??

also there is a long DELAY for the lights to turn on... (especially in the bathrooms)

I bought an LED light, and it works perfectly BUT they are VERY expensive.

can anyone explain to me why this strange thing has happened?

is it because of my condos energy supply to the lighting system? is it lower amps or something?

I appreciate your replies

[cooked]

I can't tell why this happened, but I am interested to know why you changed the bulbs? I replaced my incandescents one by one as they died and had no problems. Maybe you don't know that you can get higher powered energy savers to suit needs?

[Crossy]

Did your sparks actually remove the CFL ballasts?

[Ackybang]

Hello easybullet3 -

I feel like I've finished a degree in lights recently, after designing my lighting layouts and sourcing bulbs / fittings out of the many choices available.

What type of bulbs were you using before ? You said you've changed the fittings to accept regular incandescents - do you mean eddison (screw-in) fittings ?

How about a photo ?

Your problem might be you're readjusting to the incandescents after using cfls. These bulbs generally have different colour temperatures and rendering indices - incandescents are usually around 2700 K, whereas cfls usually range from 3500 - 5000 K.

The other problem might very well be, if your apartment was wired up for specific energy savers, the sparx has failed to remove ballasts - although it doesn't sound like you've been using cfls - or it is a system that's geared up for low voltage lighting applications using a transformer - I refer to the fact that you said LED's work very well.

Crossy would probably know - if the lighting circuit was on D/C, or low voltage - would it still drive a normal incandescent, albeit dimmly ?

Why did you change out energy savers ? They come in a wide variety of tones, last longer, use less power, and the price is coming down all the time.

In terms of lighting, I've been trying to future proof my build against energy usage, aswell as the fact that in not too long a time frame, incandescents will be obsolete. To that end, I've sourced dimmers and impulse switches that are led compatible.

The cheapest LED's I've found are made by Lamptan - their new range work out at about 180 baht per bulb, if you buy a job lot. They're on a normal eddison fitting, and come in spot, or normal configuration. 50,000 hours guarantee - start at 4 Watts - many types of stye and tone.. (I love the idea of being able to light up a whole large room using the equivalent electricity of 1 60 Watt incandescent).

A Year ago, the cheapest branded LED's I could find were around 500 baht - maybe next Year around 100 ?

Whilst I'm typing about it - has anyone been able to source dimmable LED's here in Thailand ?

Again. in the merchants, I see them dimming LED's that quite specifically say they are not suitable for this application - what does this mean in real terms, and what are the implications for bulb and switches in this case ?

Hope this helps + someone can answer my questions also.

Thanks.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Ackybang

[easybullet3]

Hello easybullet3 -

What type of bulbs were you using before ? You said you've changed the fittings to accept regular incandescents - do you mean eddison (screw-in) fittings ?

How about a photo ?

Your problem might be you're readjusting to the incandescents after using cfls. These bulbs generally have different colour temperatures and rendering indices - incandescents are usually around 2700 K, whereas cfls usually range from 3500 - 5000 K.

The other problem might very well be, if your apartment was wired up for specific energy savers, the sparx has failed to remove ballasts - although it doesn't sound like you've been using cfls - or it is a system that's geared up for low voltage lighting applications using a transformer - I refer to the fact that you said LED's work very well.

Crossy would probably know - if the lighting circuit was on D/C, or low voltage - would it still drive a normal incandescent, albeit dimmly ?

Why did you change out energy savers ?

The cheapest LED's I've found are made by Lamptan - their new range work out at about 180 baht per bulb.

Hi Ackybang,

Thanks for your long message...

to answer your questions:

Before I was using CFL (Osram Delux D 13W/21- 840) - They had the 'pin-mount' connections.

So, I changed ALL the pin-mounts to standard Edison Screw mounts (E27).

here is a Photo:

The Incandescent lights are DEFINITELY not shining at their correct value at all.

probably just 30% of what they ought to be!

and the weirdest thing is that the higher the wattage, the lower it shines!!! (ie: a 40 Watt is shining brighter than a 100 Watt !!!)

Here is a Photo of a 60 Watt incandescent in its new mount (in my ceiling) compared to a 40 Watt incandescent in my Bedroom Lamp Shade (plugged into the Mains).

as you can see, it's are definitely shining WAY below what they are supposed to!!

its probably as you guess (that the condo I live in only gives a low voltage to its lighting circuits???)

