I had my British Embassy Income letter rejected by immigration for my annual extension of stay - Ban

[jpinx]

I believe this is the scenario I was worried about, and which I raised on a few previous posts (years ago).

Pensions don't always come in automatic monthly payments for life. You can cash in the entire amount or take it as an annually paid annuity, depending on the type of pension(s) you have.

Let's say I cashed out my pension and then go to the US Embassy in Bangkok and swear that I have the ability to pay myself 65,000+ baht a month for the coming year, assuming I have at least $26,000+ in a liquid account somewhere in the world.

That should, in theory, satisfy Immo requirements, since they are looking for financial viability, not a regular source of retirement income.

But if they will not accept a foreign bank statement/letter as the source of monthly income, then that could force people without the monthly automatic pension payment to use the 800,000 baht "bond" method. (Jingthing pipe down).

It would be interesting if anyone else has had this experience with an Immo office since there may be a number of ex-pats here without guaranteed monthly pension income who do not want to park 800,000 in Thailand (even for 3 months) but have the liquid resources held in their home countries (or elsewhere).

The OP was talking about the UK embassy, but I believe that different embassies have different requirements for them to write the required letter to immigration.

Thailand immigration only want that letter initially, but they do have the right to ask for backup proof if they feel like it.

Once again - we have to remember that embassy requirements are not the same as immigration requirements .

[spambot]

I think more often than not these kinds of nonsense problems is immigrations way of asking for some tea money.

Yup - I did wonder that myself as she sat looking at the same nine lines of text on the income letter for over four minutes.

And yes I did think about what might be the right amount and how to offer it - Then I thought maybe its a legit issue she has and then I am in deeper than I was before by doing something which is in fact illegal.

So on balance unless she was going to explicitly ask for something I was not going to presume that I should offer something - At least I though if I do nothing I have a clear route to complain from and not worried about an issue that might come back to bite me if I was to get this situation examined more closely.

[Sceptict11]

Suspect this problem arose because "income" was evidenced by bank statements which did not demonstrate a total annual source of income.

[JLCrab]

Well if they are being picky about some wording in what you handed to them and you signed a document saying you:

... would never be allowed to present income statements from the British Embassy again in any future applications for an extension.

... then maybe you are OK because according to the UK Embassy website what they provide you with is a "Consular letter confirming pension/income for Thai Immigration .. confirming your pension/income to support the renewal/extension of your retirement visa" and it doesn't say anything about a 'statement'.

[Jingthing]

Suspect this problem arose because "income" was evidenced by bank statements which did not demonstrate a total annual source of income.

I also suspect that. If the document had said the income was evidenced by some kind of official source of the income such as a pension payer (or better NO details at all), I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

[Thai Chi]

No! There is absolutely no requirement whatsoever to IMPORT even one baht of your stated income letter income. This has NOT changed to be a requirement. There are grey areas in this report but if there was a national rule change to require that claimed income to be IMPORTED, we would know about for sure in some kind of grand announcement. That would be huge (and unwelcome).

Thanks that is good to know.

I have rental income in the US but never tried the income method.

Seemed easier to just put the required amount in a Thai bank.

But if you need not even bring the money in.......That is easier

Does make you wonder a bit though. Since I assumed the whole point is to show you

have funds here to live on. Hence the months of seasoning required for the cash method

Ah well TIT

Slightly off topic as the OP dosent use this method but .....

Despite the very clear criteria shown in Police Order 777/2551 2.22 In the case of retirement: (5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date I know of several cases where "seasoning" of the deposited funds have been required.

What makes it worse is that prior to a change of counter staff, this particular immigration office use to follow the above to the letter.

Anyone else heard of this happening?

[JLCrab]

What I'm taking away from all this is, if at all possible, avoid the 'combination method' of income ex-Thailand + funds in a Thai bank

[spambot]

Well if they are being picky about some wording in what you handed to them and you signed a document saying you:

... would never be allowed to present income statements from the British Embassy again in any future applications for an extension.

