US government shuts down as Congress misses deadline

[notmyself]

How is the deficit spending out of control?

About ten minutes of searching gave me these two charts below. Of course, this will start a "Battle of the Charts". And yes, charts and statistics, like polls, can be adjusted and twisted to support just about any point of view. But even without these charts, for an individual, company, township, city, state, or nation to continuously spend more than it takes in, and continuously increase such deficit spending is not fiscally responsible. Do we want to turn into the "Greece" of the western hemisphere?

If individuals had credit cards that allowed unlimited deficit charging without any control, how many individuals would have the self-control/fiscal discipline to control their own spending? Hardly any. But with individuals, eventually the bank/credit union turns off the tap.

Why do we think our federal government, made up of individual people, somehow will have more self-control/fiscal discipline. Especially when they can use such deficit spending to please specific voting blocs and in effect, buy those votes. And these same people can also increase their own credit limit!

Gross Public Debt FY2000 to FY2018.png Total Spending FY2000 to FY2018.png

Both the charts above are from http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us

The charts are debt related, not deficit related. Is the deficit on an upward or downward trend?

Edited October 11, 2013 by notmyself

[Publicus]

Some people simply and plainly are not in contact with reality in this shutdown scheme and its purposes and goals.

These tea party radicals respond to voices they hear while out hunting in the woods instead to the facts before them in Washington.

You forgot the third line in your comment. Here, this will cover it for you:

These blind and unquestioning worshipers of their infallible Messiah Obama.

The post you make is OTT, extreme, and plunges deep into the realm of absurd political rhetoric that consciously and deliberately misrepresents - grossly misrepresents.

You really seek to try to denigrate.

Obama and I share common mainstream views. Neither of us hears voices. We rather look at facts.

[Publicus]

Some people simply and plainly are not in contact with reality in this shutdown scheme and its purposes and goals.

Doing nothing but parroting dishonest Democrat party talking points fits right in there.

Here's the whole of the two sentence quote, which I'd like to reproduce since you conveniently omitted the second sentence which is relevant and material.

Some people simply and plainly are not in contact with reality in this shutdown scheme and its purposes and goals.

These tea party radicals respond to voices they hear while out hunting in the woods instead to the facts before them in Washington.

[Publicus]

How is the deficit spending out of control?

About ten minutes of searching gave me these two charts below. Of course, this will start a "Battle of the Charts". And yes, charts and statistics, like polls, can be adjusted and twisted to support just about any point of view. But even without these charts, for an individual, company, township, city, state, or nation to continuously spend more than it takes in, and continuously increase such deficit spending is not fiscally responsible. Do we want to turn into the "Greece" of the western hemisphere?

If individuals had credit cards that allowed unlimited deficit charging without any control, how many individuals would have the self-control/fiscal discipline to control their own spending? Hardly any. But with individuals, eventually the bank/credit union turns off the tap.

Why do we think our federal government, made up of individual people, somehow will have more self-control/fiscal discipline. Especially when they can use such deficit spending to please specific voting blocs and in effect, buy those votes. And these same people can also increase their own credit limit!

Gross Public Debt FY2000 to FY2018.png Total Spending FY2000 to FY2018.png

Both the charts above are from http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us

That which to the Republican party are data, are to the Democratic party the American people.

[notmyself]

That which to the Republican party are data, are to the Democratic party the American people.

It's not even the data requested! Ask for deficit figures and get debt figures. If the Republicans don't know the difference then no wonder they are unhappy.

[chuckd]

Did you not read my post which is directly above yours?

What would YOU do if you had maxed out all of your credit cards? Would you get more credit cards, or cut your spending?

I would do B and B.

If I do not get more credit then I will default, the loans (debt) will get called in and I will be bankrupt or insolvent. Basic math.. not even economics really. I would then try to reduce weekly/ monthly/ annual outgoings until such time as my income is higher with the knowledge that obviously, if my outgoings are reduced too much then I will not be able to generate income which defeats the entire purpose. With the world economy that way it has been for the last 4-5 years I would not expect to turn a profit (income>outgoings) by now never mind reducing my debt. More than math but still less than economics 101.

