Can we extinguish the corruption in Thailand?

[Khun Jean]

So if you live in Thailand where do you start to clean?

Sometimes a little money is used to get in front of the queue.

I do not consider that corruption, more like an incentive to work quicker as it is not something illegal that i want to do.

[NewlyMintedThai]

So if you live in Thailand where do you start to clean?

Sometimes a little money is used to get in front of the queue.

I do not consider that corruption, more like an incentive to work quicker as it is not something illegal that i want to do.

Aha.

Here we get to the root of the problem.

"A little money to get to the front of the queue" is fine, even for a self-proclaimed anti-corruption crusader.

No wonder nothing ever changes.

[GuestHouse]

Changes to social titutes are preceded by a growing awareness of issues to be changed within the population.

We've all seen this ourselves, a change in public attitudes, starts off with obscure discussions in the media or people expressing 'fringe ideas', followed by letters in the press and suddenly a ground swell of opinion arises. OK that's not the precise path to acceptance, but fringe ideas to take hold in following as growing awareness and growing discussion.

Often what were very devisive issues become widely accepted social attitudes. I think the debate over drug legalization is one such topic (But please let's not get into drug legalization other than to note that in the UK seniour police officers are now making arguments that ten years ago would have seemed unimaginable).

So it seems there is a social discourse which precedes a change.

The choice then is do you as an individual wish to take part in the social discourse or not?

If not, then why is getting out of the way so others can take part a problem?

[drdoom6996]

I leave weighty questions like this up to the Thai Population.

When they get sick enough of it for action ... they will.

Till then ... not much will change.

One thing I do know for a fact, my time here is much more enjoyable contemplating the things that I can change, things I have influence over.

I'm not defending corruption ... I'm just not contemplating corruption.

I must prefer to think of my life in Thailand, names for the children to be born in a few months, helping the 16 yo with her English homework, fishing the Dam with the boy, relaxing with a Scotch and Soda by the Fish Pond with the gf's Parents who, luckily, don't speak a word of English, lifting the fly cover of the various offerings on the kitchen table to contemplate which meals I can stomach, giving the dog a well earned scratch ... those kind of things.

Do I contemplate when the Thais will swap their corruption model for the corruption model employed in the West ... hardly.

But, it's nice that you are doing that for me ...

.

It hasn't effected my "T" time either. It still sickens me and I teach my daughter how and why these things are allowed to happen. Not just take her golfing on the weekends. Help her with her homework. And feed my face.

[spidermike007]

The primary issue, is that there is little to zero interest in fighting corruption here. Nearly every level of government, and law enforcement has given up the fight, or not bothered waging a fight in the first place. When they do, they are thwarted at every level, by nearly every official or person involved. Though Thailand has made alot of noise about integrating itself into the world community, and especially ASEAN, to date they have defied many, many charters they have signed, especially the 6th charter, which I believe was signed back in 2009. I am told there are about 20 different international government bodies that are going to monitor Thailand's participation, and conduct once the upcoming ASEAN integration takes place in 2015. Many are skeptical, for good reason. Thailand has a very long history of making promises to the international community, and breaking them, when it comes to integration, easing of customs restriction, the import market, etc. To date, they have remained fabulously insular, and in some respects resemble China, when it comes to keeping their own markets closed to outside competition. The term protectionism comes to mind.

Getting back to the corruption issue, it is incredibly frustrating for many of us to see the level with which it affects this nation. But, so far, there is no Anna Hazare, or other such heroes who have stood up, risked life and limb, and been willing to carry the torch. I have seen no fight. No game. No resistance. No battle. No courage. No fortitude. No conviction. No arrests. Nobody jailed. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So, you are seeking something that is simply not there. There may be some talk from time to time, from goombahs like Chalerm, but no action, ever! Does the "anti-corruption" agency ever fight corruption? No. What do they do? They focus on election fraud. So, you are simply engaging in an act that, if it produces anything, will end in deportation, denial of a visa, scorn, violence, or bodily harm to you or your family. But, rest assured, it will not result in anybody being disciplined, losing their job, fined, or jailed. At the lowest to the highest level of government here, there is zero interest in that. SImply too much money being made, and no interest in upsetting the apple cart.

