US, Chinese warships in near collision

[F430murci]

Truth is, China has run its economy into the ground on a scale that the US has never known through manipulation of its currency and artificially inflating GDP with loans that can never be repaid. Their banking reserves are beyond bunk. The pollution and class disparity is also problematic, but censored.

[NeverSure]

It is all about economics and China's desperate measures due to a failing economy.

Neversure mentioned tariffs, but those are not needed as the Yuan is dangerously close to appreciating. Chana's solution, land grab and impede trade perhaps.

Here is a decent article discussing dynamics of why China redrafted boundaries to include water routes.

-----

Why is this important? The world has prospered because of trade conducted freely over wide seas lanes and air routes. So Chinas claim to the South China Sea, if permitted to stand, will mark the end of the open architecture of the Post-War world.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2013/06/02/china-and-the-biggest-territory-grab-since-world-war-ii/

The Chinese must be crazy. They are the ones who have benefited most from open sea lanes and international commerce. If they really try to close off sea lanes in the S. China Sea to be used only by themselves, they will isolate themselves from trading partners. As the writer in your link correctly said:

"The ongoing seizure of pieces of the Philippines is an indirect challenge to America. Now, however, the issuance of the new (S China Sea) map means Beijing has taken on Washington directly. If there has been any consistent American foreign policy over the course of two centuries, it has been the defense of freedom of navigation."

If China wants to isolate itself from international trade, it has found a very good way. The US does in fact have a history of punishing countries with tariffs on their imports. For a long time Japanese motorcycles had a 25% tariff on them because they were perceived as dumping in unfair competition with US manufacturers, particularly Harley Davidson.

I still say that the way to speed up the demise of China is for the US to put a large tariff on all of their imports. I post this again:

China Is 175.6% Dependent on the U.S.

"The Chinese economy increased its dependence on the United States last year according to recently released trade figures from Beijing and Washington.

China’s overall trade surplus in 2011 was $155.1 billion, according to the Ministry of Commerce.

And how much of that surplus is related to America? Commerce Department figures show that, through the first 11 months of last year, China’s trade surplus against the United States was $272.3 billion. That’s up from $252.4 billion for the same period in 2010, a 7.9% increase."

LINK

Edited December 14, 2013 by NeverSure

[FNQ]

the communist chinese military is playing a very dangerous game with very shrewd opponent who took over the world. the chinese navy would not even make it close to u.s. waters because the have no supply infrastructure for long distance journeys, you need lots of support boats and experience , there navy is basically regional, read third rate at best. snowden do you real think he left on his own or is disinformation puppet. the chinese are playing a game that will bring them to war exactly what the u.s. wants, u.s. like big wars, they make big money.

Your last sentence is absurd. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been terrible for the US economy.

Sabre rattling of an economic kind . I agree that the yanks would suffer economicaly at the hands of another military action.

[Publicus]

Tariffs would destroy the RMB almost immediately, but I'd think the two sides would rather exchange a few shots than to play around with trade, commerce and the like. Crash a few ships or warplanes even.

Sure a few shots would scare markets wild, but only for a while.

Trade sanctions would bring down everything for everyone.

The dictators in Beijing don't have the brains to be anyone's partner and it's amazing the US and the CCP-PRC have got by this far without any sort of serious confrontation or crisis, but it will come and it will come soon.

Just leave the CCP to itself, same as the crashed former USSR and its CCCP.

The former Soviet Union lasted 74 years. The CCP-PRC won't get even that far.

We're talking anytime from the present day to 2016 or 2017 at the latest. That's been the consistent projection since the turn of the millennium.

Banks, governments, global corporations and the like are preparing "for the possibility."

For when the time hits.

[NeverSure]

I disagree that trade sanctions would hurt the US if they were in the form of tariffs rather than an embargo.

First, the US government would get a lot of pocket change which it could use. Next, manufacturing would flood back to the US because already it almost doesn't pay to outsource manufacturing to China and a lot of manufacturing is already returning to the US from China.

Allowing China to do so much manufacturing for other countries has allowed it to get too big for its britches. It's the one thing that could be taken without firing a shot. Lordy, it's fun to listen to Donald Trump rant about what a sucker the US has been sending so much money to China while exporting US jobs and technology. And China does steal technology. It has no respect for intellectual property rights. It copies anything it can, even if it does it poorly.

The US was stupid to get involved so deeply with China economically, and the sooner it starts breaking those ties, the better.

[Kimagure]

20th century China: "The Japanese claimed a lot of territory in the Pacific during the war, so they were terrible evil imperialists dogs!"

