Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[notmyself]

But, but... that's why they call it "faith".

Faith in the real world is believing that the Sun will rise in the morning because we have reason to believe it will do so. Faith in the real world is believing that your wife loves you because you have reason to believe so. Religious faith is believing in something because you have no reason to do so, it's credulity and nothing short of it. One cannot say that I believe something on faith but know it to be true. If one knows it to be true then one cannot by definition believe it on faith.

What a strange concept.

Indeed.

[GentlemanJim]

Please close this thread, as its going to turn in to a group of hateful religious comments.

People have the right to practice any religion they choose. Respect it

They also have the right to practice non-religion. Respect it.

Admiring somebody is not faith. Faith is blind belief in supernatural.

Sent from my C6802 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Or otherwise. Personally, I have blind faith in all this electron stuff. I've never seen one, but blokes tell me they have, and the light bulbs light up, the sun rises, and the little birds cheep. If I'd gone to a good madrassa, no doubt I could have related all those things to God.

I have complete faith that things unless otherwise supported will fall downwards. Many people believed that before Newton, and not many more, after him.

Anyway, believe what you want.

Quote whom you want, though your own views may be more convincing.

But if you want to avoid conflict, I suggest that you avoid rubbishing the views of others

SC

you say "I suggest that you avoid rubbishing the views of others" but that is eaxactly what you are doing isn't it?

I am a 6 I guess, though I reckon there are some pretty smart beings out there, a lot smarter in every respect than us.

[greytown]

Take therefore no thought for the morrow

This passage refers to God providing for those who have (true) faith, therefore they need not worry.

Are the millions of faithful who starve to death in Africa not 'true' Christians? Are they not true believers?

Apparently not. True faith is a rare thing. I would reckon very few church goers actually have true faith. Certainly hypocrite Christians abound.

[anon8]

This movie made me feel the presence of God. It really answered some great questions about Gods love for us.

http://youtu.be/r4bj2nuUVbY

A good movie may indicate a presence of good director, script, and actors.

What has god to do with a good movie?

[anon8]

To be fair, the same thing could be said about the air that we breath and gravity but the difference is, we have other ways to test it is true other than by visual means. Any man on the street can put a bag over his/her head to test air or throw themselves out of a window to test gravity. Gravity often comes up because it too, like evolution, is only a theory.

Dude, are you gonna post anything of substance in this thread at all, or keep up with mumbo jumbo, post after post?

Now you claim gravity is only a theory!

Gravity is little bit more than a theory, dont you think? Well, you just said you dont.

Have you ever observed an object fall down? How can I make this simpler for you..?

Stuffs falls down not because of a theory, but because of gravity.

How is it possible that you do not realize that what you are saying is nonsensical, dumb crap?

[anon8]

May God will touch the hearts of those who don't believe.

No thanks! I would not want to be touched by god, and people wear funny clothes, representing god.

I reacall some criminal prosecutions, few years ago, many in Ireland, after some touching took place.

[anon8]

Which god? You could be referring to one of many! If yahweh from the boible then I'd rather he didn't touch any part of me as that chap is a genocidal, egotistical, cruel, evil monster!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If ever a god is going to touch me, I hope it will be Afrodite.

Good choice! I'm thorn between Apollo and Hermes.

[anon8]

I don't like to select a number because I think Dawkins himself is a fraud. Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

LOL

[anon8]

Seeing is believing, but no one would believe you. . . I feel sorry for those that have not seen the light

The same would be true of alien abduction.

Yes, of course that would be true however, it has an opposite connotation of doubtful desirability

I haven't heard it is quite so pleasant

Truth is not based on desirability. To wish theism to be true is to wish to be a slave but it is not that which makes it untrue.

What?

[notmyself]

To be fair, the same thing could be said about the air that we breath and gravity but the difference is, we have other ways to test it is true other than by visual means. Any man on the street can put a bag over his/her head to test air or throw themselves out of a window to test gravity. Gravity often comes up because it too, like evolution, is only a theory.

Dude, are you gonna post anything of substance in this thread at all, or keep up with mumbo jumbo, post after post?

Now you claim gravity is only a theory!

Gravity is little bit more than a theory, dont you think? Well, you just said you dont.

Have you ever observed an object fall down? How can I make this simpler for you..?

Stuffs falls down not because of a theory, but because of gravity.

How is it possible that you do not realize that what you are saying is nonsensical, dumb crap?