... then maybe you are OK because according to the UK Embassy website what they provide you with is a "Consular letter confirming pension/income for Thai Immigration .. confirming your pension/income to support the renewal/extension of your retirement visa" and it doesn't say anything about a 'statement'.

Good input - The verbal conclusion given by the officer at immigration was just exactly this.

But what she asked me to write down (in my handwriting) was slightly different - What she actually dictated to me and asked me to then sign was - That I would only make extension applications in the future via 800,000 Baht deposited into a Thai bank. She then said verbally (a few times) that I would not be able to use a British Embassy income letter. And by deduction from what I had to write I was left believing that I had also no further option for the income letter.

I said to her that in the next 12 months I intend to get married to a Thai national (this is not true) hence 800,000 is the wrong number - But at this point I had exhausted my options and I was now trying any new brain wave to try to get the statement rescinded, but I believed from her expression that the decision to ask me to make the statement had probably come from her boss and now she was not willing to respond.

[spambot]

Suspect this problem arose because "income" was evidenced by bank statements which did not demonstrate a total annual source of income.

I also suspect that. If the document had said the income was evidenced by some kind of official source of the income such as a pension payer (or better NO details at all), I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

I am starting to now believe that this is true also.

[spambot]

What I'm taking away from all this is, if at all possible, avoid the 'combination method' of income ex-Thailand + funds in a Thai bank

From my end - I don't have any other choices - now 8+}

[TaoNow]

I draw a different conclusion:

An off-shore bank statement in excess of 800,000 baht equivalent in liquid funds (or combo balance) is insufficient proof of financial viability for the coming year (as per OP's experience).

What I am saying is this: According to Immo regs, there is no technical difference between a monthly-paid pension by a government or financial institution and a checking account in your name in the same, annualized amount. The problem is with interpretation of back-up docs by a given Immo office.

If folks disagree or do not understand this point, please post.

[JLCrab]

I draw a different conclusion:

An off-shore bank statement in excess of 800,000 baht equivalent in liquid funds (or combo balance) is insufficient proof of financial viability for the coming year (as per OP's experience).

What I am saying is this: According to Immo regs, there is no technical difference between a monthly-paid pension by a government or financial institution and a checking account in your name in the same, annualized amount. The problem is with interpretation of back-up docs by a given Immo office.

If folks disagree or do not understand this point, please post.

If you would be unable to provide IMM with corroborating documents to your sworn income affidavit should they so request then what would be the point?

[spambot]

I draw a different conclusion:

An off-shore bank statement in excess of 800,000 baht equivalent in liquid funds (or combo balance) is insufficient proof of financial viability for the coming year (as per OP's experience).

What I am saying is this: According to Immo regs, there is no technical difference between a monthly-paid pension by a government or financial institution and a checking account in your name in the same, annualized amount. The problem is with interpretation of back-up docs by a given Immo office.

If folks disagree or do not understand this point, please post.

I'm not sure if you were thinking that I showed just a statement from UK with an amount greater than 800k Baht - Just for clarification I showed bank statement with regular deposits and had backup docs to show the sources (rental agreement from service company managing the rental and 5 year bond fixed income). The Embassy did not want to see the sources docs - just the bank statements showing regular income..

However outside this - The interpretation does seem to be at the root of the issue - In my case I have no idea what they thought (that they were looking at) or what they had the problem with. i.e interpretation - Since I had the backup docs for the sources with me but they were only interested in the wording on the letter from the Embassy.

[TaoNow]

Right, spambot. In my opinion, what you provided was above and beyond what should be needed to show financial viability for a one-year period.

So, I think there should be some concern about this since the interpretation of back-up docs is subjective.

Thanks for posting and let us know what happens next year!

TN

[sms747]

I hate to be the one to gently remind you that you DO need a favour from immigration officers - you are an uninvited guest in their country. They are enpowered to interpret the rules as they see fit. As I said above - they are interviewing applicants - not rubber-stamping them.

