Major evidence that low carb diets not needed for long term weight loss/maintenance success

[chiang mai]

Screw the carbs, I'll have a kilo of whatever the previous poster is on.

[Jingthing]

...

The human body is something that we still don't understand.

...

You betcha!

But we're here now and trying to do the best we can!

[Jingthing]

Will you please quantify "low carb diet" in terms of numbers, carbs vs fat vs protein?

I can't do that.

Perhaps someone else can.

If you're asking about technical details from the outfit tracking the success cases, I can't do that either!

You can go to their web page though, and read the abstracts of their findings, but I don't think that kind of detail is there.

Obviously some people are consciously on low carb or no carb plans and they could self report that.

Personally, years ago, I tried a radical low carb plan myself for awhile from one of the popular fad books -- I really, really hated it, so I admit a personal bias. I also personally felt it was too high fat and maybe even dangerous.

I've done some radical stuff before like once I went on a very long fast, right now I forget how long but I think over a month, water only, where you enter kind of altered state of consciousness. I lost a MASSIVE amount of weight on that, and boy did it come back fast!

Edited January 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Screw the carbs, I'll have a kilo of whatever the previous poster is on.

Yeah, it was worth starting this thread just to see that funny stuff!

[A1Str8]

Will you please quantify "low carb diet" in terms of numbers, carbs vs fat vs protein?

The numbers differ with every individual. What you do is get online and use an online calculator to determine your daily calorie need based on age, current weight, physical activity etc. They are quite accurate. Then you determine how much protein you need daily using the same calculators and common sense. Then you determine your carb need based on the same things, it shouldn't be more then 150 grams per day. And the rest of you calories come from fat. The point is, you flip things. Instead of Consuming moderately high carbs and low fat, you start eating moderately high fat and low carb. It is going to cause a shift in your metabolism and from that moment on your body is going to utilize fat instead of carbohydrates as the main energy source. As a result you are going to lose fat for several reasons. First just the consumption of fat makes you lose fat as it requires more energy to brake down fat, so you burn more calories. Also, fat doesn't mess with your insulin like carbs do so there will be a steady flow of energy in your body instead of an insult spike followed by the ups and downs. It works long term, I know from experience.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[rijb]

Yes I agree. Strictly limiting carbs like processed bread, pasta, white rice, etc. is a no brainer. You want to make more of your carbs unprocessed type. Radical pretty much NO carb "diets" are another level, not for me.

It's a big pain. But, 'no carbs' (or as little as possible) worked for me.

PS: I've learned a lot from your threads. Keep up the good work.

[Jingthing]

Relating to the subject, the dramatic info about the long term successful people always eating breakfast.

I do as well.

I am happy with my breakfasts, mostly lowfat yogurt with limited non-sweet grains, chopped fruit, and some almonds.

I vary it sometimes with sardine or egg based breakfasts.

There was recently a report stating that people who eat EGGS for breakfast are less likely to fat.

This is different than weight loss success stories, similar to news saying people who eat NUTS are less likely to be fat.

Anyway, wondering, what are people doing about eggs for breakfast?

I know eggs are great nutrition, and have been getting much better press recently, but I am still afraid of eating too many of them.

Like two a day daily for breakfast still feels to me too many eggs.

I have one sometimes in other meals as well and they are used in many cooked dishes in restaurants as well.

BTW, to expand on my healthy fats comment before, like almonds, they are good for you but they are very caloric, so you really can't get away with eating too many of them!

Edited January 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[chiang mai]

The Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine suggests these guidelines for a healthy diet:

• Carbohydrates: 45 to 65 percent of total daily calories

• Fat: 20 to 35 percent of total daily calories

• Protein: 10 to 35 percent of total daily calories

Most folks who go low carb tend to increase their protein intake to compensate, I certainly did and that puts a strain on the kidneys, anyone going down this route should watch out for aches and pains in the lower back and sides and also have their renal function checked frequently - BUN levels become elevated quite quickly so there's a major warning there.

But the issue of "what is low carb" varies from person to person, clearly we can't sensibly go entirely no carb but if you're consuming 65% of your calories from carbs there's plenty of scope to downscale and consequently loose weight. But if your caloric intake from carbs is only 45% or less, what to do and exactly what are those fat heavy foods that will replace the carbs? From experience any trade off against carbs tends to involve a negative impact elsewhere, case in point is high protein and kidney dysfunction.