What is the deficit level now and what was it in 2009 - 2012?

It's not so hard to find really, assuming your internet provider isn't blocking Google.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html

[Baloo22]

That which to the Republican party are data, are to the Democratic party the American people.

It's not even the data requested! Ask for deficit figures and get debt figures. If the Republicans don't know the difference then no wonder they are unhappy.

You certainly have your whine-o-meter pegged! You're not paying me for the provided data. So, if you don't like it, stop being so lazy and go get your own.

[beechguy]

That which to the Republican party are data, are to the Democratic party the American people.

It's not even the data requested! Ask for deficit figures and get debt figures. If the Republicans don't know the difference then no wonder they are unhappy.

Possibly, but not as stupid as people that can't be bothered to use the search function themelves. Are you looking for something like this?http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html

[Baloo22]

Some people simply and plainly are not in contact with reality in this shutdown scheme and its purposes and goals.

These tea party radicals respond to voices they hear while out hunting in the woods instead to the facts before them in Washington.

You forgot the third line in your comment. Here, this will cover it for you:

These blind and unquestioning worshipers of their infallible Messiah Obama.

The post you make is OTT, extreme, and plunges deep into the realm of absurd political rhetoric that consciously and deliberately misrepresents - grossly misrepresents. You really seek to try to denigrate. Obama and I share common mainstream views. Neither of us hears voices. We rather look at facts.

"The post you make is OTT, extreme, and plunges deep into the realm of absurd political rhetoric that consciously and deliberately misrepresents - grossly misrepresents. You really seek to try to denigrate."

Pot ---> Kettle

If you have so much difficulty taking it, I strongly suggest that you stop trying to dish it out !!

[notmyself]

That which to the Republican party are data, are to the Democratic party the American people.

It's not even the data requested! Ask for deficit figures and get debt figures. If the Republicans don't know the difference then no wonder they are unhappy.

Possibly, but not as stupid as people that can't be bothered to use the search function themelves. Are you looking for something like this?http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html

To be fair, some people can't even be bothered to understand the difference between debt and deficit even when pointed out a number of times.

So to say the deficit is out of control is wrong?

[Publicus]

Some people simply and plainly are not in contact with reality in this shutdown scheme and its purposes and goals.

These tea party radicals respond to voices they hear while out hunting in the woods instead to the facts before them in Washington.

You forgot the third line in your comment. Here, this will cover it for you:

These blind and unquestioning worshipers of their infallible Messiah Obama.

The post you make is OTT, extreme, and plunges deep into the realm of absurd political rhetoric that consciously and deliberately misrepresents - grossly misrepresents. You really seek to try to denigrate. Obama and I share common mainstream views. Neither of us hears voices. We rather look at facts.

"The post you make is OTT, extreme, and plunges deep into the realm of absurd political rhetoric that consciously and deliberately misrepresents - grossly misrepresents. You really seek to try to denigrate."

Pot ---> Kettle

If you have so much difficulty taking it, I strongly suggest that you stop trying to dish it out !!

The focus is always on the disher-outer.

[Publicus]

That which to the Republican party are data, are to the Democratic party the American people.

It's not even the data requested! Ask for deficit figures and get debt figures. If the Republicans don't know the difference then no wonder they are unhappy.

Possibly, but not as stupid as people that can't be bothered to use the search function themelves. Are you looking for something like this?http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html

C'mon, everyone knows the burden of making the argument lies with the presenter. You don't make deductive or summery statements while telling the audience that they themselves have to find the data that supports your arguments and conclusions.

Where'd you go to school?!

Or did you?!

[beechguy]

That which to the Republican party are data, are to the Democratic party the American people.

It's not even the data requested! Ask for deficit figures and get debt figures. If the Republicans don't know the difference then no wonder they are unhappy.

Possibly, but not as stupid as people that can't be bothered to use the search function themelves. Are you looking for something like this?http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html

C'mon, everyone knows the burden of making the argument lies with the presenter. You don't make deductive or summery statements while telling the audience that they themselves have to find the data that supports your arguments and conclusions.