21st century China: "All of your Pacific Ocean is belong to us!"

[bangon04]

The Cowpens was there because its a part of the US "Rebalancing to the Pacific" which Asean countries requested Prez Obama to go ahead to execute.

Countries of the region regard the CCP-PRC as the neighbor from hell.

The communist dictators in Beijing are both menacing and militarily threatening numerous countries throughout the Indo-Pacific strategic region, to include India, which is building a massive air and naval base on the Andaman Islands to put its forces at the northern end of the vital Malacca Strait and close by to SE Asia.

The communist dictators in Beijing have wildly claimed almost all of the South China Sea as their sovereign territory. Under international law, however, the South China Sea and the East China Sea - given those names hundreds of years ago by Western mariners - are the high seas, international waters.

After declaring the Air Defense Identification Zone over the Japanese Tenanku Islands, which is rightfully being ignored, the dictators in Beijing sent their Russian bought one and only aircraft carrier into the South China Sea, where they have announced they will also establish an ADIZ.

The Philippines have filed their case with the International Tribunal of the UN International Law of the Sea, a case the dictators in Beijing are losing. With the moral authority of the UN behind the Phils along with the UN ILOS, we'll see how much the dictators in Beijing respect international law.

China has no reason to respect the Philippines, either economically or militarily. China knows that the UN is a toothless talking shop and has a veto on the security council anyway.

China is now testing the US to see whether it will keep any or some of its vacuous promises to defend various members of the south east Asian region. It is a silent war of attrition. Probably no wars will need to be fought, maybe a few small skirmishes, then endless pointless debating in the UN with China smugly smiling, and Russia voting with the Chinese.

China is now "too big to fail" and it will gradually colonise the region economically. Even internal political failure will not stop this in the short term, as there are enough Chinese capitalists to sustain it. The so called "democracies" of the region have their hands tied by the "rules". Maybe Vietnam will put up a fight like last time the Chinese overstepped the mark with them.

[NanLaew]

Did they see each other on the horizon and had to take evasive action?

So, just wonder what is considered a "near collision" between warships.

1 mile, 10 miles, 100 miles or even 1000 miles?

If I remember correctly what I read earlier, they were within about 500 yards of each other when the Cowpens took evasive action.

David

So the illustriously named Cowpens bottled out when playing chicken. I see.

[impulse]

The Cowpens was there because its a part of the US "Rebalancing to the Pacific" which Asean countries requested Prez Obama to go ahead to execute.

Countries of the region regard the CCP-PRC as the neighbor from hell.

The communist dictators in Beijing are both menacing and militarily threatening numerous countries throughout the Indo-Pacific strategic region, to include India, which is building a massive air and naval base on the Andaman Islands to put its forces at the northern end of the vital Malacca Strait and close by to SE Asia.

The communist dictators in Beijing have wildly claimed almost all of the South China Sea as their sovereign territory. Under international law, however, the South China Sea and the East China Sea - given those names hundreds of years ago by Western mariners - are the high seas, international waters.

After declaring the Air Defense Identification Zone over the Japanese Tenanku Islands, which is rightfully being ignored, the dictators in Beijing sent their Russian bought one and only aircraft carrier into the South China Sea, where they have announced they will also establish an ADIZ.

The Philippines have filed their case with the International Tribunal of the UN International Law of the Sea, a case the dictators in Beijing are losing. With the moral authority of the UN behind the Phils along with the UN ILOS, we'll see how much the dictators in Beijing respect international law.

China has no reason to respect the Philippines, either economically or militarily. China knows that the UN is a toothless talking shop and has a veto on the security council anyway.

China is now testing the US to see whether it will keep any or some of its vacuous promises to defend various members of the south east Asian region. It is a silent war of attrition. Probably no wars will need to be fought, maybe a few small skirmishes, then endless pointless debating in the UN with China smugly smiling, and Russia voting with the Chinese.

China is now "too big to fail" and it will gradually colonise the region economically. Even internal political failure will not stop this in the short term, as there are enough Chinese capitalists to sustain it. The so called "democracies" of the region have their hands tied by the "rules". Maybe Vietnam will put up a fight like last time the Chinese overstepped the mark with them.

No, this isn't about colonizing. The CCP needs to create an external enemy to take the domestic focus off the fact that they are running into a brick wall on the economic front, and corruption is continuing to loot the country dry.

But they're finding out that the easy targets like Japan, Taiwan, Korea and the Philippines are all backed by treaties with the USA, (and some of their methods are in direct conflict with freedom of passage in international waters).

Their entry into Africa is about colonizing.

