Hiding your western culture, moral and mindset...

[khunpa]

I have lived most of my life abroad in several different countries and cultures (7 years in South East Asia). No matter where I have lived and worked, I have always done my best to adapt and respect the local culture, traditions etc.

This is of course also important in Thailand. You have to respect, that the way of thinking is sometimes very different here if you want to live here. Especially if you are not isolated in an expat community and you live amongst Thai people like I do.

Even though, I am always doing my best to adapt and fit in, I however also take deep pride in not losing my own culture and my own way of thinking. I fully respect that Thais can think differently, but they must then also respect me and that I also can think different and "lose face" in my own way. This of course sometimes results in culture clashes and challenges, but I also find that I get respect from the Thais I know, when I explain how I think.

However, what I have also noticed (also on this forum), is that many expats and foreigners connected to Thailand simply say... "This is the Thai way, just live with it...". And in many situations, that is also the best way to handle a situation here. BUT sometimes, I also see situations where it in my opinion is used completely wrong. Like e.g. the latest tread with the horrible haircut of the young boy at school. Some people say... "This is Thailand, just accept it" and others warn about trouble, if e.g. the OP goes to the police.

It is like some Farang's would accept close to anything here - even if in is completely against normal western moral and understanding. Sometimes even, when it is against normal Thai-understanding itself. Its like the attitude sometimes is: "I am a Farang and therefore I better just bow my head and stay low". And I simply do not understand that...

First of all, because Thai-people must also learn to respect other peoples ways of thinking and how will they ever learn to respect others, if nobody tells them?. They do not have to agree, but must at least know that people think differently. And if some foreigners living here, are so scared of speaking their own mind and also show their western mindset towards Thais, then why do they choose to live here?

As mentioned, I feel I get respect from Thai people (both at work and at home), when I clearly say what is on my mind - and make them understand, that I think differently sometimes. I am also not afraid to tell anyone, if they e.g. are or have offended me according to my western mindset and understanding. I of course do it in a nice and decent way, so nobody loses face... But I for sure I say it, when I feel things are wrong in relation to how I think. I will not just sit and agree constantly, because I live in Thailand and a Thai person says it is the "Thai-way"...

I do not care if it is the "Thai-way", if it is the wrong way for me and goes directly against my moral and common sense, then I will say so.

Am I the only one that feels like some foreigners here are kind of "scared" to show their own culture towards Thai-people? Its like some Farang's have ended up being even more Thai-thinking, than Thai-people themselves. Like e.g. a Farang will say: "Oh no, do not go to the police - they will do nothing for sure" and then when you ask a Thai-person for advice on the same issue, they will say: "I would just go to the police"...

It seems like sometimes the "Thai-way" is being so much overdone, that it even conflicts with common sense - and even the way normal Thai-people think. Why is that?

Edited November 29, 2013 by khunpa

[David48]

I say ... do what's best for you.

If you like to be a 'Farang Island' ... then great.

If you want to 'Thaier then Thai' ... good also.

If the best compromise for you lays somewhere in-between these two styles ... even better.

My personal opinion, the happiest people are those who are adjustable to their surroundings without compromising their core principles.

That's me ... and maybe you ...

.

[thehelmsman]

I'm so ashamed of myself for putting ice in my beer. I know its wrong and goes against western thinking. I've actually come to like it.

[Kangawallafox]

I will always respect thai culture in everyway however some things they do wrong are put down to culture by them and others but the truth is are really going against their true culture.

I will respect their true culture but I cannot change the aussie in me.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Thai at Heart]

Well, inherently you can't act Thai 100% so just be yourself. You can choose to bite your tongue, but believe me, there will come a point where something so bad it so stupid will happen you will have to speak up.

My moment was watching the mother of the bride and the mia noi arguing about how much of the sin sot they were entitled to.

It's a fascinating culture, but sometimes it is just impossible not to say something.

[David48]

My moment was watching the mother of the bride and the mia noi arguing about how much of the sin sot they were entitled to.

WOW ... and some of

Not one I've seen and don't know how I would have reacted.

Probably too dumbfounded to actually comment!

.