LED's are just fine,,, but pricey.

you mentioned a brand I haven't heard of: Lamptan. - Where can you buy them? I only saw Phillips and Sylvania in the shops.

PS: I have never seen any 'dimmable' LED's so far in bkk.

PPS: I removed the Energy Saving lights coz I really dont like them and they produce tonnes of EMF and UV,, and also they contain Mercury. I see no reason to have any of the above in my home where I live.

[Crossy]

As I noted earlier, did you or your sparks remove the CFL ballasts??

Those pin connect CFL tubes have a separate ballast which drives the tube.

[Ackybang]

Hi easybullet3 -

Lamptan are a Thai concern, as far as I know, and are becoming very popular - they are producing a wide variety of energy saving, good quality products, and are competitive price wise too.

You can find them in most Thai Wadsadu's - Global home, etc - any big store.

The LED's I mentioned have just come out, and you would have to buy a few to get them at that price. If you find the rep in the Thai Wadsadu, they can confirm a price with head office within 1 day - in fact, anything you buy there in bulk, they can do the same, and get you a substantial discount.

I've found a led dimmer supplier in Bkk - selling Megaman products, but I don't think they will be cheap - but when you average out the cost in relation to the lifespan and power consumption, they do work out cheaper in the long run.

If you're into environmental concerns - their products do seem to have a lot of thought put into them, if you check out their website.

Crossy knows his stuff, so I would have a sparx check to see if the ballasts have been removed, or if there's a transformer in there somewhere.

Good luck.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Ackybang

[ETatBKK]

hi easybullet3

your original CFL is a NON-integrated compact fluorescent lamp with a PL-L socket, that has no build-in ballast. meaning, somewhere in the system circuit there is a remote ballast that cutting down to the low voltage matching the non-integrated CFL. replacing the E27 screw mount only fit the physical installation, but not the electrical specifications. you need to remove the remote ballast somewhere in the system, usually hiding 1 to 2m in the ceiling above the light.

then the FIRST question still - why you change it to incandescent bulb ? Thailand has quite unstable voltage supply and quite a bit damage to incandescent bulb. CFL is more stable and save some energy. is it a aesthetic issue, or else ?

Philips dimmable LED is available in Thailand, at 'some' HomePro and Central Chidlom. price is double than those outside Thailand. I bought a box in my last home trip.

[easybullet3]

your original CFL is a NON-integrated compact fluorescent lamp with a PL-L socket, that has no build-in ballast. meaning, somewhere in the system circuit there is a remote ballast that cutting down to the low voltage matching the non-integrated CFL. replacing the E27 screw mount only fit the physical installation, but not the electrical specifications. you need to remove the remote ballast somewhere in the system, usually hiding 1 to 2m in the ceiling above the light.

then the FIRST question still - why you change it to incandescent bulb ? Thailand has quite unstable voltage supply and quite a bit damage to incandescent bulb. CFL is more stable and save some energy. is it a aesthetic issue, or else ?

Thanks for the detailed info on ballasts (i was unaware).

do you mean that there would be a ballast for EVERY individual light? or just ONE for the entire room? what do they look like? coz when I changed the mounts, it was just wire coming from the ceiling... and as far back as I can see there is just wire.

- is it possible that there is just ONE ballast for an entire room or entire condo? if so, then I have a very low chance on finding it, no?

to answer your question about why i am changing from CFL back to Incandescent :

>> I removed the Energy Saving lights coz I really dont like them and they produce tonnes of EMF and UV,, and also they contain Mercury. I see no reason to have them in my home where I live.

[easybullet3]

Hi easybullet3 -

Lamptan are a Thai concern, as far as I know, and are becoming very popular - they are producing a wide variety of energy saving, good quality products, and are competitive price wise too.

You can find them in most Thai Wadsadu's - Global home, etc - any big store.

The LED's I mentioned have just come out, and you would have to buy a few to get them at that price. If you find the rep in the Thai Wadsadu, they can confirm a price with head office within 1 day - in fact, anything you buy there in bulk, they can do the same, and get you a substantial discount.