Edited December 15, 2013 by impulse

[meechai]

Next, manufacturing would flood back to the US because already it almost doesn't pay to outsource manufacturing to China and a lot of manufacturing is already returning to the US from China.

Allowing China to do so much manufacturing for other countries has allowed it to get too big for its britches.

The US was stupid to get involved so deeply with China economically, and the sooner it starts breaking those ties, the better.

I am not so sure it was the solely the USA allowing China as much as the USA/EPA/IRS etc. chasing a lot of manufacturers off shore.

Once there either by choice or forced because their products manufacturing creates illegal ( in the US ) waste

it is not as a simple matter as moving back to the US.

If a corporation has invested millions or more in tooling, training,setting up supply lines etc to their

offshore plants then there are many things that would need addressing. Those expenses if not already cleared by previous

profits need to be taken back home

Then there are the wages & taxes to pay in the US

That is something I always did think was unfair to the US manufacturers that stayed

in the US. In that regard I do agree it is unfair in many ways to allow a US owned company to

manufacture offshore & then send products back to the US to compete with those of higher US based operating costs.

But free trade is a slippery slope that I am not sure about messing with.

I definitely think it should never be used as a weapon or threat

[VegasVic]

Tariffs would destroy the RMB almost immediately, but I'd think the two sides would rather exchange a few shots than to play around with trade, commerce and the like. Crash a few ships or warplanes even.

Sure a few shots would scare markets wild, but only for a while.

Trade sanctions would bring down everything for everyone.

The dictators in Beijing don't have the brains to be anyone's partner and it's amazing the US and the CCP-PRC have got by this far without any sort of serious confrontation or crisis, but it will come and it will come soon.

Just leave the CCP to itself, same as the crashed former USSR and its CCCP.

The former Soviet Union lasted 74 years. The CCP-PRC won't get even that far.

We're talking anytime from the present day to 2016 or 2017 at the latest. That's been the consistent projection since the turn of the millennium.

Banks, governments, global corporations and the like are preparing "for the possibility."

For when the time hits.

China has been tight rope walking on the edge of a razor for a while now, the question is not if a crash and uprising will happen but when it will happen Their banking system has the transparency of the dark side of the Moon, and all along they continue to build entire cities that have few or no inhabitants, just so they can keep the construction workers employed! Once young mister Lee leaves the farm for city life, it is going to be very difficult to send him back to the farm.

[Genericnic]

Did they see each other on the horizon and had to take evasive action?

So, just wonder what is considered a "near collision" between warships.

1 mile, 10 miles, 100 miles or even 1000 miles?

If I remember correctly what I read earlier, they were within about 500 yards of each other when the Cowpens took evasive action.

David

So the illustriously named Cowpens bottled out when playing chicken. I see.

Just because the Chinese were being stupid was no reason for the US to do the same.

David

[Credo]

Asians in general and Chinese in particular, simply can't drive. Beware on the roads and the high seas.

The tactic being used by the Chinese is a typical bullying type of tactic. The US ship would of course back off. An accident would say nothing. If the US wishes to blow them out of the water, that is what the US will do. Run into them? I don't think so.

[NeverSure]

Next, manufacturing would flood back to the US because already it almost doesn't pay to outsource manufacturing to China and a lot of manufacturing is already returning to the US from China.

Allowing China to do so much manufacturing for other countries has allowed it to get too big for its britches.

The US was stupid to get involved so deeply with China economically, and the sooner it starts breaking those ties, the better.

I am not so sure it was the solely the USA allowing China as much as the USA/EPA/IRS etc. chasing a lot of manufacturers off shore.

Once there either by choice or forced because their products manufacturing creates illegal ( in the US ) waste

it is not as a simple matter as moving back to the US.

If a corporation has invested millions or more in tooling, training,setting up supply lines etc to their

offshore plants then there are many things that would need addressing. Those expenses if not already cleared by previous

profits need to be taken back home

Then there are the wages & taxes to pay in the US

That is something I always did think was unfair to the US manufacturers that stayed

in the US. In that regard I do agree it is unfair in many ways to allow a US owned company to

manufacture offshore & then send products back to the US to compete with those of higher US based operating costs.

But free trade is a slippery slope that I am not sure about messing with.

I definitely think it should never be used as a weapon or threat

You make some good points. Just don't forget that the US is very efficient at manufacturing with a minimal workforce. There are robots that now paint all vehicles without human intervention. They do a much nicer job that a human could do, and they work for free and don't get benefits, retirement, sick pay, overtime, and they don't go on strike.

