Why do oriental asians mix-up "L" and "R" ?

[thaiexpat21]

Yes most seem to have an issue with their R's. People in SEA are quite good though in general with their accent and rhythm of speaking English. Most far east places in Asia are quite pathetic for whatever reason in their ability of grasping English, probably on the same level as people from my country picking up Thai to be fair. I can certainly understand peoples take on English from SEA waaaaayy more than most people I have talked to from East countries.

Its is interesting to note the excellent "English" as "wrote" by an alleged "speaker" of the language !

[nidieunimaitre]

I guess if you can't yet say in Thai 'new wood doesn't burn, does it?' then you have your answer.

I have no idea what that means.

But as it has been posted by samran, i guess it is bashing TV posters?

[kevozman1]

Yes most seem to have an issue with their R's. People in SEA are quite good though in general with their accent and rhythm of speaking English. Most far east places in Asia are quite pathetic for whatever reason in their ability of grasping English, probably on the same level as people from my country picking up Thai to be fair. I can certainly understand peoples take on English from SEA waaaaayy more than most people I have talked to from East countries.

Its is interesting to note the excellent "English" as "wrote" by an alleged "speaker" of the language !

Nice quotation marks. Do you think that makes you look smart by the way? Because It doesn't I am afraid.

I am quite happy with my English thank you very much as I was able to able to obtain a degree in England. Luckily I was not judged on my use of English whilst using casual internet forums I suppose eh?

[thaiexpat21]

Yes most seem to have an issue with their R's. People in SEA are quite good though in general with their accent and rhythm of speaking English. Most far east places in Asia are quite pathetic for whatever reason in their ability of grasping English, probably on the same level as people from my country picking up Thai to be fair. I can certainly understand peoples take on English from SEA waaaaayy more than most people I have talked to from East countries.

Its is interesting to note the excellent "English" as "wrote" by an alleged "speaker" of the language !

Nice quotation marks. Do you think that makes you look smart by the way? Because It doesn't I am afraid.

I am quite happy with my English thank you very much as I was able to able to obtain a degree in England. Luckily I was not judged on my use of English whilst using casual internet forums I suppose eh?

If one wishes to criticise others use of language it just might be a good idea to ensure ones own use is above reproach .

Was the degree in basket weaving difficult ?

[samran]

I guess if you can't yet say in Thai 'new wood doesn't burn, does it?' then you have your answer.

I have no idea what that means.

But as it has been posted by samran, i guess it is bashing TV posters?

No. But good try.

[kevozman1]

Yes most seem to have an issue with their R's. People in SEA are quite good though in general with their accent and rhythm of speaking English. Most far east places in Asia are quite pathetic for whatever reason in their ability of grasping English, probably on the same level as people from my country picking up Thai to be fair. I can certainly understand peoples take on English from SEA waaaaayy more than most people I have talked to from East countries.

Its is interesting to note the excellent "English" as "wrote" by an alleged "speaker" of the language !

Nice quotation marks. Do you think that makes you look smart by the way? Because It doesn't I am afraid.

I am quite happy with my English thank you very much as I was able to able to obtain a degree in England. Luckily I was not judged on my use of English whilst using casual internet forums I suppose eh?

If one wishes to criticise others use of language it just might be a good idea to ensure ones own use is above reproach .

Was the degree in basket weaving difficult ?

Oh, in that case I suggest you look at your own use of English as you obviously felt the need to criticise mine, "Its is". Very easy to be a pedantic loser if one chooses.

Anyway, I have little patience for fools and clearly I have wasted enough time on one already.

[Neeranam]

why do so many westerners have problems learning oriental languages.

Also why do american blacks pronounce ASK as AXE replacing the S with X. Now that's a problem cos that will be racist.

Or let anyone not German speak the ch and sch.

It seems so easy for any German speaker but almost impossible for anyone else.

Can you show an example?

Words like:

"bischen" or "Eichhörnchen"

(means: little and squirrel)

I wanted to refer to google translate which good speak before, but now this button isn't there anymore.

