Expat Experience and Confirmation Bias

[GuestHouse]

^ If I don't I've managed to fool a few people who are paid to challenge my views on that and other subjects.

[Dancealot]

/ quote Guesthouse:

But there is another problem - What happens when the information the expat sees is misunderstood before he inevitably applies his confirmation bias? This is not a pointless question where language and cultural barriers to understanding exist.

The problem then arises of Confirmation Bias on completely wrong information - One way or the other.

/endquote.

People choose to be happy with the information they have selected to fund their confirmation biases.

From this point onward they tend to block any alternative nuances because they think it is safe to stick with their choice.

[NeverSure]

If Guest House is this profound at half past five in the afternoon how deep will he get by the early hours of the morning?

Depends on how much more he drinks between now and then.

[krisb]

^ If I don't I've managed to fool a few people who are paid to challenge my views on that and other subjects.

[tingtongtingtong]

Interesting.

Also check out 'reality tunnels' - we all project our reality tunnel and view the world through it. Everyone sees the world differently and can't see that other people have different reality tunnels and argue against them, or even kill them lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns937EYdgSE

[MJP]

I make Guesthouse right on all this, but not just to do with being a part time expat in Thailand.

I've realised of late how my own confirmation bias was developing with age and turning me into a grumpy old man before my time. So I've decided to change tack and be far more open minded and accepting, although with all that the wallet is firmly closed. I find it much easier to accept whatever so long as it isn't costing me anything or with regard to occupation, isn't working me to death.

Perhaps most of us think too much. Read this as 'I no longer give &%*£!!!'

Edited December 21, 2013 by MJP

[Dancealot]

Interesting.

Also check out 'reality tunnels' - we all project our reality tunnel and view the world through it. Everyone sees the world differently and can't see that other people have different reality tunnels and argue against them, or even kill them lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns937EYdgSE

Interesting concept, TTT.

I quoted this from your VDO.

"It gets tiresome to say: this leave, that leave, we leave. So we say leafs... Then some wiseguy comes along and says leaves really excist, but doesn't realise we created them."

Edited December 21, 2013 by Dancealot

[KittenKong]

Not so, I just think faster.

And apparently people with diarrhoea crap faster.

When it comes to ideas speed and quantity are of no importance. Content is.

[krisb]

Good post OP. You make a good observation and I was also not aware about the Thai cultural practice of attributing the wreath name to the persons who donated it.

However, you have done some confirmation bias yourself.

Using your example of the 'farang of Ubon' post. I was one of those people who liked that post, but not for the reasons you have given , which were: "The OP, and others, eagerly accepted this misunderstood piece of information because they believed it supported their point of view. "

I take each post on its merits, giving a like for a post that hits a nerve for me at that particular moment of time. For that particular post, my Like had zero to do with my point of view regarding the word farang. For the other 18 people who liked it? I have no idea. Maybe they all had differing reasons?

Confirmation bias, easy to do.

Confirmation bias, easy to do.

Exactly BM. It can analyzed which ever way you want, end of the day, it's just human nature and it comes naturally for a reason.

[krisb]

Not so, I just think faster.

And apparently people with diarrhoea crap faster.

When it comes to ideas speed and quantity are of no importance. Content is.

Well show us what ya got?

[tingtongtingtong]

Also check out general semantics by Korzybski. "The map is not the territory." We take from the infinite parabola what we can and make a language constructed from this and (if we are foolish) then argue our point.

http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20121029141916-16553-language-is-a-map

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_differential

http://www.mymotivational-nlp.com/nlp-presuppositions/11-the-map-is-not-the-territory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMdmyisIFNo

We can get over this problem by using E-prime or by simply using the word 'maybe' more. The world would be a more saner place.

I find the Thai culture is good at using the word 'maybe'.

Or by just acepting the dynamic of life or over peoples views as just that other peoples views:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfKOnj0gPCw&list=PLyoYNDv4FZV-doXhAr2jlP8s6NhZhpnMm

I find optimism a good 'reality tunnel':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLY9VUKpRM

Edited December 21, 2013 by tingtongtingtong

[tingtongtingtong]

I make Guesthouse right on all this, but not just to do with being a part time expat in Thailand.