Where'd you go to school?!

Or did you?!

I wasn't the one making the argument about the deficit, etc. at this time, so why would I? However, your comments do suggest, that you have had too much exposure to Washington, and have forgotten that we do not work for them, they work for us.

[Publicus]

It's not even the data requested! Ask for deficit figures and get debt figures. If the Republicans don't know the difference then no wonder they are unhappy.

Possibly, but not as stupid as people that can't be bothered to use the search function themelves. Are you looking for something like this?http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html

C'mon, everyone knows the burden of making the argument lies with the presenter. You don't make deductive or summery statements while telling the audience that they themselves have to find the data that supports your arguments and conclusions.

Where'd you go to school?!

Or did you?!

I wasn't the one making the argument about the deficit, etc. at this time, so why would I? However, your comments do suggest, that you have had too much exposure to Washington, and have forgotten that we do not work for them, they work for us.

You are trying to defend and thereby associate yourself with the absurd position of the person trying to make a ridiculous and eminently laughable case.

This is anyway about the lunar right wing tea party Republicans in Washington and their Confederate supporters and boosters back in their home districts and states.

Nonetheless, I can say to you I haven't worked in Washington in 22 years. That makes me pretty much removed from the place, its ways, the people there. I never liked the people there especially and in particular. I also can tell you I don't miss it in the least - no, not in the least. I consider I accomplished a great deal, but there always comes a point one hits a brick wall, i.e., things become absurd. That is, after one acquires power, one has to spend 80% of his time protecting that power, 20% of the time exercising it to accomplish things. After too much time doing the 80% part, I at long last left the whole thing behind me forever.

The insights however remain vivid and applicable even today. I wuz there during Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, which made it quite a ride.

Don't you wish you knew what I know of the place, the people there, the ways of the people and of the place. You know, one always comes down on the side of knowledge, but there's always the sentiment that sometimes you wish you didn't know.

[samran]

Debt out of control. Blah blah blah. How about raising taxes some, so you have a government which is paid for by the people rather than some bond holder in China?

Oh, I forgot, you guys don't like the 'T' word. So debt and deficit it is for you guys, while living in the fairytale world that you can cut taxes forever and nothing will go wrong.

[NeverSure]

The chances of a "re-open" government are much greater when Obama and Reid are not acting like spoiled, petulant, children and get in there an negotiate their differences with the People's Representatives. And get control of the federal government's out-of-control debt spending!

We should remember how important it is to stop and reverse the ever increasing debt being charged up by the federal government. A sense of responsibility to our children and grandchildren and those that come after them; Those that will have to pay the massive and ever increasing debt. Without the pressure of a government shutdown or refusal to raise the debt-ceiling, the chances of getting Obama and the Democrats to reduce the out-of-control spending are nil.

NBC/WSJ poll: Shutdown debate damages GOP

<snip>

How are all these polls you repeatedly post and blather about going to help my grand-children pay off the massive and growing federal debt.

The debt caused by continuous out-of-control deficit spending. These polls and their blah-blah are not cutting-up the government's big credit-card!!

If this were an individual, a family, or even a private company, that continually overspends, charges on the credit card, and doesn't make payments; eventually the bank/credit union/company or whoever issued the credit card will put a stop to it. They'll freeze the credit limit (the "debt ceiling") !!

But we are talking about the federal government here. They have no such thing as self-control or fiscal discipline. And they can continually raise their own credit limit. A certain recipe for fiscal disaster! Adults do need to make the decision to cut up the credit card!

An individual, a family or a business is not a government.

While the family is an institution of society, government is a literal institution of the nation state.

While a business is a profit making enterprise, the government is a service, In the democracy the United States is (yea, a republic) the government is determined by the majority will.

The shutdown radicals are an aberration of the system, given that planned and willful shutdowns of the government have been rare occasions. The most recent 1995-96 willful shutdown also was a disaster for its Republican initiators, just as the radical Republicans are the losers in this, their wildly conceived and executed shutdown now affecting all of us.

You like to have the world laughing at us? Shaking its collective head because of what you do?!

The banana Republicans.