These changes from S to CH (here it is not a sch) and the complete Eichhörnchen seems to be incredible difficult for some people.

We tried that once in the office and from 10 Thais, 9 couldn't speak it even half correct. While number 10 didn't had any problem and couldn't even understand what the problem should be.

Many people from other languages have particular problems to speak these things. My guess is, that Dutch is even more difficult on these sounds.

I of course can speak that perfect....but no way I get the toning in Thai right or the ng in Thai.

For most people I guess you need to learn it as child or be very talented.....I think I'll need 100 years to be good in Thai.....

Perhaps the hardest thing for Thai people to say is 'the squirrel ate the shrimp crisps' - my wife still can't say this.

Then again I find it quite hard to say quickly, not as bad as 'the Leith police dismitheth us'

Edited November 2, 2013 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

I guess if you can't yet say in Thai 'new wood doesn't burn, does it?' then you have your answer.

Or the 'the sleepy turkey's shadow'

I can't say , Ranong, Rayong, Yala quickly.

There is a great Thai tongue twister about a grannie and snails but better not try to say it in public.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

Yes most seem to have an issue with their R's. People in SEA are quite good though in general with their accent and rhythm of speaking English. Most far east places in Asia are quite pathetic for whatever reason in their ability of grasping English, probably on the same level as people from my country picking up Thai to be fair. I can certainly understand peoples take on English from SEA waaaaayy more than most people I have talked to from East countries.

Its is interesting to note the excellent "English" as "wrote" by an alleged "speaker" of the language !

I barely passed my English GCSE but always thought it was 'written' and not 'wrote' as used here.

[kevozman1]

Perhaps the hardest thing for Thai people to say is 'the squirrel ate the shrimp crisps' - my wife still can't say this.

Then again I find it quite hard to say quickly, not as bad as 'the Leith police dismitheth us'

Have to agree, squirrel and crisps were two words I distinctively remember having issues trying to help a Thai girl to pronounce. However she did manage to pick up English way faster than I could with Thai haha.

[AYJAYDEE]

because the position of the jaw is the same for both. but for L the tongue is slightly more forward in the mouth. westerners learn this while young. if an asian is born and educated in the west by caucasians, they will say R and L just as well as anyone else. but adults cannot easily relearn how to position their mouths to make sounds. after 25 years , I still cannot make the NG sound properly.

[Bikkii]

OP how well do you do doing the "ng's"?

[kevozman1]

because the position of the jaw is the same for both. but for L the tongue is slightly more forward in the mouth. westerners learn this while young. if an asian is born and educated in the west by caucasians, they will say R and L just as well as anyone else. but adults cannot easily relearn how to position their mouths to make sounds. after 25 years , I still cannot make the NG sound properly.

I think this sums it up pretty well. I am sure most foreigners who try to learn Thai are somewhat perplexed by the ng sound, much to the amusement of any Thai who happens to be trying to help you pronounce it correctly.

[JoeLing]

why do so many westerners have problems learning oriental languages.

Also why do american blacks pronounce ASK as AXE replacing the S with X. Now that's a problem cos that will be racist.

Or let anyone not German speak the ch and sch.

It seems so easy for any German speaker but almost impossible for anyone else.

Can you show an example?

Cheibe Chuchichaschtli esch mer uf the scheiche gfalle. ;-)

After all the years in Thailand, I still get 7 and 8 confused :-(

Edited November 2, 2013 by JoeLing

[bonobo]

People are hardwired fairly early in their lives for sounds. If a sound is not heard and "registered" by the brain at a young age, and I have read this age might be as early as five years old, then the chances are that an adult will have an extremely hard time making that sound or even really hearing it.

I have given endless hours, it seems, of amusement to Russians while I try to repeat a specific Russian vowel sound. They say it, and I repeat it, perfectly to my ear. But not to theirs. The fact that the way I say the word evidently has a sexual connotation leaves them in stitches. Of course, the fact that they've usually had a bit of vodka is probably why this routine comes up over an over again, especially if there is someone new in the group.

