Advice needed

[chappie1207]

Hi all, need some serious advice for this one so please no trolling.

My American friend has bought a town-house through his company here, the house required renovation work totalling almost 1m baht. He was recommended a contractor that provided references etc which all turned out to be legit and they drafted a contract breaking the payments down into milestone deliverables.

He paid the initial first stage payment and work got under way and was completed on time, the second payment was paid and then the trouble started. The contractor said his team had to go finish another job and would be back after one week. The contractor is now not answering calls and it has been 3 weeks.

What can legally be done?

Please only give serious advice.

Thanks

[HeijoshinCool]

Is the time frame set out only verbally, or in the contract?

Typical with contractors everywhere. Run low with cash flow, move on to another job for a payment, so workers can be paid. Back and forth, back and forth. Not worth lawyering up if there is a cash flow problem, he'll likely completely disappear.

I'd contact some of the folks who gave "great" references, and ask them to (obliquely) talk to the guy. Face might bring him back to the job site for a short while.

In the meantime, I'd be looking for backup.

I built houses on the side for years, and paid for materials, plus a percentage, upon completion of stages. Never draws against future work.

EDIT: I assumed that at least some of the referrers were Thai. When a Thai recommends someone, they take it very seriously, losing face if the person recommended screws up.

Edited November 15, 2013 by HeijoshinCool

[chappie1207]

Is the time frame set out only verbally, or in the contract?

Typical with contractors everywhere. Run low with cash flow, move on to another job for a payment, so workers can be paid. Back and forth, back and forth. Not worth lawyering up if there is a cash flow problem, he'll likely completely disappear.

I'd contact some of the folks who gave "great" references, and ask them to (obliquely) talk to the guy. Face might bring him back to the job site for a short while.

In the meantime, I'd be looking for backup.

I built houses on the side for years, and paid for materials, plus a percentage, upon completion of stages. Never draws against future work.

EDIT: I assumed that at least some of the referrers were Thai. When a Thai recommends someone, they take it very seriously, losing face if the person recommended screws up.

Thanks I will pass on the advice. The time frame, costs etc is set in a signed contract, but my friend does not want to go down the legal road as he does not think it will achieve anything and will only cost him more money. I know he has started looking for another contractor but he is thinking of throwing in the towel. If you know any good reliable people please can you let me know. cheers

Edited November 15, 2013 by chappie1207

[CharlieH]

From my own personal experience, I had exactly the same situation, I even had penalties for running late etc. All signed and agreed. At the end of the day it means nothing! I ended up going to the lawyer who told me "forget it, walk away,the guy has nothing, you cant get something from nothing, besides as a ferang you dont know who he knows or what his relatives will do if you make a serious problem for him, you wont sleep at night in that property, forget him, move on, dont throw more money and alot of time, get another builder to finish the work.

[chappie1207]

From my own personal experience, I had exactly the same situation, I even had penalties for running late etc. All signed and agreed. At the end of the day it means nothing! I ended up going to the lawyer who told me "forget it, walk away,the guy has nothing, you cant get something from nothing, besides as a ferang you dont know who he knows or what his relatives will do if you make a serious problem for him, you wont sleep at night in that property, forget him, move on, dont throw more money and alot of time, get another builder to finish the work.

Yes that is exactly what my friend has also been told by a few people. Such a sad country that does not regulate this industry and even if it did would it do any good?!?!

[HeijoshinCool]

From my own personal experience, I had exactly the same situation, I even had penalties for running late etc. All signed and agreed. At the end of the day it means nothing! I ended up going to the lawyer who told me "forget it, walk away,the guy has nothing, you cant get something from nothing, besides as a ferang you dont know who he knows or what his relatives will do if you make a serious problem for him, you wont sleep at night in that property, forget him, move on, dont throw more money and alot of time, get another builder to finish the work.

Yes that is exactly what my friend has also been told by a few people. Such a sad country that does not regulate this industry and even if it did would it do any good?!?!