[hansnl]

did you manage to rid your home country of corruption before you came to thailand??

Oh dear, someone has got his toes out.

Fact is, Ayjaydeem corruption in Thailand IS getting out of hand and is condoned by nearly the entire population.

And it is probably that far already it can not be brought back to "normal" levels.

[kiwiinasia]

Can we extinguish the corruption in Thailand?

Well NO!

And why would we?

Do you want to turn Thailand into something else? Something more western perhaps?

Well I vote NO.

I love this place because of its way of life and am happy for the Thais to keep the current system as it is.

Anyway, it saves me money paying the police 100-200 baht to go away.

Love Thai ways!

[pgrahmm]

Hmmmm

Let's start small and work up with recognized states and work up starting with the Vatican looking for places without corruption - nope don't see any.....so in my opinion trying to rid anywhere of corruption short of a nuclear blast is pretty unrealistic.....

[attento]

The corruption here is like my country 60 years ago. I'm not naive. All countries have some form of corruption. If you think this country is at par with all others then that is your prerogative.

the major banks in america almost brought the entire financial system of the world to its knees and not a single one of the bastards went to jail and many of them are in the obama administration. and you think thailand is in a league of its own?? lol

The difference is, with one act of corruption, the bankers each bought a new super-yacht.

The cops here bought 2-1/2 bowls of noodle soup.

Maybe, bankers don't like noodle soup

[klauskunkel]

Replying to Can we extinguish the corruption in Thailand?

well, ahem, let's see here, maybe when everybody has the amount of money they want, duh....then again, maybe not, too dynamic, endemic and epidemic...

I don't judge. I just watch, it's very funny!

[Hedghog]

I leave weighty questions like this up to the Thai Population.

When they get sick enough of it for action ... they will.

Till then ... not much will change.

One thing I do know for a fact, my time here is much more enjoyable contemplating the things that I can change, things I have influence over.

I'm not defending corruption ... I'm just not contemplating corruption.

I must prefer to think of my life in Thailand, names for the children to be born in a few months, helping the 16 yo with her English homework, fishing the Dam with the boy, relaxing with a Scotch and Soda by the Fish Pond with the gf's Parents who, luckily, don't speak a word of English, lifting the fly cover of the various offerings on the kitchen table to contemplate which meals I can stomach, giving the dog a well earned scratch ... those kind of things.

Do I contemplate when the Thais will swap their corruption model for the corruption model employed in the West ... hardly.

But, it's nice that you are doing that for me ...

.

So David.

When you actually move here,to live.

Will there be no corruption.?

[weegee]

MAYBE!!!! we got it wrong....WE are responsible for the corruption????? We (the parents of the generation of corruption)...did we allow our kids too much freedom? How many times have you said to yourself....My kids wont live the life like I had....WE forgot discipline maybe? WE tried to give a better life to them,(hand over foot) and maybe it's come back to bite us in the a%%e....

Just saying....not trying to start a war here..

[Travel2003]

I mentioned it before in a similar Thread.

A poll made a few years ago here, and published in one of the big English speaking newspapers in Thailand, showed that a big majority of the population accept that corruption is part of life.

I think it was around 70% who accepted it.

Regardless.

Many Thais just encourage corruption by breaking the laws all the time, and are happy to pay a smaller fine (in hand to Police), instead of a bigger fine to the state.

And then the very same people drive home and dam_n the corrupt Police, who just helped them with a smaller fine.

Next day, back to square one with driving on red, no helmets, 3-4 people on a motorbike, drunk driving, speeding, etc, etc.

Police stop them, and they pay a smaller fine into pockets, instead of a big fine to the state.

[inthepink]

Public versus private. No comparison.