I have never heard a non-Khosian language native speaker ever master the click sound as spoken by the Khoi and Bushman and a few other smaller groups of people.

[AYJAYDEE]

People are hardwired fairly early in their lives for sounds. If a sound is not heard and "registered" by the brain at a young age, and I have read this age might be as early as five years old, then the chances are that an adult will have an extremely hard time making that sound or even really hearing it.

I have given endless hours, it seems, of amusement to Russians while I try to repeat a specific Russian vowel sound. They say it, and I repeat it, perfectly to my ear. But not to theirs. The fact that the way I say the word evidently has a sexual connotation leaves them in stitches. Of course, the fact that they've usually had a bit of vodka is probably why this routine comes up over an over again, especially if there is someone new in the group.

I have never heard a non-Khosian language native speaker ever master the click sound as spoken by the Khoi and Bushman and a few other smaller groups of people.

it is now known that, by age six, thousands of neural connections that would have been necessary to learn any of 7000 languages have died off because they were not used. the reason for this is that they required electrical energy and it was wasted.

[papa al]

OP - where did you learn the term "oriental asian"? lol Never heard anyone pair the words together before.

Asia is a large continent, actually part of the eurasian landmass and differentiated from Europe politically rather than geologically.

Oriental means eastern, so oriental Asians would be Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Thai, etc.

Russians, Turks, Iranians, Indians, etc. (Asian, but not oriental) don't seem to mix up L/R.

I could have used 'eastern' Asians but I chose the synonym.

I'm really not a PC guy. The term 'PC' (Russian version) was first used under Stalinist regime.

[Neeranam]

because the position of the jaw is the same for both. but for L the tongue is slightly more forward in the mouth. westerners learn this while young. if an asian is born and educated in the west by caucasians, they will say R and L just as well as anyone else. but adults cannot easily relearn how to position their mouths to make sounds. after 25 years , I still cannot make the NG sound properly.

I think this sums it up pretty well. I am sure most foreigners who try to learn Thai are somewhat perplexed by the ng sound, much to the amusement of any Thai who happens to be trying to help you pronounce it correctly.

I find it easy. The trick I found was to imagine the word 'song' before the word. So for example, the word snake is 'ngoo'. Say song(emphasizing the ending) and oo. Then only say the sound 'so' to yourself and when you get to 'ng', say it out loud with 'oo'.

[AYJAYDEE]

because the position of the jaw is the same for both. but for L the tongue is slightly more forward in the mouth. westerners learn this while young. if an asian is born and educated in the west by caucasians, they will say R and L just as well as anyone else. but adults cannot easily relearn how to position their mouths to make sounds. after 25 years , I still cannot make the NG sound properly.

I think this sums it up pretty well. I am sure most foreigners who try to learn Thai are somewhat perplexed by the ng sound, much to the amusement of any Thai who happens to be trying to help you pronounce it correctly.

I find it easy. The trick I found was to imagine the word 'song' before the word. So for example, the word snake is 'ngoo'. Say song(emphasizing the ending) and oo. Then only say the sound 'so' to yourself and when you get to 'ng', say it out loud with 'oo'.

thats the point, we have to trick ourselves into making the mouth jump thru that hurdle.

[snake24]

OP - where did you learn the term "oriental asian"? lol Never heard anyone pair the words together before.

Asia is a large continent, actually part of the eurasian landmass and differentiated from Europe politically rather than geologically.

Oriental means eastern, so oriental Asians would be Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Thai, etc.

Russians, Turks, Iranians, Indians, etc. (Asian, but not oriental) don't seem to mix up L/R.

I could have used 'eastern' Asians but I chose the synonym.

I'm really not a PC guy. The term 'PC' (Russian version) was first used under Stalinist regime.

Actually orient can even apply to ppl in iran. Take oriental rugs for example. Those are from turkey or the middle east and not from the far east but they are called oriental.

It seems like many ppl have forgotten that turkey is the gateway to europe and it's the country that sits between europe and asia and that's how the turkish national board markets the country. It's also there for historical reason. The capital of turkey used to be greek until the ottomans conquered it.