It's amazing to me, but American auto manufacturers can now build a vehicle in about 30 hours of labor! That includes assembling the engine and transmission, etc. The Jeep factory in Toledo Ohio can pump out a Jeep in just over 15 hour of labor! So much of the metal forging, casting, stamping, machining etc. is now computerized. Link

Many of the US manufacturers who "stayed" did so for their own good. "Made in the USA" still means something to many people as opposed to "Made in China." In fact Made in China means crap to most people I know. Let Walmart sell its trinkets and its Chinese air compressors. I still want American or British or Japanese or German quality and will pay for it.

Just watch more manufacturing return to the US even without tariffs. China is no longer a bargain, and the word China is certainly unpopular.

[Publicus]

Tariffs would destroy the RMB almost immediately, but I'd think the two sides would rather exchange a few shots than to play around with trade, commerce and the like. Crash a few ships or warplanes even.

Sure a few shots would scare markets wild, but only for a while.

Trade sanctions would bring down everything for everyone.

The dictators in Beijing don't have the brains to be anyone's partner and it's amazing the US and the CCP-PRC have got by this far without any sort of serious confrontation or crisis, but it will come and it will come soon.

Just leave the CCP to itself, same as the crashed former USSR and its CCCP.

The former Soviet Union lasted 74 years. The CCP-PRC won't get even that far.

We're talking anytime from the present day to 2016 or 2017 at the latest. That's been the consistent projection since the turn of the millennium.

Banks, governments, global corporations and the like are preparing "for the possibility."

For when the time hits.

China has been tight rope walking on the edge of a razor for a while now, the question is not if a crash and uprising will happen but when it will happen Their banking system has the transparency of the dark side of the Moon, and all along they continue to build entire cities that have few or no inhabitants, just so they can keep the construction workers employed! Once young mister Lee leaves the farm for city life, it is going to be very difficult to send him back to the farm.

Yes, the property bubble in Beijing alone is put at $22 trillion dollars. It's a common joke that to buy housing you have to start saving in the Tang Dynasty.

PRChinese I knew during the recent time I lived and worked there found via internet that in New York City it typically requires five years of saving to buy but in Beijing it takes 12 years to buy a lot less.

The state banking system provides the trough for the state corporations, the shadow banking system feeds the private enterprises. Neither is rational or solvent, way over their heads in debt bubbles.

The thousands of municipal governments are mired in the housing bubble debt and the banking debt, short on revenue, massively corrupt and account for debt equal to 40% of the already cooked GDP numbers.

The point however is that the CCP spends more on domestic security forces than on the military. The People's Armed Police don't exactly belong to the people. Fear of the CCP and its PAP keeps the mass of the population off the streets and precludes their directly confronting the CCP that outrages them so.

Still, the CCP admits to some 100,000 public demonstrations last year while the CIA says it's more like 180,000 to 200,000 public protests and demonstrations. The only thing keeping tens of millions of abused and exploited PRChinese off the streets and from seizing government buildings are the People's Armed Police and the awful knowledge and memory of Tianamen Square 1989.

The CCP dictators will slaughter 100,000,000 PRChinese people if it determines that's what is required to keep it in power. So a couple of warships clanking somewhere nearby is nothing when the dictators in Beijing are certain the United States will never pull the trigger.

[Publicus]

Next, manufacturing would flood back to the US because already it almost doesn't pay to outsource manufacturing to China and a lot of manufacturing is already returning to the US from China.

Allowing China to do so much manufacturing for other countries has allowed it to get too big for its britches.

The US was stupid to get involved so deeply with China economically, and the sooner it starts breaking those ties, the better.

I am not so sure it was the solely the USA allowing China as much as the USA/EPA/IRS etc. chasing a lot of manufacturers off shore.

Once there either by choice or forced because their products manufacturing creates illegal ( in the US ) waste

it is not as a simple matter as moving back to the US.

If a corporation has invested millions or more in tooling, training,setting up supply lines etc to their

offshore plants then there are many things that would need addressing. Those expenses if not already cleared by previous

profits need to be taken back home

Then there are the wages & taxes to pay in the US

That is something I always did think was unfair to the US manufacturers that stayed

in the US. In that regard I do agree it is unfair in many ways to allow a US owned company to

manufacture offshore & then send products back to the US to compete with those of higher US based operating costs.

But free trade is a slippery slope that I am not sure about messing with.

I definitely think it should never be used as a weapon or threat

You make some good points. Just don't forget that the US is very efficient at manufacturing with a minimal workforce. There are robots that now paint all vehicles without human intervention. They do a much nicer job that a human could do, and they work for free and don't get benefits, retirement, sick pay, overtime, and they don't go on strike.