"The most recent 1995-96 willful shutdown also was a disaster for its Republican initiators..."

Yeah right. It was just like this one in that Republicans held the house and Democrat Clinton was POTUS. Gingrich, a much tougher Speaker of The House, held Clinton's feet to the fire.

Was a disaster for the Republicans? Well, the Republicans got their balanced budget even out of Clinton, and went on to win the Presidency for the next 8 years, the Senate for the next ten years, and to hold the power of government.

How is that a disaster for the Republicans?

As they say, it ain't over until it's over. Obama is such an obvious amateur that the people might just like to see a real man or woman come the next election.

Edited October 12, 2013 by NeverSure

[Publicus]

NBC/WSJ poll: Shutdown debate damages GOP

<snip>

How are all these polls you repeatedly post and blather about going to help my grand-children pay off the massive and growing federal debt.

The debt caused by continuous out-of-control deficit spending. These polls and their blah-blah are not cutting-up the government's big credit-card!!

If this were an individual, a family, or even a private company, that continually overspends, charges on the credit card, and doesn't make payments; eventually the bank/credit union/company or whoever issued the credit card will put a stop to it. They'll freeze the credit limit (the "debt ceiling") !!

But we are talking about the federal government here. They have no such thing as self-control or fiscal discipline. And they can continually raise their own credit limit. A certain recipe for fiscal disaster! Adults do need to make the decision to cut up the credit card!

An individual, a family or a business is not a government.

While the family is an institution of society, government is a literal institution of the nation state.

While a business is a profit making enterprise, the government is a service, In the democracy the United States is (yea, a republic) the government is determined by the majority will.

The shutdown radicals are an aberration of the system, given that planned and willful shutdowns of the government have been rare occasions. The most recent 1995-96 willful shutdown also was a disaster for its Republican initiators, just as the radical Republicans are the losers in this, their wildly conceived and executed shutdown now affecting all of us.

You like to have the world laughing at us? Shaking its collective head because of what you do?!

The banana Republicans.

"The most recent 1995-96 willful shutdown also was a disaster for its Republican initiators..."

Yeah right. It was just like this one in that Republicans held the house and Democrat Clinton was POTUS. Gingrich, a much tougher Speaker of The House, held Clinton's feet to the fire.

Was a disaster for the Republicans? Well, the Republicans got their balanced budget even out of Clinton, and went on to win the Presidency for the next 8 years, the Senate for the next ten years, and to hold the power of government.

How is that a disaster for the Republicans?

As they say, it ain't over until it's over. Obama is such an obvious amateur that the people might just like to see a real man or woman come the next election.

Republicans are working out the terms of their surrender.

It's a repeat of the disastrous result of the Republicans' 1995-96 government shutdown, after which Gingrich lost the speakership (Boehner was one of the insurrectionists).

You are missing a lot presently and over an appreciable period of time, so I thought I'd point it all out to you in direct terms.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Publicus

[midas]

EXCLUSIVE: Just 51,000 people completed Obamacare applications during the website's first week, out of tens of millions of Americans in 36 states.

The Congressional Budget Office says Obamacare needs at least 7 million customers to stay afloat financially

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2452537/Administration-sources-Obamacare-website-received-just-51-000-completed-insurance-applications.html

[wilcopops]

EXCLUSIVE: Just 51,000 people completed Obamacare applications during the website's first week, out of tens of millions of Americans in 36 states.

The Congressional Budget Office says Obamacare needs at least 7 million customers to stay afloat financially

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2452537/Administration-sources-Obamacare-website-received-just-51-000-completed-insurance-applications.html

not sure this is relevent.

[midas]

EXCLUSIVE: Just 51,000 people completed Obamacare applications during the website's first week, out of tens of millions of Americans in 36 states.

The Congressional Budget Office says Obamacare needs at least 7 million customers to stay afloat financially

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2452537/Administration-sources-Obamacare-website-received-just-51-000-completed-insurance-applications.html

not sure this is relevent.

I would have thought it is highly relevant in so much as if they can't get it up and running for whatever reason, they may have to postpone it for a year anyway which is what the Republicans have been asking for all along in these negotiations? pretty embarrassing for the Democrats..............................