No, it wouldn't. Not when face and racism are deeply involved.

[asiaexpat]

The situation sounds normal for Thailand. Having had several house built in the Bangkok area by reputable contractors, I found that they work the job that is closest to the money. However, they always completed the final work within the contract period. On several occasions when the milestone was not met, we negotiated compensation (usually in trade of some kind.) I never make a milestone payment if the work is not complete though, since they will consider payment as acceptance of the milestone as is. Your friend needs patience with control of the money.

[cup-O-coffee]

Agree with CharlieH. Write that last payment off as a lesson. Hire a new contractor and use the original as a reference, except this time divide it up into smaller stages and only issue monies at each stage. This means that you would have to be on this like "white on rice" and it will take up a lot of your time, but if you want results, historically the only way to get results is to keep them under your thumb or desperate for something that motivates them: money.

Another thought is to get photocopies of their ID cards and licenses to contract. Us foreigners take too much for granted when Thais "act" professional and everything is blah blah blah and worthless reams of contracts are photocopied in Thai and signatures go around the table, but with no copies of Thai IDs and Contractor licenses. Does anyone ever bother to have these contracts translated and to try to understand them? Not that it is going to do any good. The copies of the IDs would only be for the police reports, I guess. I wonder if anyone even bothers to go and check on the name of the contractor and the license before issuing one baht to them? But I digress. Been screwed too many times, myself. No more.

Due diligence, my friend. Due diligence.

These stories are becoming all too common. I wonder if this is some kind of pattern I am reading about: to complete a few stages for the foreigner and then pull a runner. There must be something in it that the Thais see as an opportunity to do with a certain feeling of impunity, but the foreigner does not see, and it seems to be going on a lot lately.

I simply wish that there was some way to get the information out in to the open on who these people are, with photographs and names and numbers; something done outside of the jurisdiction of the Thai law which protects these charlatans, yet easily accessible to those foreigners living in Thailand and wishing to engage in such a project. A website or blog with a foreign IP address? I_got_screwed.com? Just a thought.

Sorry to hear about this. I wish you all the best.

[thaibeachlovers]

Too late for your friend, but hopefully anyone else reading this thread will follow the very good advice often proffered on T V- NEVER buy property in Thailand, unless so rich you can walk away from it.

[donniereadit]

Usually with this type of work you pay when the project is completed, unless they want a deposit in some cases to cover materials.

[kiwiinasia]

Pay the boys in brown a commission to get him back.

[Benmart]

Pay the boys in brown a commission to get him back.

I would recommend not taking that path. Corruption breeds corruption and those you feed today, may feed upon you tommorow.

Just my 2-Bahts worth.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Benmart

[little mary sunshine]

Try to locate other job sites he has, go speak with him. You have nothing to lose, see if your

friends who recommended him can help locate him. If all this fails, you're just SOL....Post his

name and name of business on TV so others don't get ripped off.

[sailblue]

Done a lot of different work here, some clubs, condos and houses. Rarely does a job start and finish with the same builder.

One builder here I know is a nice guy and knows what he is doing, done dozens of condo fitouts for a developer invester friend, but hopeless on his cash flow so always has a string of people chasing him to finsih jobs. Since he has most of the money and maybe some problems with the job he does not go back.

Last couple of years okay as my brother in law is a good builder. If he wants a builder to finish it I can get him down. He is currently in Bung Kan and just asked me re work as he has just finished the job he had there. Great guy and will finish the job. He will bring a team with him, he has done all types of work in Pattaya condos houses and bar fitouts.

msge me to discuss is interested

[makecoldplayhistory]

you dont know who he knows or what his relatives will do if you make a serious problem for him, you wont sleep at night in that property

LOS? Is Thailand really as bad as TV suggests it is / might be?

...Boys in brown...

Who are these then? A quick google didn't enlighten me.

