Red shirts 'would fight any move to oust PM Yingluck'

[Toscano]

I think the anti government protesters will gradually run out of steam . The government and police have done the right thing , allowing entry to the

grounds of government house and police headquarters , because it has taken the brutal fight out of the confrontaion . Having achieved a technical victory , that in reality achieves nothing , what now , what else do the protesters want to overun . I think that after the Kings birthday things will quieten down ,maybe Suthep will continue to give black shirt Fascist style orations to the birds in the trees .

I do not think there is any chance of another coup . The 2006 military coup may have stopped the rioting , but in fact was a failure , a major error of

judgement that has created the political polarization of the country ever since and it isn't going to change now . Northerners now know that the Democratic choice of government rests with them by a substantial majority . A forced change to a selected " Peoples Council " government will not be accepted .

The army is not going to be able to dampen down the north , bearing in mind that a large proportion of the soldiers are northerners and perhaps even

redshirt supporters .

Corruption is endemic in Thailand , but is to be found in other countries , Italy , the USA . People become politicians for the rich pickings , graft ,

corruption , which in Thailand is the way of life , a means to an end . Pointing the finger at one man and blaming him for corruption is useless in

Thailand , because all the alternative choices will be the same to a greater or lesser extent .

The elite are very rich and Thailands exports profitable , because northerners and Isaan workers employed in the factories are paid a pittance , scarcely

enough to pay for city accommodation and properly feed themselves . Perhaps Thaksins crime is awakening northern people to realise they too count in

Thailand and further can choose the government .

[GinBoy2]

By what you said there's no solution, except everyone have to welcome back Thaksin on a red carpet and kiss his feet.

And I see this vision, is hardly to happen...

Maybe you can give us your idea

Have new elections. Respect the result. Abide by the constitution. Is that so hard?

Why not just respect the results of the last election...or all of those since 2001 in point of fact?

[bigdod]

I dont know why we TV'ers bother getting so uptight argueing about it all coz at the end of the day, they really couldn't give a sh*t what we think anyway. Most Thais are surprised we can even walk upright, let alone have opinions which may even be worthy of consideration. From my side, I think that anyone who shows even the slightest interest in being a politician should immediately be precluded from ever being one, and that goes for every country, not just here. Bunch of self serving bags of hot air if you ask me

[BigC]

POLITICS

Reds 'would fight any move to oust premier'

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

More than 1,000 red shirts in Buri Ram rally in support of the government yesterday. They also ripped up pieces of paper as a symbol of protest against the proposals made by the anti-government People

BANGKOK: -- The red shirts are ready to oppose any unconstitutional move to overthrow Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra by the military or other means, red-shirt co-leader and Pheu Thai Party-list MP Weng Tojirakarn said.

However, Weng noted that the armed forces appeared to still be on the side of the government as of late yesterday.

The red-shirt United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) was watching events closely, Weng said, adding the protesters' ability to enter Government House and the Metropolitan Police Bureau yesterday was possible thanks to a decision by the government to avoid loss of life and to allow the protesters a "symbolic victory".

Police allowed them to enter the compound by opening the gate.

Weng insisted that only the lawn of Government House was occupied and that soldiers were still guarding all buildings in the compound from the inside. "Deputy Premier Pracha [Prom-nog] told me we don't want to kill people. Some [red shirts] were saddened or feel discouraged because of the taking over [of the buildings], but we say we do not want to kill people like what happened during the Abhisit Vejjajiva government. The other side also has bullets."

But Weng warned the Army to weigh things carefully. "I believe red shirts won't accept [a coup]."

Red Sunday group leader Sombat Boon-ngamanong saw things differently. He praised the armed forces for its restraint in not staging a coup so far, and said having army medics assist injured protesters was a positive sign.

"I'm happy with the role of the military this time and would like to commend them," said Sombat, who added that moves yesterday offered a solution to all sides without bloodshed.

A mediated dialogue to bring about reforms acceptable to all was needed. He believed that the premier would either resign or dissolve the House soon, but cautioned that any attempt to install an appointed prime minister on an interim basis may be opposed by red shirts.

-- The Nation 2013-12-04

What do they mean they don't want to kill people have they forgotten their men in black friends already ??? With rpg's m79's and using children to fire home made dangerous firearms

What about the police opening fire in the university in ramhamheng where allot of southern students are who are armed with nothing but books ????