No we do not need favours and they do not give us any. The fact that feel they can interpret the rules as they see is not fair, legal or just. We should have confidence in them applying the rules as they are, and not to suit their every whim and mood, or to try and do us a 'favour' via a bribe.

[Maestro]

The US Embassy affidavit states that you "affirm that I receive US$ __ every month" and that should IMM request you would need to show a deposit in some bank of that amount every month.

Is it this affidavit to which you are referring?

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/income_affidavit_retirees.pdf

I can't find the part about "show a deposit in some bank of that amount every month"

[Maestro]

From the OP:

Quick overview of the income letter: On the income letter the first three lines typed are to convey my identity and my passport number. The next two lines identify my address in Thailand and the next three lines identify my monthly total with annual total / source of the revenue. This is the part she did not like – Where the wording says

“and has shown us banking statements from Yorkshire bank stating that he receives incomes totalling GBP xxx”

...Just for clarification I showed bank statement with regular deposits and had backup docs to show the sources (rental agreement from service company managing the rental and 5 year bond fixed income). The Embassy did not want to see the sources docs - just the bank statements showing regular income...

I believe it has been a long-standing practice of the British embassy to certify money being deposited in a bank account as income. This method is open to abuse because I can have two bank accounts and for 12 months make monthly remittances of a certain amount from account A to account B, subsequently make these remittances from account B to account A for the next 12 months, repeat indefinitely and thus always have proof of the required amounts of money coming into my account. Yours is the second topic I have seen in recent months where an immigration office did not accept moneys being credited to a bank account as evidence of earnings or income.

Your embassy letter does not state that your Yorkshire bank is paying you income totalling GBP xxx or that you are receiving this income from your Yorkshire bank, but it gave that impression. In fact, the only income, if any, you receive from your bank are interest payments.

Has this type of income letter perhaps been abused by some applicants for extension of stay and immigration has caught on to it? What could you have done and what can others with rental income do to avoid this problem with immigration?

1. Do not give the embassy a copy the bank statements evidencing the deposits to your account. Instead, if the tenants pay the rent directly into your account, obtain and submit affidavits from the tenants; if an estate agent collects the rent and remits it to your account, use an affidavit from this agent.
   
2. Do not overload the immigration officer with information regarding your income. Start by giving the bare minimum, ie the embassy letter. Only if asked for supporting documents, give the affidavits from the persons or entities who paid you this income. Do not give a statement from the bank into which these monies are paid; it is not evidence of income and may only confuse the officer.

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post.

[Lobo4819]

Remember, you are in Thailand. It is entirely possible that the officer realized s/he had made a mistake, but could not lose face. As a consequence, you are left with an entirely ridiculous fire drill to run through.

Give it a couple of months, then go back and speak only to the director of the office. Ask specifically what you will need to renew your visa and what documentation. Have them look up your file on-screen. Play confused and innocent. Since you are right and they are wrong, diplomatically ask them for a checklist (keep for your next visit) of how you can renew your visa. Avoid any nuance of the face that was lost or the person who f**ked up.

You will probably get a good response.

[Maestro]

I think it would be too late to ask for a checklist now, as theoretically the rules can change at any time with a new Police order. Four months before the expiration of the current extension would be the appropriate time to make preparations for the next application.

[JLCrab]

The US Embassy affidavit states that you "affirm that I receive US$ __ every month" and that should IMM request you would need to show a deposit in some bank of that amount every month.

Is it this affidavit to which you are referring?

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/income_affidavit_retirees.pdf

I can't find the part about "show a deposit in some bank of that amount every month"

I was referring to the hypothetical scenario offered in Post #57

[mesquite]

OP, you can ignore it.

They are always doing this type of stuff, finding some type of phony problem and telling you they will let it pass, but "NEXT TIME" make sure you don't do it.

It means nothing. They have done this type of thing to me twice. Once with a minor issue with the letter, and once when they asked me for evidence of my pension. When I showed the lady the pension evidence, she seemed surprised I actually had it, so instead of being able to say, "next time bring in the evidence of the pension," she had to say, "next time show me this evidence, too, when I ask you for the Embassy letter."