Actually, we should be talking about both. To understand why, we need to understand the scientific meaning of the words "law" and "theory."

[..]

So when we are scientifically discussing gravity, we can talk about the law that describes the attraction between two objects, and we can also talk about the theory that describes why the objects attract each other.

From yesterday.....

Triple Star System May Put Einstein's Theory Of Gravity To The Test

In a cosmic coup, astronomers have found a celestial beacon known as a pulsar in orbit with not one, but two other stars. The first-of-its-kind trio could soon be used to put Einstein's theory of gravity, or general relativity, to an unprecedented test.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/06/triple-star-system-einstein-theory-gravity_n_4550471.html

?

[anon8]

What is Christ trying to teach us? That we should love one another and should not sin. What is so objectionable about that? Let's even suppose that Christ was only a mythical figure that never existed. Wouldn't living by those rules make our world a better place? Of course this would mean sacrificing all the selfish indulgences that are so hard to resist. Much easier to reject the whole idea and carry on with our own selfish little lives where we make our own rules to suit ourselves.

Greed, lust, envy, pride, wrath, sloth, gluttony are the roots of all evil.

What is objectionable, is any religeon becomes a hate group sooner rather than later. You may recall good Christians burning their fellow men alive just few hundred years ago.

You asked what is objectionable? I say burning people Christians disagreed with, and countless other crimes and atrocities Christians have committed.

Christian hAte groups like Westboro Baptist Church are operating out in the open, taking cover and being protected by US Constitution freedom of speech amendment.

That is what is objectionable.

In broder terms, this whole cult is a hate group. Something like this can operate only in USA, in any other Western nation all members would be charged with hate crimes.

[notmyself]

What is Christ trying to teach us? That we should love one another and should not sin. What is so objectionable about that? Let's even suppose that Christ was only a mythical figure that never existed. Wouldn't living by those rules make our world a better place? Of course this would mean sacrificing all the selfish indulgences that are so hard to resist. Much easier to reject the whole idea and carry on with our own selfish little lives where we make our own rules to suit ourselves.

Greed, lust, envy, pride, wrath, sloth, gluttony are the roots of all evil.

What is objectionable, is any religeon becomes a hate group sooner rather than later. You may recall good Christians burning their fellow men alive just few hundred years ago.

You asked what is objectionable? I say burning people Christians disagreed with, and countless other crimes and atrocities Christians have committed.

Christian hAte groups like Westboro Baptist Church are operating out in the open, taking cover and being protected by US Constitution freedom of speech amendment.

That is what is objectionable.

In broder terms, this whole cult is a hate group. Something like this can operate only in USA, in any other Western nation all members would be charged with hate crimes.

If you continue to rant uncontrollably then this thread will be locked. Many of us have had and continue to have, a polite debate on it and that would be a shame if it were to end. Please, pretty please, formulate at least a half decent argument when you post.

Edited January 7, 2014 by notmyself

[Shancloudy]

This movie made me feel the presence of God. It really answered some great questions about Gods love for us.

A good movie may indicate a presence of good director, script, and actors.

What has god to do with a good movie?

Did you watch until the end? what's the message of the movie?

[Johnniey]

To be fair, the same thing could be said about the air that we breath and gravity but the difference is, we have other ways to test it is true other than by visual means. Any man on the street can put a bag over his/her head to test air or throw themselves out of a window to test gravity. Gravity often comes up because it too, like evolution, is only a theory.

Dude, are you gonna post anything of substance in this thread at all, or keep up with mumbo jumbo, post after post?

Now you claim gravity is only a theory!

Gravity is little bit more than a theory, dont you think? Well, you just said you dont.

Have you ever observed an object fall down? How can I make this simpler for you..?

Stuffs falls down not because of a theory, but because of gravity.

How is it possible that you do not realize that what you are saying is nonsensical, dumb crap?

Dude, when did you leave school?