[newcomer71]

By what you said there's no solution, except everyone have to welcome back Thaksin on a red carpet and kiss his feet.

And I see this vision, is hardly to happen...

Maybe you can give us your idea

Have new elections. Respect the result. Abide by the constitution. Is that so hard?

Edit to explain my point:

For all it is decried, the current constitution was intended to prevent a government with a strong majority behind him to abuse his power and get away with stuff like extrajudicial killings, rewriting the constitution to give himself more power, give himself and his followers impunity for any crimes and abuses of power, and so on.

And amazingly enough, it does work, which is why the amnesty bill and the senate reform bill couldn't go through. Sure, some of the PTP's policies are appaling, and the rice pledging scheme is a huge, unsustainable loss, but we're a far cry from dictatorship. They did have a strong mandate from the Thai people to implement these.

For the part about new election and how democracy and this system work, I agree with you.

But as seen as that wouldn't keep Thailand at peace, it wouldn't work.

We had elections 2 years ago, and situation did not improve about Yingluck trying to bring back her beloved brother, plus she made plausible for some part of population Suthep's criminal (crime against democracy and constitution) ideas.

So, I guess new election wouldn't drive Thailand out of the mess in which we are. But again, it's just my opinion.

[BigC]

 

 

 

By what you said there's no solution, except everyone have to welcome back Thaksin on a red carpet and kiss his feet.

And I see this vision, is hardly to happen...

Maybe you can give us your idea

 

 

Have new elections. Respect the result. Abide by the constitution. Is that so hard?

 

Edit to explain my point:

For all it is decried, the current constitution was intended to prevent a government with a strong majority behind him to abuse his power and get away with stuff like extrajudicial killings, rewriting the constitution to give himself more power, give himself and his followers impunity for any crimes and abuses of power, and so on.

And amazingly enough, it does work, which is why the amnesty bill and the senate reform bill couldn't go through. Sure, some of the PTP's policies are appaling, and the rice pledging scheme is a huge, unsustainable loss, but we're a far cry from dictatorship. They did have a strong mandate from the Thai people to implement these.

 

 

For the part about new election and how democracy and this system work, I agree with you.

But as seen as that wouldn't keep Thailand at peace, it wouldn't work.

We had elections 2 years ago, and situation did not improve about Yingluck trying to bring back her beloved brother, plus she made plausible for some part of population Suthep's criminal (crime against democracy and constitution) ideas.

So, I guess new election wouldn't drive Thailand out of the mess in which we are. But again, it's just my opinion.

The only thing that would end this is if Taksin came back and faced his charges

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Zolt]

Why not just respect the results of the last election...or all of those since 2001 in point of fact?

Dude, you have a point but I'm trying to be balanced here

New elections would at least give a clear sign of what Thai people want right now, give the new government a fresh mandate, and likely send 90% of the proesters back home.

[newcomer71]

The only thing that would end this is if Taksin came back and faced his charges

Totally right, but we all know it will never happen.

[JRSoul]

Why not just respect the results of the last election...or all of those since 2001 in point of fact?

Do we consider the raw count, or do we take into account the adjudicator's decisions? For some reason, Thaksin and his parties have refused to obey electoral law. Even in the last election there were reasonable grounds to disband PTP (participation of a banned politician (Thaksin) and the putting forward of inappropriate candidates facing serious criminal charges).

These were ignored because of the fear of more political violence, but is having an armed militia reasonable grounds to flaunt the rules? Is political turmoil one of Thaksin's goals the better to foment major changes?

[belg]

whomever in power

they all want, MONEY

case closed

[Zolt]

For the part about new election and how democracy and this system work, I agree with you.

But as seen as that wouldn't keep Thailand at peace, it wouldn't work.

We had elections 2 years ago, and situation did not improve about Yingluck trying to bring back her beloved brother, plus she made plausible for some part of population Suthep's criminal (crime against democracy and constitution) ideas.

So, I guess new election wouldn't drive Thailand out of the mess in which we are. But again, it's just my opinion.

It would be a short term fix, restoring the government legitimacy and mandate. A long term fix has to be sought in the attitude of the politicians. Right now both sides exhibit a winner takes all attitude, and are unwilling to compromise when they are in a position of power, or to constructively engage the other parties when they are in the opposition. Democrats are as guilty of that as PT.