I've realised of late how my own confirmation bias was developing with age and turning me into a grumpy old man before my time. So I've decided to change tack and be far more open minded and accepting, although with all that the wallet is firmly closed. I find it much easier to accept whatever so long as it isn't costing me anything or with regard to occupation, isn't working me to death.

Perhaps most of us think too much. Read this as 'I no longer give &%*£!!!'

Don't be a grumpy old man

“One great thing about growing old is that nothing is going to lead to anything. Everything is of the moment.”

― Joseph Campbell, A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living

[MJP]

I make Guesthouse right on all this, but not just to do with being a part time expat in Thailand.

I've realised of late how my own confirmation bias was developing with age and turning me into a grumpy old man before my time. So I've decided to change tack and be far more open minded and accepting, although with all that the wallet is firmly closed. I find it much easier to accept whatever so long as it isn't costing me anything or with regard to occupation, isn't working me to death.

Perhaps most of us think too much. Read this as 'I no longer give &%*£!!!'

Don't be a grumpy old man

“One great thing about growing old is that nothing is going to lead to anything. Everything is of the moment.”

― Joseph Campbell, A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living

I quite agree, I'm not that old, late thirties. But having had 13 years of this place you certainly learn the reality of the human condition and you must guard against it.

Here's what an old friend who's lived and worked here for 25 years had to say about living here.

"In this country you have to live in virtual isolation just to keep your sanity. I don't

mean by yourself, I just mean keep yourself to yourself. If you don't they will just

eat away at you. Its a dodgy place."

Edited December 21, 2013 by MJP

[Dancealot]

I make Guesthouse right on all this, but not just to do with being a part time expat in Thailand.

I've realised of late how my own confirmation bias was developing with age and turning me into a grumpy old man before my time. So I've decided to change tack and be far more open minded and accepting, although with all that the wallet is firmly closed. I find it much easier to accept whatever so long as it isn't costing me anything or with regard to occupation, isn't working me to death.

Perhaps most of us think too much. Read this as 'I no longer give &%*£!!!'

Don't be a grumpy old man

“One great thing about growing old is that nothing is going to lead to anything. Everything is of the moment.”

― Joseph Campbell, A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living

I quite agree, am not that old, late thirties. But having had 13 years of this place you certainly learn the reality of the human condition and you must guard against it.

Here's what an old friend who's lived and worked here for 25 years had to say about living here.

"In this country you have to live in virtual isolation just to keep your sanity. I don't

mean by yourself, I just mean keep yourself to yourself. If you don't they will just

eat away at you. Its a dodgy place."

After having read your discussion, I am thinking of balancing time spent between living in the west and Thailand.

Keeping your sanity is imperative, so, take the best of both worlds.

[paz]

Not so, I just think faster.

And apparently people with diarrhoea crap faster.

When it comes to ideas speed and quantity are of no importance. Content is.

Of which you brought none excpet vulgarity, and slowly.

Edited December 21, 2013 by paz

[MJP]

I make Guesthouse right on all this, but not just to do with being a part time expat in Thailand.

I've realised of late how my own confirmation bias was developing with age and turning me into a grumpy old man before my time. So I've decided to change tack and be far more open minded and accepting, although with all that the wallet is firmly closed. I find it much easier to accept whatever so long as it isn't costing me anything or with regard to occupation, isn't working me to death.

Perhaps most of us think too much. Read this as 'I no longer give &%*£!!!'

Don't be a grumpy old man

“One great thing about growing old is that nothing is going to lead to anything. Everything is of the moment.”

― Joseph Campbell, A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living

I quite agree, am not that old, late thirties. But having had 13 years of this place you certainly learn the reality of the human condition and you must guard against it.

Here's what an old friend who's lived and worked here for 25 years had to say about living here.