[rijb]

Poop'in ain't no fun neither!

Edited January 13, 2014 by rijb

[robblok]

Relating to the subject, the dramatic info about the long term successful people always eating breakfast.

I do as well.

I am happy with my breakfasts, mostly lowfat yogurt with limited non-sweet grains, chopped fruit, and some almonds.

I vary it sometimes with sardine or egg based breakfasts.

There was recently a report stating that people who eat EGGS for breakfast are less likely to fat.

This is different than weight loss success stories, similar to news saying people who eat NUTS are less likely to be fat.

Anyway, wondering, what are people doing about eggs for breakfast?

I know eggs are great nutrition, and have been getting much better press recently, but I am still afraid of eating too many of them.

Like two a day daily for breakfast still feels to me too many eggs.

I have one sometimes in other meals as well and they are used in many cooked dishes in restaurants as well.

BTW, to expand on my healthy fats comment before, like almonds, they are good for you but they are very caloric, so you really can't get away with eating too many of them!

I do take 3 eggs at times with some minced pork. Recent research shows that eggs are no longer a danger. So i just go with that.

The reason you lost loads of weight on no low carb is that you burned through your glycogen and that means you loose the water it holds. (loss of water-weight) . Later when you stop you refill the glycogen and get the water weight back. That is why it has to be about fat loss not weight loss.

I do believe that low carb has its thing.. it does work for some people real good and i have had good result with it but i have had good results with it especially when i was still insulin sensitive. This is gone now but i still think it has its purpose and things work for everyone different.

[A1Str8]

High protein doesn't cause the kidneys to dysfunction, only if you don't supply your body with enough liquid mainly in the form of water.

Also, it's all individualized. What is big meal for one man, might be snack for another.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jingthing]

Low carb is relative. I can't get behind NO CARB.

As I said, I take great care in limiting my portions of processed carbs, but carbs in things like vegetables, I can't believe they are harmful.

On eggs, yes of course some eggs are OK.

The question is it REALLY OK to eat 2 or 3 eggs every day!?!

[h90]

Relating to the subject, the dramatic info about the long term successful people always eating breakfast.

I do as well.

I am happy with my breakfasts, mostly lowfat yogurt with limited non-sweet grains, chopped fruit, and some almonds.

I vary it sometimes with sardine or egg based breakfasts.

There was recently a report stating that people who eat EGGS for breakfast are less likely to fat.

This is different than weight loss success stories, similar to news saying people who eat NUTS are less likely to be fat.

Anyway, wondering, what are people doing about eggs for breakfast?

I know eggs are great nutrition, and have been getting much better press recently, but I am still afraid of eating too many of them.

Like two a day daily for breakfast still feels to me too many eggs.

I have one sometimes in other meals as well and they are used in many cooked dishes in restaurants as well.

BTW, to expand on my healthy fats comment before, like almonds, they are good for you but they are very caloric, so you really can't get away with eating too many of them!

I try now, for the first time in my adult life to eat breakfast...today 2 eggs with onion, tomato and garlic. Tomorrow chicken breasts with whatever I find.

There is another theory that not having breakfast is useful, because over night the body switched to fat burning already and continues. I believe that also works.....When I lost fastest I ate only dinner and maybe a small protein shake at lunch. But that surely doesn't work as soon as you start to exercise seriously and even without I am not sure how long such extreme measures can be done....

[Jingthing]

...

The reason you lost loads of weight on no low carb is that you burned through your glycogen and that means you loose the water it holds. (loss of water-weight) . Later when you stop you refill the glycogen and get the water weight back. That is why it has to be about fat loss not weight loss.

...

So you have intimate knowledge of the inside of my body? So a non-doctor with info about me from a forum thinks he knows enough to talk so definitely about the nature of my weight loss. You don't really know what you just said. That's just some parroting back of something that you believe. I don't know where you got it, it might be true in some scenarios.