Any reform that diminishes the ability of the people to elect their representatives further than the 2007 constitution already did is doomed to be a failure.

[newcomer71]

For the part about new election and how democracy and this system work, I agree with you.

But as seen as that wouldn't keep Thailand at peace, it wouldn't work.

We had elections 2 years ago, and situation did not improve about Yingluck trying to bring back her beloved brother, plus she made plausible for some part of population Suthep's criminal (crime against democracy and constitution) ideas.

So, I guess new election wouldn't drive Thailand out of the mess in which we are. But again, it's just my opinion.

It would be a short term fix, restoring the government legitimacy and mandate. A long term fix has to be sought in the attitude of the politicians. Right now both sides exhibit a winner takes all attitude, and are unwilling to compromise when they are in a position of power, or to constructively engage the other parties when they are in the opposition. Democrats are as guilty of that as PT.

Any reform that diminishes the ability of the people to elect their representatives further than the 2007 constitution already did is doomed to be a failure.

At now what we can clearly see is both sides so hungry of power, take advantage of that big seat they want to win, and give some crumbs to the people to keep them quiet (look at the rice scheme, for example).

The only way to reform politics, democracy, eradicate corruption and erase actual political class (with some exception, ALL of them only are greedy power-mongers) is a neutral technical government. Separated from elites, and not sided.

But I agree with you, it's not something we will see in Thailand.

It's more plausible to wait and watch the next episode Thaksin vs. everyone else. -sigh-

[brit1984]

By what you said there's no solution, except everyone have to welcome back Thaksin on a red carpet and kiss his feet.

And I see this vision, is hardly to happen...

Maybe you can give us your idea

Have new elections. Respect the result. Abide by the constitution. Is that so hard?

Edit to explain my point:

For all it is decried, the current constitution was intended to prevent a government with a strong majority behind him to abuse his power and get away with stuff like extrajudicial killings, rewriting the constitution to give himself more power, give himself and his followers impunity for any crimes and abuses of power, and so on.

And amazingly enough, it does work, which is why the amnesty bill and the senate reform bill couldn't go through. Sure, some of the PTP's policies are appaling, and the rice pledging scheme is a huge, unsustainable loss, but we're a far cry from dictatorship. They did have a strong mandate from the Thai people to implement these.

For the part about new election and how democracy and this system work, I agree with you.

But as seen as that wouldn't keep Thailand at peace, it wouldn't work.

We had elections 2 years ago, and situation did not improve about Yingluck trying to bring back her beloved brother, plus she made plausible for some part of population Suthep's criminal (crime against democracy and constitution) ideas.

So, I guess new election wouldn't drive Thailand out of the mess in which we are. But again, it's just my opinion.

The only thing that would end this is if Taksin came back and faced his charges

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

yes good idea and all the other corrupt / criminal politicians too, and also the police

after justice has been served (by the totally uncorrupt thai judiciary), we will reach utopia

[thaiguzzi]

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

+1. Well said.

[Zolt]

The only way to reform politics, democracy, eradicate corruption and erase actual political class (with some exception, ALL of them only are greedy power-mongers) is a neutral technical government. Separated from elites, and not sided.

But I agree with you, it's not something we will see in Thailand.

It's more plausible to wait and watch the next episode Thaksin vs. everyone else. -sigh-

I do like this, since I'm kind of a technocrat myself, but ultimately it's just utopia. If you're in a position of power, you are a politician almost by definition, and power corrupts. There's no way around it.

Churchill's old quote "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." applies remarkably well to Thailand. Rule of the majority is not perfect, far from it, but it's always better than telling the majority to <deleted> off. And if the elected government is inept, maybe we just have to bear it and try to do better in the next elections. Thailand has many problems but to be honest none of them was really critical: the country was posting healthy growth, and even with the rice scheme it's still in better fiscal health than much of the developed world.

[jji23]

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

Absolutely nail on the head...fantastic post.

[Arkady]

Who ever comes into power, must also give a piece of the Thai pie to the working poor and farmers, they are part of the country also. The Democrats when they held the reins of power failed to share the pie, look at the results of them being so shortsighted.