[Neeranam]

Too late for your friend, but hopefully anyone else reading this thread will follow the very good advice often proffered on T V- NEVER buy property in Thailand, unless so rich you can walk away from it.

I disagree. I just got a mortgage and certainly can't afford to walk away. I'd never build one myself though.

[chickenslegs]

you dont know who he knows or what his relatives will do if you make a serious problem for him, you wont sleep at night in that property

LOS? Is Thailand really as bad as TV suggests it is / might be?

...Boys in brown...

Who are these then? A quick google didn't enlighten me.

Organised criminals.... AKA the police (who wear tight brown uniforms).

[tingtongteesood]

Never EVER trust anyone until you have been to their house and you know where they live.....

[thaibeachlovers]

Too late for your friend, but hopefully anyone else reading this thread will follow the very good advice often proffered on T V- NEVER buy property in Thailand, unless so rich you can walk away from it.

I disagree. I just got a mortgage and certainly can't afford to walk away. I'd never build one myself though.

So what are you gonna do when an all night karaoke bar starts up next door ( or any of the other problems that have been discussed many many times on this very forum )?

[asiaexpat]

When selecting a contractor, always visit their office and some of their clients that have completed construction before signing any contract. If the contractor does not offer a copy of their ID and business registration during your visit, walk away. As for the three weeks with no work, be patient and look to the final completion date in the contract. If the delay will prevent final completion as scheduled, leave a message stating your concerns. Then follow up with a written notice of default from an attorney if you get no response. Just remember the Thai justice system will expect you to do everything in your power to resolve the issue before you seek legal action.

[Travel2003]

From my own personal experience, I had exactly the same situation, I even had penalties for running late etc. All signed and agreed. At the end of the day it means nothing! I ended up going to the lawyer who told me "forget it, walk away,the guy has nothing, you cant get something from nothing, besides as a ferang you dont know who he knows or what his relatives will do if you make a serious problem for him, you wont sleep at night in that property, forget him, move on, dont throw more money and alot of time, get another builder to finish the work.

Yes that is exactly what my friend has also been told by a few people. Such a sad country that does not regulate this industry and even if it did would it do any good?!?!

No, it wouldn't. Not when face and racism are deeply involved.

Nothing to do with racism.

Stop the drinking and the paranoia will soon disappear.

The mobaan I live in had some damages to the entrance of the area, due severe weather earlier this year, and a contractor was hired.

Same story. He moved on to do some other jobs as well, and promise to return in a few weeks or months to finish the job.

We are only 3 foreigners in this mobaan.

Nothing to do with racism.

It has to do with opportunism.

[HeijoshinCool]

From my own personal experience, I had exactly the same situation, I even had penalties for running late etc. All signed and agreed. At the end of the day it means nothing! I ended up going to the lawyer who told me "forget it, walk away,the guy has nothing, you cant get something from nothing, besides as a ferang you dont know who he knows or what his relatives will do if you make a serious problem for him, you wont sleep at night in that property, forget him, move on, dont throw more money and alot of time, get another builder to finish the work.

Yes that is exactly what my friend has also been told by a few people. Such a sad country that does not regulate this industry and even if it did would it do any good?!?!

No, it wouldn't. Not when face and racism are deeply involved.

Nothing to do with racism.

Stop the drinking and the paranoia will soon disappear.

The mobaan I live in had some damages to the entrance of the area, due severe weather earlier this year, and a contractor was hired.

Same story. He moved on to do some other jobs as well, and promise to return in a few weeks or months to finish the job.

We are only 3 foreigners in this mobaan.

Nothing to do with racism.

It has to do with opportunism.

No need for personal insults.

The conversation you commented on was regarding fixing the problem, not why it happened.

And there is a very big world outside your moo ban.

[HeijoshinCool]

From my own personal experience, I had exactly the same situation, I even had penalties for running late etc. All signed and agreed. At the end of the day it means nothing! I ended up going to the lawyer who told me "forget it, walk away,the guy has nothing, you cant get something from nothing, besides as a ferang you dont know who he knows or what his relatives will do if you make a serious problem for him, you wont sleep at night in that property, forget him, move on, dont throw more money and alot of time, get another builder to finish the work.