[wilcopops]

EXCLUSIVE: Just 51,000 people completed Obamacare applications during the website's first week, out of tens of millions of Americans in 36 states.

The Congressional Budget Office says Obamacare needs at least 7 million customers to stay afloat financially

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2452537/Administration-sources-Obamacare-website-received-just-51-000-completed-insurance-applications.html

not sure this is relevent.

I would have thought it is highly relevant in so much as if they can't get it up and running for whatever reason, they may have to postpone it for a year anyway which is what the Republicans have been asking for all along in these negotiations? pretty embarrassing for the Democrats..............................

this is a relatively unimportant piece of legislation that brings the U.S. one step towards joing the rest of the "civilised" world and the republicans are prepared to take the entire country to it's knees causing uphold harm and pain to the people of US because they can't get want they want on this single issue? that sounds like dog-in-the-manger to me. and the republicans

[samran]

Given the exchanges are relatively new, and many not set up, and some red states playing hardball, then isn't it a bit early to judge the sucess of a programme? Based on evidence from places like Australia, which have incentives to get people to also take out private health insurance, people don't generally think about it until tax time when they become aware of the tax penalties for not having private health insurance and then take it out.

So it is a bit rich running around after the first week and saying 'see, it isn't working'.

Having said that, the only way to get people to take out the right level of health care is to make it universal, automatic and based on need, not on what you've paid. You can never predict what level of medical care you need, and if left to a private market, like the US still is, people still will refuse to insure, or under insure. The exchanges will bring health care to many via the tax sting if they don't, but not to all unfortunately.

[midas]

Given the exchanges are relatively new, and many not set up, and some red states playing hardball, then isn't it a bit early to judge the sucess of a programme? Based on evidence from places like Australia, which have incentives to get people to also take out private health insurance, people don't generally think about it until tax time when they become aware of the tax penalties for not having private health insurance and then take it out.

So it is a bit rich running around after the first week and saying 'see, it isn't working'.

Having said that, the only way to get people to take out the right level of health care is to make it universal, automatic and based on need, not on what you've paid. You can never predict what level of medical care you need, and if left to a private market, like the US still is, people still will refuse to insure, or under insure. The exchanges will bring health care to many via the tax sting if they don't, but not to all unfortunately.

from the article.................

The open enrollment period for Obamacare coverage is slated to last for six months. If the first week's total were an indication of how many Americans will sign up during that time through the Obama administration's website, its final tally would reach a paltry 1.32 million.

a long long way from 7 million .............?

[MaxYakov]

OK liberals/progressives/statists. Get your out favorite inflammatory insult list. Hot items this week are: banana Republican, right-wing, neo-confederate, extortionist, nihilist, idiotic, treasonous, jihad (or fill in your favorite insult - feel free use racist and obscene terms):

</sarc>:

“Obamacare is really, I think, the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery. It is slavery in a way because it is making all of us subservient to the government.”

Dr. Ben Carson in a speech at the Value Voter’s Summit Friday (Oct 11, 2013)

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/10/11/dr-carson-obamacare-the-worst-thing-that-has-happened-since-slavery/

Dr. Carson's Wiki Bio Link (for the Google-challenged):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson

But, hey! What does he know, right?

And yes, I believe this is relevant because wasn't de-funding or delaying (or the inability to) of the ACA the trigger for this so-called shutdown?

Edited October 12, 2013 by MaxYakov

[samran]

@midas, let's speak again after tax time. I know American exceptionalism means you blokes are loath to admit other places in the world can do things differently and better, but it happens you know?

As for MaxYakov. Of course this doctor is going to say that. Health systems which are a little more universal in nature mean that he'll only be able to buy two BMW's annually instead of his usual three. Listening to the most self interested parties in debates such as this does no one any good. The doctors union, otherwise known as the AMA, are ultimately there to represent their members, not patients, though they will still present their self interested arguments under the auspices of patient care.

As for being slaves? Ask the citizens of every other democratic OECD country (yes their are others who do democracy too) whether having access to medical care makes you feel like a slave, and they'll laugh in your face. Not having to worry about your health care is the ultimate freedom.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted. Please address the topic.