It's amazing to me, but American auto manufacturers can now build a vehicle in about 30 hours of labor! That includes assembling the engine and transmission, etc. The Jeep factory in Toledo Ohio can pump out a Jeep in just over 15 hour of labor! So much of the metal forging, casting, stamping, machining etc. is now computerized. Link

Many of the US manufacturers who "stayed" did so for their own good. "Made in the USA" still means something to many people as opposed to "Made in China." In fact Made in China means crap to most people I know. Let Walmart sell its trinkets and its Chinese air compressors. I still want American or British or Japanese or German quality and will pay for it.

Just watch more manufacturing return to the US even without tariffs. China is no longer a bargain, and the word China is certainly unpopular.

Yes, which means that because of automation and cybernation we have to create a society that is constructive and productive in ways that are radically different from the traditional ways and work ethic for the mass of the working age population that don't have any jobs to go to.

[boomerangutang]

Let them let off some steam. Some shots fired. Better to let off some steam from the pressure cooker now, then wait years, when the pressure has built up to where it blasts the lid off the cooker.

The Chinese know they're 2nd rate militarily compared to the US. The US has had aircraft carriers for nearly 100 years before China had its first one, with an out-dated hull built in Ukraine . Chinese officialdom have legions of hackers on salary, with one goal: to try and steal as much tech data from westerners (particularly US) as possible - primarily weapons-related data.

[NeverSure]

Next, manufacturing would flood back to the US because already it almost doesn't pay to outsource manufacturing to China and a lot of manufacturing is already returning to the US from China.

Allowing China to do so much manufacturing for other countries has allowed it to get too big for its britches.

The US was stupid to get involved so deeply with China economically, and the sooner it starts breaking those ties, the better.

I am not so sure it was the solely the USA allowing China as much as the USA/EPA/IRS etc. chasing a lot of manufacturers off shore.

Once there either by choice or forced because their products manufacturing creates illegal ( in the US ) waste

it is not as a simple matter as moving back to the US.

If a corporation has invested millions or more in tooling, training,setting up supply lines etc to their

offshore plants then there are many things that would need addressing. Those expenses if not already cleared by previous

profits need to be taken back home

Then there are the wages & taxes to pay in the US

That is something I always did think was unfair to the US manufacturers that stayed

in the US. In that regard I do agree it is unfair in many ways to allow a US owned company to

manufacture offshore & then send products back to the US to compete with those of higher US based operating costs.

But free trade is a slippery slope that I am not sure about messing with.

I definitely think it should never be used as a weapon or threat

You make some good points. Just don't forget that the US is very efficient at manufacturing with a minimal workforce. There are robots that now paint all vehicles without human intervention. They do a much nicer job that a human could do, and they work for free and don't get benefits, retirement, sick pay, overtime, and they don't go on strike.

It's amazing to me, but American auto manufacturers can now build a vehicle in about 30 hours of labor! That includes assembling the engine and transmission, etc. The Jeep factory in Toledo Ohio can pump out a Jeep in just over 15 hour of labor! So much of the metal forging, casting, stamping, machining etc. is now computerized. Link

Many of the US manufacturers who "stayed" did so for their own good. "Made in the USA" still means something to many people as opposed to "Made in China." In fact Made in China means crap to most people I know. Let Walmart sell its trinkets and its Chinese air compressors. I still want American or British or Japanese or German quality and will pay for it.

Just watch more manufacturing return to the US even without tariffs. China is no longer a bargain, and the word China is certainly unpopular.

Yes, which means that because of automation and cybernation we have to create a society that is constructive and productive in ways that are radically different from the traditional ways and work ethic for the mass of the working age population that don't have any jobs to go to.

Wow. Let me make the rules for a day. Publicus, when I was a boy the main highway between the two towns here was absolutely filled, shoulder to shoulder with sawmills. On one side of the highway were the mills, and on the other side were the support businesses. Log truck dealers, repair shops, heavy equipment dealers, restaurants, chainsaw sales and service, truck tire dealers... endless.

Trees are a renewable resource. After logging, you can replant and harvest again in 40 years. Those private companies that own vast tracts of timber land do just that. They log 1/40th of their land every year and replant it, in a never ending cycle, just like raising corn. That leaves us with two sawmills that belong to big national companies that own such land.

But the environmentalists have taken most of the timber land - even private land - out of production under various excuses that don't hold water. I'm not talking about virgin wilderness that I would protect. I'm talking about land that has already been logged at least twice. The jobs are gone.