"In this country you have to live in virtual isolation just to keep your sanity. I don't

mean by yourself, I just mean keep yourself to yourself. If you don't they will just

eat away at you. Its a dodgy place."

After having read your discussion, I am thinking of balancing time spent between living in the west and Thailand.

Keeping your sanity is imperative, so, take the best of both worlds.

This is right, but there's a lot more to the World than this Thailand place. I'm a firm believer in interesting travel and a damn good camera. Stick with that DAL.

[HeavyDrinker]

Still interested to hear what you believe my 'Agenda' might be?

Oh Goody! a Quiz!

I'll have a pop at this one if I may....

I'd guess you're trying to say how much better you think you've adapted to life here than some of the buffoons here?

Do I win the 500B first prize?

[KittenKong]

Well show us what ya got?

About the subject of this thread? Not my cup of tea at all, sorry.

The notion that a quick comment is in some way superior to a sensible one was what caught my attention.

[alphaboy123]

Guesthouse:

Your point being? ... to argue against 'confirmation bias' (CB)? or for it?

to warn us? perhaps merely to get off your chest something you wanted

to make a point of?

You certainly do not offer anything in the way of a 'cure'. What's more, you

show yourself as suffering from the very disease you took great pains to

point out in us.

Seems you did not take the trouble of digging deep into the subject before

posting.

You open up by stating the ubiquitousness of CB, yet not long down the line,

you indicate that 'most of us are a little more balanced', which means the exact

opposite, namely, that CB is a quirk of the minority.

Which is really the case then?

No matter.

There is no denying the joy of finding like-minded posters.

At other times we make little discoveries through the posts we read; we even

stand corrected now and then. And all of this is actually quite fun.

And i find that CB is a non-issue when topics are approached light-heartedly,

when i perused them as the outsider who is aware of his own ignorance.

That said, if a person happens to support a given poster's views, can you

always tell whether he does so out of purely instinctive CB or by means of

reasoning (whatever his CB, if any)?

There's a humungous difference there.

After all, when one has given a certain problem earnest consideration, to the

point of conviction, then one is bound to defend that post, not instinctively

but by means of reason.

Consequently, like all instinctive behaviour, CB per se is of limited or no value

at all, whereas rational like-mindedness is agreeable, commendable and

desirable.

[tingtongtingtong]

Guesthouse:

Your point being? ... to argue against 'confirmation bias' (CB)? or for it?

to warn us? perhaps merely to get off your chest something you wanted

to make a point of?

You certainly do not offer anything in the way of a 'cure'. What's more, you

show yourself as suffering from the very disease you took great pains to

point out in us.

Seems you did not take the trouble of digging deep into the subject before

posting.

You open up by stating the ubiquitousness of CB, yet not long down the line,

you indicate that 'most of us are a little more balanced', which means the exact

opposite, namely, that CB is a quirk of the minority.

Which is really the case then?

No matter.

There is no denying the joy of finding like-minded posters.

At other times we make little discoveries through the posts we read; we even

stand corrected now and then. And all of this is actually quite fun.

And i find that CB is a non-issue when topics are approached light-heartedly,

when i perused them as the outsider who is aware of his own ignorance.

That said, if a person happens to support a given poster's views, can you

always tell whether he does so out of purely instinctive CB or by means of

reasoning (whatever his CB, if any)?

There's a humungous difference there.

After all, when one has given a certain problem earnest consideration, to the

point of conviction, then one is bound to defend that post, not instinctively

but by means of reason.

Consequently, like all instinctive behaviour, CB per se is of limited or no value

at all, whereas rational like-mindedness is agreeable, commendable and

desirable.

I don't think there is a 'point' here which is the whole 'point' of the post. I think he is just shedding light on some metacognition which is definitely interesting and a little deeper than a lot of things on TV. Hats off to the OP, for not being a typical shallow poster arguing the same points and is at least attempting to look at a bigger picture.

Edited December 21, 2013 by tingtongtingtong

[dighambara]

Not so, I just think faster.

ROTFLMAO

Not because I disagree, but because I agree wholeheartedly.