[Thai at Heart]

My moment was watching the mother of the bride and the mia noi arguing about how much of the sin sot they were entitled to.

WOW ... and some of

Not one I've seen and don't know how I would have reacted.

Probably too dumbfounded to actually comment!

.

It wasn't my bride. I was best man. Lol

No one knew I could speak Thai. I heartily recommend anyone living long term to work hard at learning Thai. It's very very enlightening.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[beachproperty]

Funny thing is ....lets reverse the situation....look at immigration by muslims in "Western" countries;;;;First thing that comes to mind is the westerners saying "they came to OUR country so why don't they accept our culture if they want to live here....otherwise LEAVE"

Double standard....pair for the course in western thinking.....whats good for us MUST be good for everbody...

OP mentions the School haircut thing.....well if you look at 90% of the postings the "Western" way is to pulverized the administrator, get revenge etc....

very few thought of discipline, school unity, etc....

When I grew up ....Things were MUCH different ....NO PC!.....I got "whacked" anytime I was out of line....AND parents supported the teachers.....

What has the world come to.....PC!

[benalibina]

To adapt is to know 1self and its surroundings. Living in thailand it is very handy to learn the language. Everyone expects you dont know thai. Use that advantage. The people with a i dont care mentality can have a good life. My eyes truly opened when i became a father and lived in the province of wifes birth. Well i choose the wrong circles because the things i mentioned about the wrongs were only little taken in account. Not having kids gives an easier life in LOS. Up to them ! Having kids and learning them things, thinking, 1 cannot close 1s eyes. This said however it doesnt mean that we dont critisize the mentality of many people in our own countries. Good is good, bad is bad. Regardless of country.

Edited November 29, 2013 by benalibina

[tgeezer]

Funny thing is ....lets reverse the situation....look at immigration by muslims in "Western" countries;;;;First thing that comes to mind is the westerners saying "they came to OUR country so why don't they accept our culture if they want to live here....otherwise LEAVE"

Double standard....pair for the course in western thinking.....whats good for us MUST be good for everbody...

OP mentions the School haircut thing.....well if you look at 90% of the postings the "Western" way is to pulverized the administrator, get revenge etc....

very few thought of discipline, school unity, etc....

When I grew up ....Things were MUCH different ....NO PC!.....I got "whacked" anytime I was out of line....AND parents supported the teachers.....

What has the world come to.....PC!

I think the same, I reject foreigners who want to change our system to the one they escaped from, because it is illogical.

Report of incidents at children's football in England, of fighting among parents, of one referee who was attacked by a parent, show that these are not parents, they are hooligans. To take the side of a child against another child, adult or referee, at a football match, is to fail the child by rejecting the concept of sport.

Aliens who aspire to live in a foreign land but who reject that societies values are seen as hooligans and the fear is that they will breed hooligans.

"What has the World come to?" Goodness knows but it isn't contentment.

,

Edited November 30, 2013 by tgeezer

[kikoman]

Funny thing is ....lets reverse the situation....look at immigration by muslims in "Western" countries;;;;First thing that comes to mind is the westerners saying "they came to OUR country so why don't they accept our culture if they want to live here....otherwise LEAVE"

Double standard....pair for the course in western thinking.....whats good for us MUST be good for everbody...

OP mentions the School haircut thing.....well if you look at 90% of the postings the "Western" way is to pulverized the administrator, get revenge etc....

very few thought of discipline, school unity, etc....

When I grew up ....Things were MUCH different ....NO PC!.....I got "whacked" anytime I was out of line....AND parents supported the teachers.....

What has the world come to.....PC!

Very true, this is "America Love it or leave it" is what an immigrant hears, from the natives back home.

I have lived in a Thai village for 10 years and have never had a disagreement with anyone over my way vs the Thai way, I have never hidden my true natural identity,and display it openly in my home, most in the village know I am a "Mexico Farang".

Learning to live in a different culture is in no way prostituting your principals to those of your host country. Understanding the "land of the land" is vital anywhere you go, what is acceptable in one country is not in the other. In the west the law is mostly based on an individuals rights, many laws are based on an individuals rights such as the U.S. reading a person's rights at the time they are arrested, based on the Supreme court case of Miranda vs the State of Arizona.