In any case, you have no idea the exact level of carbs I eat, and what kinds of carbs. You couldn't possibly know. Besides I haven't really lost loads of weight, it has been a very slow process over YEARS already. Even before I had started posting here I had a few years of very moderate weight loss due to health promoting eating and moderate exercise.

In future, please do not address me personally in that tone of authority. You don't have it. Nobody posting here does. I understand your intention probably wasn't to annoy, but I consider it disrespectful to be personally lectured that there is something defective about the nature of my weight loss on this forum by someone without any authority to do so.

It's also REALLY BIZARRE that in a thread which in the OP presented strong evidence that many long term successful weight losers/maintainers have done so on MODERATELY high carb programs, we hear from you basically an indictment of not going low carb.

In my view, the point of this thread was to suggest there is no one holy grail answer for everyone, and it is possible to achieve real success with low carb OR moderately high carb.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[h90]

High protein doesn't cause the kidneys to dysfunction, only if you don't supply your body with enough liquid mainly in the form of water. Also, it's all individualized. What is big meal for one man, might be snack for another. Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

There are a few studies from very extreme bodybuilder who ate complete crazy amounts of protein. No problem for the kidney as long as you drink enough. And the effect that at some point you can't eat more protein. It get total disgusting for you, up to vomit it.

(that was if I recall right, based on protein powder, extreme amounts of protein in form of meat may cause some other problems).

[h90]

self delete, because off topic

Edited January 13, 2014 by h90

[Jingthing]

Yes the general topic of fatness creates too many TRUE BELIEVERS.

(Replying now to a deleted message, oh well.)

Edited January 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[robblok]

...

The reason you lost loads of weight on no low carb is that you burned through your glycogen and that means you loose the water it holds. (loss of water-weight) . Later when you stop you refill the glycogen and get the water weight back. That is why it has to be about fat loss not weight loss.

...

So you have intimate knowledge of the inside of my body? So a non-doctor with info about me from a forum thinks he knows enough to talk so definitely about the nature of my weight loss. You don't really know what you just said. That's just some parroting back of something that you believe. I don't know where you got it, it might be true in some scenarios.

In any case, you have no idea the exact level of carbs I eat, and what kinds of carbs. You couldn't possibly know. Besides I haven't really lost loads of weight, it has been a very slow process over YEARS already. Even before I had started posting here I had a few years of very moderate weight loss due to health promoting eating and moderate exercise.

In future, please do not address me personally in that tone of authority. You don't have it. Nobody posting here does. I understand your intention probably wasn't to annoy, but I consider it disrespectful to be personally lectured that there is something defective about the nature of my weight loss on this forum by someone without any authority to do so.

It's also REALLY BIZARRE that in a thread which in the OP presented strong evidence that many long term successful weight losers/maintainers have done so on MODERATELY high carb programs, we hear from you basically an indictment of not going low carb.

In my view, the point of this thread was to suggest there is no one holy grail answer for everyone, and it is possible to achieve real success with low carb OR moderately high carb.

I made a few assumptions like that you were in a caloric deficit and that you kept to the real low carb diet.

Then its normal for the body to burn the last of the glycogen and switch over on ketones. Glycocen hold water.

This is a total plausible scenario and explains it all.. The moment you start to eat carbs again you hold water again.

Simple biology.

But i admit only try if you were in a caloric deficit and low enough carb.

[Jingthing]

That didn't make any sense.

On this thread, I mentioned three eating programs.

1. The one I am on now for a long time, which is NOT low carb. It is not high carb either. I thought you meant that because your original text said NO LOW CARB which I read as NOT low carb which could describe my current long term eating style.

2. A brief mention of a short period in the past where I tested an extreme fad low carb diet. I said NOTHING about losing any weight on that! I wasn't on it long and don't even remember. I don't like MAYONAISSE that much.

3. A brief mention of a long FAST of over one month where I did lose lots of weight and then of course gained it back quick. That wasn't a no carb diet. That was a NO NOTHING diet. Is that what you meant be a no carb diet? A fast? If so, why didn't you just use the word FAST. That is very specific -- FAST.

I am sorry about any confusion, but I'm still not clear on what you're talking about as I can only see what a person writes and not read minds.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[robblok]

JT a fast woudl produce the same result as no carbs .

I thought you said something about gong low carb and loosing a lot of weight.