Shall we continue with oil on government land? Oil refineries? The US government has more oil in just one place along the Rocky Mountains than is to be found in all of the rest of the world combined. Talk about jobs and new wealth in the oil fields and hauling and refineries... All shut down and yet private land is being used to find enough oil to make the US the world's largest oil producer within a couple of years.

The US has abundant clean coal, and knows how to burn it cleanly unlike China which pollutes with abandon. That coal creates jobs in the mines, will fire electric plants, all of which create jobs for those people who don't have a PHD.

All of the jobs listed above leave plenty of room for the blue collar guy, and they all pay a living wage.

Shall we talk about fishing the 88,000 miles of saltwater shoreline that the US owns? How about drilling for the oil we know is there too? How about the oil and minerals in Alaska?

How about the rare earth minerals in the SW desert that are sealed off from production while we buy the same from China?

How about the closed up steel mills when the US has lots of raw materials and the coal to fire the mills? No, those are shut down so that China can do it for us creating massive pollution which is circling the entire globe.

The US doesn't have a job problem or a money problem.

It has a lack of will, and a bunch of Haaavaad PHD's who don't give a damn about the working man.

Cheers

[Scott]

This topic is about the US and Chinese warships. Please stay on topic. Further off-topic posts will be deleted.

[hawker9000]

Mai pen rai, the US ship was a long way from the United States.

If the Chinese missile cruiser would come near US waters even if they are in International waters, the US would send everything they have, I am sure the Chinese media would also say the same kind of propaganda that the Chinese ship worked very hard to avoid a collision.

Come on Snowden release some more news. Haven't heard for a long time by the US that the Chinese are hacking their systems.

You're thinking is SO muddled on this, and you have NO idea what you're jabbering about! COWPENS was in international, not Chinese territorial, waters although China is currently in the extremely belligerant position of claiming practically the entire South and East China Seas AS its territorial waters. WHEN a Chinese warship enters US territorial waters and a US warship nearly collides with it, we can talk about who was where they were supposed to be and who wasn't. In the meantime you obviously have NO idea what the US response would be to a Chinese ship "near" but not in US territorial waters. Probably nothing beyond satellite surveillance. The idea of some mass scramble is as ludicrous as it is pinheaded.

[Bpuumike]

the communist chinese military is playing a very dangerous game with very shrewd opponent who took over the world. the chinese navy would not even make it close to u.s. waters because the have no supply infrastructure for long distance journeys, you need lots of support boats and experience , there navy is basically regional, read third rate at best. snowden do you real think he left on his own or is disinformation puppet. the chinese are playing a game that will bring them to war exactly what the u.s. wants, u.s. like big wars, they make big money.

Your last sentence is absurd. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been terrible for the US economy.

It's ironic.

On one hand you are correct, a major fiscal drain.

On the other, they have been a major economic input, especially to the military and security industry.

[CPT]

Did they see each other on the horizon and had to take evasive action?

So, just wonder what is considered a "near collision" between warships.

1 mile, 10 miles, 100 miles or even 1000 miles?

Obviously they had their radars switched off to save electric.....

Seriously though, the Chinese are flexing their muscles, and the US will be very hard pressed to keep them in check in the region. The Chinese will soon run over a Philippines gunboat and even a Japanese Coastguard vessel to make a point.

And most countries are scared of them, both economically and militarily.

At the moment that really isn't true (the military part). China really isn't a bluewater naval power, they are more or less stuck close to their own shores which has made dominance of the South China Sea so important to them. The PLA Navy is hemmed in by US allies and naval bases in Japan, soon to return to the Philipines, our new best budy Vietnam, and other nations that dispute China's claims of sovereignty (all of which have close ties to the US and/or Japan). Breaking out of their territorial waters would really take something exceptional. It's also worth noting that China's new and only aircraft carrier is comparable to European carriers, about half the size of a US super carrier (of which there are 11).

China has a very large army and is well defended but they still lack the ability to project power and are unlikely to develop that capability for several decades. The only threat the PLA poses is to those countries with whom they share a land border. Running over boats of regional rivals doesn't make much of a point, it just escalates tensions and increases US influence in the region, something not in line with China's interests.

Edited to add: I wonder if China is trying to force Obama into a Kennedy/Khrushchev situation? I don't think there is any chance that Obama screws up such a showdown as much as Kennedy did nor do I believe congress would allow him to. I suppose the greatest danger is that China is NOT working contrary to their interests, that maintaining control at home during an economic downturn requires feeding their growing nationalism and forces them into a confrontation in the future that they can't back down from.

Edited December 15, 2013 by CPT

[JoeLing]

All the US has to do to crush China is to put a 30% tariff on anything imported into the US from China.