An example was given based upon the thread of the young mans forced haircut at school, It is common knowledge in the village if a student does not cut their hair according to school regulations, the school will cut their hair for them. While the school has relaxed dress code hair standards, the hair is still required to be neat in appearance, what is neat is left up to the discretion of the school.

Many laws are practiced in our home country's that I have disagreed with in the past in school as in any other places, Corporal Punishment in schools, again changing in the home country but still widely practiced in home country schools, that right of the schools is based on the U.S. Supreme Courts "Tinker Decision" that the school acts in place of the parent, like it or not it is the "law of the land".

I gave up nothing, to abide by the laws of my new Thai culture I choose to live in.

Cheers

[CharlieH]

The Op mentioned about "accepting close to anything here", and being scared.

I think the difference for some if not many here is that they know and have heard and perhaps been almost brainwashed into being "careful" about what they do, as the repercussions for a "ferang" are different and often costly.

Things in this and other countries are not the same for a visitor as they are for a local. This forum is littered with such experiences. I would suggest the restraint exercised is based on the fear of whatever "might happen" when you cant speak the language, the local police are biased, and you push to hard in the wrong direction and you may even impact your visa status etc.

That isnt the same as many western countries where you have a degeree of confidence and faith in both the Police and legal system. That usnt the case here, anything can happen and potentially having your freedom and possibly your home and family in the balance if you are retired here etc is naturally going to make you tread more carefully in some situations and react differently to what you otherwise would because the consequences are far different and often uncertain.

[dao16]

I don't know about this "hiding" my cultural mores or beliefs. I think there is a compromise that you make as you recognize that you are in a foreign country. You change the way you do things to a certain extent so you can live here. I certainly expect it from people who go to live in my country of birth. So, you pick your battles. A lot of stuff really can just be dropped or maneuvered around, minimizing conflict.

However, there are times when you have to draw a line. Every person has to decide where their lines are based on how much trouble something is worth. To take the haircut case as an example, I seriously wouldn't call the police. I would either A)get the kid a haircut (it looked like a quick go-over with the clippers would have cleaned up his hair) or B ) gone down to the school in a calm mindset and tried to figure out why this was done. That has more to do with getting the police involved anywhere, though.

Like other things in life, you face each situation one at a time and deal with each one accordingly. No need to "hide" anything from anyone.

Edited November 30, 2013 by dao16

[Ajaan]

There are unfortunately some farangs who have been in Thailand a while and fancy themselves as having "gone native," to the point that they adopt the horribly misinformed, irrational Thai ways of analyzing the world, not to mention spouting totally false Thai revisionist theories of history (especially regarding the history of Thailand and its neighbors) and ideas of "nation" and "Thainess," and slavish, unquestioning devotion to certain institutions created in the past 50 years or so (institutions which we're not allowed to discuss critically on this forum).

Thais have an excuse for believing these things: they were brainwashed (and not taught critical thinking skills) from an early age. Farangs who should know better have NO excuse for adopting (and promoting) such idiotic ways of thinking.

Of course, if one is going to live in Thailand, one should a) learn the language fluently and conform to Thai modes of social interaction...and that includes knowing when to just smile and keep one's mouth shut! But one also has to use the critical thinking skills one had the great fortune to learn in one's own (Western) country, and know when to draw the line. To thine own self be true!

[Dararasmi]

I hide everything. (But never in the hotel room safe.)

[krisb]

My moment was watching the mother of the bride and the mia noi arguing about how much of the sin sot they were entitled to.

WOW ... and some of

Not one I've seen and don't know how I would have reacted.

Probably too dumbfounded to actually comment!

.

That would be awesome to watch and see how it was divided up.

It raises the question of heirachy Thai style. I would guess 80% to mil, 20% to mia noi.