Yes that is exactly what my friend has also been told by a few people. Such a sad country that does not regulate this industry and even if it did would it do any good?!?!

No, it wouldn't. Not when face and racism are deeply involved.

Nothing to do with racism.

Stop the drinking and the paranoia will soon disappear.

The mobaan I live in had some damages to the entrance of the area, due severe weather earlier this year, and a contractor was hired.

Same story. He moved on to do some other jobs as well, and promise to return in a few weeks or months to finish the job.

We are only 3 foreigners in this mobaan.

Nothing to do with racism.

It has to do with opportunism.

No need for personal insults.

The conversation you commented on was regarding fixing the problem, not why it happened.

And there is a very big world outside your moo ban.

[Travel2003]

I apologize for insults.

However, it has nothing to do with racism.

Opportunistic Thais are also cheating other Thais.

To OP:

If it only costs 10-15 000 baht, then engage a Lawyer.

You might not anything back, but at least the contractor will be aware.

[HeijoshinCool]

I apologize for insults.

However, it has nothing to do with racism.

Opportunistic Thais are also cheating other Thais.

To OP:

If it only costs 10-15 000 baht, then engage a Lawyer.

You might not anything back, but at least the contractor will be aware.

Thanks.

Yeah, Thai on Thai is common, as the GF bears witness to almost weekly of neighborhood doings.

But racism exists everywhere, and Thais have not made as much progress in that area as the west. While many don't practice it to any practical degree, the odds in most legal battles here are stacked against "farangs" from the get-go.

And being a westerner, the OP's buddy will definitely take a backseat to any disgruntled Thai customers.

[Travel2003]

I apologize for insults.

However, it has nothing to do with racism.

Opportunistic Thais are also cheating other Thais.

To OP:

If it only costs 10-15 000 baht, then engage a Lawyer.

You might not anything back, but at least the contractor will be aware.

Thanks.

Yeah, Thai on Thai is common, as the GF bears witness to almost weekly of neighborhood doings.

But racism exists everywhere, and Thais have not made as much progress in that area as the west. While many don't practice it to any practical degree, the odds in most legal battles here are stacked against "farangs" from the get-go.

And being a westerner, the OP's buddy will definitely take a backseat to any disgruntled Thai customers.

For a local scoundrel it is "manna from heaven" when foreigners who is used to other ways to deal, comes along.

If OP wants to follow up, and if he has more recourses than the local guy, and might use the good old greed to his advantage (bribe BiB for higher priority, etc).

But sadly, as we all probably agree upon, it will be difficult to get money back.

[thongsuknork]

Do not go any where just be patient it will be done by your old contractor he will finish the job as i faced the same situation and waited 4 weeks and it was completed finally just be patient no lawyer or no Tamluat (police ) have patience

[HeijoshinCool]

Do not go any where just be patient it will be done by your old contractor he will finish the job as i faced the same situation and waited 4 weeks and it was completed finally just be patient no lawyer or no Tamluat (police ) have patience

Since your buddy doesn't seem to have any viable options, worth a try?

[Benmart]

you dont know who he knows or what his relatives will do if you make a serious problem for him, you wont sleep at night in that property

LOS? Is Thailand really as bad as TV suggests it is / might be?

...Boys in brown...

Who are these then? A quick google didn't enlighten me.

Organised criminals.... AKA the police (who wear tight brown uniforms).

True, there are some corrupt police, as there are in every country. I've met some very honest ones, but I don't know nor have I met them all.

I have not done indepth rsearch or studied a reputable paper on crimes commited by or the corruption of the Royal Thai Police. Therefore, I am not qualified to make a generalized statement about the police criminality/organization factor. If I did so, it would at best, be speculation and heresay.