Already the US is figuring out how to manufacture things cheaper using technology. Add to that the cost of shipping raw materials to China and then shipping back finished product. Now add in the cost of sending Americans to China to set up and supervise the manufacturing plants so that there is American quality instead of Chinese junk. Already a lot of manufacturing is returning to the US from China.

Start with 3D printing. Now look at the computerized clothing manufacturing which will make, label, and package clothing without human intervention making cheap Chinese labor irrelevant too expensive.

Just do it. Apply that 30% tariff and manufacturing coming back to the US would change from garden hose to a huge river, and China's pockets would be turned inside out.

And once the Chinese close their laundrettes and washing parlours, we will all be smelly and starving

[NeverSure]

Mai pen rai, the US ship was a long way from the United States.

If the Chinese missile cruiser would come near US waters even if they are in International waters, the US would send everything they have, I am sure the Chinese media would also say the same kind of propaganda that the Chinese ship worked very hard to avoid a collision.

Come on Snowden release some more news. Haven't heard for a long time by the US that the Chinese are hacking their systems.

You're thinking is SO muddled on this, and you have NO idea what you're jabbering about! COWPENS was in international, not Chinese territorial, waters although China is currently in the extremely belligerant position of claiming practically the entire South and East China Seas AS its territorial waters. WHEN a Chinese warship enters US territorial waters and a US warship nearly collides with it, we can talk about who was where they were supposed to be and who wasn't. In the meantime you obviously have NO idea what the US response would be to a Chinese ship "near" but not in US territorial waters. Probably nothing beyond satellite surveillance. The idea of some mass scramble is as ludicrous as it is pinheaded.

There are Chinese ships in and out of US ports daily. They aren't military ships, but they could be Trojan Horses. It's amazing the amount of container ships that dock in US harbors daily.

The US isn't one bit afraid of China's navy or air force. It is just annoyed by the saber rattling in Asia.

[F430murci]

Mai pen rai, the US ship was a long way from the United States.

If the Chinese missile cruiser would come near US waters even if they are in International waters, the US would send everything they have, I am sure the Chinese media would also say the same kind of propaganda that the Chinese ship worked very hard to avoid a collision.

Come on Snowden release some more news. Haven't heard for a long time by the US that the Chinese are hacking their systems.

You're thinking is SO muddled on this, and you have NO idea what you're jabbering about! COWPENS was in international, not Chinese territorial, waters although China is currently in the extremely belligerant position of claiming practically the entire South and East China Seas AS its territorial waters. WHEN a Chinese warship enters US territorial waters and a US warship nearly collides with it, we can talk about who was where they were supposed to be and who wasn't. In the meantime you obviously have NO idea what the US response would be to a Chinese ship "near" but not in US territorial waters. Probably nothing beyond satellite surveillance. The idea of some mass scramble is as ludicrous as it is pinheaded.

There are Chinese ships in and out of US ports daily. They aren't military ships, but they could be Trojan Horses. It's amazing the amount of container ships that dock in US harbors daily.

The US isn't one bit afraid of China's navy or air force. It is just annoyed by the saber rattling in Asia.

The problem is they view Bama as weak or without sufficient backing or support to do anything. They are simply exploiting this . . . Really has a dangerous potential down the line. Walmart stands to suffer more than anyone if we cut China off as they sell most of that cheap crap no one with any money or sense would buy so cut China off, let their currency appreciate and let their economy sink. Their banks are bunk with horrible balance sheets. Besides China, does anyone really care about those crazy, whacky, silly Walmart shoppers.

[impulse]

The problem is they view Bama as weak or without sufficient backing or support to do anything. They are simply exploiting this . . .

Need to look back over your recent history. In a similar situation in 2001, W not only let the Chinese hold the 24 US servicemen (and women) for 10 days, the US then paid for their keep and issued a "sorry about that" letter to win their release.

Then they let the Chinese pore over the top secret equipment for a couple of months before sending a Russian Antonov to retrieve the pieces- AFTER paying the Chinese to dis-assemble the super secret plane.

I'm not an Obama fan, but his foreign relations have been a world of improvement over W. It will take 50 years to undo the damage his administration did- if ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

Edited December 16, 2013 by impulse

[Genericnic]

Mai pen rai, the US ship was a long way from the United States.

If the Chinese missile cruiser would come near US waters even if they are in International waters, the US would send everything they have, I am sure the Chinese media would also say the same kind of propaganda that the Chinese ship worked very hard to avoid a collision.

Come on Snowden release some more news. Haven't heard for a long time by the US that the Chinese are hacking their systems.