[F430murci]

OK liberals/progressives/statists. Get your out favorite inflammatory insult list. Hot items this week are: banana Republican, right-wing, neo-confederate, extortionist, nihilist, idiotic, treasonous, jihad (or fill in your favorite insult - feel free use racist and obscene terms):

</sarc>:

Obamacare is really, I think, the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery. It is slavery in a way because it is making all of us subservient to the government.

Dr. Ben Carson in a speech at the Value Voters Summit Friday (Oct 11, 2013)

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/10/11/dr-carson-obamacare-the-worst-thing-that-has-happened-since-slavery/

Dr. Carson's Wiki Bio Link (for the Google-challenged):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson

But, hey! What does he know, right?

And yes, I believe this is relevant because wasn't de-funding or delaying (or the inability to) of the ACA the trigger for this so-called shutdown?

Haha, isn't this the guy that when speaking on the issue of gay marriage, compared gays to pedophiles and practitioners of beastality.

[NeverSure]

Given the exchanges are relatively new, and many not set up, and some red states playing hardball, then isn't it a bit early to judge the sucess of a programme? Based on evidence from places like Australia, which have incentives to get people to also take out private health insurance, people don't generally think about it until tax time when they become aware of the tax penalties for not having private health insurance and then take it out.

So it is a bit rich running around after the first week and saying 'see, it isn't working'.

Having said that, the only way to get people to take out the right level of health care is to make it universal, automatic and based on need, not on what you've paid. You can never predict what level of medical care you need, and if left to a private market, like the US still is, people still will refuse to insure, or under insure. The exchanges will bring health care to many via the tax sting if they don't, but not to all unfortunately.

In other words, it's ill-conceived, poorly implemented, and doomed to fail. But that doesn't stop it from costing federal and state governments $trillions.

And we're supposed to like it?

[MaxYakov]

@midas, let's speak again after tax time. I know American exceptionalism means you blokes are loath to admit other places in the world can do things differently and better, but it happens you know?

As for MaxYakov. Of course this doctor is going to say that. Health systems which are a little more universal in nature mean that he'll only be able to buy two BMW's annually instead of his usual three. Listening to the most self interested parties in debates such as this does no one any good. The doctors union, otherwise known as the AMA, are ultimately there to represent their members, not patients, though they will still present their self interested arguments under the auspices of patient care.

As for being slaves? Ask the citizens of every other democratic OECD country (yes their are others who do democracy too) whether having access to medical care makes you feel like a slave, and they'll laugh in your face. Not having to worry about your health care is the ultimate freedom.

On American Exceptionalism: Maybe you should do a little research on a term before using it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

Not to worry, Obama (or his speech-writers) is ignorant of the term and its history also - by his very use of it in his speeches.

On Dr. Carson: Do I detect a bit of wealth-envy? Have you visited his garage or had access to this tax returns? Considering his career, do you begrudge him his wealth? I'd say he said what he said because he's a political conservative.

On the American Medical Association (AMA): So that's your opinion of the AMA - to ultimately represent their members and not the patients? So you think his speech was a violation of the AMA's mission statement?:

The AMA's stated mission is to promote the art and science of medicine for the betterment of the public health, to advance the interests of physicians and their patients, to promote public health, to lobby for legislation favorable to physicians and patients, and to raise money for medical education

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association

On the USA: That would be a constitutional republic of fifty states, last I looked. A least one other on this thread has difficulty remembering the "constitutional" part. You might want to read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States

On "Not having to worry about your health care is the ultimate freedom": Would you be willing to live under a totalitarian government as long as it provided you with worry-free health care?

Edited October 12, 2013 by MaxYakov

[Ulysses G.]

Haha, isn't this the guy that when speaking on the issue of gay marriage, compared gays to pedophiles and practitioners of beastality.

He did not compare them. He said that none of them have the right to change the definition of marriage.

He is retired fron surgery. I think that he is sincere about his opposition to Obamacare and it has nothing to do with wanting more profit from medical care.