But it works something like this the moment you go low carb you start to burn through your glycogen stores. Each gram of glycocen holds 4 grams of water. So depending on how much you store (obese and real muscular people have more as lean people). The more fast weight you loose.

The moment you start eating carbs again (and drinking water ect) you fill those stores again and gain weight back.

This is a reason why low carb diets and any diet restricting carbs start off fast.

It really was not my intention to insult you at all just telling a bit why low carb or fasts can show strange things weight wise.

That does not mean you can't loose weight on it, but the initial weight is often water weight.

I hope i made myself clear, my apologies if not.

Weight Loss

When calories are reduced, your body gets energy from its stores of glycogen, which are carbohydrates in your muscles and liver. Glycogen holds onto water, so when it's burned, it releases water and causes a loss of water weight. University of Illinois Extension states glycogen is the first to go with weight loss.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/307905-glycogen-and-weight-loss/

Edited January 13, 2014 by robblok

[Jingthing]

I mentioned the radical low carb diet and that I hated it.

I said nothing about losing weight on it or regain, just that I hated it.

I mentioned a fast, that was the one where I said I lost a lot of weight fast, and regained it fast.

It is not normal to call a fast a low carb diet. A fast is a fast.

Regrets that this misunderstanding occurred and my feelings got frayed. It sounded (as explained above) that you were disrespecting the nature of my weight loss on my very sensible CURRENT long term program.

Your apology is accepted.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Below something of someone much more eloquent as me

Water Balance

This is the easiest to explain so I’ll tackle it first. First note that water contains zero energy and zero calories. I can add a billion gallons of water to either side of the equation and it doesn’t affect the equation itself (quick note: some work suggested that ingestion of water, or cold water, could increase energy expenditure so that is an indirect way that water might impact on the equation, but this is not what I’m talking about).

However, water balance issues completely screw up expectations about changes in body mass. Every woman reading this knows that she can swing some amount of body weight (could be a couple pounds, could be 10 pounds) across a menstrual cycle and carbohydrate intake has a massive impact on water balance. But those changes don’t mean anything in terms of the energy balance equation.

Early studies of very-low carb diets (all discussed in detail in my first book The Ketogenic Diet) reported water loss ranging from like 1-15 pounds in the first few days. I’m fairly little and I can drop 7 lbs of water in 3 days of carbohydrate restriction (it comes right back with carb-loading).

Similarly, if you add a bunch of sodium to someone’s diet after a period of low-sodium intake, they will gain several pounds of water. But it doesn’t affect the energy balance equation in any way because water has no caloric/energy value.

I’ve talked about this on the site in various contexts, in the article Of Whooshes and Squishy Fat, I talk about how water retention can mask true fat loss in some people. The deficit is there, the activity is there and nothing is happening. Then boom, overnight, 5 pounds drops off. It’s not a thermodynamic miracle, nor does it defy the energy balance equation, water shifts just screw things up.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html

[Jingthing]

Yes, don't go on long fasts. That was crazy. I was young and living the bohemian beach town life in California. I could have easily killed myself. It was a spiritual experience though, nothing to do with food health, and I'm happy I had the experience because of that.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[robblok]

I mentioned the radical low carb diet and that I hated it.

I said nothing about losing weight on it or regain, just that I hated it.

I mentioned a fast, that was the one where I said I lost a lot of weight fast, and regained it fast.

It is not normal to call a fast a low carb diet. A fast is a fast.

Regrets that this misunderstanding occurred and my feelings got frayed. It sounded (as explained above) that you were disrespecting the nature of my weight loss on my very sensible CURRENT long term program.

Your apology is accepted.

No comments on your current weight-loss program you seem to be doing a good thing and are happy with it. How can i be negative on something that works for you.

A fast is a fast but does the same as low carb to the body. Makes the body use the glycogen with no way of replenishing it.

I also believe there is no holey grail in weight loss there are just many methods some that work beter as others but not all are suited for everyone. We just have to find what works for us.

The thing about breakfasts is something i read often ( i always take breakfast) but i often wondered by skipping it if i would not be better off (according to the research not )

[robblok]

Yes, don't go on long fasts. That was crazy. I was young and living the bohemian beach town life in California. I could have easily killed myself. It was a spiritual experience though, nothing to do with food health, and I'm happy I had the experience because of that.