[pastafarian]

Lets not forget that if child indoctrination was banned ( a socially accepted form of child abuse!) and people could decide which, if any, religion to follow when they are at or above the age of reason then religion would soon die out.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[canman]

Actually that wouold be "ever increasing gaps" as we know more questions to ask that we have no answers for than we once did - 5000BC it was "What is the sky?" "What is the sea?" "What are the stars/moon/sun?" etc - now it is "Why does there seem to be so much missing mass in the universe?" "Why do some particles have mass and others not?" "Where does Gravity get its energy from?" "How can entwined particles duplicate changes of spin over great distances instantly when the speed of light/infinite mass rule limits such communication?" and many, many, many more

The problem is that most people know a little about science - and they happily believe every scientific "fact" that comes to be known as true. This has the effect that most people seem to believe that we know almost everything now - but the truth is the opposite. Scientific process has lead us to ask deeper and deeper questions - and as we guess, and then try to prove that guess, and hopefully eventually do, it just uncovers the next layer of questions - and it is almost always a pyramidic decent (more questions the deeper we go). It took a long time to show any evidence of the Higgs Field which we needed for quite a lot of theories with respect to quarks, particles symmetry and mas, and so on - in 2012 the Higgs Boson (yep the God particle - thought it was apt ) being finally discovered put to bed many of those questions - but opened the door for the next layer. For example - when quarks were first postulated it was thought there were few of them - then as we discovered properties in the quarks, we found there were more - now there are hundreds - this is against the simplified model theory - that is, that as we learn more, we move towards fewer fundamental parts (such as elements) - but we end up with more particles than we can deal with and no evident sub-quark layer to account for all the types. A major upset - and still confusing scenario that is already being addressed by theorists. That crack gets ever more wider.

whether the gap between what we know and what we don't know is increasing, remains the same or is decreasing, is arguable and a subject for an other debate, what ever the gap was ,we were able to explain it with science in the past, now there are new gaps, but what ever the size of this new gap is it does not men that we need to fill it with magic, haven't we learned anything from the past?.

As far as the Highs Boson is concerned the coinage of the term "the god particle" is not apt at all and is not used by any credible scientists,

The story behind the name explained by a CERN spokesman:

"the real story behind this extremely unfortunate name "God Particle." As some of you may know, The God Particle is the title of a popular science book by Nobel Prize winner Leon Lederman, who was Fermilab's director for many years and thus my boss when I was a postdoctoral fellow there. According to Leon, he wanted to call the book The Goddamn Particlebecause nobody could find the thing. However, his editor discouraged him from the title, suggesting that The God Particle would sell many more copies. This is the story that Leon tells us."

Sure we could argue about gap sizes (I am right though - but never mind).

The "God Particle" being "apt" was a quip - I wasn't meaning it in a religious way, just an ironic one given the thread - and indeed it is mostly media that name it such (although it was called that originally (coined) by Prof. Leon Lederman of Nobel fame back in the early 90s.

Ah yes, you said as much in the rest of your post. It was tongue in cheek in my post as much as it was by Lederman.

The concept of "filling the gaps with magic" as you so eloquently put it (I mean that, I liked the turn of phrase ) is an interesting one. I was actually not attempting to do so, and do believe that most educated believers would not either. However, the same could be said with respect to science at that point - what is magic? something that can not be explained with science - ahem, I think the gaps just filled themselves with magic - its un-magic-ing that science does in fact

A scientifically educated believer - and do not make the mistake of thinking scientists are all atheists I can tell you that is most inaccurate - would say that all the science is "God's magic" - and at the base level, magic is pretty much what it is. We explain things based on other things we understand, which were based on...etc. Our understanding of the universe is tiny in fact - we only surmise what is out there by what we can see and understand here - and the odd particle we capture hurtling through space - most of the universe is well out of our reach or vision - no matter what the telescope of method we use (unless Einstein was wrong with the infinite mass problem) by the time it reaches us we will be dead (time to get to the other side of the universe (boundary) at the speed of light is greater than the time the universe is expected to exist for - let alone getting back!). Truth is most of our theories are based on such little evidence that if it was a statistical analysis it would be dumped in the bin. We do what we can to understand based on this knowledge and our creativity, but we can never really know if we know everything, because we simply aren't everywhere to know it. There is no true foundation in our science other than "belief" and that "it works when we test it" - just like Newton's theories did, until Einstein, now even E=MC^2 has been rewritten as E=M^2C^4+P^2C^2 - theories are changed and what we know to be "true" is only really, "close to true, perhaps".

E=M^2C^4+P^2C^2

Where did this come from? Has it been verified? Is this something to do with the possibility of neutrinos traveling faster than light? And finally what is P?

Seems a shame if such a simple eloquent equation such as E=MC2 is disproven.