Check out the number of public officials convicted for corruption in Chicago over the last few decades (not sixty years ago) if you want an example of public corruption in the West.

Gotta love these political activists from overseas who never campaigned against anything in their home countries.

Edited October 24, 2013 by inthepink

[GuestHouse]

Public versus private. No comparison.

Check out the number of public officials convicted for corruption in Chicago over the last few decades (not sixty years ago) if you want an example of public corruption in the West.

Gotta love these political activists from overseas who never campaigned against anything in their home countries.

Yes convicted.

Gotta love these people who rant and rave against anyone who suggests doing something about corruption when the people who pay the price for corruption are the ordinary Thai people, to whom under any other circumstances we would be arguing we owe a debt of gratitude.

Edited October 24, 2013 by GuestHouse

[hellodolly]

The corruption here is like my country 60 years ago. I'm not naive. All countries have some form of corruption. If you think this country is at par with all others then that is your prerogative.

the major banks in america almost brought the entire financial system of the world to its knees and not a single one of the bastards went to jail and many of them are in the obama administration. and you think thailand is in a league of its own?? lol

You mean were friends of Bush and Cheney.

The point does show the problem with corruption. It starts getting serious back in a previous government. In the case of Thailand it just gets progressively worse especially when you still have the prime motivators in power.

The States were able to get rid of the two prime motivators and it is still an ongoing job to get rid of the lesser ones.

Where as we here in Thailand are keeping the prime motivators in power. In fact if you are following Thai politics they are attempting to change the law to give amnesty to all the corrupt officials. Can Thailand change it, yes it can but it is a long drawn out process.

Name one other country in the world that has a finance minister that says it is OK to lie.

[hellodolly]

Who is "we"? What on earth has corruption here got to do with me? Why would any non-Thai be so presumptuous to think they can cure corruption in Thailand (or any other country you don't come from)? Mind your own business and leave that stuff to the locals to sort - they never will so what makes you think "we" can?

Well good points but slipping the police officer a few hundred baht to avoid a more expensive ticket is contributing to corruption. \Ask any farong business owner if he dosen't have to hand out brown or white envelops.

Yes we can not stop it but we can stop participating actively in it.

[bocceball1]

The problem in a nutshell as stated by George Carlin;

Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land, they own and control the corporations that've long since bought and paid for, the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pocket, and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and the information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else. But I'll tell you what they don't want. They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help them.

[Andre0720]

I leave weighty questions like this up to the Thai Population.

When they get sick enough of it for action ... they will.

Till then ... not much will change.

One thing I do know for a fact, my time here is much more enjoyable contemplating the things that I can change, things I have influence over.

I'm not defending corruption ... I'm just not contemplating corruption.

I must prefer to think of my life in Thailand, names for the children to be born in a few months, helping the 16 yo with her English homework, fishing the Dam with the boy, relaxing with a Scotch and Soda by the Fish Pond with the gf's Parents who, luckily, don't speak a word of English, lifting the fly cover of the various offerings on the kitchen table to contemplate which meals I can stomach, giving the dog a well earned scratch ... those kind of things.

Do I contemplate when the Thais will swap their corruption model for the corruption model employed in the West ... hardly.

But, it's nice that you are doing that for me ...

.

Nice reading you...

[hellodolly]

The financial crisis in America involved both greed and corruption. Many were complicit, including financial institutions, rating agencies, university professors, traders/brokers, and yes, senior US government officials. Most were sophisticated enough to hide behind various loopholes so that the regulators and the sheeps (i.e., public-at-large including yourself) wouldn't be able to recognize that it was in fact corruption on a grand scale.

I agree wholeheartedly that there was corruption but not in the financial transactions and financial mechanisms that preciptated the crash - Rather in the influence of the finacial sector on the law makers and the willingness of the law makers to be influenced in the period of deregulation of these financial markets. And that wasn't down to this pesident, nor the last incumbant.