Thaskin's was willing to share the pie, what ever you think of him he knew that to build up a lasting political movement by including the largest voting block in the nation (the working poor and farmers) had also needs that needed to be addressed.

Thaskin downfall was that he was to greedy while he was willing to share Thailand's money, he was not willing to share his money with his political base. A man that had more money then he could possibly spend, had the laws revised so he would not have to pay billions of baht of taxes on his sale of the satellite.

Which resulted in the corruption charge and prison sentence!

The Thai Democrats much like the U.S. Republican party failed to address the needs of all its citizens and only addressed the needs of the rich and its conservative power base, and in the end will pay the price of their failure to meet the needs of all its citizens.

Cheers

He didn't change laws to save tax on the sale of a satellite. He amended the Telecoms Act a to increase the foreign ownership limit to the maximum possible (49%) to accommodate the Singaporean govt buyer of Shin Corp which owned AIS, Shinawatra Satellite and ITV. He had previously reduced the limit to make life more difficult for DTAC's foreign partner, Telenor. The capital gains on the sale of Shin Corp were not liable to capital gains tax because there is an exemption for sales of listed shared through the market that has been in place for over 3 decades.

[CantSpell]

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

Finally somebody with a brain making a comment.

This is exactly it - but so many farang sheep follow the local sheep in falling for Suthep and his gang.

Suthep:

"we want real democracy"

" I won't run for PM"

"Here is the plan: we appoint a peoples council - by the way - I have already chosen them so you don't have to worry your little heads and I will be their secretary general to make sure they behave"

What a farce. And so many idiots falling for it.

Be serious please.

I agreed with the first three line of that post.. Before he went on ideological ranting...

Those first three line applies to both sides of the political divide.

The Shin and the man probably have more money that all the democrats put together..

Both sides only look at their own bank accounts and would not hesitate to trample all the low income if it could allow them to reach whatever objective they have...

Yingluck government and action of last 2 years = bad..

Suthep movement start = good for first 3 days... the rest of his ultimatums = bad.

[mojorison]

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

Finally somebody with a brain making a comment.

This is exactly it - but so many farang sheep follow the local sheep in falling for Suthep and his gang.

Suthep:

"we want real democracy"

" I won't run for PM"

"Here is the plan: we appoint a peoples council - by the way - I have already chosen them so you don't have to worry your little heads and I will be their secretary general to make sure they behave"

What a farce. And so many idiots falling for it.

Be serious please.

I agreed with the first three line of that post.. Before he went on ideological ranting...

Those first three line applies to both sides of the political divide.

The Shin and the man probably have more money that all the democrats put together..

Both sides only look at their own bank accounts and would not hesitate to trample all the low income if it could allow them to reach whatever objective they have...

Yingluck government and action of last 2 years = bad..

Suthep movement start = good for first 3 days... the rest of his ultimatums = bad.

You've blown your own argument there old stick. If you add up the wealth of the yellow shirts/PAD/Urban elite whatever you want to call them, I will guarantee they possess considerably more than the other rabble, bear in mind most importantly that they are probably in the range of 5-20% of the population, (look closely at the top 1% for the complete picture of inequality). Think about it. It's the classic 5% with 90% of the wealth scenario, but now the rabble have the tools to mobilise and seek a fairer deal. The term "divide" is misleading, the more appropriate word would be fringe. I agree, the elite's days are numbered, face it they've had a fair run the last 200 years. Thaksin is not relevant to the real issue.

[CantSpell]

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

Finally somebody with a brain making a comment.

This is exactly it - but so many farang sheep follow the local sheep in falling for Suthep and his gang.

Suthep:

"we want real democracy"

" I won't run for PM"

"Here is the plan: we appoint a peoples council - by the way - I have already chosen them so you don't have to worry your little heads and I will be their secretary general to make sure they behave"

What a farce. And so many idiots falling for it.

Be serious please.

I agreed with the first three line of that post.. Before he went on ideological ranting...

Those first three line applies to both sides of the political divide.

The Shin and the man probably have more money that all the democrats put together..

Both sides only look at their own bank accounts and would not hesitate to trample all the low income if it could allow them to reach whatever objective they have...

Yingluck government and action of last 2 years = bad..

Suthep movement start = good for first 3 days... the rest of his ultimatums = bad.