Curious how long a fast ?

I never really fasted (gone a day without food on some drugs (not weightloss) when younger but that was it)

Going without food is hard for me.. only times it is not so hard when I am doing stuff like snorkeling, i can be in the water for hours and forget about eating and such. This wont happen of course if I am home as then I will be thinking of food on set times.

[Jingthing]

It was at least a month, perhaps even six weeks. Something in that range. I wasn't working but did manage to go out bike riding! When I did that, I remember thinking, this shouldn't be legal, because I was feeling kind of "high" from the process. Basically you're really hungry for the first days, your tongue gets all weird, and then you go into a NO HUNGER phase. I guess you're starting to starve to death. I can't believe I really did that, but I did! No supervision, only a book about it, but I remember you need to be careful eating foods again and start with liquids which I did. As weight loss it was a total disaster. After the fast, pretty much eating one normal meal and you'd gain 5 pounds. Pretty sure I gained back more than I lost super fast. Oh well ...

Edited January 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[chiang mai]

High protein doesn't cause the kidneys to dysfunction, only if you don't supply your body with enough liquid mainly in the form of water. Also, it's all individualized. What is big meal for one man, might be snack for another. Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Only true if followed in the short term, ample evidence now that longer term it has a negative effect on the renal system;

http://www.mayoclinic.org/high-protein-diets/expert-answers/FAQ-20058207

[A1Str8]

High protein doesn't cause the kidneys to dysfunction, only if you don't supply your body with enough liquid mainly in the form of water. Also, it's all individualized. What is big meal for one man, might be snack for another. Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Only true if followed in the short term, ample evidence now that longer term it has a negative effect on the renal system;

http://www.mayoclinic.org/high-protein-diets/expert-answers/FAQ-20058207

As you said..evidence now. That's what we pursue as truth now because they said it. They always come up with evidence to prove things. Then a bit later they come up with a different one, proving that they were previously wrong.

So there is no evidence, only talking.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[chiang mai]

High protein doesn't cause the kidneys to dysfunction, only if you don't supply your body with enough liquid mainly in the form of water. Also, it's all individualized. What is big meal for one man, might be snack for another. Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Only true if followed in the short term, ample evidence now that longer term it has a negative effect on the renal system;

http://www.mayoclinic.org/high-protein-diets/expert-answers/FAQ-20058207

As you said..evidence now. That's what we pursue as truth now because they said it. They always come up with evidence to prove things. Then a bit later they come up with a different one, proving that they were previously wrong.

So there is no evidence, only talking.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

They're your kidneys, do as you wish with them. All I can add is that I was diagnosed with a swelling on my left kidney (forget medical term and can't be arsed to look it up) following a lower carb/higer protein diet lasting about six months. The symptoms are an ache in lower back and decreased urine flow, higher BUN levels are also apparent, test is done by ultrasound exam. Not life threatening or even very dangerous as long as diet is changed but worrying at the time and inconvenient, the nephrologist confirmed diet as cause.

[Thai at Heart]

Relating to the subject, the dramatic info about the long term successful people always eating breakfast.

I do as well.

I am happy with my breakfasts, mostly lowfat yogurt with limited non-sweet grains, chopped fruit, and some almonds.

I vary it sometimes with sardine or egg based breakfasts.

There was recently a report stating that people who eat EGGS for breakfast are less likely to fat.

This is different than weight loss success stories, similar to news saying people who eat NUTS are less likely to be fat.

Anyway, wondering, what are people doing about eggs for breakfast?

I know eggs are great nutrition, and have been getting much better press recently, but I am still afraid of eating too many of them.

Like two a day daily for breakfast still feels to me too many eggs.

I have one sometimes in other meals as well and they are used in many cooked dishes in restaurants as well.

BTW, to expand on my healthy fats comment before, like almonds, they are good for you but they are very caloric, so you really can't get away with eating too many of them!

I saw this about eggs and how they somehow produce and maintain a feeling of a full stomach for a very long period.

And isn't it true. Scrambled eggs for breakfast and I can happily skip lunch or certainly don't feel like a large lunch.