If you care to read on textbooks talking about geography they call countries like turkey the near east, the middle east is the middle east and countries like japan the far east.

It's just cos of those damn americans that base race on every every simplistic terms like outer appearance that's why to them only the far east are considered asia while somehow middle, south and western asia are what considered white. It's of course stupid and did u know the turkish empire used to take the children of their caucasian slaves and make them into an elite force called the janssieries and the real ottoman turks looked semetic and oriental rather than caucasian or germanic.

[ExpatOilWorker]

Cos' they don't know their R's from anything L's.

Or maybe they don't know the difference between a boat and a monkey.

The OP asked "Why do oriental asians mix-up "L" and "R" ?"

What sort of place would someone be coming from to give the above type of answers?

Guess they are confused where their entrance & exits are.

What appalling mentalities.

Ohhh boy, are you saying you live in Thailand and don't know the Thai alphabet? I am shocked

Each of the 44 (Only 42 are in practical use) consonants are assigned a thing or animal, for R it is "Ror rua" (Boat) and for L it is "Lor ling" (Monkey). See attached.

Class is dismissed!.

[hookedondhamma]

OP - where did you learn the term "oriental asian"? lol Never heard anyone pair the words together before.

Asia is a large continent, actually part of the eurasian landmass and differentiated from Europe politically rather than geologically.

Oriental means eastern, so oriental Asians would be Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Thai, etc.

Russians, Turks, Iranians, Indians, etc. (Asian, but not oriental) don't seem to mix up L/R.

I could have used 'eastern' Asians but I chose the synonym.

I'm really not a PC guy. The term 'PC' (Russian version) was first used under Stalinist regime.

Actually orient can even apply to ppl in iran. Take oriental rugs for example. Those are from turkey or the middle east and not from the far east but they are called oriental.

It seems like many ppl have forgotten that turkey is the gateway to europe and it's the country that sits between europe and asia and that's how the turkish national board markets the country. It's also there for historical reason. The capital of turkey used to be greek until the ottomans conquered it.

If you care to read on textbooks talking about geography they call countries like turkey the near east, the middle east is the middle east and countries like japan the far east.

It's just cos of those dam_n americans that base race on every every simplistic terms like outer appearance that's why to them only the far east are considered asia while somehow middle, south and western asia are what considered white. It's of course stupid and did u know the turkish empire used to take the children of their caucasian slaves and make them into an elite force called the janssieries and the real ottoman turks looked semetic and oriental rather than caucasian or germanic.

Oh my

[Gsxrnz]

I guess if you can't yet say in Thai 'new wood doesn't burn, does it?' then you have your answer.

Even Thais have extreme difficulty with that one. If you ask one to say it to another person who isn't in on the game then they probably won't understand it. I've seen them having to write it down before they can nail all the tones and vowel lengths correctly.

But then to the English ear it still sounds like mai mai mai mai mai.

[A1Str8]

I dont know but it's annoying. It's like talking to a kid who hasn't learned to speak properly.

[AYJAYDEE]

I dont know but it's annoying. It's like talking to a kid who hasn't learned to speak properly.

have you learned to speak thai 100% properly??

[papa al]

Thank you all for your pithy comments.

"People are hardwired fairly early in their lives for sounds. If a sound is not heard and "registered" by the brain at a young age, and I have read this age might be as early as five years old, then the chances are that an adult will have an extremely hard time making that sound or even really hearing it."

True, but my Chinese, Japanese, Thai friends CAN pronounce R and L , but frequently transpose. Therein lies the mystery.

"Actually orient can even apply to ppl in iran. Take oriental rugs for example. Those are from turkey or the middle east and not from the far east but they are called oriental."

So true! These terms have multiple meanings/connotations, and are somewhat relative.

"If you care to read on textbooks talking about geography they call countries like turkey the near east, the middle east is the middle east and countries like japan the far east."

Also true. Yes and Californians consider New Yorkers "eastern."