I've found a led dimmer supplier in Bkk - selling Megaman products, but I don't think they will be cheap - but when you average out the cost in relation to the lifespan and power consumption, they do work out cheaper in the long run.

If you're into environmental concerns - their products do seem to have a lot of thought put into them, if you check out their website.

Crossy knows his stuff, so I would have a sparx check to see if the ballasts have been removed, or if there's a transformer in there somewhere.

Good luck.

Thanks for the info again...

I will check about the ballasts (i was unaware).

would there would be a ballast for EVERY individual light? or just ONE for the entire room? what do they look like? coz when I changed the mounts, it was just wire coming from the ceiling... and as far back as I can see there is just wire.

- is it possible that there is just ONE ballast for an entire room or entire condo? if so, then I have a very low chance on finding it, no?

[easybullet3]

As I noted earlier, did you or your sparks remove the CFL ballasts??

Those pin connect CFL tubes have a separate ballast which drives the tube.

Thanks for the info,,

I will check about the ballasts (i was unaware).

would there would be a ballast for EVERY individual light? or just ONE for the entire room? what do they look like? coz when I changed the mounts, it was just wire coming from the ceiling... and as far back as I can see there is just wire.

- is it possible that there is just ONE ballast for an entire room or entire condo? if so, then I have a very low chance on finding it, no?

[Crossy]

There would be a ballast for each lamp, it's usually part of or close to the fitting. I suppose they could all be located together somewhere, these modern low-energy buildings are not something I've had a great deal of experience with.

A little more research on my part revealed that some of the 2-pin CFLs do have built-in ballasts (just to confuse everyone), so that may not be the issue. Can you post an image of the CFL lamp itself showing any markings, that should help determine if it's a built in ballast or not.

EDIT Reading your earlier posts I see the lamp is an Osram Delux D 13W/21- 840 http://www.l-and-e.com/download_file.php?torken=14-00053_CS.PDF these DO require a ballast and it will likely be a magnetic one (heavy and fairly large), time to go a-hunting.

BTW. These conventional CFLs produce no more RF and other nasties than regular fluorescents, if you don't like the colour get some warm white tubes. We have no incandescent lamps in our home (apart from the big 1,500W halogen floodlights used for barbecues), everything is CFL or LED.

[ETatBKK]

your original CFL is a NON-integrated compact fluorescent lamp with a PL-L socket, that has no build-in ballast. meaning, somewhere in the system circuit there is a remote ballast that cutting down to the low voltage matching the non-integrated CFL. replacing the E27 screw mount only fit the physical installation, but not the electrical specifications. you need to remove the remote ballast somewhere in the system, usually hiding 1 to 2m in the ceiling above the light.

then the FIRST question still - why you change it to incandescent bulb ? Thailand has quite unstable voltage supply and quite a bit damage to incandescent bulb. CFL is more stable and save some energy. is it a aesthetic issue, or else ?

Thanks for the detailed info on ballasts (i was unaware).

do you mean that there would be a ballast for EVERY individual light? or just ONE for the entire room? what do they look like? coz when I changed the mounts, it was just wire coming from the ceiling... and as far back as I can see there is just wire.

- is it possible that there is just ONE ballast for an entire room or entire condo? if so, then I have a very low chance on finding it, no?

to answer your question about why i am changing from CFL back to Incandescent :

>> I removed the Energy Saving lights coz I really dont like them and they produce tonnes of EMF and UV,, and also they contain Mercury. I see no reason to have them in my home where I live.

proper way of installing ballast for non-integrated compact fluorescent lamp, one ballast one lamp and the ballast should be kept within 2m. in this case, you may able to trace the ballast that is attached to the wall above the ceiling, or to the ceiling. some Thai technicians install one-to-many ballast though.

centralised ballast not popular here. if this is installed, this should be within your own wiring system, behind the consumer unit.

agree with Crossy, compact fluorescent lamp has far less EMF and heavy metal than those of incandescent, from the production to the consumption. in EU, incandescent already banned.

your original long PL-L compact fluorescent lamp, it used to be installed with the luminaire. there are many variances of CFL luminaires and CFL available, you could also replace the complete unit. nevertheless, find the ballast, remove it and install E27 screw mount, then you have millions of options. LED is good for task lighting or spot lighting. LED for general lighting is still expensive and still issue of the balanced colour, or the white light.