[canman]

To be fair, the same thing could be said about the air that we breath and gravity but the difference is, we have other ways to test it is true other than by visual means. Any man on the street can put a bag over his/her head to test air or throw themselves out of a window to test gravity. Gravity often comes up because it too, like evolution, is only a theory.

Dude, are you gonna post anything of substance in this thread at all, or keep up with mumbo jumbo, post after post?

Now you claim gravity is only a theory!

Gravity is little bit more than a theory, dont you think? Well, you just said you dont.

Have you ever observed an object fall down? How can I make this simpler for you..?

Stuffs falls down not because of a theory, but because of gravity.

How is it possible that you do not realize that what you are saying is nonsensical, dumb crap?

You are not understanding the context of what is being said here. We all know things fall down and we can measure the force of attraction between two masses and we can measure acceleration of a falling body in a vacuum. We assign these numbers to something we call gravity. The theroy part is why are these numbers so, no one really knows yet. It is a huge hole in the modern understanding of physics as to what exactly this force we call gravity is. Billions have been spent building CERN so that high enough energies could be achieved to tease out the higgs bosun which is thought to give rise to a force we call gravity.

[Guest]

E=M^2C^4+P^2C^2

Where did this come from? Has it been verified? Is this something to do with the possibility of neutrinos traveling faster than light? And finally what is P?

Seems a shame if such a simple eloquent equation such as E=MC2 is disproven.

I guess it simply includes the momentum (p) of the mass to the total energy. Note that it's "E^2", not "E".

E^2 = (mc^2)^2 + p^2c^2

E=mc^2 or written in similar ways as above, E^2 = (mc^2)^2 is still valid for static mass.

I might be wrong, so correct me.

[sirineou]

E=M^2C^4+P^2C^2

Where did this come from? Has it been verified? Is this something to do with the possibility of neutrinos traveling faster than light? And finally what is P?

Seems a shame if such a simple eloquent equation such as E=MC2 is disproven.

Not just yet

The faster than light traveling neutrino was disproven, E=MC2 remains intact

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17560379

Edited January 8, 2014 by sirineou

[Maggusoil]

What is Christ trying to teach us? That we should love one another and should not sin. What is so objectionable about that? Let's even suppose that Christ was only a mythical figure that never existed. Wouldn't living by those rules make our world a better place? Of course this would mean sacrificing all the selfish indulgences that are so hard to resist. Much easier to reject the whole idea and carry on with our own selfish little lives where we make our own rules to suit ourselves.

Greed, lust, envy, pride, wrath, sloth, gluttony are the roots of all evil.

The Buddha was trying to teach us that 500 years before Christ was born. Leading an ethical life isn't confined to Christians. It isn't even confined to those who are religious.

This is an excellent point. Reiterating the obvious idea that people do not need religion to have ethics. Even animals and babies have observable ethics, often more than adults.

At the age of six I was introduced to religion at the English boarding school I attended. I immediately rejected that religion out of hand. I think that was a genetic problem I had with it.

Since then without going into the details I have seen God and experienced (it), seen and heard ghosts and witnessed what was for me a miracle, which saved my life in totally inexplicable circumstances. I have also left my body and experienced being in another body in another place and another time.

It seems that we have the capacity to experience more than the provable physical world we seem to live in.

Despite having experienced what I will call God for want of another word, I no longer desire to explain it to others, convince others of the validity of the experience, or work it into anything more meaningful to anyone else intellectually or spiritually and even to myself.

That would be a waste of time. The experience was mostly ecstatic and so has no relevance other than the remaining awareness that this, what I will call essence, exists in everything.

Having had the experience, I recognise that there is no way of proving the unprovable.

Has it im'proved' my life? I have no way of knowing.

The only meaningful things in my life are the love of some family members, some friends and my deceased dog.

My avatar is just a memory now. Beautiful guy. One of nature's gentlemen.

[Maggusoil]

Whatever else, this thread seems to have produced a miraculous quantity of opinions.

[pastafarian]

Morals pre-date religion! And christianity (and other religions) doesn't just teach love and not to sin etc, you also have to accept it encourages a lot of discrimination, bigotry, mysogyny and general judgemental, self-righteous behavior...Like I've said, people can be good without gods especially as they don't have a book of nonsensical fairy tales telling them what to do.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited January 8, 2014 by pastafarian

[bunnydrops]

I'm assuming we are talking about "god" in the form that man has made him. So if God is a being in human (or some other of the more creative forms) with nothing to do between thinking about his own existence but play Sim Earth, then Nope. But on the other hand, as I'm am told, life sprung from rocks for no apparent "reason", Molecules formed cells, that formed organs, that grouped together to form this "evolved" thinking? "mostly bag of water". To look around and wonder what the "hell' is this all about--for no apparent "reason". Then I have to wonder.