However, confirmation bias is something an individual must keep watch over and slap himself a few times a day, or he is just reconfirming his own bias.

Edited December 23, 2013 by dighambara

[GuestHouse]

Guesthouse:

Your point being? ... to argue against 'confirmation bias' (CB)? or for it?

to warn us? perhaps merely to get off your chest something you wanted

to make a point of?

You certainly do not offer anything in the way of a 'cure'. What's more, you

show yourself as suffering from the very disease you took great pains to

point out in us.

Seems you did not take the trouble of digging deep into the subject before

posting.

You open up by stating the ubiquitousness of CB, yet not long down the line,

you indicate that 'most of us are a little more balanced', which means the exact

opposite, namely, that CB is a quirk of the minority.

Which is really the case then?

No matter.

There is no denying the joy of finding like-minded posters.

At other times we make little discoveries through the posts we read; we even

stand corrected now and then. And all of this is actually quite fun.

And i find that CB is a non-issue when topics are approached light-heartedly,

when i perused them as the outsider who is aware of his own ignorance.

That said, if a person happens to support a given poster's views, can you

always tell whether he does so out of purely instinctive CB or by means of

reasoning (whatever his CB, if any)?

There's a humungous difference there.

After all, when one has given a certain problem earnest consideration, to the

point of conviction, then one is bound to defend that post, not instinctively

but by means of reason.

Consequently, like all instinctive behaviour, CB per se is of limited or no value

at all, whereas rational like-mindedness is agreeable, commendable and

desirable.

AB123,

I never claim not to be subject to CB myself, in fact I explicitly state that I am. Moreover I do not claim CB is something we can be cured of, I clearly state we should be aware of it and how interferes with our opinions of our daily experiences.

Pointing out that some people are outliers (in the black and white territory, while most of us hover around the middle) has nothing to do with CB other than to make the point that while most of us vary around the middle, or CB depending upon a whole range of issues causing us to move left and right of the middle, but always in the grey areas where we understand and accept the views of others. A small minority of people live their lives in the black and white zone of opinion - not simply biased to one side or the other - totally flipped to one side unable to accept anything which challenges their opinion.

These people, on both sides of the spectrum, don't simple read a view that disagrees with their own as an opinion that someone else is expressing but which they don't agree with - They hate the opposing point of view. They hate it being expressed and they hate people who express these views.

This can be seen in religion, politics and in the extreme views on both sides of 'life in Thailand'.

What they all miss is how very very similar they are to the people on the other extreme.

Those who come to TVF expressing constantly derogatory remarks against Thai people and life in Thailand are no different than those who come expressing purely positive views. They hate each other's point of view and respond predictably when opposing views are expressed.

Those of us in the middle, the grey area, know from our own experience and common sense that nothing is black and white, there are good things about life in Thailand there are bad things about life in Thailand - we live our lives balancing the good and the bad.

We are most of us able to accept opinions that go against our own point of view - we are most of us able to understand and accept a member posting in wonderment about something amazingly good that happened to him just as we are most of us able to accept a member posting about a terrible experience they have had.

Its when posters profess that life in Thailand is all bad or life in Thailand is only good that the problems start - because its the people holding these black and white views who are constantly stalking this forum ready to pounce and lambast anyone who expresses an opinion they disagree with.

They hate those opposing views - and they do all they can to stamp out opinions they don't like.

There CB doesn't cause them to simple accept or deny another point of view, it flips them into overdrive.

Look at the rants on this forum, look at simple threads posted by long time members who we know are not rabidly one side or another, they have a good day or a bad day, post their experience and they are lambasted from one side or the other.

It is the small minority in the black and white zone of opinion who ruin almost all the debate that goes on here on TVF.

I simply say, we all need to understand that we all are subject to CB - all of us.

Non of us have a perfectly good or a perfectly bad life experience of life in Thailand or anywhere else.

Beware those that claim they do. It is they that ruin almost all the debate and expression of opinion on this forum.