Point of note: |Public are Large Incliding Ourselves|

I'd hate for you to become some retrospective prophet who foresaw the doom, warned us but we did not listen. Not that I mind, but its a short step thereafter to blaming us for the mess.

Personally I thought Clinton was a good president are you blaming it on him.

Or to be honest I know a few Republicans that are blaming all of Americas problems on Wilson.

America may have it's corruption as does any other country and that is not a justification.

But

America can be a shining lite on how much corruption you can eliminate. It made Thailand of today look like an honest government when it was in the Grant administration. They would have taken Thaksin and chewed him up and spit him out into the spittoons that were used in those days.

[Wat dee]

Atleast here it is "honest" corruption in every level...back in old country it is just for the better people,politicians and such.

[Maggusoil]

The title question immediately brought a smile, as if it were a joke. It may as well be, but why Thailand?

I guess if its a good place to live. Its a good place to start.

One of the differences between Thai corruption and that of more developed nations, is just that its a lot more obvious here.

The Thais are a more reckless. Corruption in an honest, in your face kind of way.

The more developed the country, the more stealthy the fraud. They do it so you don't even see or feel it, as your loose change is taken straight out of your pocket

through the banking system.

[geronimo]

We could never extinguish the corruption in Thailand, the Thais might be able to, if it bothered them enough!

[cpofc]

Atleast here it is "honest" corruption in every level...back in old country it is just for the better people,politicians and such.

concur. I have been saying the same thing for years.

[stickylies]

corruption is in their veins, nothing will change soon. all people with a brain/voice in thailand use the advantages of corruption whenever needed. those with no brain/voice don't care as long as the lao khao (male) and 300 thb (female) gets on the table each day...

[David48]

I leave weighty questions like this up to the Thai Population.

When they get sick enough of it for action ... they will.

Till then ... not much will change.

One thing I do know for a fact, my time here is much more enjoyable contemplating the things that I can change, things I have influence over.

I'm not defending corruption ... I'm just not contemplating corruption.

I must prefer to think of my life in Thailand, names for the children to be born in a few months, helping the 16 yo with her English homework, fishing the Dam with the boy, relaxing with a Scotch and Soda by the Fish Pond with the gf's Parents who, luckily, don't speak a word of English, lifting the fly cover of the various offerings on the kitchen table to contemplate which meals I can stomach, giving the dog a well earned scratch ... those kind of things.

Do I contemplate when the Thais will swap their corruption model for the corruption model employed in the West ... hardly.

But, it's nice that you are doing that for me ...

.

So David.

When you actually move here,to live.

Will there be no corruption.?

Ah Hedgehog ... I always like reading your comments.

Such depth and original insight there.

Please never stop posting ... Thai Visa would be a less interesting Forum without you ...

.

[bocceball1]

The controlling word in this post is "WE".....and the answer is NO ...Its been said already..." its up the Thai's"

Look at Thai history (of which I am no expert) it was run by Royalty in the beginning and later by the Army, .......Have the Thai "people" ever really had a say in their own life's? I would say not.....most of the Thai's live day to day ....a life of survival...and if paying someone higher on rung than them helps them to survive thats what they do....Probably has a lot to do with why the educational system so lacking. Those that have don't want to give up what they have and want more....and want to keep those that don't have ...well...they want to keep them down so they can be taken advantage of....

Is it right or moral? Of Course NOT

But beware .....of the sleeping Tiger!

Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners.”

--Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

[Emdog]

It's on my list, I'll get to it just after I finish making the sunrise in the West.

[catweazle]

... does this question imply that you truly believe there's any country on this planet that is free of corruption? Wakie, wakie, sleepiehead!!!!!!!!!!

[tragickingdom]

Nice examples. How about we start by rooting out the pork barrels in the American politics and in Brussels? Calling a country corrupt is easy, but it is much harder to look to your own countries and admit it is an even bigger mess. In Thailand it is out in the open. That's good. Personally I must admit it has helped me many times. I donut think that we should get rid of the Thai way of doing things.