To quote R. Crumb's Mister Natural when asked "Whats It all mean?" his answer was "It don't mean shit!". Did he mean "It doesn't mean Anything" or "It doesn't mean Nothing. I guess you can put me down as a 5

.

[bundoi]

Morals pre-date religion! And christianity (and other religions) doesn't just teach love and not to sin etc, you also have to accept it encourages a lot of discrimination, bigotry, mysogony and general judgemental, self-righteous behavior...Like I've said, people can be good without gods especially as they don't have a book of nonsensical fairy tales telling them what to do.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Rastafarianism was recognised as a religion a few years back: I'm not sure but I believe they believe they are the lost tribe of Israel; and it's got something to do with Bob Marley, Haile Selassie, and Ganja.

But Pastafarianism !!!! What's that all about ???

Edited January 8, 2014 by bundoi

[pastafarian]

Morals pre-date religion! And christianity (and other religions) doesn't just teach love and not to sin etc, you also have to accept it encourages a lot of discrimination, bigotry, mysogony and general judgemental, self-righteous behavior...Like I've said, people can be good without gods especially as they don't have a book of nonsensical fairy tales telling them what to do.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Rastafarianism was recognised as a religion a few years back: I'm not sure but I believe they believe they are the lost tribe of Israel; and it's got something to do with Bob Marley, Haile Selassie, and Ganja.

But Pastafarianism !!!! What's that all about ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[pastafarian]

Morals pre-date religion! And christianity (and other religions) doesn't just teach love and not to sin etc, you also have to accept it encourages a lot of discrimination, bigotry, mysogony and general judgemental, self-righteous behavior...Like I've said, people can be good without gods especially as they don't have a book of nonsensical fairy tales telling them what to do.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Rastafarianism was recognised as a religion a few years back: I'm not sure but I believe they believe they are the lost tribe of Israel; and it's got something to do with Bob Marley, Haile Selassie, and Ganja.

But Pastafarianism !!!! What's that all about ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pastafarian

[canman]

Morals pre-date religion! And christianity (and other religions) doesn't just teach love and not to sin etc, you also have to accept it encourages a lot of discrimination, bigotry, mysogony and general judgemental, self-righteous behavior...Like I've said, people can be good without gods especially as they don't have a book of nonsensical fairy tales telling them what to do.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Rastafarianism was recognised as a religion a few years back: I'm not sure but I believe they believe they are the lost tribe of Israel; and it's got something to do with Bob Marley, Haile Selassie, and Ganja.

But Pastafarianism !!!! What's that all about ???

Your kidding; right?

You have never heard of the Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Ordinations are available here: http://www.venganza.org/about/

[bundoi]

Morals pre-date religion! And christianity (and other religions) doesn't just teach love and not to sin etc, you also have to accept it encourages a lot of discrimination, bigotry, mysogony and general judgemental, self-righteous behavior...Like I've said, people can be good without gods especially as they don't have a book of nonsensical fairy tales telling them what to do.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Rastafarianism was recognised as a religion a few years back: I'm not sure but I believe they believe they are the lost tribe of Israel; and it's got something to do with Bob Marley, Haile Selassie, and Ganja.

But Pastafarianism !!!! What's that all about ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pastafarian

Thanks :-) shortly after Rastafarianism was accepted as a religion it was the turn of Druidism ... now that's my type of religion... dancing naked around Stonehenge 5,000 years before Jehovah was born :-)

[nidieunimaitre]

Pastafarians have recently split up in Tomato Sauce and Cheese Sauce addepts.

Not unlike catholics/protestants, sunnie/shiite, budddhists etc.

This proves that Pastafarianism is now a well established religion - I can't wait for the spaghetti wars to begin.

[canman]

Pastafarians have recently split up in Tomato Sauce and Cheese Sauce addepts.

Not unlike catholics/protestants, sunnie/shiite, budddhists etc.

This proves that Pastafarianism is now a well established religion - I can't wait for the spaghetti wars to begin.

We carbonaraists are the only true followers; all others are heretics!