[Dancealot]

It is very interesting to see you behave so objectively, Guesthouse.

It's rather admirable.

[benalibina]

Guesthouse:

Your point being? ... to argue against 'confirmation bias' (CB)? or for it?

to warn us? perhaps merely to get off your chest something you wanted

to make a point of?

You certainly do not offer anything in the way of a 'cure'. What's more, you

show yourself as suffering from the very disease you took great pains to

point out in us.

Seems you did not take the trouble of digging deep into the subject before

posting.

You open up by stating the ubiquitousness of CB, yet not long down the line,

you indicate that 'most of us are a little more balanced', which means the exact

opposite, namely, that CB is a quirk of the minority.

Which is really the case then?

No matter.

There is no denying the joy of finding like-minded posters.

At other times we make little discoveries through the posts we read; we even

stand corrected now and then. And all of this is actually quite fun.

And i find that CB is a non-issue when topics are approached light-heartedly,

when i perused them as the outsider who is aware of his own ignorance.

That said, if a person happens to support a given poster's views, can you

always tell whether he does so out of purely instinctive CB or by means of

reasoning (whatever his CB, if any)?

There's a humungous difference there.

After all, when one has given a certain problem earnest consideration, to the

point of conviction, then one is bound to defend that post, not instinctively

but by means of reason.

Consequently, like all instinctive behaviour, CB per se is of limited or no value

at all, whereas rational like-mindedness is agreeable, commendable and

desirable.

AB123,

I never claim not to be subject to CB myself, in fact I explicitly state that I am. Moreover I do not claim CB is something we can be cured of, I clearly state we should be aware of it and how interferes with our opinions of our daily experiences.

Pointing out that some people are outliers (in the black and white territory, while most of us hover around the middle) has nothing to do with CB other than to make the point that while most of us vary around the middle, or CB depending upon a whole range of issues causing us to move left and right of the middle, but always in the grey areas where we understand and accept the views of others. A small minority of people live their lives in the black and white zone of opinion - not simply biased to one side or the other - totally flipped to one side unable to accept anything which challenges their opinion.

These people, on both sides of the spectrum, don't simple read a view that disagrees with their own as an opinion that someone else is expressing but which they don't agree with - They hate the opposing point of view. They hate it being expressed and they hate people who express these views.

This can be seen in religion, politics and in the extreme views on both sides of 'life in Thailand'.

What they all miss is how very very similar they are to the people on the other extreme.

Those who come to TVF expressing constantly derogatory remarks against Thai people and life in Thailand are no different than those who come expressing purely positive views. They hate each other's point of view and respond predictably when opposing views are expressed.

Those of us in the middle, the grey area, know from our own experience and common sense that nothing is black and white, there are good things about life in Thailand there are bad things about life in Thailand - we live our lives balancing the good and the bad.

We are most of us able to accept opinions that go against our own point of view - we are most of us able to understand and accept a member posting in wonderment about something amazingly good that happened to him just as we are most of us able to accept a member posting about a terrible experience they have had.

Its when posters profess that life in Thailand is all bad or life in Thailand is only good that the problems start - because its the people holding these black and white views who are constantly stalking this forum ready to pounce and lambast anyone who expresses an opinion they disagree with.

They hate those opposing views - and they do all they can to stamp out opinions they don't like.

There CB doesn't cause them to simple accept or deny another point of view, it flips them into overdrive.

Look at the rants on this forum, look at simple threads posted by long time members who we know are not rabidly one side or another, they have a good day or a bad day, post their experience and they are lambasted from one side or the other.

It is the small minority in the black and white zone of opinion who ruin almost all the debate that goes on here on TVF.

I simply say, we all need to understand that we all are subject to CB - all of us.

Non of us have a perfectly good or a perfectly bad life experience of life in Thailand or anywhere else.

Beware those that claim they do. It is they that ruin almost all the debate and expression of opinion on this forum.

Although admirable....introspection, empathy, selfreflection, intelligence/willingness to think and openmindedness is hot a gimme for many....shades of grey....