Here is a quiz for you all:

In which of the United States lies

1...the most southern point,

2...the most northern point,

3...the most eastern point,

4...the most western point?

I will buy a beer for the first to get this correct.

...answer tomorrow.

[A1Str8]

I dont know but it's annoying. It's like talking to a kid who hasn't learned to speak properly.

have you learned to speak thai 100% properly??

It's not about learning a foreign language. Thais for example often fail to pronounce the R in their own language.

Edited November 3, 2013 by A1Str8

[AYJAYDEE]

Thank you all for your pithy comments.

"People are hardwired fairly early in their lives for sounds. If a sound is not heard and "registered" by the brain at a young age, and I have read this age might be as early as five years old, then the chances are that an adult will have an extremely hard time making that sound or even really hearing it."

True, but my Chinese, Japanese, Thai friends CAN pronounce R and L , but frequently transpose. Therein lies the mystery.

"Actually orient can even apply to ppl in iran. Take oriental rugs for example. Those are from turkey or the middle east and not from the far east but they are called oriental."

So true! These terms have multiple meanings/connotations, and are somewhat relative.

"If you care to read on textbooks talking about geography they call countries like turkey the near east, the middle east is the middle east and countries like japan the far east."

Also true. Yes and Californians consider New Yorkers "eastern."

Here is a quiz for you all:

In which of the United States lies

1...the most southern point,

2...the most northern point,

3...the most eastern point,

4...the most western point?

I will buy a beer for the first to get this correct.

...answer tomorrow.

goole earth kinda spoils the fun

[ExpatOilWorker]

Thank you all for your pithy comments.

"People are hardwired fairly early in their lives for sounds. If a sound is not heard and "registered" by the brain at a young age, and I have read this age might be as early as five years old, then the chances are that an adult will have an extremely hard time making that sound or even really hearing it."

True, but my Chinese, Japanese, Thai friends CAN pronounce R and L , but frequently transpose. Therein lies the mystery.

"Actually orient can even apply to ppl in iran. Take oriental rugs for example. Those are from turkey or the middle east and not from the far east but they are called oriental."

So true! These terms have multiple meanings/connotations, and are somewhat relative.

"If you care to read on textbooks talking about geography they call countries like turkey the near east, the middle east is the middle east and countries like japan the far east."

Also true. Yes and Californians consider New Yorkers "eastern."

Here is a quiz for you all:

In which of the United States lies

1...the most southern point,

2...the most northern point,

3...the most eastern point,

4...the most western point?

I will buy a beer for the first to get this correct.

...answer tomorrow.

Alaska

[Gsxrnz]

I dont know but it's annoying. It's like talking to a kid who hasn't learned to speak properly.

have you learned to speak thai 100% properly??

It's not about learning a foreign language. Thais for example often fail to pronounce the R in their own language.

The point is though, that it is their language, not English.

When they interchange the L and R, there is no problem for them as it is just a form of pronunciation. The R is usually emphasised by those that speak in a "text book" fashion. Otherwise the L is sufficient to replace an R in most cases and is perfectly acceptable. They don't see any problem other than it being a casual form of speaking.

In English, the number after 39 is 40. Correctly spoken in the Queen's English, it should be said as fourTee, with specific aspiration on the T. Most of us say it as fourdy, changing a T to a D and not even aspirating the D. That's how the Thais view the L and the R in their language.

Say the word "wanted" as you would in everyday language, it comes out as wanned with the T missing entirely and the D nearly swallowed and not aspirated. Lazy speaking if comparing to text book English I agree, but many of us speak that way in casual situations - we speak better in formal or business situations, my Mum used to call it her "telephone voice".

Thais have that form of speech as well. Just listen to one talking to an official or to a business - their pronunciation improves dramatically, they speak slower, and they throw in a lot more Ka/Krup's. A man who normally says Kap will suddenly be able to say Krup with no problem. Even the Ka by a woman seems better pronounced, often with the K coming slightly from the back of the throat.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Gsxrnz