[bocceball1]

Khunpa states......However, what I have also noticed (also on this forum), is that many expats and foreigners connected to Thailand simply say... "This is the Thai way, just live with it...". And in many situations, that is also the best way to handle a situation here. BUT sometimes, I also see situations where it in my opinion is used completely wrong. Like e.g. the latest tread with the horrible haircut of the young boy at school. Some people say... "This is Thailand, just accept it" and others warn about trouble, if e.g. the OP goes to the police.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you missed the train on this one....you seem to contradict yourself in saying how well traveled you are and how adaptable you are...Apparently your NOT......and then you state the above!

The situation you speak of (boy getting haircut by school director) is not something specific to Thailand (so your analysis "this is Thailand just accept it" is WRONG!

If you thought with your brains rather than your nether regions you'd realize that "discipline" is something the schools, governments, companies etc. need to promote. Without discipline we have ANARCHY (but maybe that's something your promoting....I'm not).......

The director apparently had problems with the boy in the past ....(farther states he would get notice from the school THEN give the boy a haircut) .....well I think the father is the problem by not staying on top to the boys hair style.....and you're encouraging his diliquent behavior by blaming the school director...

All this Politcal Correctness.....must be the youth of today....brought up as mambi pambi's....and coddled.....get over it!....

[ultimate weapon]

lives in thailand but expects to behave differently. OK.

[recom273]

To quote the OP ..

"First of all, because Thai-people must also learn to respect other peoples ways of thinking and how will they ever learn to respect others .. "

I like your thinking there, I continue to try this, but i can't think of a time in 10 years when it has worked for me.

[Wat dee]

I'm so ashamed of myself for putting ice in my beer. I know its wrong and goes against western thinking. I've actually come to like it.

You are one sick man!! Seek help!!

[nithisa78]

First, do no harm.

[beachproperty]

I gotta laugh....

Khunpa states....."....and then when you ask a Thai-person for advice on the same issue, they will say: "I would just go to the police"..."

Well I have asked a number of "Thai-person" ...and the LAST person they would go to is the police.....WHY....I have been told by them they " do not trust the police"...

Soooo, Khunpa....not sure what country you living in BUT its NOT Thailand.....and if it is (which I doubt)....your not speaking to the "average" Thai.

[Hedghog]

I think I have adapted.

If anything needs doing,do it tomorrow.

[DGIE]

David48 said:the happiest people are those who are adjustable to their surroundings without compromising their core principles

You are correct! me too!

[Bpuumike]

I say ... do what's best for you.

If you like to be a 'Farang Island' ... then great.

If you want to 'Thaier then Thai' ... good also.

If the best compromise for you lays somewhere in-between these two styles ... even better.

My personal opinion, the happiest people are those who are adjustable to their surroundings without compromising their core principles.

That's me ... and maybe you ...

.

Well said, nothing to add to that.

[pacharaphet]

Khunpa states......However, what I have also noticed (also on this forum), is that many expats and foreigners connected to Thailand simply say... "This is the Thai way, just live with it...". And in many situations, that is also the best way to handle a situation here. BUT sometimes, I also see situations where it in my opinion is used completely wrong. Like e.g. the latest tread with the horrible haircut of the young boy at school. Some people say... "This is Thailand, just accept it" and others warn about trouble, if e.g. the OP goes to the police.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you missed the train on this one....you seem to contradict yourself in saying how well traveled you are and how adaptable you are...Apparently your NOT......and then you state the above!

The situation you speak of (boy getting haircut by school director) is not something specific to Thailand (so your analysis "this is Thailand just accept it" is WRONG!

If you thought with your brains rather than your nether regions you'd realize that "discipline" is something the schools, governments, companies etc. need to promote. Without discipline we have ANARCHY (but maybe that's something your promoting....I'm not).......

The director apparently had problems with the boy in the past ....(farther states he would get notice from the school THEN give the boy a haircut) .....well I think the father is the problem by not staying on top to the boys hair style.....and you're encouraging his diliquent behavior by blaming the school director...

All this Politcal Correctness.....must be the youth of today....brought up as mambi pambi's....and coddled.....get over it!....