You've blown your own argument there old stick. If you add up the wealth of the yellow shirts/PAD/Urban elite whatever you want to call them, I will guarantee they possess considerably more than the other rabble, bear in mind most importantly that they are probably in the range of 5-20% of the population, (look closely at the top 1% for the complete picture of inequality). Think about it. It's the classic 5% with 90% of the wealth scenario, but now the rabble have the tools to mobilise and seek a fairer deal. The term "divide" is misleading, the more appropriate word would be fringe. I agree, the elite's days are numbered, face it they've had a fair run the last 200 years. Thaksin is not relevant to the real issue.

Apologies... Kind of thought that the mess this country has been in for the last 7-8 years was very relevant to Thaksin LOL

Did not see any yellow attend a conference in the USA about stock exchange in front of the 500 more powerful in the world..

[mojorison]

The "bigger picture" problems of Thai politics is not the 7 or 8 years of this government. It stretches back to pre WW2, and the 18 coups that have been triggered in this time, (about 80 years...) So these problems are not solely of Thaksin's doing (as you and many of your friends may wish), The worst thing now for the Yellows would be if Thaksin DID come back. He could be cut up in small pieces, put in a big hole, locked up for 1000 years... the problems would still remain, and the yellas would still not be able to legitimately and democratically govern. He is not the REASON for the problems...

[GinBoy2]

Why not just respect the results of the last election...or all of those since 2001 in point of fact?

Dude, you have a point but I'm trying to be balanced here

New elections would at least give a clear sign of what Thai people want right now, give the new government a fresh mandate, and likely send 90% of the proesters back home.

Trouble is it doesn't. In a 'real' democracy if your party doesn't win you're pissed off, but figure out how to win next time. Here in our adopted home, the established elite figure out if the masses elect the 'wrong' option it's OK to have a coup, be it the military or as in today's case their proxy Suthep. Their issue is that these damm poor people keep picking the wrong option.

Edited December 4, 2013 by GinBoy2

[wolfmanjack]

The Thai Democrats much like the U.S. Republican party failed to address the needs of all its citizens and only addressed the needs of the rich and its conservative power base, and in the end will pay the price of their failure to meet the needs of all its citizens.

Cheers

The Thai democrats did address the real needs of the people they just did not do a good job of letting people know they are the ones that did it.

[GinBoy2]

The Thai Democrats much like the U.S. Republican party failed to address the needs of all its citizens and only addressed the needs of the rich and its conservative power base, and in the end will pay the price of their failure to meet the needs of all its citizens.

Cheers

The Thai democrats did address the real needs of the people they just did not do a good job of letting people know they are the ones that did it.

Isn't that what the essence of what politics is, marketing a message? The fact that Abbihsit and cohorts failed to deliver that message (and I agree their policies were pretty people friendly) isn't because of Pheu Thai, but due to a huge failure on the part of the Democrats. Of course here in Thailand in the current environment any failure of the Democrats to achieve electoral success has to be due to the evil influence of Thaksin, from his 'lair' in Dubai. Where is Austin Powers when you need him!

[GeorgeO]

Had nothing taken place and things were left running at the same pace for another 2 or more years, Thailand would NOT have had any money left, it would have been bankrupt with all the family gone far away leaving everybody destitute.

Just look at the infrastructure, starting with the NEW airport, outdated 5 years after it was built along with a vast number of corrupt buying of materials used.

The road surfaces-----railways rundown scrap----buses dangerous------Water/flood management (admitted) mismanagement ------- rice scam-------rubber--------PM missing from action too much to manage affairs------bills rushed through without time for debate------- the list is endless---add PTT--Thai Airways--TAT----- and the rest.

All this managed by an elected government full of (QUALIFIED ) persons at the helm in all government departments.

Suppose this is why we have the problems. Please leave out the other parties when replying -they have played no part in this S##t.

Yes but I have spent the last few years launching attacks on PTP and Yingluck, based on their obvious mafioso build and their contempt of Parliamentary procedure. I would go further and question Thaksin's international loyalties and how those influence the erosionist and velvet-glove communist-autocratic template that is visible (and commented on ad nauseum) to trained observers of the PTP.