You're thinking is SO muddled on this, and you have NO idea what you're jabbering about! COWPENS was in international, not Chinese territorial, waters although China is currently in the extremely belligerant position of claiming practically the entire South and East China Seas AS its territorial waters. WHEN a Chinese warship enters US territorial waters and a US warship nearly collides with it, we can talk about who was where they were supposed to be and who wasn't. In the meantime you obviously have NO idea what the US response would be to a Chinese ship "near" but not in US territorial waters. Probably nothing beyond satellite surveillance. The idea of some mass scramble is as ludicrous as it is pinheaded.

There are Chinese ships in and out of US ports daily. They aren't military ships, but they could be Trojan Horses. It's amazing the amount of container ships that dock in US harbors daily.

The US isn't one bit afraid of China's navy or air force. It is just annoyed by the saber rattling in Asia.

The problem is they view Bama as weak or without sufficient backing or support to do anything. They are simply exploiting this . . . Really has a dangerous potential down the line.

This would be the same mistake the Japanese made in attacking Pearl Harbor. FDR was under attack by the isolationists who wanted to stay out of the war and by the conservatives that wanted to kill off the New Deal. The country was very divided internally and FDR looked weakened. The attack unified America overnight.

David

[ratcatcher]

Maybe of interest to some here.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/22070c2264b7

[hawker9000]

All the US has to do to crush China is to put a 30% tariff on anything imported into the US from China.

Already the US is figuring out how to manufacture things cheaper using technology. Add to that the cost of shipping raw materials to China and then shipping back finished product. Now add in the cost of sending Americans to China to set up and supervise the manufacturing plants so that there is American quality instead of Chinese junk. Already a lot of manufacturing is returning to the US from China.

Start with 3D printing. Now look at the computerized clothing manufacturing which will make, label, and package clothing without human intervention making cheap Chinese labor irrelevant too expensive.

Just do it. Apply that 30% tariff and manufacturing coming back to the US would change from garden hose to a huge river, and China's pockets would be turned inside out.

And once the Chinese close their laundrettes and washing parlours, we will all be smelly and starving

The Chinese hold about $1.3T of the US national debt (which is a bit less than one quarter of the total - it so happens Japan holds about $1.1T btw). I'm not sure whether they're still buying our debt or not, but I don't think either China OR the US wants, really, to upset the applecart... The 2 economies sort of need each other.

[F430murci]

All the US has to do to crush China is to put a 30% tariff on anything imported into the US from China.

Already the US is figuring out how to manufacture things cheaper using technology. Add to that the cost of shipping raw materials to China and then shipping back finished product. Now add in the cost of sending Americans to China to set up and supervise the manufacturing plants so that there is American quality instead of Chinese junk. Already a lot of manufacturing is returning to the US from China.

Start with 3D printing. Now look at the computerized clothing manufacturing which will make, label, and package clothing without human intervention making cheap Chinese labor irrelevant too expensive.

Just do it. Apply that 30% tariff and manufacturing coming back to the US would change from garden hose to a huge river, and China's pockets would be turned inside out.

And once the Chinese close their laundrettes and washing parlours, we will all be smelly and starving

The Chinese hold about $1.3T of the US national debt (which is a bit less than one quarter of the total - it so happens Japan holds about $1.1T btw). I'm not sure whether they're still buying our debt or not, but I don't think either China OR the US wants, really, to upset the applecart... The 2 economies sort of need each other.

Not needed. China gobbled up the majority of both it T bills and T notes after August 2008 after Bush signed $ 700 billion financial bailout bill and Bama followed with the $ 787 billion federal stimulus package in February 2009.

Fed is apparently pulling back on QEs of stimulus now as the CMO craters on most bank balance sheets have been filled and the recent 2 QEs has landed on foreign balance sheets to try and shore up reserves in foreign banks . . . Your welcome rest of world since your measures did little or nothing to shore up reserves in foreign banking after the 2008 recession.

QE served its purpose, the CMO default crisis is all but done, US banks and large companies are sitting on tons of cash and stimulus appears to have stopped stimulating economic growth here and abroad.

Stopping QEs should cause a bit if market correction and increase bond rates. Both are long term positives.

China is not needed as high bond rates and reduction of T bill and T note levels, weakness in Euro and instability in European bond or debt market means US will have no issue meeting its needs without China.

China, however, gobbled up bonds at a historic rate to keep currency from rapid appreciation due to its own internal economic issues that are still present and growing. China needs US or another country or countries to manipulate currency or it will lose is advantages in trade and end up in ever bigger trouble.

I say let China sink and force China to allow its currency to float freely on open market like everyone else's currency so they are on equal footing from a trade perspective.