Are you serious? I think you "missed the train"......the person commenting here was referring to a group of people (if I understand correctly, westerners, not thais) who like to use the "yeah, c'mon, it's Thailand, that's the way things are" to explain everything, taking an even more complacent attitude than many Thais. However, it seems you are one of those people....you fail to see that not everyone sees "hair style" to be tied to "delinquency"...and the second he says he doesn't agree, you come in saying he must want ANARCHY.....what?

anyway, my main point is, your statement: "your analysis is wrong" is seriously off base.....the poster did not say "this is thailand, just accept it" nor did they say "this only happens in thailand".....the point was not made whether other countries have these practices or not....the point was the use of the simple explanation "this is thailand, get over it" to explain any kind of issue in Thailand, which totally deflects an opportunity to engage in an exchange of opinion. At least you are expressing your opinion, but you are kind of attacking from a point that seems to have no traction as the poster didn't say what you implied.

[Bpuumike]

I'm so ashamed of myself for putting ice in my beer. I know its wrong and goes against western thinking. I've actually come to like it.

Would never do it with English Real Ale on pain of death.

I don't really like bottled beers so drinking with ice is my only way, but it does seem to remove a lot of the gas, which is good.

[Bpuumike]

I think I have adapted.

If anything needs doing,do it tomorrow.

Unless it involves the bedroom aircon.

[krisb]

Just be yourself.

It works.

[bocceball1]

Khunpa states......However, what I have also noticed (also on this forum), is that many expats and foreigners connected to Thailand simply say... "This is the Thai way, just live with it...". And in many situations, that is also the best way to handle a situation here. BUT sometimes, I also see situations where it in my opinion is used completely wrong. Like e.g. the latest tread with the horrible haircut of the young boy at school. Some people say... "This is Thailand, just accept it" and others warn about trouble, if e.g. the OP goes to the police.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you missed the train on this one....you seem to contradict yourself in saying how well traveled you are and how adaptable you are...Apparently your NOT......and then you state the above!

The situation you speak of (boy getting haircut by school director) is not something specific to Thailand (so your analysis "this is Thailand just accept it" is WRONG!

If you thought with your brains rather than your nether regions you'd realize that "discipline" is something the schools, governments, companies etc. need to promote. Without discipline we have ANARCHY (but maybe that's something your promoting....I'm not).......

The director apparently had problems with the boy in the past ....(farther states he would get notice from the school THEN give the boy a haircut) .....well I think the father is the problem by not staying on top to the boys hair style.....and you're encouraging his diliquent behavior by blaming the school director...

All this Politcal Correctness.....must be the youth of today....brought up as mambi pambi's....and coddled.....get over it!....

Are you serious? I think you "missed the train"......the person commenting here was referring to a group of people (if I understand correctly, westerners, not thais) who like to use the "yeah, c'mon, it's Thailand, that's the way things are" to explain everything, taking an even more complacent attitude than many Thais. However, it seems you are one of those people....you fail to see that not everyone sees "hair style" to be tied to "delinquency"...and the second he says he doesn't agree, you come in saying he must want ANARCHY.....what?

anyway, my main point is, your statement: "your analysis is wrong" is seriously off base.....the poster did not say "this is thailand, just accept it" nor did they say "this only happens in thailand".....the point was not made whether other countries have these practices or not....the point was the use of the simple explanation "this is thailand, get over it" to explain any kind of issue in Thailand, which totally deflects an opportunity to engage in an exchange of opinion. At least you are expressing your opinion, but you are kind of attacking from a point that seems to have no traction as the poster didn't say what you implied.

Yes....I am expressing my opinion....and the point you miss is that Khunpa refers to another thread (kid who's school director gives him a buzz cut)....and he is outraged at those TV poster's who believe that a more concilatory attitude be taken (TIT attitude) vs the Testosterone, "kick some ass" attitude of other TV posters....

The father in the case in question has had previous problems and notifications of hair violations to which he always waited too long to get the hair cut....Soooo the school took the iniatiative to do it themselves.....and therein lies the crux of the question.....Was the school director out of line or not....My personal feeling ...NOT....discipline was needed and discipline was given....Problem solved!

You on the other hand have decided (without knowing all the facts) to attack my position....fine....but get your facts straight before you do....Always best to know of what you speak....don't you think