However. Parliamentary regulatory overhaul is a normal procedure, there is no stone monolith somewhere with ancient rules on how to maintain a functioning parliamentary system, and it varies from nation to nation according to temperament and history. For example Northern Europe have a certain style of parliament which reflects their historical and cultural mindset. That can not be cut-pasted onto Thailand which has a very different history.

I would give the analogy of Thai parliament being a broken down car, you might have to get out and push it sometimes, take it for repairs, while you plan a full re-build of the core problem mechanisms. This is a lengthy process, but what Suthep did was a much quicker solution - just torch the car by the side of the road, while staring into the flames with this dreamy look on his face. The car needed TLC, and repairs, by a qualified mechanic lol. Not torching.

Just from my own perspective I watched PTP now for years and I lost count of the numbers of times when simple parliamentary regulation would have stopped their schemes dead, and forced Yingluck to not only attend parliament but to stand up and take the cut-thrust of debate in an adult and democratic manner. That is how progress is made. My problem is that this current Suthep situation is a giant step backwards from what was already a flawed manifestation of democracy.

Yunla, although you make some very valid points, time and time again we have seen unbelievable policies being forced through purely on the basis of the majority vote, which PTP would clearly have had in every situation. This was the case with the Amnesty Bill, and when the oversight committee even went so far as to underhandedly change the contents of the bill before its second reading, that was the final straw.

What on earth can a party in opposition do when faced with such ruthless disregard for parliamentary procedure, the rule of law, and simple "right and wrong"? As I've seen in other posts, if Suthep had said "ahh, sod this" and walked away, they would have continued for another two years and then vanished. A quick look in the vaults would have revealed that the coffers were empty, and the entire PTP Cabinet would have been scattered throughout the globe enjoying the rewards of their four years in office.

To continue your analogy, there were obviously some 'mechanics' waiting on the sidelines to help to make the vehicle run better. An example is Apirak, who I believe is one of the few to have demonstrated moral fortitude throughout the whole political system here. After being accused of corruption, and laughing at the accusation, he clearly stated that his books were open for scrutiny, and that he had nothing to hide; nevertheless, given that he was under suspicion, he felt that it was his duty to step down from his post.

The case against him was ultimately dismissed as there was no evidence whatsoever of the claim against him. He could have done what the rest of them do, and sue his accuser, but he remains above the gutter! Mark my words, we have not seen the last of this particular gentlemen, and he may be just what is needed to form a new party, grounded in his own political integrity, which could become a major force here..!!

Anyway, back to the broken down car; as opposed to looking for a solution as to how the vehicle might have been made roadworthy again, the PTP just said "f*** it, we'll all just buy ourselves a new Mercedes"...!! And that, ladies and gentlemen, is where the flood money has gone...!!

[philw]

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

Absolutely nail on the head...fantastic post.

Correct.

Double like.

[philw]

Who ever comes into power, must also give a piece of the Thai pie to the working poor and farmers, they are part of the country also. The Democrats when they held the reins of power failed to share the pie, look at the results of them being so shortsighted.

Thaskin's was willing to share the pie, what ever you think of him he knew that to build up a lasting political movement by including the largest voting block in the nation (the working poor and farmers) had also needs that needed to be addressed.

Thaskin downfall was that he was to greedy while he was willing to share Thailand's money, he was not willing to share his money with his political base. A man that had more money then he could possibly spend, had the laws revised so he would not have to pay billions of baht of taxes on his sale of the satellite.

Which resulted in the corruption charge and prison sentence!

The Thai Democrats much like the U.S. Republican party failed to address the needs of all its citizens and only addressed the needs of the rich and its conservative power base, and in the end will pay the price of their failure to meet the needs of all its citizens.

Cheers

He didn't change laws to save tax on the sale of a satellite. He amended the Telecoms Act a to increase the foreign ownership limit to the maximum possible (49%) to accommodate the Singaporean govt buyer of Shin Corp which owned AIS, Shinawatra Satellite and ITV. He had previously reduced the limit to make life more difficult for DTAC's foreign partner, Telenor. The capital gains on the sale of Shin Corp were not liable to capital gains tax because there is an exemption for sales of listed shared through the market that has been in place for over 3 decades.

He didn't break the law, did he ?

[whybother]

Who ever comes into power, must also give a piece of the Thai pie to the working poor and farmers, they are part of the country also. The Democrats when they held the reins of power failed to share the pie, look at the results of them being so shortsighted.