My guess is they forgot about it a minute later. Certainly a year later they will not even remember you or this alleged transgression.

Don't worry about it.

Edited December 2, 2013 by mesquite

[DonaldBattles]

I have always felt that I am not welcome in this country. Now that the government is under fire I believe that many office will take out their spite on farangs. I have a RP and only have to report every 8 years and pay a fee.

[jacko45k]

For next year you might want to put the whole 800K in a Thai bank at least 90 days before applying for your extension and then try using the income letter first without showing them the bank letter to see what happens and if they reject you based on that notation they put in your records this year then use your bank letter. We all know the rules of the game change from year to year, location to location and officer to officer but that bank letter is always your ace in the hole.

Actually that is good thinking - And a solid suggestion that is a - what to do next - type thinking.

I was thinking that if the OP can afford to do that, just go with the bank letter and forget about the useless Embassy letter that is overpriced and an effort to procure.

[hansnl]

Looks like you may have had the misfortune to encounter an officer who got out of bed the wrong side that day. But why don't you provide the Embassy with the latest statement(s) from your UK income provider(s) (as I do) instead of from your UK bank? These include gross figures (as distinct from the net figures in your Yorkshire Bank statements), which might make all the difference as to whether or not you need a Kasikorn letter as well.

You might also be strongly advised to be accompanied by a native Thai speaker for future trips to Immigration for extension of stay purposes.

I asked my friendly neighbour, I see her every quarter in some office.

Indeed, the wording on the document provided by the Embassy is the problem.

The bank in the UK declares etc, etc, etc.

Nowadays the imiigration office would like to see the letter from the Embassy accompanied by the document(s) from the pension provider.

Solution?

Next time bring the letter from the Embassy accompanied by the pesnion fund letters.

Why is this?

In fact the Embassy letter does not state the income, but only states what you tell them.

And ratifies your signature.

Same with the letters from the US and Dutch Embassies.

[Anon999]

Sounds like a confusion over the fact that the embassy letter mentioned a bank that the officer does not know.

Yup - That is a possibility, but unfortunately no one is saying - And really I or anyone else should not be expected to simply guess what the reason might be when faced with a difficult situation at immigration like this.

The embassy letter should only be confirming the amount - not the source.

I suggest you take it up with the embassy.

Immigration officers have absolute power over you - that is just the way it works.

The Embassy states that they issue a standard letter. However, I always ask for the monthly and annual amounts to be stated. There is no requirement for the source to be quoted and has never been stated on my income letters.

Maybe you should have signed the TM7 and written underneath 'Signed under duress'.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Anon999

[Time Traveller]

Yes, basically the immigration officers can do whatever they like when it comes time for your extension application. But spambot shouldn't feel bad, I've had immigration reject my income documents even when the documents came from the Thai revenue department itself.

Just put the money in a thai bank account - it's much easier.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Time Traveller

[dfp]

The embassy should based on verification of pension providers just issue the statement that "person so and so is receiving an annual retirement income of XX amount converted to THB".

What went wrong in this case must be the inclusion of Yorkshire Bank.

[lucifer666]

When i changed from a student visa to a retirement visa a few weeks ago, i showed them my monthly income statements on my Natwest account. They just said " No good" No explanation or anything, so i showed them my BKK statement and all was well. My partner asked what the problem was and they answered " that they didn't know of nat west". Go figure

[NoshowJones]

Sounds like a confusion over the fact that the embassy letter mentioned a bank that the officer does not know.

Yup - That is a possibility, but unfortunately no one is saying - And really I or anyone else should not be expected to simply guess what the reason might be when faced with a difficult situation at immigration like this.

The embassy letter should only be confirming the amount - not the source.

I suggest you take it up with the embassy.

Immigration officers have absolute power over you - that is just the way it works.

Yes, that is Thailand, some will, some won't, some do, some don't. This applies to Immigration offices, Banks, Government offices etc etc etc. How they love the power they have over you.