Thaskin's was willing to share the pie, what ever you think of him he knew that to build up a lasting political movement by including the largest voting block in the nation (the working poor and farmers) had also needs that needed to be addressed.

Thaskin downfall was that he was to greedy while he was willing to share Thailand's money, he was not willing to share his money with his political base. A man that had more money then he could possibly spend, had the laws revised so he would not have to pay billions of baht of taxes on his sale of the satellite.

Which resulted in the corruption charge and prison sentence!

The Thai Democrats much like the U.S. Republican party failed to address the needs of all its citizens and only addressed the needs of the rich and its conservative power base, and in the end will pay the price of their failure to meet the needs of all its citizens.

Cheers

He didn't change laws to save tax on the sale of a satellite. He amended the Telecoms Act a to increase the foreign ownership limit to the maximum possible (49%) to accommodate the Singaporean govt buyer of Shin Corp which owned AIS, Shinawatra Satellite and ITV. He had previously reduced the limit to make life more difficult for DTAC's foreign partner, Telenor. The capital gains on the sale of Shin Corp were not liable to capital gains tax because there is an exemption for sales of listed shared through the market that has been in place for over 3 decades.

He didn't break the law, did he ?

No. He changed the law to make a fortune. It seems you think that is OK.

[whybother]

What we are witnessing is the death rattle of the conservatives that have ruled Thailand for the past 200 years.

The old families with close ties to the ancient power structure, with enormous wealth, with close family ties to the military who walk on the heads of ordinary Thais.

Who treat farmers and workers as mere chattels, who have raped the natural resources of the nation, who own just about everything.

They are responsible for the yellow shirts.

They know that if the workers and farmers become organised and elect their own leaders, instead of accepting these Democrat puppets, they lose everything.

They will use every dirty trick in the book including patriotism (the last refuge of the scoundrel) to cling on to power and keep the people ignorant.

That is why they have brought on the last coup, to get rid of the Thaksin and to install a puppet (Abhisit).

However, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, and the people have elected Yingluck.

No matter what anyone says about her brother, she was elected in an overwhelming victory and she is the leader.

Suthep is just a lackey for the old clique and he uses the Yellow shirts and patriotism as his weapons to try and force out a democratically elected government.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried the same tactics in the UK?

He would be arrested and locked away.

And so it will pass here too, the old clique trying hard to hang on, but they are on a losing game, the people have had enough of the old ways.

They want change and they want to have a say.

The issue of amnesty for Thaksin is a red herring, any excuse will do to keep the pot boiling, to get back into power.

If Thaksin died tomorrow there would be another excuse to try to force out Peu Thai.

They just don't want to live in a democracy where the law would apply to them equally.

The coup junta didn't install Abhisit as PM. They installed Surayud.

[philw]

Who ever comes into power, must also give a piece of the Thai pie to the working poor and farmers, they are part of the country also. The Democrats when they held the reins of power failed to share the pie, look at the results of them being so shortsighted.

Thaskin's was willing to share the pie, what ever you think of him he knew that to build up a lasting political movement by including the largest voting block in the nation (the working poor and farmers) had also needs that needed to be addressed.

Thaskin downfall was that he was to greedy while he was willing to share Thailand's money, he was not willing to share his money with his political base. A man that had more money then he could possibly spend, had the laws revised so he would not have to pay billions of baht of taxes on his sale of the satellite.

Which resulted in the corruption charge and prison sentence!

The Thai Democrats much like the U.S. Republican party failed to address the needs of all its citizens and only addressed the needs of the rich and its conservative power base, and in the end will pay the price of their failure to meet the needs of all its citizens.

Cheers

He didn't change laws to save tax on the sale of a satellite. He amended the Telecoms Act a to increase the foreign ownership limit to the maximum possible (49%) to accommodate the Singaporean govt buyer of Shin Corp which owned AIS, Shinawatra Satellite and ITV. He had previously reduced the limit to make life more difficult for DTAC's foreign partner, Telenor. The capital gains on the sale of Shin Corp were not liable to capital gains tax because there is an exemption for sales of listed shared through the market that has been in place for over 3 decades.

He didn't break the law, did he ?

No. He changed the law to make a fortune. It seems you think that is OK.

You "seem" wrong.